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King Adrian Storm

Arya's storyline going forward

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40 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Arya loved Ned with all her heart and was fiercely loyal to him, but she wouldn’t give up Jon even to him. Jon is the key to Arya’s journey back to Westeros and her break with the FM. Jon is the key to her finding herself again. She knew Jon would not give up on her even if her mother and Robb did, and she gave up everything to become “no one” except Needle. I know gifting LS mercy is a popular theory when it comes to Arya’s story, but I think it’s Jon or something related to him that will make Arya turn away from anger, pain, and fear, which are the emotions that are driving her now.

It'll be interesting to see the changed resurrected Jon meet the equally transformed Arya. Death has touched them both in different ways.

How do you think Robb's Will gets reintroduced in the next book? Especially with the strong hints that LS has her own plans for Robb's crown which never seem to factor in Jon. 

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1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Don’t worry, many on this forum think like you. She’s not insane, cruel, evil, or too far gone. Far from it. I think Arya is one of the most empathetic characters in the story. Even as a child, she could identify with people different from her, people from a different class and station than herself. She could recognize people for who they are and not as how society defined them. In some ways, you can compare Arya’s arc to that of a child soldier, but that also does not fully explain it. Like a child soldier, she is slowly becoming desensitized to violence. Nevertheless, even now in the books, she still questions and rationalizes her kills, which I don’t think fully conditioned child soldiers would do. Now, I’m not arguing that Arya’s doubts absolve her from her killings, it just shows that she’s not “far gone” as some would like to state/ believe. Arya Stark is still very much part of her personality — her motivation, thoughts, and fears.

Happy to hear it:)
I agree, she is really empathetic, this is the girl who felt sorry for the fleas in her clothes when she needed to wash.
Her love and empathy for the smallfolk is what truly endeared her to me. There was no way for me not to love the little girl who defended a "nobody" like Mycah from the crown prince.
And yeah, the fact that she needed to hear about the insurance man cheating widows to kill him says a lot, she still has a sense of justice, and right and wrong,

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Arya loved Ned with all her heart and was fiercely loyal to him, but she wouldn’t give up Jon even to him. Jon is the key to Arya’s journey back to Westeros and her break with the FM. Jon is the key to her finding herself again. She knew Jon would not give up on her even if her mother and Robb did, and she gave up everything to become “no one” except Needle. I know gifting LS mercy is a popular theory when it comes to Arya’s story, but I think it’s Jon or something related to him that will make Arya turn away from anger, pain, and fear, which are the emotions that are driving her now.

I agree, Jon is really important to Arya, and she to him.
I think they could be considered platonic soulmates, there's a reason GRRM has written Jon to think of Arya as his heart and him as her home, though I don't really know what that reason is yet.
I think there's too many connections between LSH and Arya for it not to lead to something though.

1 hour ago, a black swan said:

I agree with almost all of this. Very well said.  :)

How much has she changed from Book 1 in your opinion? Despite all the trauma, beatings, and violence - Arya still feels happiness living the most simple life on that canal as Cat. She isn't alone in the days and when she sleeps she has Nymeria and her wolf pack. Similarly, as Mercy she feels connected to yet another simple life. She's grown a lot in Braavos and going back home will be challenging especially if she has to face her demons. Finding peace a different way than just her List will be a big development for her. Her mother should play role in that shift in Arya. 

Do you think she'll ever see Sandor again? 

The biggest change is maybe that she's less open now than she used to be? Her friendships in Braavos are more, I don't really know the right word, maybe shallow? While she still befriends new people, she doesn't trust anyone with her heart anymore, she no longer has anyone to share her secrets with.
She also doesn't feel as bad for killing people as she used to, though that might be because she has only killed people she's considers guilty since she arrived in Braavos (Dareon is still in her nightmare though).
I agree, it will be really interesting to see her face her past.

As for Sandor, I don't really know? I'm not his biggest fan, but I know GRRM seems to like SanSan (enough for him to ask for them to be drawn instead of someone else for the 2012 calendar), so Sandor might return to play a part in Sansa's story, and since Arya and Sansa are most likely going to meet again, maybe?
 

