Did Renly even need to declare himself King?

[Arthur Peres]

11 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

I would argue that the prologue of A Clash of Kings specifically shows that Stannis declared before Renly because when Davos goes to the Stormlands, Renly hasnt declared yet. That would also mean he declares before Robb as well, since Robb hears about Renly's crowning during his own.

But both Robb and Tywin hear about Renly's coronation, and both of them tell that Stannis is silent.

"The faintest flicker of distaste played across Lord Tywin’s thin lips. “Nothing . . . yet. My grandson still sits the Iron Throne, but the eunuch has heard whispers from the south. Renly Baratheon wed Margaery Tyrell at Highgarden this fortnight past, and now he has claimed the crown. The bride’s father and brothers have bent the knee and sworn him their swords.”"

“I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined. Yet he does nothing. Oh, Varys hears his whispers. Stannis is building ships, Stannis is hiring sellswords, Stannis is bringing a shadowbinder from Asshai. What does it mean? Is any of it true?” He gave an irritated shrug. “Kevan, bring us the map.”

“Ser Edmure told me. I am sorry, Mother . . . for Lord Hoster and for you. Yet first we must meet. We’ve had word from the south. Renly Baratheon has claimed his brother’s crown.”

“Renly?” she said, shocked. “I had thought, surely it would be Lord Stannis . . . ”

“So did we all, my lady,” Galbart Glover said.

[dsjj251]

6 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

But both Robb and Tywin hear about Renly's coronation, and both of them tell that Stannis is silent.

"The faintest flicker of distaste played across Lord Tywin’s thin lips. “Nothing . . . yet. My grandson still sits the Iron Throne, but the eunuch has heard whispers from the south. Renly Baratheon wed Margaery Tyrell at Highgarden this fortnight past, and now he has claimed the crown. The bride’s father and brothers have bent the knee and sworn him their swords.”"

“I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined. Yet he does nothing. Oh, Varys hears his whispers. Stannis is building ships, Stannis is hiring sellswords, Stannis is bringing a shadowbinder from Asshai. What does it mean? Is any of it true?” He gave an irritated shrug. “Kevan, bring us the map.”

“Ser Edmure told me. I am sorry, Mother . . . for Lord Hoster and for you. Yet first we must meet. We’ve had word from the south. Renly Baratheon has claimed his brother’s crown.”

“Renly?” she said, shocked. “I had thought, surely it would be Lord Stannis . . . ”

“So did we all, my lady,” Galbart Glover said.

Stannis isnt silent. He sent Davos to round up his support in the Stormlands. He has clearly declared to at least the Narrow Sea lords and the Stormlords.  

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

 

He does not inform the realm he is contesting for the throne, and the basis for it, until the ravens are sent in ACoK. According to one of the best fan-made timelines trying to piece it all together, the time between Robert's death and Stannis's proclamation is ~5 months, while the time between Robert's death and Renly being crowned in Highgarden is ~3 months. 

Stannis certainly had some reason to keep quiet, but taking that long to even let people know he was contesting for the Iron Throne was a mistake. It's hard to blame Renly for moving in this regard.

 

What Davos says is that Renly has formed a Rainbow Guard, which is news. Cressen and co. already knew that Renly had crowned himself. 

It's certainly true that Stannis would believe himself rightful king and go by that style on Dragonstone when he received news of Robert's death, but it's also clear that the day they send the letter is even in Stannis's own view his public proclamation. After all, the letter contains this wording:

 

I genuinely dont remember the  rainbow guard line, but even if true, that certainly doesnt mean Renly crowned himself before Stannis. 

 

[Arthur Peres]

3 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Stannis isnt silent. He sent Davos to round up his support in the Stormlands. He has clearly declared to at least the Narrow Sea lords and the Stormlords.  

 

Only after Renly and Robb are already crowed.

During Robb's council one of the arguments made to support Renly is that he is already crowed.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Only after Renly and Robb are already crowed.

During Robb's council one of the arguments made to support Renly is that he is already crowed.

Indeed.

