Was Tyrion really treated terribly by his family?

[Nagini's Neville]

23 hours ago, Hrulj said:

He threatened to whip his own nephew over a whore.

Um, could you have phrased that anymore condescendingly? You know, that a sex worker is still a human being, as valuable as anyone else, right? On top of that, she is a really good human being, that did nothing wrong at all. She helped Tyrion and should not be punished for his weaknesses and mistakes. It was the right thing to do of him to do everything in his power (after the damage was done) to try to protect an her as an innocent person. That he threatened Tommen doesn't mean at all, that he would have gone through with it, but it is the only way he knows, that will put pressure on Cersei and make her not hurt Alayaya.

Since when is it a bad thing to try to protect an innocent person (especially if it's your fault, that they are in trouble). Tommen didn't have any disadvantage because of it, he wasn't harmed. People in these books constantly threaten harm on other characters to get what they want and often to actually prevent violence. Did you also think Jaime was going to kill Edmure's child or Sandor Sansa, or beat up Arya?

We have no right to judge Tyrion unless he had actually harmed Tommen. He didn't even threaten Tommen to his face the way Sandor did. He knows, that's the only weapon, that will work against Cersei so he uses it to save an innocent person- that was the right, the compassionate thing to do.

If your family constantly treats you like shit, like Tywin and Cersei did, you own them nothing at all (doesn't mean, that it would have been excusable to hurt Tommen- but he never actually did and I don't think he could have)

Freeing himself and the world of a psychopath-monster like Tywin was the best thing Tyrion ever did.

[Nagini's Neville]

On 8. Mai 2020 at 9:45 PM, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Tyrion is a dwarf.  That alone is enough to say he was born disadvantaged.  He was both treated badly by his family but also given the protection he would otherwise not have had.  It's a double-edged sword to be a Lannister dwarf.  It would have done Tyrion a lot of good to live as Oppo for a few years.  

What's an Oppo?

[Nagini's Neville]

20 hours ago, Hrulj said:

8. She's a whore. And he threatened his own flesh and blood over her. In a period where blood ties are all that matters. He's an idiot and that was a perfect showcase why he isn't fit to lead a circus nevermind Lannisters. 

Eh so what? why even keep on mentioning her profession like that? Do we take on the value system of Westeros now? They abused her for nothing. She is a human being just like Tommen. Good on Tyrion recognizing that. He tried to save her, I don't know what your problem is with that. If he'd actually hurt Tommen, it would have been a different matter- but he didn't. 

[Nagini's Neville]

21 hours ago, Hrulj said:

9. He deserved it. He himself admits that he does things like that to injure his own father. Mess with the bull, get the horns. 

Quote please. And same could be said for Tywin. As far as I remember only one of them is still alive and it's not Tywin.

21 hours ago, Hrulj said:

In essence no alliance, no swords, no support, and later on princess gets her face mutilated.

that's hardly his fault

21 hours ago, Hrulj said:

Vale would have been a better choice. Even Iron Islands.

yeah, that wouldn't have been a possibility at the time. The Vale doesn't respond and stays out of everything and the Iron Islands sure wouldn't have given up their opportunity to become independent again either- they didn't want to bend the knee to Joffrey. For sure not during Clash. Tyrion did pretty well with limited time at his hands with the resources he had. If it hadn't been for his trick with the chain and the wildfire things would have looked way worse for KL.

As far as I remember he did hire sellswords and that's not a good option at all, but the desperate one. The moment things look grim they switch sides or desert.

[Nagini's Neville]

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

@Bernie Mac

 

 

     

              
     

So Tyrion asks & Tywin calls it Jaime's birthright knowing full well it is no longer. Tyrion points this out to him & also reiterates that Tywin already knows this. 
      
              
     

Never. Not no because this or that. Never. Never is, never was, never is going to be. 
      
              

18 years & he never asked why. Because he knew why. But he makes himself ask now. And Tywin's answer? 
      
              

This is his answer. Nothing about whores or Tommen. He killed his mother & is ill-made among other things. He goes on. 
       

