Jump to content

Who is the Grey girl in Melisandre's fires?


Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm assuming she'll be wearing the same clothes that she escaped Winterfell in. She is wearing furs when she arrives at the crofter's village.

Same here. The spearwives disguise themselves before going to Jeyne, but I’m not sure we get a description of what they’re wearing. 

7 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:
I think there is a metaphorical meaning to it. I always took crumbling and blowing away to mean that the girl was going to die and be burned.

Could very well be. Could also be that she’s not who she “claims”, or even that she’s not who Mel claims/thinks she is. 

7 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But like I said, it's the location of Karhold in relation to Castle Black and Long Lake that's the snag that Alys is the girl on the dying horse. Otherwise, I'm not really bogged down by it.

Yeah, I hear you. But Alys *could* have gone towards LL/KR then changed her mind. Or something.

7 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Nothing. They're just not in it. The vision didn't seem to be long as far as I understand and she says that she hasn't been able to find the girl again. 

Definitely a possibility. 

7 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The vision that Mel seems to have the most contest for and the better handle on is Jon's stabbing, but I think that it's because it's a recurring vision that she is able to gauge it properly. 

I’m not so sure. I mean, if, and that’s a huge if for me, Mel really has a good grasp/interpretation of this one then something is off. She tells Jon that he should worry about those who smile to his face and sharpen their knives behind his back. That’s not Marsh imo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Could very well be. Could also be that she’s not who she “claims”, or even that she’s not who Mel claims/thinks she is. 

 

That's a good point. 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m not so sure. I mean, if, and that’s a huge if for me, Mel really has a good grasp/interpretation of this one then something is off. She tells Jon that he should worry about those who smile to his face and sharpen their knives behind his back. That’s not Marsh imo.

Marsh doesn't, that's true. But someone like Left Hand Lew who is a steward is a person that Jon had enough trust in that he is part of Sam's escort to Eastwatch, that he guards his door. He is with Marsh when Jon reads the PL and leaves the Shieldhall with him and the other stewards.

Mully is another steward that Jon uses a lot and seems to trust. That's the steward Ghost tried to bite. Mully is used to help bring Janos Slynt to heel, he is there when the eyeless heads of the 3 ranges are found impaled, he escorts Val north of the Wall when she leaves to find Tormund (which means he might have been the one to tell Marsh about it). He is not part of the Great Ranging, but he is there to help defend CB against the wildling attack. He is one of those named as congratulating Jon when he is named LC.

If he is one of the conspirators, then I think he fits the description given by Mel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:
Marsh doesn't, that's true. But someone like Left Hand Lew who is a steward is a person that Jon had enough trust in that he is part of Sam's escort to Eastwatch, that he guards his door. He is with Marsh when Jon reads the PL and leaves the Shieldhall with him and the other stewards.
 
Mully is another steward that Jon uses a lot and seems to trust. That's the steward Ghost tried to bite. Mully is used to help bring Janos Slynt to heel, he is there when the eyeless heads of the 3 ranges are found impaled, he escorts Val north of the Wall when she leaves to find Tormund (which means he might have been the one to tell Marsh about it). He is not part of the Great Ranging, but he is there to help defend CB against the wildling attack. He is one of those named as congratulating Jon when he is named LC.

If he is one of the conspirators, then I think he fits the description given by Mel.

Can’t break up your post for whatever reason.  Yeah, Lew might be involved, I think he’s a good candidate.

Now, Mully I disagree. I think Mully is a red herring candidate, so to speak. 

When Jon receives the PL Mully tells him:

“Mully added his two groats. “My old grandmother always used to say, Summer friends will melt away like summer snows, but winter friends are friends forever.”

In and of itself it doesn’t prove anything, of course. But it seems to suggest he is a northerner himself, and if you’re a northerner and not a Bolton, chances are you are a Stark loyalist. He’s also not a young man, so maybe less likely to be talked into joining in w/ Marsh and whoever else. Lastly, and this is just my take on it, of course, Mully is named after the first cat Martin and Parris had together. A ginger cat... and I know a lot of people disagree, but imo (and his own) Martin is a romantic, so I don’t think he’s going to make the character he named after the first cat he had w/ the love of his life and wife be a backstabbing traitor. :)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am going to take her prophecy more literally. She said it was his sister, so it's Arya or Sansa for sure. How could one of them travel all the way from where they are now to the Wall? I have no clue, but Mel has to be right. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/3/2020 at 1:21 PM, Vaith said:

Some will say it hasn't been solved, but I personally do think it was Alys.

