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Did Renly even need to declare himself King?


Angel Eyes

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3 hours ago, frenin said:

Except that he did gain the love of a good prominent bunch. Robert became King at his age, in no lesser part because he won the love and loyalty of the lords lf those kingdoms.

Agreed. The "eternal" thing is some real goalpost shifting. But they loved him enough for this, from Tyrion's first chapter in ASoS:

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Most of Stannis's host had been Renly's to start, and they went right back over at the sight of him in that shiny green armor.

 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Cersei herself is the one saying that she wanted to deal with Robert's brothers. There was no love between them and Renly openly distrusted and wanted the Lannisters out. The idea of Renly and the Lannisters in bed is pretty much implausible.

Yep. Cersei would never trust Robert's brothers, and vice-versa. This notion that Renly could ever be allied with the Lannisters is cuckoo. Renly would never be safe in the Lannister court, because he was too much an equal, and equals would not be borne. Could he be executed? Sure he could. Could he die by "accident" or by "illness", ostensibly free or while imprisoned? Sure.

Given this reality, opposing Joffrey is the only rational choice. crowning himself -- whether as the king of the Seven Kingdoms or the king of the Reach and the Stormlands -- or backing some other king that is not Joffrey are the only actual choices before him.

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14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly has no clue about the twincest.

Well if he did not know then why did he flee from the capital and declare himself king? He has no reason to believe that Cersei wants him dead. Unless of course he was just power-hungry and wanted to be king.

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis has long ago crowned himself before he hears word of Renly's would-be usurpation. He is introduced as 'King Stannis' and his daughter as 'Princess Shireen' in the Prologue of ACoK, long before he sends his letters.

Stannis made a glaring and completely stupid mistake by not publicly declaring his claim immediately after he learned about Robert's death, but it is quite clear he crowned himself king immediately after Robert died.

What's unclear throughout those early weeks and months is how he will go about to take what he thinks is his by right, not that he is going to do that.

Actually  he only officially crowns himself in the letter.

“All men know me for the trueborn son of Steffon Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End, by his lady wife Cassana of House Estermont. I declare upon the honor of my House that my beloved brother Robert, our late king, left no trueborn issue of his body, the boy Joffrey, the boy Tommen, and the girl Myrcella being abominations born of incest between Cersei Lannister and her brother Jaime the Kingslayer. By right of birth and blood, I do this day lay claim to the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. Let all true men declare their loyalty. Done in the Light of the Lord, under the sign and seal of Stannis of House Baratheon, the First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.”-A Clash of kings.

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14 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

I would argue that the prologue of A Clash of Kings specifically shows that Stannis declared before Renly because when Davos goes to the Stormlands, Renly hasnt declared yet. That would also mean he declares before Robb as well, since Robb hears about Renly's crowning during his own.

Actually he only OFFICIALLY makes his coronation known in the first Davos chapter when he sends the letters

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14 hours ago, Ran said:

As others note, all the evidence -- from Pycelle, Cersei, Catelyn, Renly -- is that he did not know about it.

That said, it's not stupid to think Cersei was going to move against him and Stannis because as Robert's brothers they would have a claim on having some involvement (possibly as regents) for her son. In any case,  Varys explicitly tells Ned in the cells

We Varys and all the other people who know about the twincest are aware that Cersei wants to kill Robert's brothers. But if Renly did not know then he has no reason to believe his life was in danger. Even if Cersei does not want them to have influence over the governing of the realm, the most she would do is kick them out of the small council. Renly himself claims to not know about, but he could easily lie to make Stannis seem like a usurper and to prevent the Starks from joining him.

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15 hours ago, Ran said:

As others note, all the evidence -- from Pycelle, Cersei, Catelyn, Renly -- is that he did not know about it.

That said, it's not stupid to think Cersei was going to move against him and Stannis because as Robert's brothers they would have a claim on having some involvement (possibly as regents) for her son. In any case,  Varys explicitly tells Ned in the cells:

 

He does not inform the realm he is contesting for the throne, and the basis for it, until the ravens are sent in ACoK. According to one of the best fan-made timelines trying to piece it all together, the time between Robert's death and Stannis's proclamation is ~5 months, while the time between Robert's death and Renly being crowned in Highgarden is ~3 months. 

