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Arya's storyline going forward

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1 hour ago, winter daughter said:

Ok what's up with some of these Dany/Targ fans and their hate boner for the Starks? Because it's not the first time I've seen them trashing a Stark like this.

And tbh I think you are in no position to accuse others of being bised and delusional when your whole argument rests on your love for one character/family and hatred for another.

They're Dany fans?:(
That's a new one for me, I'm so used to Dany fans loving Arya (and vice versa), and the two fan groups banding together since both are hated on by the same people: Sansa fans (to be fair, it's mostly show!sansa and jonsa fans. Book Sansa fans are usually different, but there's fewer of them than show Sansa fans, in my experience, or it might be that the show fans are just louder).

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11 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

No, never heard that before lol That's commonly used? 

Yeah that's a pretty normal one.

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14 hours ago, teej6 said:

Don’t worry, many on this forum think like you. She’s not insane, cruel, evil, or too far gone. Far from it. I think Arya is one of the most empathetic characters in the story. Even as a child, she could identify with people different from her, people from a different class and station than herself. She could recognize people for who they are and not as how society defined them. In some ways, you can compare Arya’s arc to that of a child soldier, but that also does not fully explain it. Like a child soldier, she is slowly becoming desensitized to violence. Nevertheless, even now in the books, she still questions and rationalizes her kills, which I don’t think fully conditioned child soldiers would do. Now, I’m not arguing that Arya’s doubts absolve her from her killings, it just shows that she’s not “far gone” as some would like to state/ believe. Arya Stark is still very much part of her personality — her motivation, thoughts, and fears.

Arya loved Ned with all her heart and was fiercely loyal to him, but she wouldn’t give up Jon even to him. Jon is the key to Arya’s journey back to Westeros and her break with the FM. Jon is the key to her finding herself again. She knew Jon would not give up on her even if her mother and Robb did, and she gave up everything to become “no one” except Needle. I know gifting LS mercy is a popular theory when it comes to Arya’s story, but I think it’s Jon or something related to him that will make Arya turn away from anger, pain, and fear, which are the emotions that are driving her now.

Yes, exactly. I don't really understand why some people see her as an irredeemable psychopathic killer: if she is one, then every brainwashed child soldier is just as irredeemable in in their eyes. Speaking of lack of empathy.

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16 minutes ago, AryaRegina said:

They're Dany fans?:(
That's a new one for me, I'm so used to Dany fans loving Arya (and vice versa), and the two fan groups banding together since both are hated on by the same people: Sansa fans (to be fair, it's mostly show!sansa and jonsa fans. Book Sansa fans are usually different, but there's fewer of them than show Sansa fans, in my experience, or it might be that the show fans are just louder).

Honestly, I'd say that's a big myth. Sansa is my favorite character, Arya is among my favorites and I really like Dany as well (and in the fanfic in my head they all become the best of friends and Sansa and Arya really close) In all my years in the fandom, I've never come across a Sansa fan, that hates Arya. There is not one in this forum, that comes to mind, on the contrary most have Arya among their favorites and see the complexities of her character. But then there are a lot of Arya book fans, who seem to hold a everlasting grudge against Sansa. They don't give her the same courtesy they demand to be given to Arya, when analyzing her character and consistently ignore the text and refuse to acknowledge any changes and development Sansa made. But ultimately it just comes down to - they don't care about her character at all- which IMO is a bit sad, because it could be really good for Arya as well to  later on have a good and close relationship with her sister- but apparently Sansa only ever gets viewed as an obstacle in Arya's path to happiness and self-fulfillment. IMO that attitude almost has a bit of a sexist quality to it- "only one sister can win" - no sisters can win together and be supportive of one another. IMO there is a clear reason, that GRRM has made them so different from each other- but they also have much more in common as they were aware of as 11 and 9 year olds. They have different strength and that will help House Stark in the future.

But yeah- I don't know what GOT Sansa fans are up to- IMO the GOT characters are just so completely different to their books counterparts and don't know why they should be discussed in the book forum.

I think it's unfair to mention in the book forum Sansa fans dislike Arya and Dany, because from my experience, that couldn't be further from the truth. What I've seen however repeatedly is Dany book fans hating Arya and Jon with a passion.

