Targaryen Marriages After the Dance

[The Bard of Banefort]

Since Fire and Blood ends with Aegon III turning 16 and ending his regency, there is still much we don't know about the Targaryens after the Dance. I find the marriages of Aegon's and Viserys' children to be rather odd, and was wondering what your thoughts are on how and why they came to be.

Viserys had three children: Aegon > Aemon > Naerys

Aegon III had five children, all of whom were younger than Viserys' children: Daeron > Baelor > Daena > Rhaena > Eleana

According to wiki, Daeron was five years younger than Naerys. Aegon IV and Naerys were married in 153 AC, when he was 18 and she was 15. Daena and Baelor were married in 160 AC, when she was fifteen and he was sixteen. Daeron did not die until a year later, in 161 AC.

Now here's the question: why were these disastrous marriages made in the first place? I'm going to assume that Viserys arranged both of them. The Targaryens married their kin to "keep the blood pure," but with eight of them in one generation, there were plenty of options. Daeron was the Aegon III's eldest child, and was king at the time of Baelor and Daena's wedding, yet he died a bachelor (and we were told that Daena idolized him). It sounds like Aegon IV and Naerys never got along, and with three female Targaryen cousins, it's hard to understand why he wasn't married off to any of them instead. 

One theory I'm considering is that perhaps Viserys was hoping that Naerys and Baelor could "tame" their headstrong spouses, who caused their family so much scandal. (If so, it failed spectacularly). I've also seen it argued that the sibling marriages could have been a way of showing that the Targaryens were still exceptional even without their dragons. This wouldn't explain why Daena was married to Baelor instead of Daeron, although I suppose Daeron could have been planning to marry a Dornishwoman as a way of solidifying the conquest.

Yet despite insisting on a marriage between Naerys and Aegon, Viserys was somehow okay with his younger son taking the lifetime position of a kingsguard. I suppose it could have been like with Jaime, where his father didn't find out until it was too late, but judging by Aegon and Viserys' close relationship, and Viserys basically running King's Landing anyway, this seems unlikely. But then again, maybe Aemon and Naerys were less like Jaime and Cersei and more like Loras and Margaery. Perhaps instead of being in love with Naerys, Aemon just wasn't into women, period. (Which would make Aegon IV's slander even more petty and vindictive).

There are lots of possibilities. What are your thoughts?

[The Young Maester]

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One theory I'm considering is that perhaps Viserys was hoping that Naerys and Baelor could "tame" their headstrong spouses, who caused their family so much scandal. (If so, it failed spectacularly). I've also seen it argued that the sibling marriages could have been a way of showing that the Targaryens were still exceptional even without their dragons. This wouldn't explain why Daena was married to Baelor instead of Daeron, although I suppose Daeron could have been planning to marry a Dornishwoman as a way of solidifying the conquest.

These two theory’s are what round it up for me.

-Viserys’s attempt at taming the two wild targaryens.

-And the sibling-marriages in order to show everyone they’re still the Targaryens of old. 

The latter is the most likely one.

But honestly it wouldve been best if they married cousin with cousin. It wouldve united the lines of Aegon and Viserys. 

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Since Fire and Blood ends with Aegon III turning 16 and ending his regency, there is still much we don't know about the Targaryens after the Dance. I find the marriages of Aegon's and Viserys' children to be rather odd, and was wondering what your thoughts are on how and why they came to be.

That is an interesting question.

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Viserys had three children: Aegon > Aemon > Naerys

Aegon III had five children, all of whom were younger than Viserys' children: Daeron > Baelor > Daena > Rhaena > Eleana

According to wiki, Daeron was five years younger than Naerys. Aegon IV and Naerys were married in 153 AC, when he was 18 and she was 15. Daena and Baelor were married in 160 AC, when she was fifteen and he was sixteen. Daeron did not die until a year later, in 161 AC.

My personal guess about the setting at this point is that Aegon III is going to grant Viserys Dragonstone as his princely seat - so that he has lordship of his he can leave to his sons (Aegon and Aemon were born during the Regency, after all). This, in turn, might cause Viserys to ensure that his line of House Targaryen is continued.

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Now here's the question: why were these disastrous marriages made in the first place? I'm going to assume that Viserys arranged both of them. The Targaryens married their kin to "keep the blood pure," but with eight of them in one generation, there were plenty of options. Daeron was the Aegon III's eldest child, and was king at the time of Baelor and Daena's wedding, yet he died a bachelor (and we were told that Daena idolized him). It sounds like Aegon IV and Naerys never got along, and with three female Targaryen cousins, it's hard to understand why he wasn't married off to any of them instead. 

