Targaryen Marriages After the Dance

[Vaith]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, we have to wait and see how this turns out in FaB II. I think Myriah being a mere three years older than Daeron works perfectly fine, there.

Do you have any idea how you played the thing about Myriah not succeeding to Dorne despite being the eldest and thus the heir.

That is an odd development in any case, but even so while it is not yet clear that Viserys II would succeed Baelor. But even if it was clear at the time of the wedding or earlier that Young Daeron would eventually sit the Iron Throne (or his children, if he died early) then this still isn't a reason for the heiress of Dorne to give up her claim. Prince Daeron Targaryen could be the consort at her side while she rules Dorne, no? And once he becomes king they could separate if their children are already adults and visit each other if they so choose.

When Baelor made that deal it strikes me as very likely that the original plan was to send Daeron to Sunspear as a ward with him to grow up and live there, rather than the other way around.

When the betrothal was officially made, Mariah was younger than Maron. A few family trees were changed after the publication of TWOIAF (and since F&B there have also been a couple of other tweaks), and the birth order of the Martell children was one of them. 

In the game, Mariah was considered disinherited after the betrothal. While no formal heir to the Iron Throne was named, it seemed that during that time, Baelor was acknowledging Daeron as a future successor and that even if he lived to an old age, Daeron and his descendants would follow him one day. He knew that he was going to be celibate forever while brokering the betrothal, and by the time of the actual wedding, his marriage had been annulled and his sisters had been in the Maidenvault for 6-7 years.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, thanks! Do you have information for other such characters from the MUSH?

The North: Cregan Stark, Arra Norrey, Alysanne Blackwood, Lynara Stark, Rickon Stark (son of Cregan), Jeyne Manderly, Sansa Stark (daughter of Rickon), Serena Stark, Edric Stark, Barthogan Stark, Rickon Stark, Robyn Ryswell, Torrhen Manderly, Desmond Manderly, Medrick Manderly. No-one new.

The Iron Islands: None. The ironborn family trees are pretty small.

The Riverlands: Kermit Tully, Ellyn Baratheon (she married Lord Blackwood in the game's version of things), Oscar Tully, Samwell Blackwood, Benjicot Blackwood, Joseth Smallwood, Roland Darry, Derrick Darry, Melissa Blackwood, Elmo Tully, Merry Meg, Manfryd Mooton, Walys Mooton, Jorah Mallister, Rosamund Darry, Barba Bracken. No-one new, though some of these were here before the publication of F&B.

The Westerlands: Loreon Lannister, Clarent Crakehall, Damon Lannister, Tyland Lannister, Jason Lannister, Johanna Westerling, Tyshara Lannister, Lorent Marbrand, Lysa Farman. No-one new.

The Reach: Leo Tyrell, Alan Beesbury, Lyonel Hightower, Samantha Tarly, Martyn Hightower, Jon Hightower, Bethany Hightower, Armond Caswell, Thaddeus Rowan, Floris Baratheon, Olyvar Oakheart, Quentyn Ball, Morgil Hastwyck. No-one new.

The Stormlands: Gawen Swann, Steffon Connington, Walter Brownhill, Cassandra Baratheon, Maris Baratheon, Elenda Caron, Olyver Baratheon, Borros Baratheon, Alora Fell (the executed Lady Fell from the Dance of the Dragons), and Willis Fell. No-one new.

The Vale: Quenton Corbray, Leowyn Corbray, Corwyn Corbray, Gwayne Corbray, Joffrey Arryn. No-one new.

The Crownlands: Daeron I Targaryen, Baelor I Targaryen, Daena Targaryen, Elaena Targaryen, Rhaena Targaryen, Viserys II Targaryen, Aegon Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone (to be Aegon IV), Aemon "the Dragonknight" Targaryen, Naerys Targaryen, Alyn Velaryon, Daemon Waters (to be Blackfyre), Daeron Targaryen (to be Daeron II), Baelor Targaryen (later Breakspear), Aerys Targaryen (to be Aerys I), Mathar Rosby, Gormon Massey, Robin Massey, Clement Celtigar. No-one new.

So yes, it seems those flagged as canon who are unaccounted for so far in this post TWOIAF, post F&B, pre-F&B II time are Cassella Vaith's father (supposedly a lord who raided the Iron Throne's camps after the Prince of Dorne bent the knee) and brother (who was Lord Tyrell's puppet, usurped his elder brother, and was later killed).

