Was Tyrion really treated terribly by his family?

[EccentricHorse11]

Now I have read a lot of these forums and in many of the topics regarding Tyrion, people generally mention that he was despised treated like trash by everyone. I do not know if this is only some people's opinion or if this is the general view on the matter, but I feel like it is false. Tyrion was hated by Cersei(due to the prophecy) and Tywin (for being the cause  his mother's death). But the rest of the Lannisters seem to be on quite good terms with him. Jaime and Tyrion obviously get along fine and when reading the books, I always felt that Kevan seemed to respect and love him. His Uncle Tygett was "kind to him" as Tyrion mentions to Jacelyn Bywater in the second book.

"I want Tyrek found, alive or dead. He's no more than a boy. Son to my late uncle Tygett. His father was always kind to me."

He calls Gerion Lannister his favorite uncle and his aunt Genna Lannisters went so far as to claim that it was Tyion who was truly Tywin's son (aside from her, only the readers think that)

He seems to have a good relationship with Tommen and Myrcella. Now Joffrey is different, but he is a jerk to everyone.

 

And most of the smallfolk would be too terrified  of his status to really mock him or treat him differently. Sure they are going to talk about him behind his back but they can't mock him to his face.

Most of the other nobles would also be either too terrified or too polite and well brought up to mock him.

 

So what do you guys think? Looking forward to hearing your views.

[frenin]

Not by his family, just by his sister and father.

[redwolf@winterhell]

7 hours ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

Now I have read a lot of these forums and in many of the topics regarding Tyrion, people generally mention that he was despised treated like trash by everyone. I do not know if this is only some people's opinion or if this is the general view on the matter, but I feel like it is false. Tyrion was hated by Cersei(due to the prophecy) and Tywin (for being the cause  his mother's death). But the rest of the Lannisters seem to be on quite good terms with him. Jaime and Tyrion obviously get along fine and when reading the books, I always felt that Kevan seemed to respect and love him. His Uncle Tygett was "kind to him" as Tyrion mentions to Jacelyn Bywater in the second book.

"I want Tyrek found, alive or dead. He's no more than a boy. Son to my late uncle Tygett. His father was always kind to me."

He calls Gerion Lannister his favorite uncle and his aunt Genna Lannisters went so far as to claim that it was Tyion who was truly Tywin's son (aside from her, only the readers think that)

He seems to have a good relationship with Tommen and Myrcella. Now Joffrey is different, but he is a jerk to everyone.

 

And most of the smallfolk would be too terrified  of his status to really mock him or treat him differently. Sure they are going to talk about him behind his back but they can't mock him to his face.

Most of the other nobles would also be either too terrified or too polite and well brought up to mock him.

 

So what do you guys think? Looking forward to hearing your views.

Beside Cersei, Tywin, and Joffery , the other Lannisters seemed actually nice to Tyrion. In his POV chapters, Tyrion mentioned that his other family was indeed good to Tyrion. He has said that his uncles had taught to him to cartwheel and much more. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

He was treated relatively badly but he also was raised in splendor.  Tywin's money gave him a princely lifestyle.  He had to take an insult every now and then but he was also dishing it out.  He would not get away with his rudeness if he had not been a Lannister. All in all, who had a better childhood, Sandor or Tyrion? Tyrion.

[Bernie Mac]

Everyone is the hero of their own story, while also being the victim when they perceive things don't go their own way. A good example of this is the two 'adopted' children of the Starks. If you were to ask Jon or Theon who had it worse they'd both answer themselves. Similarly, Arianne perceives her father hates her. I imagine that Cersei, being female, thinks she had it worse than Tyrion and obviously Tyrion would think he had it worse than Cersei.

Tyrion didn't have it nearly as bad as he or some in the fandom think.

 

On 5/3/2020 at 8:16 PM, redwolf@winterhell said:

Beside Cersei, Tywin, and Joffery , the other Lannisters seemed actually nice to Tyrion. In his POV chapters, Tyrion mentioned that his other family was indeed good to Tyrion. He has said that his uncles had taught to him to cartwheel and much more. 

You can't even really blame Joffrey on this. Joffrey is 12 and the moment we first see the two of them it is Tyrion slapping Joffrey. It is not like Tyrion, the adult of the two, is innocent in their interactions. Similarly, he threatens the life of his younger cousin Lancel if he does not obey him.

Because the opening books are set up as the Starks as the protagonists and the Lannisters as the antagonists the reader enjoys and sympathizes with the Lannister who hates his family, but he's not the victim he likes to portray himself as.

[redwolf@winterhell]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Everyone is the hero of their own story, while also being the victim when they perceive things don't go their own way. A good example of this is the two 'adopted' children of the Starks. If you were to ask Jon or Theon who had it worse they'd both answer themselves. Similarly, Arianne perceives her father hates her. I imagine that Cersei, being female, thinks she had it worse than Tyrion and obviously Tyrion would think he had it worse than Cersei.

Tyrion didn't have it nearly as bad as he or some in the fandom think.

 

You can't even really blame Joffrey on this. Joffrey is 12 and the moment we first see the two of them it is Tyrion slapping Joffrey. It is not like Tyrion, the adult of the two, is innocent in their interactions. Similarly, he threatens the life of his younger cousin Lancel if he does not obey him.