I don't think Viserys had any hand in the marriages of Aegon III's children. The Baelor-Daena betrothal would be something Aegon III and Queen Daenaera arranged before the king's death. I also imagine that it might turn out that Daeron I was either married (there being another retcon) or betrothed to a younger daughter of Alyn and Baela. Daeron's mother, Queen Daenaera, was a Velaryon by birth and had been Alyn's and Baela's ward until she married King Aegon III. It is very likely she would have liked it if another Velaryon became the queen at the side of her eldest son. In addition, we know that Alyn Velaryon was the main architect of the Conquest of Dorne, meaning that he certainly would have the weight to convince the king to marry one of his daughters. The eldest we already met, the second Laena Velaryon, would have been far too old for Daeron. But with Alyn making those six voyages, he and Baela might be apart for years, meaning their younger children could be born around the time Daeron and Baelor and their sisters are born. If Daeron's betrothed were, say, 3-4 years younger than him this could explain why there wasn't a wedding throughout his reign.

I don't think it makes sense that Daena would have married Baelor - and would have married before King Daeron I himself - if the king hadn't at least had a betrothal at the time. Nor do I see Daeron I himself or Viserys as his Hand force Baelor and Daena into a marriage they did not want.

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One theory I'm considering is that perhaps Viserys was hoping that Naerys and Baelor could "tame" their headstrong spouses, who caused their family so much scandal. (If so, it failed spectacularly). I've also seen it argued that the sibling marriages could have been a way of showing that the Targaryens were still exceptional even without their dragons. This wouldn't explain why Daena was married to Baelor instead of Daeron, although I suppose Daeron could have been planning to marry a Dornishwoman as a way of solidifying the conquest.

Viserys likely wanted his eldest son to marry his only sister because he decided that Aegon would continue his branch of House Targaryen. That they arranged a sibling match rather than a cousin match (which could have worked with the second Laena Velaryon marrying Aegon, considering they are about the same age) seems to be a sign that the Targaryens would continue to keep their blood pure. And I think that remained the dominant policy even during the reign of Daeron II - I expect quite a few of his sons to have married Targaryen cousins through the female line. Daeron-Myriah and Daenerys-Maron would be expections, not the new rule. If all of Daeron II's sons had married unrelated spouses, it is very odd that the incest thing returned with the Aegon-Daella betrothal, the Aelor-Aelora match, and Aerion marrying Daenora.

One would then even wonder how the hell Jaehaerys II could have developed the then very freakish notion of marrying his own sister.

I think if Daeron I had wanted to marry a Dornishwoman we would have already heard about that. In fact, such a marriage would have likely taken place since there seems to have been peace for half a year or more before the upraising began. And such a wedding would then have been part of the agreement reached when the Martells and the other Dornish lords surrendered.

I think the idea might come up, but Daeron's bad judgment seen in making Lord Tyrell the ruler of Dorne indicates that he had no intention to include the Martells or any other great Dornish house in the new regime he would install there. Rather the opposite, actually. Rewarding a Dornishwoman by making her queen would be very odd in such a case.

9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yet despite insisting on a marriage between Naerys and Aegon, Viserys was somehow okay with his younger son taking the lifetime position of a kingsguard. I suppose it could have been like with Jaime, where his father didn't find out until it was too late, but judging by Aegon and Viserys' close relationship, and Viserys basically running King's Landing anyway, this seems unlikely. But then again, maybe Aemon and Naerys were less like Jaime and Cersei and more like Loras and Margaery. Perhaps instead of being in love with Naerys, Aemon just wasn't into women, period. (Which would make Aegon IV's slander even more petty and vindictive).

There are lots of possibilities. What are your thoughts?

I expect Viserys to have been not that happy with Aemon's decision. But he was a second son and of the younger branch of House Targaryen, with Daeron, Baelor, (possibly the girls,) and Aegon standing between him and the Iron Throne. Removing this prince from the line of succession by allowing him to joing the Kingsguard and have a Targaryen eventually run the order wouldn't have looked as a bad idea at the time.

Unlike Jaime, Aemon was nobody's heir.

I don't expect that Naerys and Aemon were romantically in love ... if they had been, their father may have allowed them to marry each other. Instead, one imagines, Aemon merely opposed the idea that Naerys had to marry Aegon.

I'd also expect that by the time of the marriage of Aegon-Naerys the matches for the elder children of Aegon III were already made, i.e. the Baelor-Daena match as well as my hypothetical idea of a match between Daeron and a daughter of Baela and Alyn. If this hadn't been the case then it would be very odd that the king and queen allowed Viserys to marry his children to each other while it wasn't clear who the heirs of the king would marry. Because Naerys would also have been a fine match for Daeron. She may have been five years older than Daeron, but Aegon was also three years older than her, so there could have been some discussion over the match.