       

His father's sigil. The same father that did (in Tywin's eyes) turn CR into a "whore house" 

His reasoning is given plain & clear & it has naught to do with Tommen. He does claim at the end he doesn't want Tyrion to turn CR into a whore house but he has no evidence to suggest Tyrion would, this is just another excuse on his part. The "evidence" Tywin has that Tyrion may turn CR into a whore house:

      
              
     

We know they have the wrong whore but the evidence is Tyrion brought a whore with him to KL. Something Tywin himself partakes in, in KL. 

              
     

Tywin lists "all his whores" Tysha - who was not a whore, regardless of how Tywin viewed a peasant marrying Tyrion, she is not a whore & he knows it or he would not have needed to lie to Tyrion about her being such. 

Shae & Yaya. Yaya is actually not his whore so 2. 2 whores that we know of, or that Tywin knows of. 
            

      

And why did he have Yaya whipped? 
      
        

Because Tyrion made threats against his nephews. He isn't denied CR because of this, that's plain & clear. His punishment for it was to have Yaya whipped. 

  
              

An ill-made threat, certainly, but born from compassion. 
              
     

He admits the threat but denies he would have actually harmed Tommen. I suppose he could be lying. Tywin doesn't trust it - and why? 
      
              
     

Tyrion claims he would not have harmed Tommen because Tommen is good. Tywin seemingly doesn't by that reasoning because Joanna was good as well but it did not stop Tyrion from killing her. 

 

The next whore he finds in his bed - not the next time he is whoring "publicly" (which he has not done at this point & Tywin has not found one in his bed) the next whore he finds in his bed, he will hang because it brings shame to house Lannister. And yet, Tyrion finds a whore, one that was very recently in service to him, in his father's bed, bringing shame on house Lannister. The man is a vile hypocrite IMO. 

That was great! Tywin is a sick psychopath/sociopath without an once of empathy in his body. And no matter what Tyrion does he will always "bring shame" to house Lannister, because it is Tyrion that does it.

Tywin is also great at ignoring, that Cersei and Jaime are having sex, isn't he? No worries about shame for House Lannister in that regard. Or that Cersei keeps on seducing men to get her way. Every opportunity there is to hurt Tyrion Tywin gladly takes, because he hates Tyrion since the day he "murdered" his mother and to put that on a baby/child is plainly very abusive.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

16 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That was great! Tywin is a sick psychopath/sociopath without an once of empathy in his body. And no matter what Tyrion does he will always "bring shame" to house Lannister, because it is Tyrion that does it.

Tywin is also great at ignoring, that Cersei and Jaime are having sex, isn't he? No worries about shame for House Lannister in that regard. Or that Cersei keeps on seducing men to get her way. Every opportunity there is to hurt Tyrion Tywin gladly takes, because he hates Tyrion since the day he "murdered" his mother and to put that on a baby/child is plainly very abusive.

Agreed. Tywin is a hypocrite as well. 

[Darth Sidious]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

What's an Oppo?

Oppo.  Penny's brother.  The one who was mistaken for Tyrion.

[Hrulj]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Um, could you have phrased that anymore condescendingly? You know, that a sex worker is still a human being, as valuable as anyone else, right? On top of that, she is a really good human being, that did nothing wrong at all. She helped Tyrion and should not be punished for his weaknesses and mistakes. It was the right thing to do of him to do everything in his power (after the damage was done) to try to protect an her as an innocent person. That he threatened Tommen doesn't mean at all, that he would have gone through with it, but it is the only way he knows, that will put pressure on Cersei and make her not hurt Alayaya.

Since when is it a bad thing to try to protect an innocent person (especially if it's your fault, that they are in trouble). Tommen didn't have any disadvantage because of it, he wasn't harmed. People in these books constantly threaten harm on other characters to get what they want and often to actually prevent violence. Did you also think Jaime was going to kill Edmure's child or Sandor Sansa, or beat up Arya?

We have no right to judge Tyrion unless he had actually harmed Tommen. He didn't even threaten Tommen to his face the way Sandor did. He knows, that's the only weapon, that will work against Cersei so he uses it to save an innocent person- that was the right, the compassionate thing to do.