Because the opening books are set up as the Starks as the protagonists and the Lannisters as the antagonists the reader enjoys and sympathizes with the Lannister who hates his family, but he's not the victim he likes to portray himself as.

Are you defending the boy who cut Eddard's head off, abused Sansa, and was a terrible sadistic king? I do admit that Tyrion was a pretty bad person. And a lot of people are very biased against the Lannisters, but that family did some really horrible things.

[Bernie Mac]

48 minutes ago, redwolf@winterhell said:

Are you defending the boy who cut Eddard's head off, abused Sansa, and was a terrible sadistic king?

He did none of that when we are introduced to him and he is being slapped by his older uncle Tyrion.

1. Eddard wanted him dead, from Joffrey's POV (and the POV of the Kings Landing people who also wanted Ned dead) he was a treasonous traitor who tried to arrest the King and his family and everyone knows what is likely to happen to royalty in that case. I don't have an issue with what he did to Ned from his POV. It was not smart, due to Ned being more valuable as a living hostage, but most people who did what Ned did in our medieval ages or the past of Westeros would have been executed.

2. Sansa, yup he is most definitely awful to her. While he does have reasons for it, her dad and then brother wanted him dead, I do think this is still an evil act by Joffrey.

3. I don't think he really was a terrible or sadistic king, He had no real power, others were ruling for him. He certainly had the potential to be one, but we actually don't see him wield too much power. He has some commoners who tried to storm the palace shot at by arrows. I don't think that makes him a terrible or sadistic King in the middle ages.

 

Quote

 

I do admit that Tyrion was a pretty bad person. And a lot of people are very biased against the Lannisters, but that family did some really horrible things.

All ruling families do in the middle ages. The more power they wield the more awful they are likely to be.

It is the same in the modern age. A president will have more blood on his hands than a Shopkeeper simply because of the difference in scale.

[redwolf@winterhell]

The reason he was slapped by Tyrion was because he made a very rude and you could say misogynistic comment about women and he was also refusing to be polite and condole the Starks on their loss. He was definitely very sadistic, remember what he did to the prostitutes that Tyrion gave him?

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He did none of that when we are introduced to him and he is being slapped by his older uncle Tyrion.

1. Eddard wanted him dead, from Joffrey's POV (and the POV of the Kings Landing people who also wanted Ned dead) he was a treasonous traitor who tried to arrest the King and his family and everyone knows what is likely to happen to royalty in that case. I don't have an issue with what he did to Ned from his POV. It was not smart, due to Ned being more valuable as a living hostage, but most people who did what Ned did in our medieval ages or the past of Westeros would have been executed.

2. Sansa, yup he is most definitely awful to her. While he does have reasons for it, her dad and then brother wanted him dead, I do think this is still an evil act by Joffrey.

3. I don't think he really was a terrible or sadistic king, He had no real power, others were ruling for him. He certainly had the potential to be one, but we actually don't see him wield too much power. He has some commoners who tried to storm the palace shot at by arrows. I don't think that makes him a terrible or sadistic King in the middle ages.

 

All ruling families do in the middle ages. The more power they wield the more awful they are likely to be.

It is the same in the modern age. A president will have more blood on his hands than a Shopkeeper simply because of the difference in scale.

Many of the ruling houses did bad things, but especially the Lannisters. During the Castamere Rebellion, men, along with women and children, had fled to these underground caves beneath Castamere. Do you know what Tywin did? He blocked the entryways to the caves, everyone inside. He then flooded the caves with rock, killing everyone. And he also brought back a few burnt bodies back to Casterly Rock and hung them over the gates all summer, letting them rot. Jaime pushed Bran out the window, hoping to kill him. Joffrey killed a cat that was pregnant and showed the unborn/dead kittens to Robert with a smile on his face. He bullied his younger brother Tommen. Tywin had the Red Wedding orchestrated. Cersei and Jaime slept together since they were children. Jaime killed his cousin, which is one of the greatest sins to the Faith. He has threatened to rape Sansa on multiple occasions, but luckily never acted on his threats. Joffrey hired a man to kill Bran, hoping to please his dad in some sick way. Cersei had mentally abused Sansa and had known that Joffrey was terrible but never said anything.

This is every single bad thing a Lannister has done that I can name of the top of my head. They are Terrible people and while the other Lannisters seem to have good in them(such as Genna , Kevan ,etc) this branch of the family are mostly really bad people who do really bad things.  

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, redwolf@winterhell said:

The reason he was slapped by Tyrion was because he made a very rude and you could say misogynistic comment about women and he was also refusing to be polite and condole the Starks on their loss. He was definitely very sadistic, remember what he did to the prostitutes that Tyrion gave him?

You are confusing the show with the books. That was a show invention, that never took place in the books. This section of the forum is exclusively about the books,  not the show.

Also I'm not sure your point? Should 12 year old's be slapped in the face when they say something ignorant? It sounds like you may be looking for reasons to excuse Tyrion's behaviour.