In fact, it might be interesting to see how George plays this thing with there being two branches of the house where cousin marriages could help to tie the family closer together. Does this come up, or do they prefer insular sibling incest marriages whenever possible? Alysanne took a different route with Aemon and Jocelyn, but that seems to have been an exception. In the prelude to the Dance nobody seems to have thought about marrying cousins to cousins to overcome the problems the parents had (Jaehaera could have been offered to Aegon the Younger or Joffrey; somebody could have tried to marry Helaena to Jacaerys, Lucerys, or even Joffrey).

[The hairy bear]

The marriage of Aegon and Naerys in 153 makes sense, from the perspective of their father. We are told that he discovered that Aegon had Falena Stokeworth as mistress in 151, and although he managed to remove her from court and send her to Harrenhal, Aegon kept visiting her. It was even rumored that he was the father of some of Lord Lothston's children. Aegon was already 18, and Viserys would think that he needed to marry Aegon asap. His cousins were not an option (Daena was only 8 at the time), so Naerys would be the the only appropriate wife for him (the fact that they couldn't stand each other wouldn't be a factor in the mind of the cold, detached man Viserys had became after his wife abandoned him)

It's harder to explain why would Daeron force Baelor to marry Daena, while he remained unmarried. The possible explanations I've seen tossed around are:

• He was engaged to someone else who was younger than him, and was waiting her to turn 16 to celebrate the wedding.
• Daeron may have intended to cement the conquest of Dorne by marrying Mariah Martell. Since she was the heiress of the Prince of Dorne, marrying her would have ensured that Dorne was integrated into the realm.
• He was just uninterested in marriage, and couldn't be bothered with it. Either because she was gay, or because war was his only interest.
• The (kinda crackpot) Viserys conspiracy theory: Viserys wanted his own line to inherit the throne, so he convinced Daeron to embark on risky wars on Dorne, while brokering a marriage between the other son and the eldest daughter that he was sure it wouldn't produce offspring.

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

The marriage of Aegon and Naerys in 153 makes sense, from the perspective of their father. We are told that he discovered that Aegon had Falena Stokeworth as mistress in 151, and although he managed to remove her from court and send her to Harrenhal, Aegon kept visiting her. It was even rumored that he was the father of some of Lord Lothston's children. Aegon was already 18, and Viserys would think that he needed to marry Aegon asap. His cousins were not an option (Daena was only 8 at the time), so Naerys would be the the only appropriate wife for him (the fact that they couldn't stand each other wouldn't be a factor in the mind of the cold, detached man Viserys had became after his wife abandoned him)

That could explain why Viserys wanted Aegon to marry, but not necessarily why he chose Naerys. As I pointed out above, the second Laena Velaryon is also of Aegon's age and would also have made a proper bride. The sibling incest thing indicates that Viserys (and the king) wanted to continue proper Targaryen traditions.

21 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

It's harder to explain why would Daeron force Baelor to marry Daena, while he remained unmarried. The possible explanations I've seen tossed around are:

• He was engaged to someone else who was younger than him, and was waiting her to turn 16 to celebrate the wedding.

That is my best guess here.

21 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

• Daeron may have intended to cement the conquest of Dorne by marrying Mariah Martell. Since she was the heiress of the Prince of Dorne, marrying her would have ensured that Dorne was integrated into the realm.

I doubt that Myriah Martell would even be remotely suitable as a bride for Daeron I considering she married Daeron II. She must have been pretty close in age to Daeron II or else that marriage wouldn't have happened. Daeron I is ten years older than Daeron II.

21 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

• He was just uninterested in marriage, and couldn't be bothered with it. Either because she was gay, or because war was his only interest.

George has said Daeron I isn't gay when I asked him about that. But he also said in the same answer that the guy was married, so perhaps he is going to turn out to be gay after all. I personally would actually prefer a retcon there so that Daeron I is going to turn out to be married to a Velaryon cousin and even has a posthumous daughter who could end up marrying into House Baratheon (to help with those freakish claims Renly made about elder daughters).

21 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

• The (kinda crackpot) Viserys conspiracy theory: Viserys wanted his own line to inherit the throne, so he convinced Daeron to embark on risky wars on Dorne, while brokering a marriage between the other son and the eldest daughter that he was sure it wouldn't produce offspring.

That doesn't really make much sense. The thing that ended Baelor's line wasn't the marriage but the annullment and the subsequent decision of the king to take the vows of a septon. And all that would have caused a considerable scandal and a problem for the stability of the monarchy. This is not something a guy running the kingdom could want. Not to mention that Viserys could have very easily done away with Baelor while the man 'recovered' from the viper bites.