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I just found it an odd choice. Yes, the Lord Protector title is also used in the Vale, but so far only for post-Conquest stuff. Could be such titles and offices were unified after the Targaryen Conquest. Even if this particular title was Andal to the bone ... the Dornishmen aren't Andal to the bone, are they? If they don't have kings anymore, there should be some other effects of Rhoynish culture there, too.

And there are different offices there in Sunspear. They do have a seneschal, their own lord treasurer, as you pointed out, and so forth.

I do not think we know enough details about the pre-conquest times to say whether this could or could not have been in use. "Lord" is a pretty generic term used by Andals, First Men, the Rhoynar, and even some Essosi use it in titles like "Lord Justiciar," so personally I do not see "Lord Protector" as a particularly specific title.

[The Merling King]

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Kiera of Tyrosh could turn out to be a rather interesting figure. It would not surprise me if it turned out she was a Blackfyre born in exile, or something of that sort. Even if not, she could be a close Blackfyre relation on the side of Rohanne of Tyrosh. The fact that Aerys I or Maekar ended up marrying Daeron to Valarr's widow implies she is important. If she were irrelevant Bloodraven and Aerys I had sent her back to Tyrosh after the Spring.

I have head this theory before and do find it intriguing and plausible. Kiera of Tyrosh could be related to Rohanne but if she was directly related to the Blackfyres, she would have to be a daughter of Damon and Rohanne? Kiera Was married to Valarr and gave birth to 2 stillborn babies by 209, so she is to old to be a granddaughter of Damon’s, for example a daughter of Bittersteel and Calla. My question  would be if Kiera of Tyrosh was directly related to the Blackfyres, then why did Haegon and Bittersteel go so hard in the 3rd rebellion? Also do you have any thoughts or head cannon on the Third Blackfyre Rebellion?

 

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, The Merling King said:

I have head this theory before and do find it intriguing and plausible. Kiera of Tyrosh could be related to Rohanne but if she was directly related to the Blackfyres, she would have to be a daughter of Damon and Rohanne? Kiera Was married to Valarr and gave birth to 2 stillborn babies by 209, so she is to old to be a granddaughter of Damon’s, for example a daughter of Bittersteel and Calla. My question  would be if Kiera of Tyrosh was directly related to the Blackfyres, then why did Haegon and Bittersteel go so hard in the 3rd rebellion? Also do you have any thoughts or head cannon on the Third Blackfyre Rebellion?

Yeah, exile doesn't really work well, but she could be an older Blackfyre daughter who, for what reason, didn't use the name.

I'd be very surprised if Daeron married Kiera before the Third Rebellion. Their daughter Vaella was only born in 222 AC, i.e. three years after the Third Rebellion. Could be that this match was made as a way to placate the Archon of Tyrosh or other factions there in the wake of the murder of Haegon Blackfyre and other stuff that happened in the war.

After all, perhaps Aerys I did ship Kiera back to Tyrosh after Bloodraven crushed the Second Rebellion and they thought Daemon II was all the hostage they needed? Daeron isn't the man who will be keen to marry - and there is no need for any son of Maekar's to breed quickly, while Rhaegel and his children are still around.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Based on the information we have right now, I find the "tamed by marriage" theory to be the most persuasive for the sibling marriages. I think the bigger questions now are why Daeron hadn't been betrothed despite being Aegon III's heir (maybe he was and she died--we don't know at this point), and why Viserys forced Naerys to marry Aegon IV but allowed Aemon to join the kingsguard. 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Based on the information we have right now, I find the "tamed by marriage" theory to be the most persuasive for the sibling marriages. I think the bigger questions now are why Daeron hadn't been betrothed despite being Aegon III's heir (maybe he was and she died--we don't know at this point), and why Viserys forced Naerys to marry Aegon IV but allowed Aemon to join the kingsguard. 

I'm not really sure why anyone should bother taming Daena. He was just a girl, after all, and Baelor not exactly the kind of guy one would expect to tame a strong-willed woman, no?

And with the purity of blood ideology behind the whole incest thing it also is rather hard to swallow that the king would marry his brother to his eldest sister and not pick a sister himself. After all, Daeron I's children and grandchildren would succeed to the throne, not Baelor's. Therefore, there is actually little need for Baelor to keep his blood pure and marry a sister, no?

Couldn't that, in the long run, harm the standing of Daeron's descendants in comparison to Baelor's?

With Aemon-Jocelyn we get a great explanation - they are in love, and Jocelyn is his aunt, anyway, and has Targaryen blood herself as a descendant of Alyssa Velaryon and Orys Baratheon both, while the oldest sister, Alyssa, is in love with Baelon and destined for him.