1 hour ago, redwolf@winterhell said:

Many of the ruling houses did bad things, but especially the Lannisters. During the Castamere Rebellion, men, along with women and children, had fled to these underground caves beneath Castamere. Do you know what Tywin did?

Yes. I know exactly what he did. He offered terms of peace and the Reynes not only refused them but demanded hostages. To end the war he flooded their home and the 300 people inside.

And you are confused about the women and children. It was soldiers who fled there, not women and children, though they would have already been there, being part of the Household.

1 hour ago, redwolf@winterhell said:

 

He blocked the entryways to the caves, everyone inside. He then flooded the caves with rock, killing everyone. And he also brought back a few burnt bodies back to Casterly Rock and hung them over the gates all summer, letting them rot.

That last part is, again, a show invention. It makes no logical sense, given the bodies are still trapped underground.

1 hour ago, redwolf@winterhell said:

 

Jaime pushed Bran out the window, hoping to kill him.

Yup. Ned, Cat and most people in the same position would have done what he did.

That does not make it right, it absolutely was not, but given his position many would have done the same.

1 hour ago, redwolf@winterhell said:

 

Joffrey killed a cat that was pregnant and showed the unborn/dead kittens to Robert with a smile on his face.

Kind of. His dad boasts and brags about hunting, about killing animals and taking them home. 5 year old Joffrey was copying the actions of his 'father'.

The smile on his face was because he felt like he was pleasing his father.

1 hour ago, redwolf@winterhell said:

 

 Tywin had the Red Wedding orchestrated.

No, he beneifitted from it, pardoned and rewared the people who did orchestrate it, but he himself did not.

1 hour ago, redwolf@winterhell said:

 

Cersei and Jaime slept together since they were children.

No. They had a dalliance as young kids that their mother suspected might lead to something else and were separated before it became sexual. They were then living apart, as most noble children are, with Jaime being at Crakehall and Cersei at Kings Landing with her father.

1 hour ago, redwolf@winterhell said:

 

Jaime killed his cousin, which is one of the greatest sins to the Faith.

Show invention.

1 hour ago, redwolf@winterhell said:

 

He has threatened to rape Sansa on multiple occasions, but luckily never acted on his threats.

Jaime? Pretty sure that never happened.

1 hour ago, redwolf@winterhell said:

 

Joffrey hired a man to kill Bran, hoping to please his dad in some sick way.

Is it a sick way? His father told him Bran would be better off dead and he was acting on it. Joffrey is 12 at this point. If a father is teaching his son that, is the issue not just as much with the father than it is the son?

1 hour ago, redwolf@winterhell said:

 

Cersei had mentally abused Sansa and had known that Joffrey was terrible but never said anything.

? What do you expect Cersei to say about her child?

Most mothers don't tell people their children are terrible. Most hope for the best, convince themselves that they are imagining things. Cersei's response to Joffrey is pretty human.

 

[redwolf@winterhell]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You are confusing the show with the books. That was a show invention, that never took place in the books. This section of the forum is exclusively about the books,  not the show.

Also I'm not sure your point? Should 12 year old's be slapped in the face when they say something ignorant? It sounds like you may be looking for reasons to excuse Tyrion's behaviour.

Yes. I know exactly what he did. He offered terms of peace and the Reynes not only refused them but demanded hostages. To end the war he flooded their home and the 300 people inside.

And you are confused about the women and children. It was soldiers who fled there, not women and children, though they would have already been there, being part of the Household.

That last part is, again, a show invention. It makes no logical sense, given the bodies are still trapped underground.

Yup. Ned, Cat and most people in the same position would have done what he did.

That does not make it right, it absolutely was not, but given his position many would have done the same.

Kind of. His dad boasts and brags about hunting, about killing animals and taking them home. 5 year old Joffrey was copying the actions of his 'father'.

The smile on his face was because he felt like he was pleasing his father.

No, he beneifitted from it, pardoned and rewared the people who did orchestrate it, but he himself did not.

No. They had a dalliance as young kids that their mother suspected might lead to something else and were separated before it became sexual. They were then living apart, as most noble children are, with Jaime being at Crakehall and Cersei at Kings Landing with her father.

Show invention.

Jaime? Pretty sure that never happened.

Is it a sick way? His father told him Bran would be better off dead and he was acting on it. Joffrey is 12 at this point. If a father is teaching his son that, is the issue not just as much with the father than it is the son?

? What do you expect Cersei to say about her child?

Most mothers don't tell people their children are terrible. Most hope for the best, convince themselves that they are imagining things. Cersei's response to Joffrey is pretty human.

 

I'm sorry if I did confuse the show with the books, its hard to determine which is books and which show because they are so similar yet so different.

What Joffrey said was really rude but I must admit that what Tyrion did wasn't exactly right or good.

I looked up on whether there were women and children in the caves and it never really specified that there were women and children but never denied it either,  but where else would the women and children have gone? I do know that Tywin killed the whole family, so that part is for sure.

I am again sorry for confusing the show and the books.

I doubt that Ned and Cat would've pushed a little boy out the window. 

The gruesome and horrible thing about Joffrey killing the Cat was just him killing the cat, but cutting the cat open and taking the dead kittens to show his 'father' I doubt that is something that should be acceptable.