The really interesting issue there is how the succession thing was dealt with after Baelor took his vows and closed the door to the possibility of there being legitimate heirs of his body.

King Aerys I had to rule on his own succession four times. It is actually inconceivable that Baelor's succession wasn't decided long before the man died. Viserys I had to rule on his succession in 105 AC, Aegon III's succession was discussed mutliple times during his minority, Jaehaerys I's succession was discussed in his minority and when his sons died, etc.

Baelor's succession would have been very clearly unclear from the moment he closed the door on the prospect of future marriages. Meaning Viserys should have been the Heir Apparent from that point on. There is still potential for a discussion after the death of the king, but things should have been very clear before that. Unless Baelor had the weird notion that his sister should succeed him ... but that's extremely unlikely, especially after she produced that bastard.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

 

• Daeron may have intended to cement the conquest of Dorne by marrying Mariah Martell. Since she was the heiress of the Prince of Dorne, marrying her would have ensured that Dorne was integrated into the realm.
• He was just uninterested in marriage, and couldn't be bothered with it. Either because she was gay, or because war was his only interest.

When we last spoke to George on these matters, some variation on one of these two (a plan for a Dornish marriage or simply a lack of interest or at least a lack of a sense of urgency in marrying) seemed to be where he was leaning.

ETA: None of the family trees we've seen over the last 15+ years have ever shown Daeron wed, as well, so no idea whom he might have been considering for a wife in that brief period where he thought he was married. I suspect he had no one in particular in mind, and it was all rather nebulous.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Thanks for all the great replies! Does anyone else think that Aemon may have been gay? It's something I've been considering for a while now, although there's admittedly not much supporting evidence beyond the question of why he joined the kingsguard in the first place.

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, Ran said:

When we last spoke to George on these matters, some variation on one of these two (a Dornish marriage or simply a lack of interest or at least a lack of a sense of urgency in marrying) seemed to be where he was leaning.

ETA: None of the family trees we've seen over the last 15+ years have ever shown Daeron wed, as well, so no idea whom he might have been considering for a wife in that brief period where he thought he was married. I suspect he had no one in particular in mind, and it was all rather nebulous.

Well, I guess the moment when he is going to tackle those issues for good will be when he really writes FaB II since it stands to reason that things like the first Daenerys and the changed birth order of Jaehaerys' children grew out of the necessity of the story he wanted to tell - the Shivers as a great plague as well as the failed Vaegon-Daella betrothal.

There should be much story potential within the framework of the Conquest of Dorne as well as the reign of Aegon III.

Do you guys have any further insight into the Targaryen-Velaryon and Targaryen-Hightower offspring? For instance, what the plans for the second Laena Velaryon are or whether Baela's second child is going to be male or female? Those things would have to be tackled as well.

12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Thanks for all the great replies! Does anyone else think that Aemon may have been gay? It's something I've been considering for a while now, although there's admittedly not much supporting evidence beyond the question of why he joined the kingsguard in the first place.

I'd be surprised if that was the case.

[Vaith]

15 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Thanks for all the great replies! Does anyone else think that Aemon may have been gay? It's something I've been considering for a while now, although there's admittedly not much supporting evidence beyond the question of why he joined the kingsguard in the first place.

I view Aemon as having a love for Naerys that is not perhaps unrequited but was forbidden due to her marrying Aegon. I do not think they ever reciprocated it unlike those anti-Daeron II smears (Naerys was extremely religious, Aemon very chivalrous) but once Naerys wed her other brother, Aemon knew he wouldn't love someone else and so joined the Kingsguard.

Similar to Bonifer Hasty in the main story, who loved Rhaella, but stayed unmarried and devoted himself to religion after she wed Aerys II.

[The Bard of Banefort]

16 minutes ago, Vaith said:

I view Aemon as having a love for Naerys that is not perhaps unrequited but was forbidden due to her marrying Aegon. I do not think they ever reciprocated it unlike those anti-Daeron II smears (Naerys was extremely religious, Aemon very chivalrous) but once Naerys wed her other brother, Aemon knew he wouldn't love someone else and so joined the Kingsguard.

Similar to Bonifer Hasty in the main story, who loved Rhaella, but stayed unmarried and devoted himself to religion after she wed Aerys II.

Good analogy with Bonifer Hasty. I've always wondered what he really thinks of Jaime. Does he hate Jaime for helping take down the Targaryens, or is he secretly grateful that he killed Rhaella's abusive husband?