 

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33 minutes ago, Pdor said:

Yes, exactly. I don't really understand why some people see her as an irredeemable psychopathic killer: if she is one, then every brainwashed child soldier is just as irredeemable in in their eyes. Speaking of lack of empathy.

Exactly. She is far from irredeemable. Her arc is about identity. She started out as the only character who knew exactly who she was, and wasn't afraid to be herself. Then she was forced to hide her identity, and be other people, she joined the faceless men, and hear we are. She is struggling with her identity, and is almost lost, but deep down she'll never give up being Arya. Needle is proof of that.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, AryaRegina said:

They're Dany fans?:(
That's a new one for me, I'm so used to Dany fans loving Arya (and vice versa), and the two fan groups banding together since both are hated on by the same people: Sansa fans (to be fair, it's mostly show!sansa and jonsa fans. Book Sansa fans are usually different, but there's fewer of them than show Sansa fans, in my experience, or it might be that the show fans are just louder).

Yeah I know some of them used to team up to shit on Sansa. I think It was mainly before S8 though and when it turned out Arya and Sansa are actually in the same team they turned on her too. (But let's not talk about the show here)

Every fan base has their own branch of fanatic fans/haters/shippers that obviously do not represent all of them. In this very thread some of these people who are defending Arya are actually avid Sansa haters that love it when Sansa is the target of such unfair criticism and judgment.
 

Edited by winter daughter

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10 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Some of Arya's fans are no longer interested in accuracy.  They are so desperate to defend her no matter what.  They have blinded themselves. They can no longer see what they should.  

I notice the same behavior among those who defend Jon Snow.  That is an argument for another day though. 

3 hours ago, winter daughter said:

Ok what's up with some of these Dany/Targ fans and their hate boner for the Starks? Because it's not the first time I've seen them trashing a Stark like this.

And tbh I think you are in no position to accuse others of being bised and delusional when your whole argument rests on your love for one character/family and hatred for another.

It's not trashing to point out what's wrong with Arya because there are a lot of things wrong with the girl. 

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1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Honestly, I'd say that's a big myth. Sansa is my favorite character, Arya is among my favorites and I really like Dany as well (and in the fanfic in my head they all become the best of friends and Sansa and Arya really close) In all my years in the fandom, I've never come across a Sansa fan, that hates Arya. There is not one in this forum, that comes to mind, on the contrary most have Arya among their favorites and see the complexities of her character. But then there are a lot of Arya book fans, who seem to hold a everlasting grudge against Sansa. They don't give her the same courtesy they demand to be given to Arya, when analyzing her character and consistently ignore the text and refuse to acknowledge any changes and development Sansa made. But ultimately it just comes down to - they don't care about her character at all- which IMO is a bit sad, because it could be really good for Arya as well to  later on have a good and close relationship with her sister- but apparently Sansa only ever gets viewed as an obstacle in Arya's path to happiness and self-fulfillment. IMO that attitude almost has a bit of a sexist quality to it- "only one sister can win" - no sisters can win together and be supportive of one another. IMO there is a clear reason, that GRRM has made them so different from each other- but they also have much more in common as they were aware of as 11 and 9 year olds. They have different strength and that will help House Stark in the future.

But yeah- I don't know what GOT Sansa fans are up to- IMO the GOT characters are just so completely different to their books counterparts and don't know why they should be discussed in the book forum.

I think it's unfair to mention in the book forum Sansa fans dislike Arya and Dany, because from my experience, that couldn't be further from the truth. What I've seen however repeatedly is Dany book fans hating Arya and Jon with a passion.

 

I've been in this fandom for a long time as well, and I've mostly seen Arya hate come from Sansa fans, it's not a myth... Maybe it depends on the platform? I'm mostly on tumblr, so that may have something to do with it?
I usually stay away from this forum, and only check in once in a while.

And I brought up the show first fans, since they usually join book discussions as well, at least on other platforms, on Tumblr the book and show fans blend more together.
I already did say book Sansa fans are different, the biggest "Arya vs Sansa" argument is about the bullying, book fans usually acknowledge it and values Sansa's growth (so there's really no argument at all), while the fans who prefer the show, and lets that influence how they view the book characters, claims it didn't happen, and even say Arya bullied Sansa instead.
I've mostly encountered the second kind, but again, that might be the platform?