If your family constantly treats you like shit, like Tywin and Cersei did, you own them nothing at all (doesn't mean, that it would have been excusable to hurt Tommen- but he never actually did and I don't think he could have)

Freeing himself and the world of a psychopath-monster like Tywin was the best thing Tyrion ever did.

So was Hitler. What's your point? Actions cause judgement and in society like Westeros doubly so. 

A butchers son was murdered by the Hound and no one batted an eye. Even honorable Ned Stark. I don't think all lives are as valuable as you think. 

She didn't help him, she was paid to pretend to be his friend or lover or whatever. It was ridiculous. 

It's a huge taboo to breach and ultimately railroaded him into self destruction, exile, patricide and more. 

 

Jaime was threatening a child over a major fortification and ending of a war. Tyrion was threatening his own sweet child nephew over a whore. Two radically different things. Even if Jaime killed the kid I couldn't care less. 

Innocent she was not, in any way imaginable. He could have spared her all of that by not bringing her with him. Alas, Tyrion needs to dip his whick. 

If they treated him like shit he'd be dead. He could quite easily have an accident. Tyrion snarks and insults everyone, not just his own family but others, including enslaved prostitutes he fucks. He's an abusive little creep himself that can't take what he dishes out. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

13 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

butchers son was murdered by the Hound and no one batted an eye. Even honorable Ned Stark. I don't think all lives are as valuable as you think

That's how they think but I don't. 

14 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

She didn't help him, she was paid to pretend to be his friend or lover or whatever. It was ridiculous

No, you're thinking of Shae. Alayaya helped him, she wasn't his whore. 

15 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

It's a huge taboo to breach and ultimately railroaded him into self destruction, exile, patricide and more

What is a huge taboo to breach? Having a whore? It isn't at all. 

16 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Jaime was threatening a child over a major fortification and ending of a war. Tyrion was threatening his own sweet child nephew over a whore. Two radically different things. Even if Jaime killed the kid I couldn't care less. 

I'm not positive what you are saying here. It's justifiable for Jaime because it helped end the siege at RR but Tyrion is not because it was only to prevent the abuse of one woman? 

18 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Innocent she was not, in any way imaginable. He could have spared her all of that by not bringing her with him. Alas, Tyrion needs to dip his whick

I think maybe you should reread. Alayaya was already in KL, in a brothel there. Again, you have confused her with Shae. 

19 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

If they treated him like shit he'd be dead

Lol? Is the only way to treat someone like shit to kill them? I think not. 

20 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Tyrion snarks and insults everyone, not just his own family but others, including enslaved prostitutes he fucks. He's an abusive little creep himself that can't take what he dishes out. 

He's no angel certainly. I don't think one thing justifies the other though & it certainly doesn't negate it. If your argument is that he was mistreated but deserved it because x, y, & z, then fine but you can't say he wasn't mistreated AND that he deserved the mistreatment. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

So was Hitler. What's your point?

What's your point? Are you arguing in favor of Hitler now? lol

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

Actions cause judgement and in society like Westeros doubly so. 

Sure, but Tyrion doesn't even have to do anything to be the evil demon monkey in Westeros' society pov. That's because they have a medieval mid-set, that makes them believe what is on the outside is reflective of the inside. Tyrion is hated from the get go, because people think with his physical appearance he must be hated by the gods. They hate him solely for his appearance- nothing said about him frequenting sex workers at all. People hated him more and blamed him more, than Joffrey during the time of the riot, even though he was frequently shooting commoners with his crossbow, ordered fights to the death for no reason, had people's tongues cut out, order the Hound to butcher a man during the riot, while Tyrion tried to stop him. And he was hated more, than Cersei, who was believed to be an immoral "brother-fucked". There is no textual evidence, that Tyrion is despised for sleeping with prostitutes. Was King Bobby criticized or despised for that? No he wasn't. Nobody criticizes nobel men or any men for that matter for visiting brothels- it's socially acceptable.

"Tyrion is someone, who is easily cast as a villain. The dwarf, hated by the gods, so they twisted his body into unfortunate shape. So this is a clear sign of the evil inside him. This is how the medieval mindset worked" GRRM

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

A butchers son was murdered by the Hound and no one batted an eye. Even honorable Ned Stark. I don't think all lives are as valuable as you think. 