[The hairy bear]

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I doubt that Myriah Martell would even be remotely suitable as a bride for Daeron I considering she married Daeron II. She must have been pretty close in age to Daeron II or else that marriage wouldn't have happened.

Why do you think Daeron II and Myriah "must have been" close in age? It was a political marriage, brokered as a part of a peace negotiation. And we've seen plenty of marriages with huge age differences take place.

A Myriah (say) six years younger than Daeron I and four years older than Daeron II would fit nicely as bride of either.

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't really make much sense.

That's the thing with crackpot theories, isn't it?

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

Why do you think Daeron II and Myriah "must have been" close in age? It was a political marriage, brokered as a part of a peace negotiation. And we've seen plenty of marriages with huge age differences take place.

A Myriah (say) six years younger than Daeron I and four years older than Daeron II would fit nicely as bride of either.

But wouldn't they have married earlier then? Wouldn't have Myriah's first son been born much sooner?

The idea of a Dornish bride for Daeron I could really make a good story if they actually did marry and had a child. Such a daughter would be even more quickly pushed aside than a non-Dornish child in light of the fact that her family would have likely played a role in the murder of her father. There is no chance that somebody like that would be allowed to take the throne.

But overall the problem here is not so much Daeron not marrying, it is Daeron not marrying while Baelor and Daena marry. If the king is not concerned with getting himself a wife and children why should he force his siblings to move forward in that department? Especially two siblings who are not exactly suited for marriage in general or each other?

That is the real mystery there.

There was literal no need to rush things in the potential heirs department. Daeron I had four siblings, an uncle, and two first cousins to succeed him, not to mention his Targaryen-Velaryon and Targaryen-Hightower kin. In fact, if you think about it, Daeron I had more potential heirs around as Jaehaerys I in his last years (who had only four grandchildren and three great-grandchildren). Daeron I has seven Targaryen relations, six Hightower cousins, and an unknown number of Velaryon cousins as heirs.

The story as it is going to be told has to address the issue of Baelor being Daeron I in the marriage department.

[The hairy bear]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But wouldn't they have married earlier then? Wouldn't have Myriah's first son been born much sooner?

Baelor Breakspear was born on 169, meaning that Daeron II sired him when he was 14. I don't think there's much margin for an earlier marriage or birth here, regardless of Myriah's age.

 

 

[The Grey Wolf]

@The hairy bear

Daeron II was 16, not 14. (Baelor was born in 170 AC and his father in 153 AC.)

[The hairy bear]

@The Grey Wolf

 As per TWOIAF, Daeron II was born in the last day of 153. That means that for all purposes, he was 0 years old during the entire year 154, 1 year old in 155, and so on. On 169 he would be 15.

The wiki seems to confirm that your 170 birth date for Baelor is more likely than 169. That would mean Daeron was 15 when siring Baelor.

[The Grey Wolf]

@The hairy bear

I forgot he was born on the last day of the year. GRRM likes his royals young it would seem. That or he can't math...

[Lord Varys]

As per the MUSH we have Myriah Martell's year of birth as 150 AC - that would make her seven years younger than Daeron I, and thus an unlikely match in my opinion. Daeron I conquered Dorne, he didn't win it by means of a treaty nor did he sugarcoat the fact that he was the master and the Dornish his subjects and servants. He did install Lord Tyrell as governor in Dorne, after all, and Myriah would have been a nine-year-old when Daeron I was sixteen.

@Ran has told us that he cannot say what's from George and what's from the creators of the game, but I'm not sure whether that extends to the birth years of characters definitely created by George. Can you tell us whether the birth year of 150 AC comes from George?

For what it's worth, there is another Martell princess in the MUSH who would fit such a role better - Maron and Myriah's aunt, Princess Ariana Martell, born in 145 AC, who was once a hostage at KL. She would be a better candidate for a potential Martell betrothed (or queen) of Daeron I.

And rereading the house entries there: I'd be surprised if the Dornish actually used the title 'Lord Protector of Dorne' for a regent ruling the land in the name of a Prince. Dorne is separate realm, unconquered at the time, and there is no reason to believe they would keep the same offices as the other kingdoms do - before or after the Targaryen Conquest -, nor use the same names for the same or similar offices.

[Vaith]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As per the MUSH we have Myriah Martell's year of birth as 150 AC - that would make her seven years younger than Daeron I, and thus an unlikely match in my opinion. Daeron I conquered Dorne, he didn't win it by means of a treaty nor did he sugarcoat the fact that he was the master and the Dornish his subjects and servants. He did install Lord Tyrell as governor in Dorne, after all, and Myriah would have been a nine-year-old when Daeron I was sixteen.