@dsjj251

  

5 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Stannis isnt silent. He sent Davos to round up his support in the Stormlands. He has clearly declared to at least the Narrow Sea lords and the Stormlords.  

I genuinely dont remember the  rainbow guard line, but even if true, that certainly doesnt mean Renly crowned himself before Stannis. 

You're probably resting on the technicality that Stannis probably acted as king as soon as he heard of Robert's death. And I'd even grant that it was very likely that Stannis did. But if you call yourself king and the realm you claim to rule doesn't know about it, are you really king? If people can't say, "And there's King Stannis we can turn to" because you're not telling them what your intentions are, you can't really complain that others have the jump on you.

In any case, it is 100% clear that Renly announced to the realm he was king a long time before Stannis announced to the realm he was king.

 

[dsjj251]

3 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Only after Renly and Robb are already crowed.

During Robb's council one of the arguments made to support Renly is that he is already crowed.

Davos has been out for weeks, the Lords of the Narrow Sea are all on Dragonstone to support Stannis. Stannis declared long before the prologue. 

1 minute ago, Ran said:

Indeed.

@dsjj251

  

You're probably resting on the technicality that Stannis probably acted as king as soon as he heard of Robert's death. And I'd even grant that it was very likely that Stannis did. But if you call yourself king and the realm you claim to rule doesn't know about it, are you really king? If people can't say, "And there's King Stannis we can turn to" because you're not telling them what your intentions are, you can't really complain that others have the jump on you.

In any case, it is 100% clear that Renly announced to the realm he was king a long time before Stannis announced to the realm he was king.

 

In the prologue of ACoKs,  the Lords of the Stormlands hadnt declared for Renly yet, but Davos had been going around trying to recruit them for a while.  Stannis had already assembled a small army on Dragonstone.

In AGOT, Stannis says it had only been 2 weeks since Renly had been crowned, and by the time Cat makes it to Renly, Stannis has already sailed to Storm's End and is besieging it. 

[Adam Yozza]

1 minute ago, dsjj251 said:

Davos has been out for weeks, the Lords of the Narrow Sea are all on Dragonstone to support Stannis. Stannis declared long before the prologue. 

In the prologue of ACoKs,  the Lords of the Stormlands hadnt declared for Renly yet, but Davos had been going around trying to recruit them for a while.  Stannis had already assembled a small army on Dragonstone.

In AGOT, Stannis says it had only been 2 weeks since Renly had been crowned, and by the time Cat makes it to Renly, Stannis has already sailed to Storm's End and is besieging it. 

Stannis styling himself as King to his direct vassal's is one thing, but he can't complain about the likes of the Reach, the North and the Riverlands not backing him because at the time they back their claimants, Stannis hasn't announced his intentions. They can't back a claimant that isn't laying his claim. This is one of the main reasons for Robb's indecision on which claimant to back.

Joffrey is ruled out immediately for obvious reason's. But by the time of the little war council at Riverrun, the only viable alternative is Renly. Stannis hasn't publicly laid claim to the crown so they can't realistically support him. As far as they know at that point, Stannis means to support Joffrey. It'd be pointless to rebel and depose Joffrey and Tommen just to seat their loyal uncle in their place.

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Stannis declared long before the prologue.

Quote

By right of birth and blood, I do this day lay claim to the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros.

That's in the first Davos chapter.

What he did prior to the Davos chapter is attempt to quietly get some people to side with him over Joffrey and Renly, and mostly met failure. He did not tell the occupant of the Iron Throne that he was laying a claim until later. That's his declaration.

4 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

 

In the prologue of ACoKs,  the Lords of the Stormlands hadnt declared for Renly yet,

No, they already had. Davos was sent to try and win over anyone uncommitted and to try and win back anyone who had already committed to Renly. Stannis just assumed everyone would come flocking to him, I guess, and when they didn't -- and Renly stole the march on him -- he dispatched Davos.

 

4 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

but Davos had been going around trying to recruit them for a while.  Stannis had already assembled a small army on Dragonstone.

Stannis had been recruiting ever since he abandoned Robert to his doom in King's Landing, it seems; see Varys in AGoT:

Quote

No one knows what Stannis has been doing on Dragonstone, but I will wager you that he's gathered more swords than seashells.