Stannis certainly had some reason to keep quiet, but taking that long to even let people know he was contesting for the Iron Throne was a mistake. It's hard to blame Renly for moving in this regard.

We Varys and all the other people who know about the twincest are aware that Cersei wants to kill Robert's brothers. But if Renly did not know then he has no reason to believe his life was in danger. Even if Cersei does not want them to have influence over the governing of the realm, the most she would do is kick them out of the small council. Renly himself claims to not know about, but he could easily lie to make Stannis seem like a usurper and to prevent the Starks from joining him. 

 

Sure he does not inform the Realm but he was a cautious man and probably was waiting for the right oppurtunity to strike. Kinda like what Doran Martell has been doing. Also I am not blaming Renly for moving in. I am just saying that Stannis cannot really be accused of  sulking and doing nothing.

 

 

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On 5/6/2020 at 5:33 PM, Angel Eyes said:

... So he didn't need to declare himself king at all and his rebellion is pointless.

His rebellion probably precedes his desire to become king.

He fled Kings Landing before Robert had even breathed his last. That left him the choice of exile or gathering friends and supporters to protect him. He was so successful in calling the banners that the size of his army convinced him he was worthy to be king.

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45 minutes ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

We Varys and all the other people who know about the twincest are aware that Cersei wants to kill Robert's brothers. But if Renly did not know then he has no reason to believe his life was in danger.

But he does think his life was in danger.

Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us."

"Then we should pray that Robert does not die."
 
Renly is well aware the danger that Cersei is.
 
"He had sworn to protect Robert's children," Renly said. "I lacked the strength to act alone, so when Lord Eddard turned me away, I had no choice but to flee. Had I stayed, I knew the queen would see to it that I did not long outlive my brother."
 
Renly's not just in danger because of the twincest, he's a Baratheon, a popular and powerful one at that. Kings have a habit of getting rid of potential blood rivals. Check out how many were culled in the reign of Henry VII and VIII or just look at the current North Korean royal family.
 
 
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 Even if Cersei does not want them to have influence over the governing of the realm, the most she would do is kick them out of the small council.

But that is not true. We have Cersei herself back this up.

Eddard Stark took up right where Arryn had left off; his meddling had forced her to rid herself of Robert sooner than she would have liked, before she could deal with his pestilential brothers.

That does not sound like a simple removal from the Small Council.

We know from Cersei's POV what she was going to do with Renly and we know from Renly, both before and after he declared himself King, that he suspected Cersei would act against him.

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Renly himself claims to not know about, but he could easily lie to make Stannis seem like a usurper and to prevent the Starks from joining him.

Why would he lie? This is good for Renly, having fewer people in front of him in the line of succession was good for him. Stannis was about to be dealt with, he had just challenged Renly to battle. By the time Cat had returned to her son there would only be Renly left.

Also. If Renly knew why not tell Ned when he was worried about Cersei's actions when Robert was on his deathbed? He had grounds for Cersei's arrest there and then. Why not use it then?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

Well if he did not know then why did he flee from the capital and declare himself king? He has no reason to believe that Cersei wants him dead. Unless of course he was just power-hungry and wanted to be king.

Because Cersei wants him dead...

 

1 hour ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

We Varys and all the other people who know about the twincest are aware that Cersei wants to kill Robert's brothers. But if Renly did not know then he has no reason to believe his life was in danger. Even if Cersei does not want them to have influence over the governing of the realm, the most she would do is kick them out of the small council. Renly himself claims to not know about, but he could easily lie to make Stannis seem like a usurper and to prevent the Starks from joining him.

Yeah but Renly was perceptive enough to get a thing or two about the Lannisters. And he knew they wanted him gone.

That's the very reason why he offers Ned his help. The Starks weren't joining Stannis at that point, Robb was crowned King, war was going well for them, they had no reason to join Stannis.

