Informed Attributes

[Angel Eyes]

So it’s an observation I’ve had throughout the run of Game of Thrones is that very few characters live up to the traits attributed to them.

• Sansa, Tyrion and Varys’ intelligence; Tyrion’s advice is ineffective, Varys doesn’t do his job as spymaster and propagandist once returning to Westeros, and Sansa needs Bran’s help to not have Arya killed.
• The loyalty of the Northern Lords; alluded to in Season 5 and then dropped like a hot potato from Season 6 onward
• The power of the Tyrells, who got their asses kicked in Season 7; makes one wonder why Tywin didn’t just force them to cough up
• The threat of the White Walkers, who are taken out with a single blow
• The badassery of the Golden Company; 20,000 men wiped off the map by one dragon
• The ferocity of the Dothraki, who are taken out quickly by the Army of the Dead

Is this a deliberate choice by Benioff and Weiss due to the deconstructive nature of both the books and show, or because they kinda forgot about what their characters are good at?

[Daemon of the Blacks]

Its not that they kinda forgot, but that depicting certain character traits was inconvenient for them. They had a certain end point in mind, a certain character to be the main villain and they had a Star Wars show to make...until they didn't. 

Cersei is incompetent and the Tyrels are one of the most powerful houses in the realm. However they also wanted to have Cersei be the main villain of the show and they wanted to give Danny a bloody nose. To make Cersei more powerful then she should logically be and to decrease the overwhelming advantage Danny has over her they just decided to sacrifice the Tyrels because that made it easier for Cersei to be a strong, imposing and suddenly extremely competent villain. 

The Golden company is the strongest mercenary army ever but they also just wanted to wrap the show up ASAP, so the Golden company is sacrificed to that end. 

The White Walkers are the main threat but they also found Cersei far more interesting so the White Walkers have to get defeated in a single episode so Cersei can take her rightful place as the main villain. To be fair the White Walkers do come off as really boring. 

 

[Angel Eyes]

On 5/6/2020 at 7:11 PM, Daemon of the Blacks said:

Its not that they kinda forgot, but that depicting certain character traits was inconvenient for them. They had a certain end point in mind, a certain character to be the main villain and they had a Star Wars show to make...until they didn't. 

Cersei is incompetent and the Tyrels are one of the most powerful houses in the realm. However they also wanted to have Cersei be the main villain of the show and they wanted to give Danny a bloody nose. To make Cersei more powerful then she should logically be and to decrease the overwhelming advantage Danny has over her they just decided to sacrifice the Tyrels because that made it easier for Cersei to be a strong, imposing and suddenly extremely competent villain. 

The Golden company is the strongest mercenary army ever but they also just wanted to wrap the show up ASAP, so the Golden company is sacrificed to that end. 

The White Walkers are the main threat but they also found Cersei far more interesting so the White Walkers have to get defeated in a single episode so Cersei can take her rightful place as the main villain. To be fair the White Walkers do come off as really boring. 

 

No excuse for Tyrion, Varys and Sansa though. Everybody talks about how smart they are, but they don't show it.

[Mystical]

33 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

No excuse for Tyrion, Varys and Sansa though. Everybody talks about how smart they are, but they don't show it.

Characters can only be as smart as the people writing them. Tyrion's and Varys' smarts were kind of there as long as D&D still had the books. In the end of S4 (see LF) and especially post-S4, there were no more smarts. Everything became an informed attribute. They also didn't care about character anymore, they just wanted to hit certain plots. Especially those that are shocking and/or cinematic.

Rape Sansa. Wight polar bear. Hardhome. Dead Jon. KitN. The Wall falling. The Wight hunt. The Frey slaughter. Blowing up the Sept...

There are so many more plots that made little sense and the characters are just plot points too.

[Nagini's Neville]

On 30. April 2020 at 8:03 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So it’s an observation I’ve had throughout the run of Game of Thrones is that very few characters live up to the traits attributed to them.