So we as readers should only see the human life as valuable, that is mourned over in universe? If we go by that Tywin's life is less valuable then Mycah's and Ned's since he wasn't mourned or missed by anyone except by complicated old Kev- nobody cared for him as a person at all. 

I don't know about your value system, but for me all innocent human life is equally valuable. 

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

She didn't help him, she was paid to pretend to be his friend or lover or whatever. It was ridiculous.

Um no! Alayaya was not paid to pretend to be his lover.

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

It's a huge taboo to breach and ultimately railroaded him into self destruction, exile, patricide and more. 

it's not a huge taboo at all. most men visit brothels in Westeros- doesn't make it right of course, but it's hardly a taboo. LF even owns several brothels and he is part of the small council.

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

Jaime was threatening a child over a major fortification and ending of a war. Tyrion was threatening his own sweet child nephew over a whore. Two radically different things.

No at all. They both threaten innocent children to save other. The important thing is, that they don't harm those children at all. Or do you actually think a sex worker are lesser human beings not worthy of protection? ( because honestly, that's how it comes across)

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

Even if Jaime killed the kid I couldn't care less. 

wow, okay. But you are the one, who is upset, that Tyrion only threatens to hurt Tommen with no indication at all, that he would have actually done it, knowing, that's the only thing, that will work against Cersei.

But you couldn't care less, if jaime had killed an innocent baby- talk about double standards 

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

Innocent she was not, in any way imaginable.

So a sex worker, who is doing the job she was paid for is not innocent? What is she guilty of? prostitution is legal in Westeros. Besides Alayaya was not even sleeping Tyrion. She was working in a brothel completely legally in Westeros- doing nothing wrong. Cersei falsely took her captive instead of Shae and had her brutally whipped just because she is cruel and to have control over Tyrion.

But even Shae was innocent- again there is nothing illegal about prostitution. 

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

He could have spared her all of that by not bringing her with him. 

if you are talking about Shae here I agree, to keep her save, he shouldn't have taken her to KL- but that is hardly her fault

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

Alas, Tyrion needs to dip his whick. 

dunno what's that supposed to mean.

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

If they treated him like shit he'd be dead.

No, he'd be dead is they murdered him

1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

Tyrion snarks and insults everyone, not just his own family but others, including enslaved prostitutes he fucks. He's an abusive little creep himself that can't take what he dishes out. 

well, he was abused first as a child before he became an "abusive little creep"

I find him abusive as well in later books (and am very critical of him) and occasionally even before that, but that doesn't change the fact, that Tywin severely abused and neglected him and Cersei as well.

[Hrulj]

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That's how they think but I don't. 

No, you're thinking of Shae. Alayaya helped him, she wasn't his whore. 

What is a huge taboo to breach? Having a whore? It isn't at all. 

I'm not positive what you are saying here. It's justifiable for Jaime because it helped end the siege at RR but Tyrion is not because it was only to prevent the abuse of one woman? 

I think maybe you should reread. Alayaya was already in KL, in a brothel there. Again, you have confused her with Shae. 

Lol? Is the only way to treat someone like shit to kill them? I think not. 

He's no angel certainly. I don't think one thing justifies the other though & it certainly doesn't negate it. If your argument is that he was mistreated but deserved it because x, y, & z, then fine but you can't say he wasn't mistreated AND that he deserved the mistreatment. 

How they think is all that matters in the context of the story. Capturing a city and then raping and stealing from everyone is a war crime in modern society for which you can and probably would be executed. It was perfectly normal and expected at the time. 
 

Threatening your own family. 
 

Yes. The child is not related to Jaime in any way whatsoever, it’s a child of his foe and threatening it ends the war. Tyrion is threatening his own nephew. Huge difference. 
 

He thinks it’s Shae  He threatens in order to keep the focus on Alayaya instead of Shae. Internally he’s relieved it’s Alayaya. 
 

Nope. But you can retract the protection given. You can not give them the gold they keep throwing around to make friends. It’s quite easy to hurt Tyrion gravely and cause his death by doing absolutely nothing. 
 