Most Arya fans want the sisters to get closure as well, I don't think they'll ever be bffs, but I do think Arya will forgive Sansa, and I do think they will end up closer than they were as children, and learn to value each other and work together:)

As for Dany, I honestly haven't noticed Arya hate from Dany fans before... That's why I'm so surprised.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, AryaRegina said:

As for Dany, I honestly haven't noticed Arya hate from Dany fans before... That's why I'm so surprised.

It’s not so much “Arya hate from Dany fans”, but just that there’s a small but very loud group of Dany fans who will relentlessly hate on anything Stark, to the point where basically any thread on any topic ends up turning into a Stark hate thread. It’s very tiring, especially b/c the text is wilfully and blatantly ignored every time, just to keep the blind hate going. It will be interesting to see what will happen once TWoW is published. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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14 minutes ago, Victor Newman said:

It's not trashing to point out what's wrong with Arya because there are a lot of things wrong with the girl. 

It is when you insist a trumutized 11 year old is unredeemable and better off dead.

Her story is not finished yet and although right now she is in a dark place she is not lost and will find her way back to her home and her family. Her arc is about reclaiming her identity as Arya Stark of Winterfell and not turning into a killing machine that needs to be put down.

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Just now, winter daughter said:

It is when you insist a trumutized 11 year old is unredeemable and better off dead.

Her story is not finished yet and although right now she is in a dark place she is not lost and will find her way back to her home and her family. Her arc is about reclaiming her identity as Arya Stark of Winterfell and not turning into a killing machine that needs to be put down.

I think there is a general agreement among her critics but there are also subtle differences of opinion.  Do I believe Arya  Stark will turn herself around?  No.  I do not believe she will turn herself around.  I will opine as you have and say she is already a killing machine now.  Arya Stark of Winterfell is the person who killed the insurance guy and those others.  She chose to do this.  It is that identity which is driving the desire to get revenge.  I do not share your positive opinion of Arya Stark of Winterfell.  It's not a good thing to hang on to that identity.  The wolf pack is not benevolent.  The love and devotion she holds for the Stark pack will only make her do more bad things. 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Victor Newman said:

I think there is a general agreement among her critics but there are also subtle differences of opinion.  Do I believe Arya  Stark will turn herself around?  No.  I do not believe she will turn herself around.  I will opine as you have and say she is already a killing machine now.  

Is the bolded sentence supposed to make you sound objective? And how many people have Dany (“killing machine”??) killed so far either directly or indirectly? Are you counting? Or do the dead people in the Dany chapters not count? (The people of Astapor says hello.)

6 hours ago, Victor Newman said:

Arya Stark of Winterfell is the person who killed the insurance guy and those others.  She chose to do this.  It is that identity which is driving the desire to get revenge.  I do not share your positive opinion of Arya Stark of Winterfell.  It's not a good thing to hang on to that identity.  The wolf pack is not benevolent.  The love and devotion she holds for the Stark pack will only make her do more bad things. 

And what a paragon of virtue the “insurance guy” was. And who are these others? All innocents I suppose, who were good decent people living honorable lives that mad crazy Arya just butchered, huh? I don’t want to be drawn into this pointless debate with you but since you pretend to be an objective reader/ critic, let’s discuss/ compare Dany’s virtues (and don’t pretend not to be a Dany fan).

Dany lays waste to an entire city and it’s population through her stupidity and megalomaniacal world view — remember that little place call Astapor? How are the Astapori faring now? And what about the 163 Great Masters crucified and disemboweled in Meereen? Did they get due process? Some of them could be innocent like the “insurance guy”, could they not? And how about the wineshop owner and his daughters who we are told Dany thinks maybe innocent and know nothing about the killings in Meereen. Yet, because she was angry, she gives them “the dragon’s mercy” and orders Shakaz to torture the girls in front of their father. Oh yeah, that’s the way to rule... torture random children in front of their father. And to boot Dany has the power and strength (three dragons and an army) to do what is right, but she doesn’t, because her quest for power and vengeance (I don’t even think it’s about vengeance anymore for her) is insatiable. And that is okay with you. But when a frightened, traumatized lost child is trying to survive in a brutal world and is drawn/ influenced by people who she thinks are helping her, she becomes an evil murdering psychopath. 