• Sansa, Tyrion and Varys’ intelligence; Tyrion’s advice is ineffective, Varys doesn’t do his job as spymaster and propagandist once returning to Westeros, and Sansa needs Bran’s help to not have Arya killed.
• The loyalty of the Northern Lords; alluded to in Season 5 and then dropped like a hot potato from Season 6 onward
• The power of the Tyrells, who got their asses kicked in Season 7; makes one wonder why Tywin didn’t just force them to cough up
• The threat of the White Walkers, who are taken out with a single blow
• The badassery of the Golden Company; 20,000 men wiped off the map by one dragon
• The ferocity of the Dothraki, who are taken out quickly by the Army of the Dead

Is this a deliberate choice by Benioff and Weiss due to the deconstructive nature of both the books and show, or because they kinda forgot about what their characters are good at?

IMO you can't write intelligent characters, if you aren't that clever yourself. And IMO the didn't even try. (GRRM says it takes him forever to come up with all of Tyrion's witty comebacks) They thought it was enough to tell the audience from time to time "Hey remember those characters here are actually really clever!"

Audience:" Um... Why?"

D&D: "BECAUSE WE SAID SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Mystical]

51 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Audience:" Um... Why?"

D&D: "BECAUSE WE SAID SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Audience: "We kinda forgot what you said."

D&D: "How could you? We are so freaking clever!!!"

Audience: "Yeah, nope. Stupid hurts one's brain...so we tuned you out whenever you started talking."

[winter daughter]

The decline of Sansa's character started as early as S3 imo. They never had a good understanding of her and her arc unfortunately.

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

The decline of Sansa's character started as early as S3 imo. They never had a good understanding of her and her arc unfortunately.

I already disliked how they portrayed her in S1. I think the actress is great. But they portayed her as modern bratty teenage girl. And she wasn't like that at all in the book. Most of her conflict was with Arya and she had the occasional tantrum in front of Ned and her Septa as well (IMO understandable, because joffrey wasn't only a silly crush, but was connected to her whole future) and she had the occasional ignorant or spoiled thought- but there is a big difference between what you think and how you actually behave and Sansa was never ever rude or disrespectful to her Septa or other authority figures. Her courtesy and obedience towards authority figures is part of the reason why she is able to survive KL, but also at times is a major disadvantage for her and does her harm (Tyrion, LF) and it's something she'll have to learn to overcome in the future. In the show she treats her Septa like her servant at times, while in the books she is never rude to her, she is like a second mother to her and she models a lot of her beliefs and behavior after her Septa's teachings and constantly seeks out her approval. 

What annoys me the most is that they left out the theme of the true knight and what that truly means to Sansa. It's all connected to her morality and world view and her identity as a human being, which never really changes throughout the books.

I understand, if they didn't want to include the dynamic with the Hound, but they should have at least found a substitute then and let her actually talk about those issues or just get rid of all the problematic elements and still have the Hound and Sansa talk about true knighthood and their world views. It was an essential element of both of their characters. If you don't include it you rob both of their characters of a certain depth.

And IMO that Sansa keeps on believing in the possibility of the true knight and the goodness in people will be the reason she could make and excellent ruler in the future, additional to actually getting a political training arc.

D&D apparently think you get exceptionally smart and a great ruler by being raped and tortured a lot- very disrespectful to people, who've experienced similar.

[Nagini's Neville]

18 hours ago, Mystical said:

Rape Sansa. Wight polar bear. Hardhome. Dead Jon. KitN. The Wall falling. The Wight hunt. The Frey slaughter. Blowing up the Sept...

There are so many more plots that made little sense and the characters are just plot points too.

D1: "So how are we going the finish this whole thing now, that there are no more books?"

D2: "As long as we're subverting expectations, it doesn't matter what we do. Audiences are really dumb these days, they'll accept anything."

D1: "Really? That's dope man!"

D2:" You didn't expect it?- It's a good thing"

D1: "you're so smart" *fist bump*LOL

[winter daughter]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I already disliked how they portrayed her in S1. I think the actress is great. But they portayed her as modern bratty teenage girl.

Very true. I kinda forgot about the spoiled brat S1 Sansa Iirc S2 was probably her best season.

I guess “courtesy is a lady's armour” which is a fundamental part of book Sansa's characteristic was not badass enough to keep in the show.

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

If you don't include it you rob both of their characters of a certain depth.

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And IMO that Sansa keeps on believing in the possibility of the true knight and the goodness in people will be the reason she could make and excellent ruler in the future, additional to actually getting a political training arc.

Exactly. But again bitter and cold is much more badass than gentle and charming.

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

D&D apparently think you get exceptionally smart and a great ruler by being raped and tortured a lot- very disrespectful to people, who've experienced similar.