@Ran has told us that he cannot say what's from George and what's from the creators of the game, but I'm not sure whether that extends to the birth years of characters definitely created by George. Can you tell us whether the birth year of 150 AC comes from George?

For what it's worth, there is another Martell princess in the MUSH who would fit such a role better - Maron and Myriah's aunt, Princess Ariana Martell, born in 145 AC, who was once a hostage at KL. She would be a better candidate for a potential Martell betrothed (or queen) of Daeron I.

And rereading the house entries there: I'd be surprised if the Dornish actually used the title 'Lord Protector of Dorne' for a regent ruling the land in the name of a Prince. Dorne is separate realm, unconquered at the time, and there is no reason to believe they would keep the same offices as the other kingdoms do - before or after the Targaryen Conquest -, nor use the same names for the same or similar offices.

As a MUSH player I recall that in-game, Daeron wed Mariah on his sixteenth nameday at the end of 169, and then Baelor Breakspear was born a little over 9 months later, at the beginning of the 10th month of 170.

I was not around in the earlier days but I believe Daeron was just painted as being preoccupied with the war. Ariana, meanwhile, is definitely a character who has been created for the game. The Dornish characters in the character database that have been flagged as fully canon are: Aliandra Martell, Coryanne Martell, Qyle Martell, Mariah Martell, Maron Martell, Wyland Wyl, Moriah Qorgyle, Gyles Yronwood (the exile), Cassella Vaith, and her father Caston and elder brother Caswald who have not been mentioned in canon as of yet (perhaps they only exist in GRRM notes).

I cannot speak for Ran as to where he got that title from, but it does not strike me as particularly unrealistic that they would use a title for regent that has been used in the Iron Throne and Vale and could possibly have been a pre-conquest office. There are also titles in use that are different to the Iron Throne (such as Lord Justiciar instead of Master of Laws, Lord Treasurer instead of Master of Coin, as per canon, etc.)

[The Merling King]

21 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Since Fire and Blood ends with Aegon III turning 16 and ending his regency, there is still much we don't know about the Targaryens after the Dance. I find the marriages of Aegon's and Viserys' children to be rather odd, and was wondering what your thoughts are on how and why they came to be.

It looks like post dance the marriages were arranged to reconcile and mend the realm. Viserys II married Aemon and Nearys to reinstitute the “Targeryensness” because of their Lyseni mother. Daeron I and and Viserys II probably married Baelor and Daena for consistency or to produce a heir if Daeron had other plans for his Queen. That plan could have been a Martell, Tyrell or a foreign bride as he did have a treaty with the Sealord of Bravos. Then during and after the Blackfyre rebellion the Targaryen marriages seem to be more about political alliances and building coalitions.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There was literal no need to rush things in the potential heirs department. Daeron I had four siblings, an uncle, and two first cousins to succeed him, not to mention his Targaryen-Velaryon and Targaryen-Hightower kin. In fact, if you think about it, Daeron I had more potential heirs around as Jaehaerys I in his last years (who had only four grandchildren and three great-grandchildren). Daeron I has seven Targaryen relations, six Hightower cousins, and an unknown number of Velaryon cousins as heirs.

We don’t know a lot about the Targaryen-Velaryon and Targaryen-Hightower branches post regency. I am surprised that Daeron II did not try to wed any of his children or grandchildren into either line. Maybe they were wary after the Dance and first Blackfyres Rebellion but you would think an alliance with Targaryen-Hightower or if they wed into the Tyrells would give them support in one of the Blackfyres power bases. Also Targaryen-Velaryon gives them naval support in the narrow sea against any Blackfyre invasion.

Daeron II needed Stormland support for his Dornish policies and the Baratheons were in the dog house post dance, so Daeron II wed Baelor Breakspear to one of the strongest Marcher lords, the Dondarions. Aerys I married his cousin Alinor Penrose and further increased Stormland support. The Arryns supported the crown during the rebellion and showed up at the Redgrass Fields unlike the Tyrells and Lannister’s, so they get a royal marriage to prince Raegal. Prince Maekar was married to Dayanna Dayne either for love, to make his mother happy or to gain control of the west coast of Dorne. I am surprised they did not repeat the Stormlord marcher lord strategy either with the Reacher marcher lords like Tarlys or a house with notorious Dornish hatred like the Oakhearts?

Under Aerys I and Bloodraven the marriages of the grandchildren Dearon II are more random and seem to break this trend and revert back to incestuous (Aelor and Aelora and Aerion and Deanora) and foreign marriages (Kiera of Tyrosh marries Valarr and then Daeron  the Drunkard.) I know they wanted to neutralize Tyroshi support for the Blackfyres but I would think there would be a more beneficial marriage for the son of Baelor Breaskpear?