The “wolf pack is not benevolent” but fire breathing massive dragons are? Dragons only burn evil people, right? Kudos to your objectivity [insert sarcasm font]. 

Like most conquerors of the time, Dany has delusions of grandeur and self-import and world domination tendencies. Her actions have far reaching consequences for entire populations. GRRM still hasn’t revealed whether she’ll be the conquering hero, or the antagonist (this does not make Dany evil just the opposing force to other fan favorites). My understanding of her arc so far makes me lean towards the latter, but I don’t go onto every Dany thread and spout the same nonsense (without textual evidence or contextual analysis) on how evuul she is or what a psychopath she is like you and some of the other Dany fans on this forum do on every Stark-centric thread.

If you would provide textual support and context, others would take your arguments more seriously. The topic of this thread is Arya’s story going forward. If you think she is going to continue a life with the FM and as an assassin, back your reasoning with textual support, and not “she killed the insurance guy and those others”. Many on this thread itself, have provided sound arguments supported by the text on how they see Arya’s story developing. And besides, she did not kill the insurance man to get revenge. So that blows a crater in your argument “it is that identity which is driving the desire to get revenge”. 

To me and several other posters on this forum, Arya’s story is far from over and her Stark identity is still very much part of her and her narrative. The Starks (no matter how much you deny it) are the protagonists and good guys in the story. We have many quotes from GRRM to the effect — “To me, the Starks are heroes, so they would be the Giants” (GRRM’s favorite NFL team), he compares Jon to a leader that kids today should try and emulate, and so on and so forth. This does not mean the Starks will not be tried and tested. They will see tribulations and do things that is counter to their upbringing and nature but they will eventually circle back to the basic morality and goodness instilled in them by the Stark patriarch, Ned (to me, the moral compass of the story). And Arya is still a Stark and will come to that realization in the next book. 

Edited by teej6

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5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Great post, @teej6. A shame that it’s going to fall on [some] deaf ears. :D

 

Thanks, and you are right, it will. Can’t wait for TWoW to come out and see the bubble burst on their Starks are evuul fantasies. 

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1 hour ago, teej6 said:

The Starks (no matter how much you deny it) are the protagonists and good guys in the story. We have many quotes from GRRM to the effect — “To me, the Starks are heroes, so they would be the Giants” (GRRM’s favorite NFL team)

"The kids [Sansa, Arya, and Bran] are a huge part of the story, in many ways the central part of the story... And I always intended to separate them and set them on their own paths."

*

"Yeah, the children were always at the heart of this. The Stark children, in particular, were always very central. Bran is the first viewpoint character that we meet, and then we meet Jon and Sansa and Arya and the rest of them. It was always my intention to do that."

38 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Can’t wait for TWoW to come out and see the bubble burst on their Starks are evuul fantasies. 

We are in for a real treat :devil:

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2 hours ago, teej6 said:

Is the bolded sentence supposed to make you sound objective? And how many people have Dany (“killing machine”??) killed so far either directly or indirectly? Are you counting? Or do the dead people in the Dany chapters not count? (The people of Astapor says hello.)

And what a paragon of virtue the “insurance guy” was. And who are these others? All innocents I suppose, who were good decent people living honorable lives that mad crazy Arya just butchered, huh? I don’t want to be drawn into this pointless debate with you but since you pretend to be an objective reader/ critic, let’s discuss/ compare Dany’s virtues (and don’t pretend not to be a Dany fan).