He wasn’t mistreated. That would imply he was treated unfairly or more harshly than he deserved. Actions have reactions and he was looking for them. 

10 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

What's your point? Are you arguing in favor of Hitler now? lol

Sure, but Tyrion doesn't even have to do anything to be the evil demon monkey in Westeros' society pov. That's because they have a medieval mid-set, that makes them believe what is on the outside is reflective of the inside. Tyrion is hated from the get go, because people think with his physical appearance he must be hated by the gods. They hate him solely for his appearance- nothing said about him frequenting sex workers at all. People hated him more and blamed him more, than Joffrey during the time of the riot, even though he was frequently shooting commoners with his crossbow, ordered fights to the death for no reason, had people's tongues cut out, order the Hound to butcher a man during the riot, while Tyrion tried to stop him. And he was hated more, than Cersei, who was believed to be an immoral "brother-fucked". There is no textual evidence, that Tyrion is despised for sleeping with prostitutes. Was King Bobby criticized or despised for that? No he wasn't. Nobody criticizes nobel men or any men for that matter for visiting brothels- it's socially acceptable.

"Tyrion is someone, who is easily cast as a villain. The dwarf, hated by the gods, so they twisted his body into unfortunate shape. So this is a clear sign of the evil inside him. This is how the medieval mindset worked" GRRM

So we as readers should only see the human life as valuable, that is mourned over in universe? If we go by that Tywin's life is less valuable then Mycah's and Ned's since he wasn't mourned or missed by anyone except by complicated old Kev- nobody cared for him as a person at all. 

I don't know about your value system, but for me all innocent human life is equally valuable. 

Um no! Alayaya was not paid to pretend to be his lover.

it's not a huge taboo at all. most men visit brothels in Westeros- doesn't make it right of course, but it's hardly a taboo. LF even owns several brothels and he is part of the small council.

No at all. They both threaten innocent children to save other. The important thing is, that they don't harm those children at all. Or do you actually think a sex worker are lesser human beings not worthy of protection? ( because honestly, that's how it comes across)

wow, okay. But you are the one, who is upset, that Tyrion only threatens to hurt Tommen with no indication at all, that he would have actually done it, knowing, that's the only thing, that will work against Cersei.

But you couldn't care less, if jaime had killed an innocent baby- talk about double standards 

So a sex worker, who is doing the job she was paid for is not innocent? What is she guilty of? prostitution is legal in Westeros. Besides Alayaya was not even sleeping Tyrion. She was working in a brothel completely legally in Westeros- doing nothing wrong. Cersei falsely took her captive instead of Shae and had her brutally whipped just because she is cruel and to have control over Tyrion.

But even Shae was innocent- again there is nothing illegal about prostitution. 

if you are talking about Shae here I agree, to keep her save, he shouldn't have taken her to KL- but that is hardly her fault

dunno what's that supposed to mean.

No, he'd be dead is they murdered him

well, he was abused first as a child before he became an "abusive little creep"

I find him abusive as well in later books (and am very critical of him) and occasionally even before that, but that doesn't change the fact, that Tywin severely abused and neglected him and Cersei as well.

What was yours is a better question. Being human means nothing. 
 

Tyrion has ample chance to change minds and win hearts. He never tried. He allowed his public image to be dictated by his sister and commoners. That didn’t stop him however for killing a singer in cold blood, torturing good old Pycelle etc. His actions were unexplained to public and showcased a monster. 
 

Tyrion already had a reputation as an imp, a drunkardly, whoring, lecherous and wastrel son of Tywin. It’s not just his looks as much as he internally monologues about it. 
 

Tywin is a lord paramount. His life is worth more. In grand scheme of things lives of whores are about as low as they go. 
 

To me it’s not and to the world it’s not as much as we may pretend otherwise. Go run at a president to shake his hand or give him a hug and you’ll be filled with more holes than wormwood. And no one will bat an eye. Wife of a diplomat in London killed a man in cold blood with her speeding car, fled the scene and wasn’t even arrested due to diplomatic immunity. It may be unsavory to bring it up but believe me lives are graded in worth even today. 
 