 That is not a declaration, however.

 

4 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

In AGOT, Stannis says it had only been 2 weeks since Renly had been crowned, and by the time Cat makes it to Renly, Stannis has already sailed to Storm's End and is besieging it. 

I mean, Catelyn travels for a month or two between her first and second chapter. She only learns that Stannis has named himself king at Bitterbridge. That's how bloody late Stannis was. Renly and Robb were crowned and she had time enough to travel hundreds of miles overland to Bitterbridge before hearing about it.

[Lord Varys]

Stannis crowned/proclaimed himself king before the Prologue of ACoK.

If you guys actually read the text you'll see that Stannis is styled 'King Stannis' in there, just as Shireen is called 'Princess Shireen'.

It is Cressen who continually forgets who and what his liege lord and his daughter are now. No longer lord and lady, but king and princess.

Quote

“Maester Cressen, we have visitors.” Pylos spoke softly, as if loath to disturb Cressen’s solemn meditations. Had he known what drivel filled his head, he would have shouted. “The princess would see the white raven.” Ever correct, Pylos called her princess now, as her lord father was a king. King of a smoking rock in the great salt sea, yet a king nonetheless. “Her fool is with her.”

 

“Maester, Ser Davos returned last night. They were talking of it in the kitchen. I thought you would want to know at once.”

“Davos…last night, you say? Where is he?”

“With the king. They have been together most of the night.”

Cressen slid his hands up into his sleeves as if for warmth. His fingers found the hard lumps the crystals made in the wool. “Lord Stannis.”

Stannis turned from the red woman, but it was Lady Selyse who replied. “King Stannis. You forget yourself, Maester.”

“He is old, his mind wanders,” the king told her gruffly. “What is it, Cressen? Speak your mind.”

There is many more of this kind of stuff in the Prologue. It makes no sense for a man to be called 'king', for his daughter to be called 'princess', and for his wife to be offended when a scheming old man forgets the proper title if this was all just informal. This is not an interregnum period, not a time where King Stannis is still pondering whether he should try to lay claim to the Iron Throne or not. This is well past that moment. They are trying to find out how they go about achieving Stannis' goal, not whether they should or not.

And in this world people do not flippantly use the title of king. There is a reason why, right now, Prince Aegon is still a mere prince despite his claim to be the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. The reason is that Aegon Targaryen has not crowned or proclaimed himself king yet ... unlike Stannis Baratheon by the time of the Prologue. If the mere desire to become king in the future would give you the royal title then Aegon should have been a king already in ADwD - on the Rhoyne and later in the Stormlands. But he is not.

Stannis' public challenge towards Joffrey Baratheon and all his other enemies who presume to be king of this or that comes with the public proclamation in the letters, but that doesn't add to Stannis' kingship, it merely expresses it towards the Realm.

The question why George has this character act in this stupid way is unclear. I'd say that this is a convenient plot hole.

Regardless how you spin it, it makes no sense for Stannis to not reveal the twincest story as soon as he learns about Robert's death - not just to prevent another pretender rising up like Renly, but to stop the Lannisters from getting a headstart acquiring support. Regardless of the nonexistent popularity of Stannis Baratheon the man would be an utter moron to expect people to come to him and offer him the crown when they have no reason to believe Robert's children were Jaime's and he, Stannis, might want to challenge Joffrey's rise to the throne.

And, yes, it stands to reason that whatever letters and talks Stannis had with the Stormlords and the Lyseni and the Myrmen who joined his cause involved him telling them he was the rightful king and the point of him hiring them was to seize the Iron Throne.

This is one of those instances where George didn't really develop things very good or in detail, and readers are basically making up things to make it fit together. But it doesn't really work.

George wrote the Stannis story much better when he gave it to Rhaenyra. She crowned himself immediately when she learned about the king's death and did not sit on her hands doing nothing for weeks and months.

[dsjj251]

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

That's in the first Davos chapter.

What he did prior to the Davos chapter is attempt to quietly get some people to side with him over Joffrey and Renly, and mostly met failure. He did not tell the occupant of the Iron Throne that he was laying a claim until later. That's his declaration.