Tywin actually orchestrated the Red Wedding. If you look on a wiki of ice and fire (it is for the books, I checked) it does indeed state that Tywin orchestrated the massacre with the Freys.

I am very sure that what Cersei and Jaime were doing were nothing suited for brothers and sisters.

Cersei and Jaime slept in the same bed together when they were very young, and even went as far as to experiment together in a sexual manner at a young age. a wiki of ice and fire ''Jaime Lannister'' page in History.

I am sorry if that was confusing , but I meant Joffrey not Jaime.

Hiring a hit man to kill an innocent boy because his dad made a remark that the boy shouldn't be in pain seems pretty extreme for anyone, much less a twelve year old. I don't see Sansa or Robb doing that.

I expect Cersei to do something about. I do not think that good mothers let their child abuse, and harass another child. Now, I am not denying that Cersei doesn't love her children, she does and I think that's great, but Sansa is also a child and doesn't deserve the cruelties that she went through.

I'm not expecting for Cersei to go around and tell everyone every one that Joffrey is a sadistic king who likes to abuse and hurt other people, but for her to try stop him from doing those things.

 

[Hrulj]

Tyrion is a POV character. Slights both real and imagined are very real to him, amplified by him and shown to us trough his eyes. Is Tyrion really treated poorly for being a dwarf or for being a drunken whoring disgrace to his father? When put into power, real power, the second most powerful position in the kingdom he wasted it on disputes and threats over a common whore, he wagered the defense of the city on a single move, which failed and had it not been for his father and littlefinger he’d have been roasting on a stake. He wasted Myrcella by sending her to Dorne for no benefits whatsoever. There’s plenty of dumb stuff he did but he wasn’t nearly as wronged as he thinks he is. 

[Darth Sidious]

Tyrion is a dwarf.  That alone is enough to say he was born disadvantaged.  He was both treated badly by his family but also given the protection he would otherwise not have had.  It's a double-edged sword to be a Lannister dwarf.  It would have done Tyrion a lot of good to live as Oppo for a few years.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 hours ago, Hrulj said:

Tyrion is a POV character. Slights both real and imagined are very real to him, amplified by him and shown to us trough his eyes. Is Tyrion really treated poorly for being a dwarf or for being a drunken whoring disgrace to his father? When put into power, real power, the second most powerful position in the kingdom he wasted it on disputes and threats over a common whore, he wagered the defense of the city on a single move, which failed and had it not been for his father and littlefinger he’d have been roasting on a stake. He wasted Myrcella by sending her to Dorne for no benefits whatsoever. There’s plenty of dumb stuff he did but he wasn’t nearly as wronged as he thinks he is. 

I think he is treated poorly by his father because he is a dwarf. 

He is denied his birthright because he is a dwarf. Tywin certainly doesn't seem to have an issue with "whoring" when the whore is in his own bed right? 

His defense of the city didn't fail? He held them off for quite some time. What do you think he should have done differently? 

I'm not sure what you mean by him "wasting"his rule over a common whore but that isn't true. He did quite a few things while being hand of the King - more than Ned does certainly. 

Iirc he sent Myrcella to Dorne for an alliance & to keep her safe. That doesn't seem like he wasted her to me. 

 

[Hrulj]

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think he is treated poorly by his father because he is a dwarf. 

He is denied his birthright because he is a dwarf. Tywin certainly doesn't seem to have an issue with "whoring" when the whore is in his own bed right? 

His defense of the city didn't fail? He held them off for quite some time. What do you think he should have done differently? 

I'm not sure what you mean by him "wasting"his rule over a common whore but that isn't true. He did quite a few things while being hand of the King - more than Ned does certainly. 

Iirc he sent Myrcella to Dorne for an alliance & to keep her safe. That doesn't seem like he wasted her to me. 

 

His father resents him for killing his mother. His father considers him an unsuitable heir due to being a dwarf, his legacy would be ruined by encouraged vassals. But contempt comes from his behavior. 
 

Tywin is not whoring publicly. He is not known kingdom wise as an imp. In fact he is so good at doing it behind the scenes that even Tyrion himself is shocked to find a whore in his fathers bed. In the entire book in fact we never even get a faintest whiff of him doing or being interested in something like that. Tyrion meanwhile has built a reputation as a whoremonger and lecher, a man who will use his fathers coin to get things his way without skill to make said coin. 
 

His defense of the city failed. He had no clue his father or anyone would come. He wagered it all on wildfire and it failed to relieve the siege. Stannis kept the attack and would have won. If Tyrion’s plan was part of a greater strategy to delay enough for his father than all power to him. But you can’t claim someone a genius for being lucky. 
 

He threatened to whip his own nephew over a whore. He started a feud and put himself into such a situation over a whore. He went against his fathers explicit orders not to bring a whore and brought a whore with him. He believed a whore to love him or be interested in him for anything other than money. 
 

What alliance? How many swords has Dorne contributed to Lannister cause? He sent her to Dorne to be a hostage for nothing. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

His father resents him for killing his mother. His father considers him an unsuitable heir due to being a dwarf, his legacy would be ruined by encouraged vassals. But contempt comes from his behavior

I disagree. I would imagine the contempt comes from the misplaced blame over killing his mother & from being a dwarf. 