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On 5/5/2020 at 1:44 PM, King Adrian Storm said:

My prediction for where Arya's storyline will go:

We've seen the pre released chapter for Arya is called Mercy. I think this could have a bigger meaning going forward for Arya. In Twow I predict Arya will get a mission that brings her to Westeros. I don't know what name it will be, but it'll be somewhere around the twins. At this time in the story I think lady stoneheart will have a red wedding 2.0. When it's finished, Arya will come across LS, and they will have some sort of reunion. Once Catelyn finally gets her revenge, and sees that her children are alive Arya will put her out of her misery, and kill her as a mercy. This will be really hard on Arya. Then, in the final book Arya might join her wolfpack and fight the Others. The ending to her arc imo will be her finding Cersei, and having the chance to kill her. Just before she does, she will be reminded of Lady Stoneheart, A broken woman who is devestated by the loss of her children. I think this will cause Arya to have mercy on Cersei, and walk away from her revenge killings. And in the end she will return to Winterfell.

Your piece is a thorough re-write of the novel.  The Arya in your novel is not the Arya in aSoIaF.  The real Arya is a cold-blooded murderer who feels very little remorse.  She's crazy.  I have read a few of your posts and you have been very busy creating good outcomes for the people you like and negative endings for the people you don't.  Which is fine but the problem is you are presenting this as a prediction based on aSoIaF. 

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2 minutes ago, Mon ami said:

Your piece is a thorough re-write of the novel.  The Arya in your novel is not the Arya in aSoIaF.  The real Arya is a cold-blooded murderer who feels very little remorse.  She's crazy.  I have read a few of your posts and you have been very busy creating good outcomes for the people you like and negative endings for the people you don't.  Which is fine but the problem is you are presenting this as a prediction based on aSoIaF. 

As opposed to your take on Arya, which is so perfectly faithful and accurate that I now think you must be George Raymond Richard Martin, posting under an alias. /s

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8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

As opposed to your take on Arya, which is so perfectly faithful and accurate that I now think you must be George Raymond Richard Martin, posting under an alias. /s

My assessment of Arya is faithful to Martin's novel.  The murders of the elderly insurance underwriter, the crow brother, and Rafford were the acts of a cold-blooded killer who felt no remorse.

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9 minutes ago, Mon ami said:

My assessment of Arya is faithful to Martin's novel.  The murders of the elderly insurance underwriter, the crow brother, and Rafford were the acts of a cold-blooded killer who felt no remorse.

No, they are not. Not by a long shot. It seems that your assessment is coloured by your personal likes and dislikes. And that’s fine, to each their own. But when you state your opinion as if it’s an undisputed fact you sound as someone who hasn’t read the books at all, or if you did, someone who seriously misunderstood a hell of whole lot. 

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19 minutes ago, Mon ami said:

My assessment of Arya is faithful to Martin's novel.  The murders of the elderly insurance underwriter, the crow brother, and Rafford were the acts of a cold-blooded killer who felt no remorse.

Some of Arya's fans are no longer interested in accuracy.  They are so desperate to defend her no matter what.  They have blinded themselves. They can no longer see what they should.  

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Posted (edited)
Just now, kissdbyfire said:

No, they are not. Not by a long shot. It seems that your assessment is coloured by your personal likes and dislikes. And that’s fine, to each their own. But when you state your opinion as if it’s an undisputed fact you sound as someone who hasn’t read the books at all, or if you did, someone who seriously misunderstood a hell of whole lot. 

All of the killings cited do show a pattern of a cold blooded killer.  Are you saying Arya has shown remorse for killing the insurance man?  I don't think so. 

Edited by Mon ami

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Posted (edited)
On 5. Mai 2020 at 8:31 PM, zandru said:

We have to bear in mind that there will be no happy endings.

Why?

Not everyone will get one. But there is sweet in bittersweet - why's that always ignored? :dunno: self-protection ? ;)

GRRM has repeatedly said his world view couldn't be further away from a nihilistic one.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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Arya is a killer who feel very little guilt.  The hit on the man selling insurance was not self-defense.  It was premeditated murder.  It seems fair to me if readers think she's mentally ill.  One does not need to dislike Arya in order to reach that conclusion.  An objective person would read those text and rightly say Arya felt no pity for the folks she killed.