No, they already had. Davos was sent to try and win over anyone uncommitted and to try and win back anyone who had already committed to Renly. Stannis just assumed everyone would come flocking to him, I guess, and when they didn't -- and Renly stole the march on him -- he dispatched Davos.

 

Stannis had been recruiting ever since he abandoned Robert to his doom in King's Landing, it seems; see Varys in AGoT:

 That is not a declaration, however.

We are debating terminology at this point, if 2 of the 9 regions know he has declared himself as king, then he has declared himself king. 

The part about Davos being sent only after Renly was crowned is pure speculation. And no where in that chapter do I see any of the Stormlords having declared for King Renly. Only that they wouldnt declare for Stannis. 

Quote

I mean, Catelyn travels for a month or two between her first and second chapter. She only learns that Stannis has named himself king at Bitterbridge. That's how bloody late Stannis was. Renly and Robb were crowned and she had time enough to travel hundreds of miles overland to Bitterbridge before hearing about it.

Sorry, I meant Tywin. But you missed my point. Stannis is able to get all the way to Storm's End and start a siege in that time. By this time, some of the lords in the Stormlands had declared and even gone west to join Renly.  Clearly a lot of time passed between the prologue and  Catelyn's chapter where she learns of Stannis. 

[dsjj251]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis crowned/proclaimed himself king before the Prologue of ACoK.

If you guys actually read the text you'll see that Stannis is styled 'King Stannis' in there, just as Shireen is called 'Princess Shireen'.

It is Cressen who continually forgets who and what his liege lord and his daughter are now. No longer lord and lady, but king and princess.

There is many more of this kind of stuff in the Prologue. It makes no sense for a man to be called 'king', for his daughter to be called 'princess', and for his wife to be offended when a scheming old man forgets the proper title if this was all just informal. This is not an interregnum period, not a time where King Stannis is still pondering whether he should try to lay claim to the Iron Throne or not. This is well past that moment. They are trying to find out how they go about achieving Stannis' goal, not whether they should or not.

And in this world people do not flippantly use the title of king. There is a reason why, right now, Prince Aegon is still a mere prince despite his claim to be the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. The reason is that Aegon Targaryen has not crowned or proclaimed himself king yet ... unlike Stannis Baratheon by the time of the Prologue. If the mere desire to become king in the future would give you the royal title then Aegon should have been a king already in ADwD - on the Rhoyne and later in the Stormlands. But he is not.

Stannis' public challenge towards Joffrey Baratheon and all his other enemies who presume to be king of this or that comes with the public proclamation in the letters, but that doesn't add to Stannis' kingship, it merely expresses it towards the Realm.

The question why George has this character act in this stupid way is unclear. I'd say that this is a convenient plot hole.

Regardless how you spin it, it makes no sense for Stannis to not reveal the twincest story as soon as he learns about Robert's death - not just to prevent another pretender rising up like Renly, but to stop the Lannisters from getting a headstart acquiring support. Regardless of the nonexistent popularity of Stannis Baratheon the man would be an utter moron to expect people to come to him and offer him the crown when they have no reason to believe Robert's children were Jaime's and he, Stannis, might want to challenge Joffrey's rise to the throne.

And, yes, it stands to reason that whatever letters and talks Stannis had with the Stormlords and the Lyseni and the Myrmen who joined his cause involved him telling them he was the rightful king and the point of him hiring them was to seize the Iron Throne.

This is one of those instances where George didn't really develop things very good or in detail, and readers are basically making up things to make it fit together. But it doesn't really work.

George wrote the Stannis story much better when he gave it to Rhaenyra. She crowned himself immediately when she learned about the king's death and did not sit on her hands doing nothing for weeks and months.

I think most are arguing the definition of "declaration" 

 

[Arthur Peres]

4 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

I think most are arguing the definition of "declaration" 

It seems so.

Stannis may has declared himself king and held a small coronation cerimony, but he didn't made it public knowloge as Renly or Robb, wich case he is still the one to blame.