Tywin punishes the boy for marrying a "whore" knowing full well the woman isn't a whore. 

5 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Tywin is not whoring publicly.

So? He is still whoring. He doesn't tell Tyrion to be more discreet about it, he tells him to not bring his whore to KL. The same whore Tywin later has in his own bed, in KL. Tyrion is hardly whoring 'publicly' anyway, he is trying to hide Shae because of his father. 

7 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

He is not known kingdom wise as an imp

What difference does that make? 

7 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

In fact he is so good at doing it behind the scenes that even Tyrion himself is shocked to find a whore in his fathers bed.

So, Tywin hasn't mistreated Tyrion because Tywin is better at whoring than Tyrion? 

I don't see what difference it makes how discreet he was about it. He did it while simultaneously making Tyrion's life rough over doing it. I call that mistreating him. 

9 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

In the entire book in fact we never even get a faintest whiff of him doing or being interested in something like that.

Again, I don't know what difference this makes but there is a hint of sorts. Varys tells us a certain secret door was used by an old hand of the King that wanted to discreetly visit the brothel. It isn't certain it was Tywin but it seems pretty likely IMO. 

My point is, he did it, he was doing it. All while hypocritically shaming Tyrion for it.

11 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Tyrion meanwhile has built a reputation as a whoremonger and lecher, a man who will use his fathers coin to get things his way without skill to make said coin

Who is he know as such to? I don't recall anyone saying these things. 

11 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

His defense of the city failed. He had no clue his father or anyone would come. He wagered it all on wildfire and it failed to relieve the siege. Stannis kept the attack and would have won. If Tyrion’s plan was part of a greater strategy to delay enough for his father than all power to him. But you can’t claim someone a genius for being lucky. 

Well, I didn't claim him a genius I said it didn't fail. 

No, he didn't know his father would come but he put up the best defense I can think of. I'm no strategist though. I assume since you are criticizing his defense you see another route he should have taken. I'm asking what that is? 

13 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

He threatened to whip his own nephew over a whore.

Yes he did. That's hardly "wasting" his rule on a common whore though. He felt responsible for her because it was because they thought her to be his "whore" that she got taken. He made a threat to try to ensure her safety. If you recall, they whipped her & threw her out but Tyrion never did the same or even attempted to do the same to Tommen. 

15 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

He went against his fathers explicit orders not to bring a whore and brought a whore with him. He believed a whore to love him or be interested in him for anything other than money

So what? Lol does that mean it isn't mistreatment to punish him for these things? If only Tyrion had obeyed his father he wouldn't have been mistreated? 

Are you saying it wasn't a mistreatment? Or that he deserved the mistreatment? 

18 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

What alliance? How many swords has Dorne contributed to Lannister cause? He sent her to Dorne to be a hostage for nothing

No, they haven't contributed anything but that was the plan right? To form an alliance & to keep Myrcella safe away from KL. I haven't read that bit in a while so I'm all ears if you have something that refutes that. 

[Hrulj]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree. I would imagine the contempt comes from the misplaced blame over killing his mother & from being a dwarf. 

Tywin punishes the boy for marrying a "whore" knowing full well the woman isn't a whore. 

So? He is still whoring. He doesn't tell Tyrion to be more discreet about it, he tells him to not bring his whore to KL. The same whore Tywin later has in his own bed, in KL. Tyrion is hardly whoring 'publicly' anyway, he is trying to hide Shae because of his father. 

What difference does that make? 

So, Tywin hasn't mistreated Tyrion because Tywin is better at whoring than Tyrion? 

I don't see what difference it makes how discreet he was about it. He did it while simultaneously making Tyrion's life rough over doing it. I call that mistreating him. 

Again, I don't know what difference this makes but there is a hint of sorts. Varys tells us a certain secret door was used by an old hand of the King that wanted to discreetly visit the brothel. It isn't certain it was Tywin but it seems pretty likely IMO. 

My point is, he did it, he was doing it. All while hypocritically shaming Tyrion for it.

Who is he know as such to? I don't recall anyone saying these things. 

Well, I didn't claim him a genius I said it didn't fail. 

No, he didn't know his father would come but he put up the best defense I can think of. I'm no strategist though. I assume since you are criticizing his defense you see another route he should have taken. I'm asking what that is? 

Yes he did. That's hardly "wasting" his rule on a common whore though. He felt responsible for her because it was because they thought her to be his "whore" that she got taken. He made a threat to try to ensure her safety. If you recall, they whipped her & threw her out but Tyrion never did the same or even attempted to do the same to Tommen. 

So what? Lol does that mean it isn't mistreatment to punish him for these things? If only Tyrion had obeyed his father he wouldn't have been mistreated? 

Are you saying it wasn't a mistreatment? Or that he deserved the mistreatment? 

No, they haven't contributed anything but that was the plan right? To form an alliance & to keep Myrcella safe away from KL. I haven't read that bit in a while so I'm all ears if you have something that refutes that. 