The plan is for Jeyne to go north as of the TWOW sample chapters, but Alys fits the bill better.

 No, it is literally stated that it is Alys. Folks that say otherwise  don't know how to read 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 No, it is literally stated that it is Alys. Folks that say otherwise  don't know how to read 

Alys was probably nowhere near Long Lake on her flight to the Wall - that would be really out of the way.

Mel probably got the wrong sister. Every prophecy has to have a play on words and meaning while still meeting all criteria. Alys doesnt really fulfill that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Alys was probably nowhere near Long Lake on her flight to the Wall - that would be really out of the way.

Yup. Seems only a few people can see that obvious glaring fact. It really changes the whole dynamic of the vision if the grey girl is not in the North.

Quote

Mel probably got the wrong sister. Every prophecy has to have a play on words and meaning while still meeting all criteria. Alys doesnt really fulfill that. 

What do you mean? Can you explain some more. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

I am going to take her prophecy more literally. She said it was his sister, so it's Arya or Sansa for sure. How could one of them travel all the way from where they are now to the Wall? I have no clue, but Mel has to be right. 

Mel is often right and wrong. See one of her first prophesies. She saw Renly dying at Storm's End and Renly defeating Stannis in King's Landings. Both were right! But she misunderstood the signs. Same here.

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Alys was probably nowhere near Long Lake on her flight to the Wall - that would be really out of the way.

People have pointed this before. It might be something. It might be nothing. It might be a GRRM's mistake. It might just mean that Alys tried to evade her captors going another way.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@kissdbyfireThe spearwives were "Clad as serving girls in layers of drab grey roughspun," when they went to rescue Jeyne. Jeyne then swapped clothes with Squirrel. I think it is probably Jeyne but Lyanna remains a possibility in my opinion. Alys Karstark seems an obvious red herring to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

I am going to take her prophecy more literally. She said it was his sister, so it's Arya or Sansa for sure. How could one of them travel all the way from where they are now to the Wall? I have no clue, but Mel has to be right. 

Please elaborate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

@kissdbyfireThe spearwives were "Clad as serving girls in layers of drab grey roughspun," when they went to rescue Jeyne. Jeyne then swapped clothes with Squirrel. I think it is probably Jeyne but Lyanna remains a possibility in my opinion. Alys Karstark seems an obvious red herring to me.

I tried to find a description of what they were wearing but couldn’t. I obviously didn’t try hard enough. :D

ETA: I still don’t think it’s Jeyne... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mel must have seen the girl's face and her dying horse. If the face of the girl she saw did not match Alys Karstark, or if her dying horse had a different color or gender, you would expect Mel to tell Jon just that when he was blasting her about being wrong in her visions. People need to understand that GRRM's storytelling is far more straightforward than what many online fans imagine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/3/2020 at 8:50 PM, Tai Pan said:

Jon based his decision on this bit of information.  Which is an example of prophecy leading people astray.  Jon betrayed the NW to save this girl who he believed was Arya Stark. 

No. He learned, long before making his decision to attack Winterfell, that the "girl in gray" was in fact Alys Karstark. It was Ramsey Snow's "pink letter", bragging that he had Arya and had married her, and had killed Stannis and defeated his armies, that caused Jon to rally volunteers to advance upon Winterfell. Not Melisandre's prophesy.

59 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Mel must have seen the girl's face and her dying horse. If the face of the girl she saw did not match Alys Karstark, or if her dying horse had a different color or gender, you would expect Mel to tell Jon ...

Wait a minute! When did Melisandre ever meet Arya? When did she meet Alys? How could Melisandre possibly "recognize" either one, even if her visions clearly revealed the mystery girl's face? Remember, they don't have photos. Portraits appear to all but nonexistent, too. I can't help but think of poor Brienne of Tarth, searching for Sansa Stark, and all she knows is Sansa's approximate age, that she has reddish-brown hair, and looks good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

People have pointed this before. It might be something. It might be nothing. It might be a GRRM's mistake.