*I am making the assumption on how the word "cold-blooded" is being used in this discussion.  Somebody who can do horrible things and feel no pity nor guilt.  Something a normal person would.  

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43 minutes ago, Mon ami said:

My assessment of Arya is faithful to Martin's novel.  The murders of the elderly insurance underwriter, the crow brother, and Rafford were the acts of a cold-blooded killer who felt no remorse.

Just to be clear, you're talking about the "insurance" man who cheats his grieving customers, the deserter who abandoned Sam and Maester Aemon to make eyes at the youngest whore, and the child rapist who killed her friend Lommy?
I don't feel like it should be controversial to not feel sympathy at the death of a man who raped a thirteen year old girl, in front of her father, and then laughed about it...
I'm heartbroken that Arya had to be the one to kill him, she has already been through enough, but I'm not gonna lie, I'm truly glad someone did it.

And she does seem to feel guilty about Dareon's death, her nightmare included him.

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1 hour ago, Mon ami said:

Your piece is a thorough re-write of the novel.  The Arya in your novel is not the Arya in aSoIaF.  The real Arya is a cold-blooded murderer who feels very little remorse.  She's crazy.  I have read a few of your posts and you have been very busy creating good outcomes for the people you like and negative endings for the people you don't.  Which is fine but the problem is you are presenting this as a prediction based on aSoIaF. 

Okay? Can you please explain? I actually don't dislike any of the characters, POV's at least. I make my predictions based on what I think makes narrative sense, and what I think is being foreshadowed.  Tyrion is my favorite character, and I gave him a really dark ending. Also, there's a lot that can be overlooked in just summing up a characters arc in a paragraph or two. Do you think Arya being forced to kill her own mother is a happy ending? That would be one of the saddest moments in the entire series. Or her going around killing people who have wronged her. Yes, I think she'll give it up in the end, but that doesn't mean everything will go great and she'll be living a perfect life. Grrm originally titled ADOS as A Time for Wolves, and I believe the Starks will come out on top, this doesn't mean they end up happy or without consequence. Martin also said he wants a bittersweet ending, similar to LOTR Scouring of the Shire. I've posted my take on that if you've read it. The books aren't going to end with the Others destroying Westeros.

Please, elaborate on this because I'm genuinely curious of your opinion.

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Definitely the question of the Insurance vendor's guilt is a fair topic.  I also do not think he was guilty.  Death is not the proper punishment even if he were.  He should have been arrested and made to pay restitution.  At least that would be helpful.  The faceless men was more than likely paid by a competitor to take him out.  

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7 hours ago, Mon ami said:

My assessment of Arya is faithful to Martin's novel.  The murders of the elderly insurance underwriter, the crow brother, and Rafford were the acts of a cold-blooded killer who felt no remorse.

The NW deserter broke his oaths and forfeited his life. Ned or Jon or Robb would have taken his head without hesitation or remorse. In Arya's mind, she's the only Stark alive that can bring justice to this oathbreaker. And STILL she feels remorses over his death. How are you missing that point?

Arya having just talked to Plague Face, who threatens to send her away from the HoBW by judging her a liar (still being Arya) and accuses her of having a soft heart (hilarious considering your assessment). Even so she tries to convince herself the Insurance Man deserves death and again is told off by the Kindly Man for attempting to judge someone guilty or innocent. Only the MFG can do that. But hasn't Arya been doing that since Book 2 with her list? She removes Sandor off her list a few nights before they separate and he miraculously survives falling from a cliff? Innocent or guilty. Arya is giving me MFG teas for awhile now. Raff is dropped into her lap in the most unlikely way and he certainly deserves death many times over. Fated.

Imagine having remorse for a double child rapist and murderer? All these men deserved death and more:

Quote

“Weasel, go up and ask if they’ve got any clothes that need mending, I’ll have the women see to it.”