The problem with Baelor-Daena is that neither of them was in love with the other nor would have Baelor himself been all that inclined to marry.

Regardless how one spins it, this just isn't a very convincing scenario. Like the FaB story of there being no explanation as to why Aemon and Baelon didn't arrange a betrothal between Rhaenys and Viserys. That is the big elephant in the room there. George gave the matches of the children of Jaehaerys I a lot of thought and made that all work by moving around the established birth order, but the question of Jaehaerys I's grandchildren is a huge mess.

Depending how things go I think Daeron I should have at least been betrothed - especially if were to turn out that Aegon III had also brokered/authorized the match of Baelor and Daena (sort of like Rhaenyra decided that her sons would marry Daemon's daughters when they were still very young). It might be that Daeron I only went through with a marriage their father had already arranged.

Daeron I could also have decided to dissolve whatever betrothal was in store for him - possibly even Daena herself - in favor of arranging a betrothal with a Dornish hostage. In fact, perhaps he decided to marry Daena to Baelor because he didn't want to marry her. That could be an interesting explanation.

I think the best take on the Viserys thing is that he wanted his son to continue his bloodline and he wanted him to marry a sister because he wanted proper Targaryen children - especially if he had a seat of his own he intended to hand down to his son and grandsons.

Aemon shouldn't really be a problem. Aegon and Naerys married in 153 AC, four years before the death of Aegon III. For all we know Queen Daenaera was still alive and could have given the king more sons. As I said - in 153 AC Aegon III had nine Targaryen heirs in his children, his brother, his nephews and niece - not counting the Targaryen-Velaryons and Targaryen-Hightowers his sister produced. Aegon and Naerys would produce even more heirs, meaning the loss of Viserys' youngest son to the Kingsguard would be basically the same as Aemon or Vaegon becoming maesters.

Also, Aegon III was still a young man in the 150s - they would have expected/hoped he would rule for many decades to come, while his own children and Viserys' children would produce children and grandchildren of their own, creating even more Targaryen heirs. Losing one potential heir in Aemon would have been just fine in such a scenario.

But we really don't know yet whether anyone asked Viserys about the Kingsguard thing. It would have been Aegon III who accepted his nephew as a Kingsguard, not Viserys.

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not really sure why anyone should bother taming Daena. He was just a girl, after all, and Baelor not exactly the kind of guy one would expect to tame a strong-willed woman, no?

Well, it could also go the other way, too. Maybe whoever arranged the marriage--Daenaera, perhaps--hoped that Daena would bring Baelor out of his shell.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But we really don't know yet whether anyone asked Viserys about the Kingsguard thing. It would have been Aegon III who accepted his nephew as a Kingsguard, not Viserys.

Would Aegon really have not consulted Viserys first? We're told the two were very close, and that Viserys served as his Hand while Aegon would brood in his bedchamber for days on end. It seems unlikely that Viserys didn't know about Aemon being chosen for the Kingsguard beforehand.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Well, it could also go the other way, too. Maybe whoever arranged the marriage--Daenaera, perhaps--hoped that Daena would bring Baelor out of his shell.

Not sure what the point of that would be, either. Baelor was a second son. He could very well become a septon if the Heir Apparent and later the king produced heirs.

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Would Aegon really have not consulted Viserys first? We're told the two were very close, and that Viserys served as his Hand while Aegon would brood in his bedchamber for days on end. It seems unlikely that Viserys didn't know about Aemon being chosen for the Kingsguard beforehand.

Sure, Viserys could have been consulted, but it would have been Aemon's and Aegon III's call, not Viserys'. Like with Jaime and Aerys II.

But if one thinks about the shit Aegon III and Viserys had to take from 'loyal Kingsguard' back during the Regency (Willis Fell, Marston Waters, Amaury Peake, Mervyn Flowers, etc.) it stands to reason that the idea to have a Targaryen prince on the Kingsguard - a man belonging to the family who could be trusted implicity - would be something the Aegon III and Viserys would consider a good idea.

The best overall explanation I see for Viserys to force Naerys on Aegon is that he was his heir and destined to succeed his line and inherit what Viserys had to give to him (if he had anything to give which we don't know at this point). Aemon wouldn't have been very important from a dynastic point of view.

But the Aegon-Naerys thing is a striking reminder that Baelor-Daena is just weird. Like with Daena who was younger than Daeron and Baelor both, Naerys was younger than Aegon and Aemon ... yet she still married her eldest brother, not the younger one.

On 5/4/2020 at 5:09 AM, Vaith said:

When the betrothal was officially made, Mariah was younger than Maron. A few family trees were changed after the publication of TWOIAF (and since F&B there have also been a couple of other tweaks), and the birth order of the Martell children was one of them. 