Dany lays waste to an entire city and it’s population through her stupidity and megalomaniacal world view — remember that little place call Astapor? How are the Astapori faring now? And what about the 163 Great Masters crucified and disemboweled in Meereen? Did they get due process? Some of them could be innocent like the “insurance guy”, could they not? And how about the wineshop owner and his daughters who we are told Dany thinks maybe innocent and know nothing about the killings in Meereen. Yet, because she was angry, she gives them “the dragon’s mercy” and orders Shakaz to torture the girls in front of their father. Oh yeah, that’s the way to rule... torture random children in front of their father. And to boot Dany has the power and strength (three dragons and an army) to do what is right, but she doesn’t, because her quest for power and vengeance (I don’t even think it’s about vengeance anymore for her) is insatiable. And that is okay with you. But when a frightened, traumatized lost child is trying to survive in a brutal world and is drawn/ influenced by people who she thinks are helping her, she becomes an evil murdering psychopath. 

The “wolf pack is not benevolent” but fire breathing massive dragons are? Dragons only burn evil people, right? Kudos to your objectivity [insert sarcasm font]. 

Like most conquerors of the time, Dany has delusions of grandeur and self-import and world domination tendencies. Her actions have far reaching consequences for entire populations. GRRM still hasn’t revealed whether she’ll be the conquering hero, or the antagonist (this does not make Dany evil just the opposing force to other fan favorites). My understanding of her arc so far makes me lean towards the latter, but I don’t go onto every Dany thread and spout the same nonsense (without textual evidence or contextual analysis) on how evuul she is or what a psychopath she is like you and some of the other Dany fans on this forum do on every Stark-centric thread.

If you would provide textual support and context, others would take your arguments more seriously. The topic of this thread is Arya’s story going forward. If you think she is going to continue a life with the FM and as an assassin, back your reasoning with textual support, and not “she killed the insurance guy and those others”. Many on this thread itself, have provided sound arguments supported by the text on how they see Arya’s story developing. And besides, she did not kill the insurance man to get revenge. So that blows a crater in your argument “it is that identity which is driving the desire to get revenge”. 

To me and several other posters on this forum, Arya’s story is far from over and her Stark identity is still very much part of her and her narrative. The Starks (no matter how much you deny it) are the protagonists and good guys in the story. We have many quotes from GRRM to the effect — “To me, the Starks are heroes, so they would be the Giants” (GRRM’s favorite NFL team), he compares Jon to a leader that kids today should try and emulate, and so on and so forth. This does not mean the Starks will not be tried and tested. They will see tribulations and do things that is counter to their upbringing and nature but they will eventually circle back to the basic morality and goodness instilled in them by the Stark patriarch, Ned (to me, the moral compass of the story). And Arya is still a Stark and will come to that realization in the next book. 

Periodt. :bowdown:

 

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2 hours ago, teej6 said:

And Arya is still a Stark and will come to that realization in the next book. 

Arya knows she's a Stark. She hasn't been able to shed that. The only reason she's sticking around the HoBaW is because she has nowhere to go. Her parents are dead, her home is gone, and the brother she has is all the way at the Wall, and she tried to get to him when she got on the Titan's Daughter, but her request was denied. 

Arya has been living with this fear that she will be thrown out by the kindly man, and every time she feels that noose tighten around her, she wonders where she will go and does what she is being asked. But she has been unable to embrace the "no-oness" fully.

It's all incredibly tragic. 

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11 hours ago, Pdor said:

Yes, exactly. I don't really understand why some people see her as an irredeemable psychopathic killer: if she is one, then every brainwashed child soldier is just as irredeemable in in their eyes. Speaking of lack of empathy.

Empathy is not what Arya needs.  Arya is not some kid who was forcibly taken from her village and forced by soldiers to fight.  She chose to walk the road of revenge.  The choices were made by her.  Arya is not the only child who lost a family to war.  Most orphaned by war do not go around with a list of people to kill.  What Arya needs is incarceration and professional help if she were living in our modern world.  The only thing they can offer her in theirs is incarceration and punishment.

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1 minute ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Empathy is not what Arya needs.  Arya is not some kid who was forcibly taken from her village and forced by soldiers to fight.  She chose to walk the road of revenge.  The choices were made by her.  Arya is not the only child who lost a family to war.  Most orphaned by war do not go around with a list of people to kill.  What Arya needs is incarceration and professional help if she were living in our modern world.  The only thing they can offer her in theirs is incarceration and punishment.

How can anyone argue that a child - any child - doesn't deserve empathy is so beyond me I can't even wrap my head around it. 

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