Alayaya was a victim of circumstance for which Tyrion was relieved to not be Shae. He threatened to keep focus off of Shae. It changes nothing. 
 

Most men don’t build their entire persona about it. Most are discrete or keep it somewhat under wraps. Brothel scenes find many lords in them, some with women and some with men, some with boys and even girls but it’s not public knowledge and it’s always meant as somewhat of a surprise. 
 

My view of prostitution is negative however that doesn’t matter. What matters is the story in which blood is the most important thing. Threatening an outsider, be it a prostitute, a butchers son, noble, maester etc does not carry the same value as threatening your own blood. Kinslaying is the greatest crime in Westeros society. 
 

Threats are an indication to the public. You can’t be outraged at hate when you go spewing out vile stuff like that. What do my internal thoughts matter if I go around threatening vile things. He internally monologues about doing it or not and how he’d have to do it to not look weak. He’s demented. 
 

Baby is not related to him and he does it to stop a war. 
 

Legal and moral innocence are two different things. Secondly innocence of Shae or Alayaya doesn’t matter. They could be saints come to life. They are threatened because of Tyrion. Alayaya by mistake since Cersei thought her to be Shae and Tyrion’s prostitute lover. 
 

It’s Tyrion’s fault. Shae doesn’t enter into it. 
 

Meaning Tyrion puts in jeopardy himself and his position over his sex addiction. He was hand of the king. He had a chance to prove his worth to his father. He jeopardized it and ruined it from the get go by bringing a whore with him. His downfall and arrest for Jeofreys murder come from the threat he made in order to protect the whore who shouldn’t have been here in the first place. Alayaya wouldn’t have even been a thing if it wasn’t known that Tyrion has a prostitute in his permanent employ as a lover. Tyrion is then given Sansa Stark, quite a catch and he wasted it completely. He confirms time and time again why he shouldn’t be heir and why Tywin should despise him. 

[Lord Varys]

If you check the time line, Tyrion and Tywin did not live together for the first 7-8 years of his life. There wouldn't have been much 'mistreatment' there. Tywin was Hand of the King and Tyrion lived at the Rock. There would have been infrequent visits back home but it stands to reason that Tywin had better things to do then than to harass his preteen dwarf son. From 281 AC onwards Tywin was at home so from that point on Tywin may have been mean to him. But Tyrion's early childhood should have been pretty happy unless other relatives we don't know anything about treated him badly, too. I have trouble imagining, though, that any servants, retainers, or relations of Lord Tywin dared to treat his son badly. He was a Lannister of Casterly Rock, after all. We know Tyrion was a lonely child, so he likely had no companions to play with, etc. That is sad, but not mistreatment.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

24 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

How they think is all that matters in the context of the story

Not at all. We can and, I think, should discuss things as to how they are viewed in & out of universe. 

25 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Capturing a city and then raping and stealing from everyone is a war crime in modern society for which you can and probably would be executed. It was perfectly normal and expected at the time. 

This doesn't have anything to do with what we are discussing. Yes, things are viewed differently in universe vs IRL. That doesn't mean we have to or even should argue things from their view point. We can, certainly, & it's a worthwhile discussion but it isn't the only discussion to be had. 

27 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Threatening your own family. 

I don't suppose you will provide any evidence that threatening your family is a "huge taboo to breach" in universe because I've asked for evidence of some of your other claims & you have not provided any, but I'll ask again anyway - do you have any evidence? Tyrion threatens Tommen, Tywin threatens Tyrion, Joff threatens Tyrion, Tyrion threatens Joff, Cersei threatens Tyrion etc. He is hardly the only one in universe or even in his family to threaten a family member. 

30 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Yes. The child is not related to Jaime in any way whatsoever, it’s a child of his foe and threatening it ends the war. Tyrion is threatening his own nephew. Huge difference

It doesn't end the war, it ends the siege. Tyrion threatening his nephew is meant to prevent an innocent woman being abused. It could be argued Tyrion's motivation for the threat is more honorable & compassionate than Jaime's. 

32 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

He thinks it’s Shae  He threatens in order to keep the focus on Alayaya instead of Shae. Internally he’s relieved it’s Alayaya.