1. He was still put in positions of power and given chance to prove himself. He failed and dissapointed every time. 

2. Taisha may not have been one but was a commoner. Tyrion was an idiot for having anything to do with her. 

3. There's a big so. It's not about morals its about the public image and memories of Tywins father. 

4. Honor and reputation is all in such a world. Tyrion has none. 

5. Doing things in secret and doing them openly are hugely different things in medieval times. 

6. Most of his companions with exception of Podrick are with him due to his money. They also toss him downriver when money runs out. 

7. It didn't fail due to his father showing up to save him and the rest of the family. Not due to his actions. As I said, left alone Tyrion would have failed. What exactly he could have done I can't postulate since I don't remember the section that well. 

8. She's a whore. And he threatened his own flesh and blood over her. In a period where blood ties are all that matters. He's an idiot and that was a perfect showcase why he isn't fit to lead a circus nevermind Lannisters. 

9. He deserved it. He himself admits that he does things like that to injure his own father. Mess with the bull, get the horns. 

10. In essence no alliance, no swords, no support, and later on princess gets her face mutilated. A perfect scheme. Vale would have been a better choice. Even Iron Islands. Offering money to sellswords that fight for Stannis to defect. Plenty of alternatives. 

[Bernie Mac]

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think he is treated poorly by his father because he is a dwarf. 

I don't think he is treated poorly by his father. His father is simply not a warm person, he's not warm with Tyrion but he's not particularly warm with Jaime, with Cersei, with his brothers and sister, with his father.

Tyrion is not treated any worse than his siblings are.

The one reprehensible action his father did that involved Tyrion was not because he was a dwarf, it was because he was an idiot, he married a homeless orphan without his father's permission.

Had Cersei married a homeless peasant does anyone think Tywin would have allowed it? Or would that peasant be dead in a ditch somewhere?

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He is denied his birthright because he is a dwarf.

No, and we've gone over this enough times that I think you are well aware that is not the case.

1) It is Jaime's birthright, he is the older son and that is who Tywin intended to inherit. At no point is Tyrion publicly disinherited. At no point does Tywin declare someone else his heir.

2) The private conversation between father and son arises as a result of Tyrion threatening the lives of Tywin's grandsons over the safety of a whore. The two of us have literally discussed this over a dozen times, so I know you are aware of the conversation and the reason Tywin gives.

To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

"My whorehouse?" The dawn broke; Tyrion understood all at once where this bile had come from. He ground his teeth together and said, "Cersei told you about Alayaya."

 

The bile is not because he is a dwarf, it is because Cersei has informed Tywin of what Tyrion did.

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

Tywin certainly doesn't seem to have an issue with "whoring" when the whore is in his own bed right? 

No. Again, I can only assume you do this in bad faith.

Tywin's problem with his father and son has never been about them whoring. Tytos allowed his paramour to misrule the Westerlands, he abandoned his duties in part because he was too preoccupied with her.

Tyrion threatened to hurt his nephews over his paramour.

It is not that Tyrion whores, he's done so for many years before the series started, it is that he marries them or puts them above his own family.

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

His defense of the city didn't fail? He held them off for quite some time. What do you think he should have done differently? 

I partially agree with you here, but the big blunder is that he didn't really do a lot to secure the city.

"The city will not fall in a day. From Harrenhal it is a straight, swift march down the kingsroad. Renly will scarce have unlimbered his siege engines before Father takes him in the rear. His host will be the hammer, the city walls the anvil. It makes a lovely picture."

That is the state of Kings Landing when he arrives and yet he does little to actually strengthen the city, which is most vulnerable to an attack from Renly. He instead uses all his resources on the chain and defending the docks.

Now personally, this is just bad writing from GRRM rather than an actual flaw from Tyrion. GRRM knew what was coming and wanted a spectacular event, but logically Tyrion did not know so him focussing on only a Naval attack makes him come accross as both dumb and lucky.

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not sure what you mean by him "wasting"his rule over a common whore but that isn't true. He did quite a few things while being hand of the King - more than Ned does certainly. 

Ned and Tyrion are in entirely different scenarios though. A war time leader is going to look more proactive than a peace time one, he/she is going to make more decisions that appear meaningful and carry consequence.

So the comparison here is pretty harsh. Also Ned was handicapped by a king who liked the status quo. Tyrion was given his father's permission to do as he pleased

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Iirc he sent Myrcella to Dorne for an alliance & to keep her safe. That doesn't seem like he wasted her to me.

It can be argued both ways. I see the value in it, but I also see it as giving away a royal princess and getting little tangible support in return.

But, personally, I go with it being a good move for the position Tyrion was in that time.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 hours ago, Hrulj said:

He was still put in positions of power and given chance to prove himself. He failed and dissapointed every time

Can you give examples of such? 

7 hours ago, Hrulj said:

. Taisha may not have been one but was a commoner. Tyrion was an idiot for having anything to do with her.

One thing doesn't justify the other. If you are saying he deserved what he got, fine, that's your opinion & I disagree. 

7 hours ago, Hrulj said:

. There's a big so. It's not about morals its about the public image and memories of Tywins father

Yes & no I think. It is about Tywin's father & how he embarrassed the family to an extent but that isn't Tyrion's fault. I think it's also about Tywin's secret whoring & projecting onto Tyrion. 