I completely gave up on them after what they did to her in S5, I knew nothing good was gonna come out of that messed up storyline. The only reason I kept watching was because of the possible book spoilers and ending.

[Mystical]

37 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

Very true. I kinda forgot about the spoiled brat S1 Sansa Iirc S2 was probably her best season.

Sansa was barely in S2, maybe that's why. She would be gone for episodes and only pop up to be beaten in front of court, have a drive by with random pop up maidens (4-5 of them) and almost get gang raped by a hungry mob. The only bright spot was Blackwater. And in the episode after LittleFinger corners her and basically says 'What little story you had this Season was pointless. Psych!!!'

41 minutes ago, winter daughter said:

I guess “courtesy is a lady's armour” which is a fundamental part of book Sansa's characteristic was not badass enough to keep in the show.

I'm willing to bet any amount of money that if it were up to D&D, Sansa would have died early. Soft power is not something D&D even remotely begin to understand, I think they don't even know what it is. All they were interested in was torturing her. It must have killed them not being able to put Sansa's daily beatings on screen.

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Sansa was barely in S2, maybe that's why. She would be gone for episodes and only pop up to be beaten in front of court, have a drive by with random pop up maidens (4-5 of them) and almost get gang raped by a hungry mob. The only bright spot was Blackwater. And in the episode after LittleFinger corners her and basically says 'What little story you had this Season was pointless. Psych!!!'

I'm willing to bet any amount of money that if it were up to D&D, Sansa would have died early. Soft power is not something D&D even remotely begin to understand, I think they don't even know what it is. All they were interested in was torturing her. It must have killed them not being able to put Sansa's daily beatings on screen.

I imagine they wanted to  depict much more graphically, the things that Ramsay did to Sansa, such as "cutting", but the backlash to her rape deterred them.

[winter daughter]

4 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Sansa was barely in S2, maybe that's why.

Tbh I don't remember much because I've watched the seasons only once and S2 a long time ago.

11 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I'm willing to bet any amount of money that if it were up to D&D, Sansa would have died early. Soft power is not something D&D even remotely begin to understand, I think they don't even know what it is. All they were interested in was torturing her. It must have killed them not being able to put Sansa's daily beatings on screen.

But without Littlefinger and Ramsay and the rest, she would have stayed a little bird all her life.

[Mystical]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I imagine they wanted to  depict much more graphically, the things that Ramsay did to Sansa, such as "cutting", but the backlash to her rape deterred them.

Can't really see how. Since the Season had long finished shooting by the time the episode came out. So unless they shot stuff that after the backlash HBO was like 'OMG, cut, cut' out of the remaining episodes, they never planned to. The only scene we got is with Sansa in the white nighty (wth btw who wears that in that world) with artistically placed bruises.

I'm not sure they would have gone there for 2 reasons. They've already spend an entire Season showing us the torture of Theon and people complained about it. The other reason is the trite and true Hollywood mantra, you can make a guy bleed and scar them up, that's sexy and gives them character. You can't ugly up the women.

Then there is also the age factor. It's not like these are guys who shy away from showing rape on screen. However Sophie was barely legal and Sansa was like 15 when the whole Ramsey crap went down. Showing a 15 year old, especially a girl, constantly raped and/or tortured on screen? D&D might as well have signed their death warrant.

[Ghostlydragon]

29 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Can't really see how. Since the Season had long finished shooting by the time the episode came out. So unless they shot stuff that after the backlash HBO was like 'OMG, cut, cut' out of the remaining episodes, they never planned to. The only scene we got is with Sansa in the white nighty (wth btw who wears that in that world) with artistically placed bruises.

I'm not sure they would have gone there for 2 reasons. They've already spend an entire Season showing us the torture of Theon and people complained about it. The other reason is the trite and true Hollywood mantra, you can make a guy bleed and scar them up, that's sexy and gives them character. You can't ugly up the women.

Then there is also the age factor. It's not like these are guys who shy away from showing rape on screen. However Sophie was barely legal and Sansa was like 15 when the whole Ramsey crap went down. Showing a 15 year old, especially a girl, constantly raped and/or tortured on screen? D&D might as well have signed their death warrant.

I imagine they wanted to do all that but it was one of the times HBO put their foot down and said no.