Arya ran up her well-scrubbed steps. No one paid her any mind when she entered. Chiswyck was seated by the fire with a horn of ale to hand, telling one of his funny stories. She dared not interrupt, unless she wanted a bloody lip.

“After the Hand’s tourney, it were, before the war come,” Chiswyck was saying. “We were on our ways back west, seven of us with Ser Gregor. Raff was with me, and young Joss Stilwood, he’d squired for Ser in the lists. - Chiswyck cackled, quaffed his ale, and wiped the foam away with the back of his hand. “Meanwhile, this daughter of his has been fetching and pouring, a fat little thing, eighteen or so-”

“Thirteen, more like,” Raff the Sweetling drawled.

“Well, be that as it may, she’s not much to look at, but Eggon’s been drinking and gets to touching her, and might be I did a little touching meself, and Raff’s telling young Stilwood that he ought to drag the girl upstairs and make hisself a man, giving the lad courage as it were. Finally Joss reaches up under her skirt, and she shrieks and drops her flagon and goes running off to the kitchen. Well, it would have ended right there, only what does the old fool do but he goes to Ser and asks him to make us leave the girl alone, him being an anointed knight and all such.

“Ser Gregor, he wasn’t paying no mind to none of our fun, but now he looks, you know how he does, and he commands that the girl be brought before him. Now the old man has to drag her out of the kitchen, and no one to blame but hisself. Ser looks her over and says, ‘So this is the whore you’re so concerned for’ and this besotted old fool says, ‘My Layna’s no whore, ser’ right to Gregor’s face. Ser, he never blinks, just says, ‘She is now’ tosses the old man another silver, rips the dress off the wench, and takes her right there on the table in front of her da, her flopping and wiggling like a rabbit and making these noises. The look on the old man’s face, I laughed so hard ale was coming out me nose. Then this boy hears the noise, the son I figure, and comes rushing up from the cellar, so Raff has to stick a dirk in his belly. By then Ser’s done, so he goes back to his drinking and we all have a turn. Tobbot, you know how he is, he flops her over and goes in the back way. The girl was done fighting by the time I had her, maybe she’d decided she liked it after all, though to tell the truth I wouldn’t have minded a little wiggling. And now here’s the best bit… when it’s all done, Ser tells the old man that he wants his change. The girl wasn’t worth a silver, he says… and damned if that old man didn’t fetch a fistful of coppers, beg mlord’s pardon, and thank him for the custom!”

The men all roared, none louder than Chiswyck himself, who laughed so hard at his own story that snot dribbled from his nose down into his scraggy grey beard. Arya stood in the shadows of the stairwell and watched him. She crept back down to the cellars without saying a word. When Weese found that she hadn’t asked about the clothes, he yanked down her breeches and caned her until blood ran down her thighs. - Arya, ACoK

Who knew that all the in way in Braavos a girl named Mercy would put down Layna's rapist and her brother's killer with one flick of her blade (was it Needle?)

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The old man should have been reported to the authorities if he was guilty of fraud.  The fact that he was assassinated by paid killers cast serious doubts with regards to his guilt. I think Arya murdered an innocent man.  

For someone who speaks of "a pattern" you seem to only revert to this 1 example several times in this thread. Having already been shown how the NW oathbreaker weighs heavy on her mind, remorseful and haunted. 

You don't know who prayed for the Insurance Man's death? Could have been one of widows he cheated for all you know. If that were the case it would be definitive proof of his guilt. Maybe this guy did other evil things which were withheld from Arya and the FM were testing her resolve and obedience. Arya should do as she is told, no questions asked. She was already challenged by Plague Face in this chapter, accusing her of being too soft of heart to become a FM and that she did not belong. How are they seeing this and you are not? If she were so cold blooded, why does she try to find reasons for his guilt beyond what the FM have told her? 

Edited by a black swan

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Posted (edited)

Ok what's up with some of these Dany/Targ fans and their hate boner for the Starks? Because it's not the first time I've seen them trashing a Stark like this.

And tbh I think you are in no position to accuse others of being bised and delusional when your whole argument rests on your love for one character/family and hatred for another.

Edited by winter daughter

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