7 hours ago, Hrulj said:

4. Honor and reputation is all in such a world. Tyrion has none

I disagree. He has some honor & at this point (the end of the series) he certainly has a reputation. 

7 hours ago, Hrulj said:

5. Doing things in secret and doing them openly are hugely different things in medieval times

How so? 

Tyrion was not parading Shae around. Tywin must have people reporting to him that Tyrion has a whore. 

7 hours ago, Hrulj said:

. Most of his companions with exception of Podrick are with him due to his money. They also toss him downriver when money runs out

And who are Tywin's companions that are with him just because they like his sunny disposition? 

You made a claim about how Tyrion is known, I asked for evidence of such. You haven't provided any but have moved the goal posts. 

7 hours ago, Hrulj said:

. It didn't fail due to his father showing up to save him and the rest of the family. Not due to his actions. As I said, left alone Tyrion would have failed. What exactly he could have done I can't postulate since I don't remember the section that well. 

I'm not sure what the point is is criticizing him for a failure if there is not anything else he could have done. 

7 hours ago, Hrulj said:

She's a whore. And he threatened his own flesh and blood over her. In a period where blood ties are all that matters. He's an idiot and that was a perfect showcase why he isn't fit to lead a circus nevermind Lannisters

Yeah, threatening his nephew was terrible but so is abusing a woman, whore or not. 

7 hours ago, Hrulj said:

He deserved it. He himself admits that he does things like that to injure his own father. Mess with the bull, get the horns

Where does he admit that? 

7 hours ago, Hrulj said:

In essence no alliance, no swords, no support, and later on princess gets her face mutilated. A perfect scheme. Vale would have been a better choice. Even Iron Islands. Offering money to sellswords that fight for Stannis to defect. Plenty of alternatives

I never said there weren't alternatives or that the scheme paid off. You said he did it for no reason, I gave the reasons. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

44 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

don't think he is treated poorly by his father. His father is simply not a warm person, he's not warm with Tyrion but he's not particularly warm with Jaime, with Cersei, with his brothers and sister, with his father

That's your opinion but I don't think he treated any of his children very kindly. 

45 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The one reprehensible action his father did that involved Tyrion was not because he was a dwarf, it was because he was an idiot, he married a homeless orphan without his father's permission

Indeed but he does mock Tyrion for being a dwarf & for killing his mother. I can only assume this is the basis for some of his hatred for Tyrion as it's said he loved his wife & we know he is a proud man who puts stock in his families legacy. He blames Tyrion for killing the woman he loved & thinks Tyrion "waddling" around with the lion sigil on is an embarrassment. These feelings have to affect his actions towards Tyrion.

49 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Had Cersei married a homeless peasant does anyone think Tywin would have allowed it? Or would that peasant be dead in a ditch somewhere

Indeed, the peasant would likely be dead in a ditch somewhere. 

This is all hypothetical & guessing since it didn't happen but I would guess that while the marriage would not be allowed he probably wouldn't have orchestrated the gang rape of the peasant & bid Cersei watch & participate. 

51 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is Jaime's birthright, he is the older son and that is who Tywin intended to inherit. At no point is Tyrion publicly disinherited. At no point does Tywin declare someone else his heir

I never claimed he announced it in public. That's you twisting things to fit your agenda. Nor did I say he declared someone else. 

You know as well as I do that it isn't Jaime's birthright. It stops being such the day he becomes a member of the KG. 

53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The private conversation between father and son arises as a result of Tyrion threatening the lives of Tywin's grandsons over the safety of a whore. The two of us have literally discussed this over a dozen times, so I know you are aware of the conversation and the reason Tywin gives

As are you & the reason he gives is not because he threatened his nephew. It is because of a whore. Tywin specifically says he will not allow Tyrion to turn CR into a whore house. Tyrion has done no such thing nor does Tywin have any reason to think he will. 

The fact that Tywin still calls this Jaime's birthright is proof positive that he never intended for Tyrion to inherit the rock, regardless of his threats to Tommen or the whores he kept. He gives his reasons - because he killed his mother & is a dwarf, essentially. I'll quote the passage in full as soon as I'm done typing this. 

58 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is not that Tyrion whores, he's done so for many years before the series started, it is that he marries them or puts them above his own family

He never married one. I disagree that threatening Tommen to try to prevent the abuse of a woman is putting a whore above his family but either way this isn't why Tywin says he can't inherit the Rock. 

 

59 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

partially agree with you here, but the big blunder is that he didn't really do a lot to secure the city.

"The city will not fall in a day. From Harrenhal it is a straight, swift march down the kingsroad. Renly will scarce have unlimbered his siege engines before Father takes him in the rear. His host will be the hammer, the city walls the anvil. It makes a lovely picture."

That is the state of Kings Landing when he arrives and yet he does little to actually strengthen the city, which is most vulnerable to an attack from Renly. He instead uses all his resources on the chain and defending the docks.