In the game, Mariah was considered disinherited after the betrothal. While no formal heir to the Iron Throne was named, it seemed that during that time, Baelor was acknowledging Daeron as a future successor and that even if he lived to an old age, Daeron and his descendants would follow him one day. He knew that he was going to be celibate forever while brokering the betrothal, and by the time of the actual wedding, his marriage had been annulled and his sisters had been in the Maidenvault for 6-7 years.

That is interesting.

As things stand right now, Baelor arranged the match before the incident with the vipers and thus at a time when he may not yet have been determined to annul his marriage or take the vows of a septon afterwards. Meaning at this time the prospects of Baelor fathering children of his own was still there.

I'm thinking about the scenario we get from Gyldayn about the hypothetical daughter of Jacaerys Velaryon who would have been sent to Winterfell as a ward of Lord Cregan until she was old enough to marry his heir, Rickon. I always imagined something of that sort for Daeron and Myriah ... with Daeron being the one being sent to Dorne.

Or think about Myrcella. Trystane isn't exactly the heir of Dorne but he still lives at Sunspear and Myrcella is sent to join him there.

Even if we imagine that Daeron was quickly seen as the third in line to the throne (after Baelor made it clear he would never father legitimate children) then I'm not sure why the Martells should disinherit their heir so that Prince Daeron can become king. Aegon Targaryen can produce more children with his sister-wife who could succeed to the Iron Throne in Daeron's stead ... assuming it would ever come to that. Baelor was a young man, Viserys wasn't an old man, and Aegon was a pretty young guy, too. Daeron and Myriah could both predecease all or at least some of the people between them and the Iron Throne.

The point to really decide anything there for the Targaryens would be when Aegon IV finally took the throne. After all, we see it very much with the succession of Jaehaerys I that kings do not map out their succession down to the second or third or fourth potential heir. You have just one. And when you lose that guy you name another, and so forth.

Thanks for the updates on the MUSH characters. I'm of the impression that the Tyrell regency government is implicitly mentioned in FaB, though. We never get the name of Lord Tyrell's mother or the other guys running the show at Highgarden, but there is talk about them.

On 5/4/2020 at 5:09 AM, Vaith said:

I do not think we know enough details about the pre-conquest times to say whether this could or could not have been in use. "Lord" is a pretty generic term used by Andals, First Men, the Rhoynar, and even some Essosi use it in titles like "Lord Justiciar," so personally I do not see "Lord Protector" as a particularly specific title.

Well, I'd have liked something along the lines of 'Prince Vicar of Dorne' (inspired by the title used in the HRE) or 'Prince Regent of Dorne' considering the fact that Dorne simply isn't a monarchy but a principality and thus has a visibly different government structure at the top going back to Rhoynish influences.

It is well and good to have everything be the same after the Conquest but if we ever got a detailed history about the ancient North or Westerlands I'd also like there to be different titles used to hammer home the fact that those were different kingdoms.

Also, there is the problem that the office of Lord Protector (of the Realm) isn't all that well defined. It seems to encompass only a specific set of duties connected to keeping the peace or commanding the armies in a time of war, not to run the government in the name of a minor or incapacitated monarch. During the Regency of Aegon III the Protector of the Realm was originally Leowyn Corbray, a man who was (technically at least) subject to the rule of the council of regents, as was the Hand of the King. In the Vale, Lysa Arryn rules the Vale as regent in the name of her son, Lord Robert. She makes Littlefinger Lord Protector but she can also dismiss him (which she never did, of course) which is why he is subject to her authority while she is still alive.

[The Grey Wolf]

@Lord Varys

That's a big part of my beef with F & B V1. It completely skimps on the details regarding Aegon I and Jaehaerys I's reforms in favor of sex and blood. We're told Aegon I conquered Westeros but that Jaehaerys I was the guy who made them truly one and yet we know practically nothing about what differentiates each of the 7K pre-Targaryen. There are no specific regional cuisines, regional art styles, regional fashions, regional laws, regional titles, regional military doctrines, regional writings, regional religious customs, regional currencies, regional coronation ceremonies, regional thrones/crowns, regional etiquettes, etc. with Dorne, the North, and Iron Isles being at best mediocre exceptions. The impact of Jaehaerys I's roads on the economic development of towns and cities as well as the intricacies of the Faith and New Gift go unmentioned and so on and so forth. F & B V1 isn't so much a proper faux academic work as it is the Westerosi equivalent of Procopius's Secret History.