[Lord Varys]

43 minutes ago, Vaith said:

As a MUSH player I recall that in-game, Daeron wed Mariah on his sixteenth nameday at the end of 169, and then Baelor Breakspear was born a little over 9 months later, at the beginning of the 10th month of 170.

Well, we have to wait and see how this turns out in FaB II. I think Myriah being a mere three years older than Daeron works perfectly fine, there.

Do you have any idea how you played the thing about Myriah not succeeding to Dorne despite being the eldest and thus the heir.

That is an odd development in any case, but even so while it is not yet clear that Viserys II would succeed Baelor. But even if it was clear at the time of the wedding or earlier that Young Daeron would eventually sit the Iron Throne (or his children, if he died early) then this still isn't a reason for the heiress of Dorne to give up her claim. Prince Daeron Targaryen could be the consort at her side while she rules Dorne, no? And once he becomes king they could separate if their children are already adults and visit each other if they so choose.

When Baelor made that deal it strikes me as very likely that the original plan was to send Daeron to Sunspear as a ward with him to grow up and live there, rather than the other way around.

43 minutes ago, Vaith said:

I was not around in the earlier days but I believe Daeron was just painted as being preoccupied with the war. Ariana, meanwhile, is definitely a character who has been created for the game. The Dornish characters in the character database that have been flagged as fully canon are: Aliandra Martell, Coryanne Martell, Qyle Martell, Mariah Martell, Maron Martell, Wyland Wyl, Moriah Qorgyle, Gyles Yronwood (the exile), Cassella Vaith, and her father Caston and elder brother Caswald who have not been mentioned in canon as of yet (perhaps they only exist in GRRM notes).

Oh, thanks! Do you have information for other such characters from the MUSH?

43 minutes ago, Vaith said:

I cannot speak for Ran as to where he got that title from, but it does not strike me as particularly unrealistic that they would use a title for regent that has been used in the Iron Throne and Vale and could possibly have been a pre-conquest office. There are also titles in use that are different to the Iron Throne (such as Lord Justiciar instead of Master of Laws, Lord Treasurer instead of Master of Coin, as per canon, etc.)

I just found it an odd choice. Yes, the Lord Protector title is also used in the Vale, but so far only for post-Conquest stuff. Could be such titles and offices were unified after the Targaryen Conquest. Even if this particular title was Andal to the bone ... the Dornishmen aren't Andal to the bone, are they? If they don't have kings anymore, there should be some other effects of Rhoynish culture there, too.

And there are different offices there in Sunspear. They do have a seneschal, their own lord treasurer, as you pointed out, and so forth.

3 minutes ago, The Merling King said:

It looks like post dance the marriages were arranged to reconcile and mend the realm. Viserys II married Aemon and Nearys to reinstitute the “Targeryensness” because of their Lyseni mother. Daeron I and and Viserys II probably married Baelor and Daena for consistency or to produce a heir if Daeron had other plans for his Queen. That plan could have been a Martell, Tyrell or a foreign bride as he did have a treaty with the Sealord of Bravos. Then during and after the Blackfyre rebellion the Targaryen marriages seem to be more about political alliances and building coalitions.

Well, to be sure, Aegon and Naerys marry in 153 AC, over two decades after the Dance. Regardless when their betrothal was made, the second Laena Velaryon may have married before them, and Alyn and Baela's second child around the same time as they did.

As I like to say on this issue - the issue isn't that Daeron I didn't marry a sister, the issue is that he married his younger brother to a sister he was exactly well suited for before he made his own match. Daena would have been a much better queen for Daeron I, and whoever the hell Daeron I wanted to marry himself - if he wanted to marry somebody - could just as well have married Baelor or one of the other sisters.

3 minutes ago, The Merling King said:

We don’t know a lot about the Targaryen-Velaryon and Targaryen-Hightower branches post regency. I am surprised that Daeron II did not try to wed any of his children or grandchildren into either line. Maybe they were wary after the Dance and first Blackfyres Rebellion but you would think an alliance with Targaryen-Hightower or if they wed into the Tyrells would give them support in one of the Blackfyres power bases. Also Targaryen-Velaryon gives them naval support in the narrow sea against any Blackfyre invasion.

I actually expect that such unions took place. Chances are pretty good that the second Laena Velaryon could be the mother of Ronnel Penrose ... who could have fathered Aelinor on a first wife before taking Elaena as a second wife during the reign of Daeron II.