Now personally, this is just bad writing from GRRM rather than an actual flaw from Tyrion. GRRM knew what was coming and wanted a spectacular event, but logically Tyrion did not know so him focussing on only a Naval attack makes him come accross as both dumb and lucky

Fair enough. 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Ned and Tyrion are in entirely different scenarios though. A war time leader is going to look more proactive than a peace time one, he/she is going to make more decisions that appear meaningful and carry consequence.

So the comparison here is pretty harsh. Also Ned was handicapped by a king who liked the status quo. Tyrion was given his father's permission to do as he pleased

I'm a Ned fan but I personally think he should have & could have done more as hand. That being said, the comparison is harsh. I was arguing with the assertion that Tyrion did nothing during his reign as hand. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

@Bernie Mac

 

 

Quote

“What do I want, you ask? I’ll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want Casterly Rock.”

     

Quote

His father’s mouth grew hard. “Your brother’s birthright?”

              
     

Quote

“The knights of the Kingsguard are forbidden to marry, to father children, and to hold land, you know that as well as I. The day Jaime put on that white cloak, he gave up his claim to Casterly Rock, but never once have you acknowledged it. It’s pasttime. I want you to stand up before the realm and proclaim that I am your son and your lawful heir.”

So Tyrion asks & Tywin calls it Jaime's birthright knowing full well it is no longer. Tyrion points this out to him & also reiterates that Tywin already knows this. 
      
              
     

Quote

Lord Tywin’s eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless.
         “Casterly Rock,” he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, “Never.”

Never. Not no because this or that. Never. Never is, never was, never is going to be. 
      
              

Quote

      The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.
              I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue.
            I must have known. I must always have known. “Why?” he made himself ask, though he knew he would rue the question

18 years & he never asked why. Because he knew why. But he makes himself ask now. And Tywin's answer? 
      
              

Quote

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made,  devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning.

This is his answer. Nothing about whores or Tommen. He killed his mother & is ill-made among other things. He goes on. 
       

       

Quote

Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father’s sigil and his father’s before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

His father's sigil. The same father that did (in Tywin's eyes) turn CR into a "whore house" 

His reasoning is given plain & clear & it has naught to do with Tommen. He does claim at the end he doesn't want Tyrion to turn CR into a whore house but he has no evidence to suggest Tyrion would, this is just another excuse on his part. The "evidence" Tywin has that Tyrion may turn CR into a whore house:

      
              
     

Quote

“My whorehouse?” The dawn broke; Tyrion understood all at once where this bile had come from. He ground his teeth together and said, “Cersei told you about Alayaya.”

We know they have the wrong whore but the evidence is Tyrion brought a whore with him to KL. Something Tywin himself partakes in, in KL. 

              
     

Quote

“Is that her name? I confess, I cannot remember the names of all your whores. Who was the one you married as a boy?”
        “Tysha.” He spat out the answer, defiant.
              “And that camp follower on the Green Fork?”
               “Why do you care?” he asked, unwilling even to speak Shae’s name in his presence. “I don’t. No more than I care if they live or die.”

Tywin lists "all his whores" Tysha - who was not a whore, regardless of how Tywin viewed a peasant marrying Tyrion, she is not a whore & he knows it or he would not have needed to lie to Tyrion about her being such. 

Shae & Yaya. Yaya is actually not his whore so 2. 2 whores that we know of, or that Tywin knows of. 
            

      

Quote

“It was you who had Yaya whipped.” It was not a question.

And why did he have Yaya whipped? 
      
        

Quote

“Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons.” Lord Tywin’s voice was colder than ice. “Did she lie?”

Because Tyrion made threats against his nephews. He isn't denied CR because of this, that's plain & clear. His punishment for it was to have Yaya whipped. 

  
              

Quote

Tyrion would not deny it. “I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her.”

An ill-made threat, certainly, but born from compassion. 
              
     

Quote

“To save a whore’s virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that theway of it?”

         “You were the one who taught me that a good threat is often more telling than a blow.
         Not that Joffrey hasn’t tempted me sore a few hundred times. If you’re so anxious to whip people, start with him. But Tommen … why would I harm Tommen? He’s a goodlad, and mine own blood.”

He admits the threat but denies he would have actually harmed Tommen. I suppose he could be lying. Tywin doesn't trust it - and why? 
      
              
     

Quote

“As was your mother.” Lord Tywin rose abruptly, to tower over his dwarf son. “Go back to your bed, Tyrion, and speak to me no more of your rights to Casterly Rock.

Tyrion claims he would not have harmed Tommen because Tommen is good. Tywin seemingly doesn't by that reasoning because Joanna was good as well but it did not stop Tyrion from killing her. 

 

Quote

You shall have your reward, but it shall be one I deem appropriate to your service and station. And make no mistake—this was the last time I will suffer you to bring shame onto House Lannister. You are done with whores. The next one I find in your bed, I’ll hang.”

The next whore he finds in his bed - not the next time he is whoring "publicly" (which he has not done at this point & Tywin has not found one in his bed) the next whore he finds in his bed, he will hang because it brings shame to house Lannister. And yet, Tyrion finds a whore, one that was very recently in service to him, in his father's bed, bringing shame on house Lannister. The man is a vile hypocrite IMO.