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And in this world people do not flippantly use the title of king. There is a reason why, right now, Prince Aegon is still a mere prince despite his claim to be the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. The reason is that Aegon Targaryen has not crowned or proclaimed himself king yet ... unlike Stannis Baratheon by the time of the Prologue. If the mere desire to become king in the future would give you the royal title then Aegon should have been a king already in ADwD - on the Rhoyne and later in the Stormlands. But he is not.

Tywin calls both Balon ,Robb and Renly as king.

King Robb and King Balon both claim the north. Letthem defend it, if they can. And if not, this Mance Rayder might even prove a useful ally.” Lord Tywin looked to his brother. “Is there more?

“My daughter commands us to ride for King’s Landing at once, to defend the Red Keep against King Renly and the Knight of Flowers.”

Renly's men also seems surprise when Stannis lands calling himself king.

“These are no Lannisters, my liege. It’s Lord Stannis at your gates. King Stannis, he calls himself now.”

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

I think most are arguing the definition of "declaration"

Well, Stannis' coronation would have been a public event on Dragonstone. You cannot make yourself king without some public witnesses, just as you cannot really marry without any witnesses either in a society where marriage is a publc affair.

And as has been said - Stannis would have Davos and his other representatives and whatever letters he wrote to his Narrow Sea bannermen refer to his as 'King Stannis' making it clear he wanted their help and support in his uprising.

He eventually also sends out letters addressed to all lords of the Seven Kingdoms, but this doesn't mean he was all that secretive about it before. The Stormlands they talked to and the vassals of Dragonstone know. And so would others these people talked to.

Stannis' letters don't serve as a proclamation or formal coronation - they are a declaration of his intentions and a demand that all people receiving them bend the knee to him.

The question why such letters were written this late is the above mentioned plot hole. It just doesn't make any sense.

Perhaps one can try to make things work a little better if one imagines that Cersei prevented the news about Robert's death to Dragonstone for quite some time, but that would be without textual basis at this point.

And while sifting through the Prologue I chanced on that little gem here, making it very clear the whole point of the Storm's End charade was to murder Renly:

Quote

“There is another way.” Lady Selyse moved closer. “Look out your windows, my lord. There is the sign you have waited for, blazoned on the sky. Red, it is, the red of flame, red for the fiery heart of the true god. It is his banner—and yours! See how it unfurls across the heavens like a dragon’s hot breath, and you the Lord of Dragonstone. It means your time has come, Your Grace. Nothing is more certain. You are meant to sail from this desolate rock as Aegon the Conqueror once sailed, to sweep all before you as he did. Only say the word, and embrace the power of the Lord of Light.”

“How many swords will the Lord of Light put into my hand?” Stannis demanded again.

“All you need,” his wife promised. “The swords of Storm’s End and Highgarden for a start, and all their lords bannermen.”

“Davos would tell you different,” Stannis said. “Those swords are sworn to Renly. They love my charming young brother, as they once loved Robert…and as they have never loved me.”

“Yes,” she answered, “but if Renly should die…”

Stannis looked at his lady with narrowed eyes, until Cressen could not hold his tongue. “It is not to be thought. Your Grace, whatever follies Renly has committed—”

“Follies? I call them treasons.” Stannis turned back to his wife. “My brother is young and strong, and he has a vast host around him, and these rainbow knights of his.”

“Melisandre has gazed into the flames, and seen him dead.”

Cressen was horrorstruck. “Fratricide…my lord, this is evil, unthinkable…please, listen to me.”

Lady Selyse gave him a measured look. “And what will you tell him, Maester? How he might win half a kingdom if he goes to the Starks on his knees and sells our daughter to Lysa Arryn?”

“I have heard your counsel, Cressen,” Lord Stannis said. “Now I will hear hers. You are dismissed.”

Selyse's promise that Melisandre will do away with Renly and give Stannis his brother's armies is what causes Stannis to espouse R'hllor and all that. We see the beginning of the conversation leading to all that right there in the Prologue.

47 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

It seems so.

Stannis may has declared himself king and held a small coronation cerimony, but he didn't made it public knowloge as Renly or Robb, wich case he is still the one to blame.