Jena Dondarrion, Alys Arryn, and Dyanna Dayne could likewise be descended from Targaryen-Velaryons or Targaryen-Hightowers. Those six daughters of Garmund and Rhaena (who likely will turn out to be around from 140 AC onwards, considering Garmund is the youngest brother of Lord Lyonel and not likely to marry Lady Rhaena immediately all that quickly. But there is still more than enough time for them to marry Dondarrions, Arryns, and Daynes and have daughters of their own by the time of the mid-180s when the matches of Daeron II's sons were likely made.

During the Conquest of Dorne one of those Targaryen-Hightower girls could end up with the Lord of Starfall/heir of Sunspear or some relation of his easily enough. Just as Daeron I could reward a valiant Dondarrion lord or heir for his part in the war with the hand of one of his cousins. And an Arryn-Hightower marriage would also be perfectly fine, too. Especially if the Hightower in question was a relation to the king.

Perhaps not all of those six daughters will marry and have offspring of their own. But some should. And one of them could even end marrying a Lord of Oldtown himself. The MUSH seems to have included the Lord Jon Hightower who brings Serenei of Lys to the court of the Unworthy (as grandson of Lord Lyonel and Lady Sam). It has him as being born in 152 AC - Garmund's and Rhaena's fifth or sixth daughter could easily be born around the same time, or close enough to make this a suitable match.

3 minutes ago, The Merling King said:

Daeron II needed Stormland support for his Dornish policies and the Baratheons were in the dog house post dance, so Daeron II wed Baelor Breakspear to one of the strongest Marcher lords, the Dondarions. Aerys I married his cousin Alinor Penrose and further increased Stormland support. The Arryns supported the crown during the rebellion and showed up at the Redgrass Fields unlike the Tyrells and Lannister’s, so they get a royal marriage to prince Raegal. Prince Maekar was married to Dayanna Dayne either for love, to make his mother happy or to gain control of the west coast of Dorne. I am surprised they did not repeat the Stormlord marcher lord strategy either with the Reacher marcher lords like Tarlys or a house with notorious Dornish hatred like the Oakhearts?

The Dondarrion match there is very odd if it were to turn out that Jena wasn't herself of Targaryen descent. When the match was made Daeron II already had issues with his half-brothers and stuff - and Baelor didn't look like a Targaryen prince at all. If the 'royal looks' mattered - and they did, it seems - then it would be very stupid to increase the risk that Baelor's sons would look even more 'common' than their father.

Also, we are told that Egg's marriage to a Blackwood created a considerable scandal despite the fact that he was the fourth son of the Heir Apparent at that time, not likely to get near to the throne. This would have been much worse if Daeron II married his heir to simple Dondarrion who essentially descended from some common messenger.

If that truly happened then Baelor's wife should have been one of the main reasons why the Blackfyre supporters thought Daeron II was ruining the kingdom. But at this point nobody said anything of that sort.

Also, if Aegon V was the Targaryen king who changed the incest/kin marriage policy (or tried to) then it just doesn't make much sense that Daeron II would have deliberately tried to avoid marriages between close kin. And we do know he didn't do that in the case of Aelinor Penrose ... and very likely also not in the case of Ronnel Penrose and Princess Elaena.

It is, of course, also possible that the Penrose and Dondarrion element in the Targaryen family tree are linked. If we imagine Laena Velaryon were Ronnel Penrose's mother, then she could also have a sister a year younger or older than Ronnel who married a Dondarrion who then produced Jena.

A single drop of dragon blood in the Stormlands can multiply easily enough.

3 minutes ago, The Merling King said:

Under Aerys I and Bloodraven the marriages of the grandchildren Dearon II are more random and seem to break this trend and revert back to incestuous (Aelor and Aelora and Aerion and Deanora) and foreign marriages (Kiera of Tyrosh marries Valarr and then Daeron  the Drunkard.) I know they wanted to neutralize Tyroshi support for the Blackfyres but I would think there would be a more beneficial marriage for the son of Baelor Breaskpear?

That started earlier. Daeron II/Maekar arranged the betrothal between Egg and Daella (since that's already a thing in TSS) and Aelor and Aelora may have been betrothed by that time, too.

Like with the sons of Daeron II, his grandsons also have precious few sisters. Daella and Rhae are much younger than Aerion and Daeron, and Valarr and Matarys do not have any sisters or cousins in their age, either. It isn't a surprise that they looked for brides elsewhere.

Kiera of Tyrosh could turn out to be a rather interesting figure. It would not surprise me if it turned out she was a Blackfyre born in exile, or something of that sort. Even if not, she could be a close Blackfyre relation on the side of Rohanne of Tyrosh. The fact that Aerys I or Maekar ended up marrying Daeron to Valarr's widow implies she is important. If she were irrelevant Bloodraven and Aerys I had sent her back to Tyrosh after the Spring.