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

But he does think his life was in danger.

Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us."

"Then we should pray that Robert does not die."
 
Renly is well aware the danger that Cersei is.
 
"He had sworn to protect Robert's children," Renly said. "I lacked the strength to act alone, so when Lord Eddard turned me away, I had no choice but to flee. Had I stayed, I knew the queen would see to it that I did not long outlive my brother."
 
Renly's not just in danger because of the twincest, he's a Baratheon, a popular and powerful one at that. Kings have a habit of getting rid of potential blood rivals. Check out how many were culled in the reign of Henry VII and VIII or just look at the current North Korean royal family.
 
 

But that is not true. We have Cersei herself back this up.

Eddard Stark took up right where Arryn had left off; his meddling had forced her to rid herself of Robert sooner than she would have liked, before she could deal with his pestilential brothers.

That does not sound like a simple removal from the Small Council.

We know from Cersei's POV what she was going to do with Renly and we know from Renly, both before and after he declared himself King, that he suspected Cersei would act against him.

Why would he lie? This is good for Renly, having fewer people in front of him in the line of succession was good for him. Stannis was about to be dealt with, he had just challenged Renly to battle. By the time Cat had returned to her son there would only be Renly left.

Also. If Renly knew why not tell Ned when he was worried about Cersei's actions when Robert was on his deathbed? He had grounds for Cersei's arrest there and then. Why not use it then?

 

 

 

I know that he rightfully believes that his life was in danger, but the thing is why does he think that? Why does he think that the Lannisters want him dead? The only explanation is that he knew about the twincest and therefore Cersei wants him dead. Otherwise there is no reason for him to believe so.

 

Also there is no doubt that if Robb had indeed thought Stannis to be the true heir, he would have joined forces with him. Renly does not want that. So it makes sense for him ridicule Stannis' claim.

Having more people in front of him in the line of succession does not matter for him, since the whole basis of his claiming the throne is that the line of succession does not matter and it is all about might.

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1 minute ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

I know that he rightfully believes that his life was in danger, but the thing is why does he think that? Why does he think that the Lannisters want him dead? The only explanation is that he knew about the twincest and therefore Cersei wants him dead. Otherwise there is no reason for him to believe so.

People have provided other reasons, and they're valid. You don't appear to accept them as valid, which is fine. But many other people do. That's how it is sometimes.

It's probably enough that Renly is Robert's brother. But on top of that, there's evidence that Renly and Cersei had a tense relationship. Renly had been actively scheming to replace Cersei, and presumably didn't know whether Cersei suspected this. One of Renly's brothers had been killed and another had fled the city. The idea that Renly would be comfortable and feel safe enough to remain in the city, in Cersei's power, doesn't seem credible.

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5 hours ago, Ran said:

Yep. Cersei would never trust Robert's brothers, and vice-versa. This notion that Renly could ever be allied with the Lannisters is cuckoo. Renly would never be safe in the Lannister court, because he was too much an equal, and equals would not be borne. Could he be executed? Sure he could. Could he die by "accident" or by "illness", ostensibly free or while imprisoned? Sure.

Sorry, that is not making much sense. That is like saying Daemon Targaryen and Corlys Velaryon could never work together because they clashed over the succession in 101 AC. People can and do change as political realities change. Couldn't Cersei and Renly work together against a common enemy like Corlys and Daemon did during the Dance? Or earlier during the war on the Stepstones? Or take Corlys Velaryon after the death of Rhaenyra: Did the Greens insist on murdering the old man? Not they did not, they decided to continue to use him because they needed him. Cersei and Joffrey and Tywin could have needed Renly's help, too. Especially in light of the fact that Cersei expected Stannis to rebel and the Riverlands were already at war.

It is also rather easy how Cersei/the Lannisters could have sweetened such a deal if they wanted to or saw advantage in Renly bringing the Stormlords or Reach lords to their aid - by marrying Myrcella to Renly.