Tywin calls both Balon ,Robb and Renly as king.

King Robb and King Balon both claim the north. Letthem defend it, if they can. And if not, this Mance Rayder might even prove a useful ally.” Lord Tywin looked to his brother. “Is there more?

“My daughter commands us to ride for King’s Landing at once, to defend the Red Keep against King Renly and the Knight of Flowers.”

Renly's men also seems surprise when Stannis lands calling himself king.

“These are no Lannisters, my liege. It’s Lord Stannis at your gates. King Stannis, he calls himself now.”

Not sure what you want to tell my by that. People start to use the titles of people after they have taken them, but you don't informally use the title of king one day and then give it up because you don't write those letters Stannis eventually sent. Taking the title of king is a big step. It makes you are target if you aren't the only one.

That Stannis and Renly do not acknowledge each other's kingship is also not exactly surprising, is it?

In fact, one could even argue that this crowning thing is what makes a peaceful solution impossible. The first Great Council could only work because it was held while the king yet lived - and the second one settling the succession of Maekar also only worked because the Hand prevented the coronation of another king before the council had taken place.

If you are in a situation where there are already a number of crowned pretenders rather than merely claimants who aspire to be king but have not yet crowned themselves and thus become pretenders a settlement is much more difficult to reach.

[Ran]

It should be noted that it is speculation that Stannis had a formal ceremony, or that that ceremony happened at any point long prior to Cressen's prologue. It is never addressed.  One can easily see a situation where Stannis expects a flock of people to come seeking him, and that he holds off a formal crowning or declaration in that time to increase the witnesses. Then time passes longer and longer, things move ahead of him, and he reluctantly takes the crown with his paltry handful of codfish lords to stand witness to it.

We don't really know. So it's better to focus on what we do know, which is that Westeros at large knows Renly has crowned himself looooong before Westeros knows Stannis has.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

It should be noted that it is speculation that Stannis had a formal ceremony, or that that ceremony happened at any point long prior to Cressen's prologue. It is never addressed.  One can easily see a situation where Stannis expects a flock of people to come seeking him, and that he holds off a formal crowning or declaration in that time to increase the witnesses. Then time passes longer and longer, things move ahead of him, and he reluctantly takes the crown with his paltry handful of codfish lords to stand witness to it.

It doesn't have to have been a coronation ceremony as such. Could also have been just a proclamation or a mere announcement. But his people and court knew that he is the king now and his daughter a princess. Else they wouldn't have styled him in this manner. A correct fellow like Pylos wouldn't 'Your Grace' Stannis or refer to Shireen as princess if that wasn't accurate as per the rules of the courtly society he lived in. And those people cannot have known how Stannis wanted to be called by divine (or authorial) fiat, can they?

There are no informal kings in this world.

And, no, one cannot see a situation where Stannis expects many people flocking to him while nobody knows there is going to be a ceremony of any kind, nor an indication that Robert Baratheon's younger brother would try to usurp the throne of his nephew. For that it would have to be established first that people who are not Stannis knew about what Stannis wanted to do - and what he believed he knew about Cersei's children.

They would have to be invited.

If I were to speculate I'd say the coronation happened before Stannis sent Davos to the Stormlands and before he had Davos recruit Salladhor Saan (who is present at the feast where Cressen kills himself). One can also imagine that the lords present at the feast are at Dragonstone for quite some time already, possibly since the speculative coronation took place. We do know they are already waiting for Stannis to act.

1 minute ago, Ran said:

We don't really know. So it's better to focus on what we do know, which is that Westeros at large knows Renly has crowned himself looooong before Westeros knows Stannis has.

That is not in doubt. Although it actually makes little sense that this is the case. Hence the plot hole. It is very hard to swallow why the hell Stannis would have his people 'Your Grace' him but refuse to actually tell the rest of Westeros that he is the king now, that he has crowned himself, and that the boy they think is the king isn't.

It makes sense why he would wait and watch Ned and Robert die - he never liked them - but why he would be as stupid as to not immediately try to use the knowledge he has to prevent Joff's ascension or make it at least much more difficult just doesn't make any sense.