It's just interesting that readers prefer to hold Mel's false-truths - that were based on her admitted desire to convince Jon. (i.e. She sees a girl fleeing and attaches the idea of her "fleeing from a marriage" in order to hook in Jon with the idea of Arya) Mel has a track record of such behavior. Then GRRM quickly serves up the supposed answer to this vision with a red-herring despite the cracks he has carefully placed in front of us. Crack one can't be explained away, so people just ignore it.

Quote

It might just mean that Alys tried to evade her captors going another way.

Alys deciding to go to the opposite side of Long Lake, to outsmart her pursuers, doesn't suddenly unfreeze a deeply frozen lake that does not match the description George added in Mel's chapter. Imagine journeying to other side of Long Lake only to end up near the dangerous King's Road and right by a village no less. Doesn't seem like a very clever girl to me. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, a black swan said:

It's just interesting that readers prefer to hold Mel's false-truths - that were based on her admitted desire to convince Jon. (i.e. She sees a girl fleeing and attaches the idea of her "fleeing from a marriage" in order to hook in Jon with the idea of Arya) Mel has a track record of such behavior.

It's not exactly the same. With Eastwatch, she rationalised it. With the grey girl, it was part of the vision, that's how she described it. A vision with subtitles.

'She was racing to him for protection, that much Melisandre had seen clearly.'

ETA

'I have seen your sister in my fires, fleeing from this marriage they have made for her. Coming here, to you. A girl in grey on a dying horse, I have seen it plain as day.'

Quote

Alys deciding to go to the opposite side of Long Lake, to outsmart her pursuers, doesn't suddenly unfreeze a deeply frozen lake that does not match the description George added in Mel's chapter. Imagine journeying to other side of Long Lake only to end up near the dangerous King's Road and right by a village no less. Doesn't seem like a very clever girl to me. 

But do we know as a fact that Long Lake is frozen? (is that where Stannis is?) Long Lake is a very large body of water, and might take longer to freeze, especially if it's fed from relatively warmer water (volcannic, maybe).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

But do we know as a fact that Long Lake is frozen? (is that where Stannis is?) Long Lake is a very large body of water, and might take longer to freeze, especially if it's fed from relatively warmer water (volcannic, maybe).

The ice is just starting to form, so it's not frozen solid or anything like that. 

 

"I saw water. Deep and blue and still, with a thin coat of ice just forming on it. It seemed to go on forever." (Mel I, ADwD 31)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, zandru said:

Wait a minute! When did Melisandre ever meet Arya? When did she meet Alys? How could Melisandre possibly "recognize" either one, even if her visions clearly revealed the mystery girl's face? Remember, they don't have photos. Portraits appear to all but nonexistent, too. I can't help but think of poor Brienne of Tarth, searching for Sansa Stark, and all she knows is Sansa's approximate age, that she has reddish-brown hair, and looks good.

I didn't say Mel saw Arya. Mel saw a girl in her vision and then she saw Alys when she arrived to the Wall. Considering that Mel is the one who administered the wedding of Alys to Sigorn, she should have had a real good, close look on Alys. And if Alys was not the girl she saw in her vision, she would have told so. Same for the horse of Alys and the horse she saw on her vision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, a black swan said:

Yup. Seems only a few people can see that obvious glaring fact. It really changes the whole dynamic of the vision if the grey girl is not in the North.

Agreed. She's also not wearing grey. If she was in fact the "girl in grey" the author would have had her wear it - THAT is when GRRM becomes straightforward in his writing. Instead she's wearing an oversized black cloak, probably given to her by the Night's Watch. He would have flubbed TWO details if she was indeed Alys.

Interestingly, he even made Alys look enough like Arya "to give [Jon] pause." Mel knows what Jon looks like. She could be confusing Alys-almost-like-Arya look to conclude that they are related. However I think it's the sister that looks the least like him. I think it will be happy accident that it is indeed his other sister fleeing her marriage to Harry, coming from the south. She will wear grey (Stark colors) and will be near Long Lake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...