No, at this point he knows it's Alayaya. 

At any rate you said she was not innocent - she is

That Tyrion could have avoided all of this by not bringing her to KL - He didn't bring her to KL

He wanted to have sex - He didn't have sex with her. 

Your claims were false. 

34 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

Nope. But you can retract the protection given. You can not give them the gold they keep throwing around to make friends. It’s quite easy to hurt Tyrion gravely and cause his death by doing absolutely nothing

This does nothing to credit or discredit any evidence of Tyrion being mistreated. 

35 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

He wasn’t mistreated. That would imply he was treated unfairly or more harshly than he deserved. Actions have reactions and he was looking for them. 

I would call gang raping a man's wife in front of him & bidding him to participate a pretty unfair punishment for marrying below his station. I would also call whipping an innocent woman because of a threat made (not by her) pretty unfair as well. Trying to have someone killed because you don't like them - also unfair. Denying a birthright because the woman you loved died in childbirth & bore you a dwarf, also unfair. Not helping to defend your son against a wrongful murder charge, when you have the power to do so, also unfair, but to each their own. 

I will ask again though, as this is the second time you made this claim, what is your evidence that Tyrion does things for the purpose of angering his father? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you check the time line, Tyrion and Tywin did not live together for the first 7-8 years of his life. There wouldn't have been much 'mistreatment' there. Tywin was Hand of the King and Tyrion lived at the Rock. There would have been infrequent visits back home but it stands to reason that Tywin had better things to do then than to harass his preteen dwarf son. From 281 AC onwards Tywin was at home so from that point on Tywin may have been mean to him. But Tyrion's early childhood should have been pretty happy unless other relatives we don't know anything about treated him badly, too. I have trouble imagining, though, that any servants, retainers, or relations of Lord Tywin dared to treat his son badly. He was a Lannister of Casterly Rock, after all. We know Tyrion was a lonely child, so he likely had no companions to play with, etc. That is sad, but not mistreatment.

I agree, but would note that there is a very real possibility Cersei mistreated him during his childhood. 

[Hrulj]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not at all. We can and, I think, should discuss things as to how they are viewed in & out of universe. 

This doesn't have anything to do with what we are discussing. Yes, things are viewed differently in universe vs IRL. That doesn't mean we have to or even should argue things from their view point. We can, certainly, & it's a worthwhile discussion but it isn't the only discussion to be had. 

I don't suppose you will provide any evidence that threatening your family is a "huge taboo to breach" in universe because I've asked for evidence of some of your other claims & you have not provided any, but I'll ask again anyway - do you have any evidence? Tyrion threatens Tommen, Tywin threatens Tyrion, Joff threatens Tyrion, Tyrion threatens Joff, Cersei threatens Tyrion etc. He is hardly the only one in universe or even in his family to threaten a family member. 

It doesn't end the war, it ends the siege. Tyrion threatening his nephew is meant to prevent an innocent woman being abused. It could be argued Tyrion's motivation for the threat is more honorable & compassionate than Jaime's. 

No, at this point he knows it's Alayaya. 

At any rate you said she was not innocent - she is

That Tyrion could have avoided all of this by not bringing her to KL - He didn't bring her to KL

He wanted to have sex - He didn't have sex with her. 

Your claims were false. 

This does nothing to credit or discredit any evidence of Tyrion being mistreated. 

I would call gang raping a man's wife in front of him & bidding him to participate a pretty unfair punishment for marrying below his station. I would also call whipping an innocent woman because of a threat made (not by her) pretty unfair as well. Trying to have someone killed because you don't like them - also unfair. Denying a birthright because the woman you loved died in childbirth & bore you a dwarf, also unfair. Not helping to defend your son against a wrongful murder charge, when you have the power to do so, also unfair, but to each their own. 

I will ask again though, as this is the second time you made this claim, what is your evidence that Tyrion does things for the purpose of angering his father? 

And how are they viewed? Trough Western lense only? What about the Islamic lense? Or Far Eastern? Budhist lense? How about fundamentalist christian lense of seeing it? There is not a single lense to view things trough, it's subjective and can bring people to greatly different conclusions. In universe is the only objective way to see it and make judgement. 