I mean, Renly beat him to all that. How could he let that happen? Why did he sent messengers to some Stormlords and not, you know, to his brother, the Lord Renly of Storm's End?

This is why I've written extensively in the past about the fact that George simply dropped the ball on developing the Baratheon brothers properly. We have no idea what Stannis did after he learned about Robert's death and that was never elaborated on later. If he put some thoughts on the matter it would have dawned on him that if Renly doesn't know anything about the twincest and Stannis knows about that it would make sense for Stannis to try to recruit Renly to his cause or at least not oppose him in his attempt to take the Iron Throne. But as far as we know Stannis never even considered this much less ever wrote a letter to Storm's End or Highgarden or sent a messenger before the news of Renly's coronation reached him. Why is that?

Perhaps one can try to salvage the thing by imagining Stannis as thinking everybody magically would know that he was the rightful king and that they therefore would weep with joy and start a pilgrimage to Dragonstone to do homage to him at the lavish coronation feast he never announced. But that would make a caricature out of him. Yes, one can imagine he may have hoped some people would call on him after Robert's death, but how could he have hoped that the Starks would care about him - he, who ignored all the letters Ned sent to him? How could he expect Lysa Arryn to seek him out when he tried to steal her son? And so on.

Stannis has a warped personality but he isn't written as that stupid a character.

[The Young Maester]

13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, if that was the case he'd not have wanted Ned to be Hand and Joffrey King.

His main motivation was removing Cersei from power, not glory for himself. Now that is not to say self-preservation and glory are mutually exclusive, but the main reason he rebels is self-preservation after his warning to Ned and then Ned's subsequent arrest.

Again, not true considering his original offer to support Ned's coup.

Renly and the Tyrells were called to Kings Landing to renew their oaths to Joffrey or be declared enemies of the realm. Renly had to make a decision 1) risk being arrested and executed like Ned was, 2) flee the realm 3) rebel.

At that time Stannis was not an option as he had not declared. Also it may well be that the Tyrells and other Reach and Stormlords would not rebel against Robert's children for Stannis. The difference between Renly and Stannis challenging Joffrey may well be the margins of victory.

eh? Stannis did not declare himself till after Robb and Renly did.

No one expects Robb to put down his crown once he put it on, why do some of the same people expect Renly, with the largest army in the realm, do the same?

 

I agree with everything you said. But when I wrote that I was thinking about the parley outside storms end in acok. More or less my points were referred to renlys reasons of why he didnt accept Stannis’s offer. 

But I agree that Renly rebelled mainly because he would never feel safe under Lannister rule. 

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

I agree with everything you said. But when I wrote that I was thinking about the parley outside storms end in acok. More or less my points were referred to renlys reasons of why he didnt accept Stannis’s offer. 

But I agree that Renly rebelled mainly because he would never feel safe under Lannister rule. 

What could Renly do? Stannis gave him an ultimatum, that he'd bes destroyed tomorrow if he did not surrender. Mace, his primary supporter, rebelled on the proviso that he, Renly, would be King, his daughter Queen and he would have the King's ear as his Hand. Mace is hundreds of miles away, even if Renly considered dropping his claim, he's not in a position to do so until he's consulted his Kingmaker, who may or may not follow his lead in supporting Stannis.

The Reach and Stormlords who Renly got to rebel did not do so because they hate Robert's son (Joffrey being a bastard, both literally and figuratively, is not known to the general population) or have any serious issues with the Lannisters. They did so because Renly was a hugely popular and loved individual who was open to having his major supporters have a seat at the table.

Stannis is not Renly, he's an entirely less attractive idea of king for most of the Lords who have rebelled. He punished Davos, the man who saved his life after the War. Will Mace and the other lords who committed treason for Renly be similarly punished once Stannis is in power? Who knows, but it is going to be something that is on their mind.

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Because he is fucking Loras and Mace does everything his favorite son asks of him?

Why do people keep on bringing this up as the reason why Renly has support from the Reach?

"Renly was brave and gentle, Grandmother," said Margaery. "Father liked him as well, and so did Loras."

The like of father and son seemed to be independent of each other, rather than based on just one of them liking him.