 

I don't have the book on me. Ned Stark betrays his honor for the sake of his daughters. Tywin starts a war over Tyrion he despises because family is all. He then goes on to fight almost every kingdom for his grandson. Family is all. Tyrion gets appointed as hand of the king, to both show himself worthy and because family is all. Kevan is indispensable because family is all. Starks, Tully's make horrible, war loosing decisions because family is all. Kinslaying is the worst crime in Westeros, because family is all. Westerlands invaded the Iron Isles when son of a Lannister woman took the throne and gouged her eyes out for bringing Greenland traditions there. Family is all. 

What war is there after Riverrun falls?  Who to rally to against Lannisters? War is over.

I don't have the book on me. In which case the discussion is over. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Hrulj said:

And how are they viewed? Trough Western lense only? What about the Islamic lense? Or Far Eastern? Budhist lense? How about fundamentalist christian lense of seeing it? There is not a single lense to view things trough, it's subjective and can bring people to greatly different conclusions. In universe is the only objective way to see it and make judgement

They are viewed differently by different peoples, as you said but viewing through an "in universe" lens isn't objective either. They are all subjective. 

2 hours ago, Hrulj said:

Ned Stark betrays his honor for the sake of his daughters. Tywin starts a war over Tyrion he despises because family is all. He then goes on to fight almost every kingdom for his grandson. Family is all. Tyrion gets appointed as hand of the king, to both show himself worthy and because family is all. Kevan is indispensable because family is all. Starks, Tully's make horrible, war loosing decisions because family is all.

None of this means threatening a family member is a huge breech. The Lannisters in particular make somewhat a habit of threatening family members & some times carry out those threats. 

Also, as you've stated some have made poor &/or misguided decisions based on family being all. I'm not saying they are wrong, because to me family is all, but it definitely could & is argued that isn't a good thing. 

I'm in agreement that, generally speaking, nice, good people don't typically threaten their family members but your claim that it is a huge taboo breach in universe is baseless. 

2 hours ago, Hrulj said:

Kinslaying is the worst crime in Westeros, because family is all. Westerlands invaded the Iron Isles when son of a Lannister woman took the throne and gouged her eyes out for bringing Greenland traditions there. Family is all. 

Kinslaying is a very bad crime in universe but where did I argue it wasn't? We weren't talking about kinslaying, we were talking about threatening family members. 

2 hours ago, Hrulj said:

What war is there after Riverrun falls?  Who to rally to against Lannisters? War is over

Sure, because that was the last siege but Jaime's act was to end the siege, not the war. Had it not been the last siege it would not have ended the war. 

2 hours ago, Hrulj said:

don't have the book on me. In which case the discussion is over.

That's fine. 

[Lion of the West]

Tyrion was treated badly by two relatives but one of them was perhaps the single most important figure in his life so I think I understand if that made a very, very big impact on his whole personality and worldview.

If Tyrion's own father had been there for him, then I think that Tyrion would have taken a lesser hit even if like half the Lannister clan were horrible to him.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Tyrion says he dreamed about setting his own sister and father on fire. I dont know if Cersei or Tywin ever wished that kind of death for Tyrion when they were young. While they probably engaged in psychological harm to him, Tyrion has it in him to be more physically sadistic with his own family. 

[frenin]

11 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Tyrion says he dreamed about setting his own sister and father on fire. I dont know if Cersei or Tywin ever wished that kind of death for Tyrion when they were young. While they probably engaged in psychological harm to him, Tyrion has it in him to be more physically sadistic with his own family. 

No, Cersei only wished to a newborn to die soon... Iirc the Tyrion who dreamed that was ADWD Tyrion, who was rightfully done with his family.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

No, Cersei only wished to a newborn to die soon... Iirc the Tyrion who dreamed that was ADWD Tyrion, who was rightfully done with his family.

When did Cersei wish a horrible death on him when he was a baby? She calls him a monster because she thinks he killed her mother, but she isnt like, SET HIM ON FIRE!!

Tyrion says this in his 2nd chapter in AGOT:

“I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination.”

Even Jon who was treated poorly by Cat is like...da fuq?