And Mace is not the only Reach lord who liked/loved Renly

"If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best? Where is Brienne of Tarth, I ask you?"

I don't think Mace liked (or disliked) Renly because he was fucking his son. I'd actually be surprised if Mace even thought they were in a serious relationship, though he may have suspected they were more than friends (much like the British upper class in the early 19th century and before would have suggestions of young men engaging in such relationships at boarding/military schools in their youth).

 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

It is ludicrous to assume 'King Joffrey' could afford to execute or murder his uncle Renly - a great lord in his own right -

It is not at all considering he did that to his prospective father-in-law. Renly thought it a possibility and what happened to Ned, who, from Renly's POV, in their last conversation was being loyal to Joffrey and Cersei.

 

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why do people keep on bringing this up as the reason why Renly has support from the Reach?

Because Renly was, in the end, a twenty-year-old youth who, simply because of that youth, could have hardly had done much to win the eternal love and loyalty of hundreds of Reach lords and knights.

He may have had some friends there (but not the Redwyne twins - they he and Loras abandoned to Cersei's mercy), but the reason why the Tyrells ended up backing Renly and marrying his daughter to him is because of Loras. That is the only explanation given in the books.

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is not at all considering he did that to his prospective father-in-law. Renly thought it a possibility and what happened to Ned, who, from Renly's POV, in their last conversation was being loyal to Joffrey and Cersei.

Ned was executed because he wanted to topple Joffrey - Cersei offered Ned quite a few ways out of the mess they were in, didn't she?

The idea that Cersei was hellbent on killing Renly is simply without basis, especially after Robert was dead and she was at war with half the Realm already. Renly could have won high honors and offices and titles by offering his help to Cersei the way Littlefinger later did. She simply couldn't afford fighting him. Leaving while Robert was dying was smart to prevent that he and Loras become hostages ... crowning himself wasn't.

In this world Renly is just a complete sucker. He is the only youngest brother in the entire historical setting we have so far who tried to usurp the places of both his nephews and niece and his elder brother.

[Trigger Warning]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Because Renly was, in the end, a twenty-year-old youth who, simply because of that youth, could have hardly had done much to win the eternal love and loyalty of hundreds of Reach lords and knights.

And Augustus formed the second triumvirate at age 20, what does his age have to do with anything? He's 20 years old and is "friends" with the heads of some of the most prominent houses in the Reach. Whether you want to admit it on not that will have a direct effect on his influence there, GRRM tells us of Renly's politicking against the Lannisters and he was prepared to violently remove Cersei from power by essentially taking Joffrey hostage with Ned as regent, is it really so hard to believe that he has purposely cultivated his influence in the Reach? Or did GRRM make a point of mentioning the powerful lords that love him for funsies. 

[frenin]

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Because Renly was, in the end, a twenty-year-old youth who, simply because of that youth, could have hardly had done much to win the eternal love and loyalty of hundreds of Reach lords and knights.

Except that he did gain the love of a good prominent bunch. Robert became King at his age, in no lesser part because he won the love and loyalty of the lords lf those kingdoms.

 

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He may have had some friends there (but not the Redwyne twins - they he and Loras abandoned to Cersei's mercy), but the reason why the Tyrells ended up backing Renly and marrying his daughter to him is because of Loras. That is the only explanation given in the books.

But that's not the only explanation, since we're told that he had plenty of ties in the Reach and he got along with the Tyrells.

The very fact that Mace confided him Loras to be his squire shows this. Mace wanted his daughter to be Queen.

 

 

 

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Cersei was hellbent on killing Renly is simply without basis, especially after Robert was dead and she was at war with half the Realm already. Renly could have won high honors and offices and titles by offering his help to Cersei the way Littlefinger later did. She simply couldn't afford fighting him. Leaving while Robert was dying was smart to prevent that he and Loras become hostages ... crowning himself wasn't.

Cersei herself is the one saying that she wanted to deal with Robert's brothers. There was no love between them and Renly openly distrusted and wanted the Lannisters out. The idea of Renly and the Lannisters in bed is pretty much implausible.