Renly wanted to be king, that's why he crowned himself, and that's the end of it. It was correct to flee court while Robert was dying because Renly could definitely become a hostage, but the idea that Cersei would have just destroyed a great lord of the Realm who had so many ties to other great lords that he could assemble the largest army Westeros had ever seen in a very short time is just not convincing to me.

The idea that you have to crown yourself as a brother of a king, quite frankly, ridiculous in the scenario we talk about. Joffrey's rule was in danger from all sides even before Renly proclaimed himself. This was a time when Renly could have played the role of kingmaker Mace Tyrell and Littlefinger later played so effectively. You are aware that Tywin Lannister didn't execute Mace Tyrell for any of his transgressions earlier, right? He could have offered his help to Joffrey and Cersei, to Tywin, to Stannis, even to Robb and his allies, or even Balon if he had wanted not to be king. But he wanted to be king.

It seems to me that Renly's proclamation was influenced by the fact that the Lannister regime was crumbling. There was war in the Riverlands already, and as we later hear in ACoK Renly planned - despite his huge army - to let Robb and his followers deal with the Lannisters in the Riverlands so that he can sweep in, clean up, and claim the throne.

5 hours ago, Ran said:

Given this reality, opposing Joffrey is the only rational choice. crowning himself -- whether as the king of the Seven Kingdoms or the king of the Reach and the Stormlands -- or backing some other king that is not Joffrey are the only actual choices before him.

His choice includes also to try to bridge the gap between him and Cersei. By, for instance, approach Lord Tywin directly. He can be pretty reasonable. Enemies/opponents to not have to become mortal enemies - Renly chose to oppose King Joffrey, he didn't have to. And there is no textual evidence that Cersei or Tywin were hellbent on annihilating Renly before he crowned himself king.

That Renly can change his plans is rather evident in the whole Margaery thing - originally he planned to make her Robert's queen but then he changed that to make her his own queen.

As for the army issue:

The problem here just is that what Renly was doing was utter and complete treason. It is hard to swallow that all the Reach just wanted to crown the youngest brother of the late king. The best way to make sense of that is that the Tyrells really had a lot of sway over many of the younger lords and knights of the Reach, especially since famous Loras was so close with Renly.

There is also, of course, the fact that Renly looked like a young Robert - and Robert himself can, perhaps, be seen as a man who was as charismatic and magical as Daemon Blackfyre was (perhaps even more) and Renly inherited all that because he looked like Robert. But it is still odd that the men of the Reach would care that much about a Baratheon pretender.

I've been saying it for years - Renly isn't a properly developed character. We have no idea how the whole campaign started and what their actual reasoning was and what obstacles - if any - they had to overcome. One can speculate, but since that's actual stuff we should have information about it is not very satisfying doing so.

2 hours ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

Well if he did not know then why did he flee from the capital and declare himself king? He has no reason to believe that Cersei wants him dead. Unless of course he was just power-hungry and wanted to be king.

Renly had been plotting to destroy Queen Cersei for months - by getting Robert to bed and eventually marry Margaery Tyrell. Cersei knew about this or suspected it. There was no love between them.

But honestly - I don't really by Renly's 'I'm afraid for my life and have to crown myself for that reason' routine. I think that's at least in part a convenient excuse to mask his own ambition - like Daemon Blackfyre likely claimed he had had no intention to ever crown himself until evil Daeron decided to send the Kingsguard to arrest him. It is much more successful if you disguise or present treason as self-defense.

George has the despicable Green Council cite similar 'reasons' as pretexts for their coup at the start of the Dance - when nothing indicates that Rhaenyra and Daemon wanted to murder or execute Otto, Alicent, or her children and grandchildren. Nor did anyone turn the Red Keep into a whorehouse or stuff like that.

I also find the idea compelling that Renly already wanted to be king back when he offered Ned his help - by means of eventually murdering Cersei's children when they were in their custody. But that is just an idea of mine, there is no evidence for any of that.

2 hours ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

Actually  he only officially crowns himself in the letter.

“All men know me for the trueborn son of Steffon Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End, by his lady wife Cassana of House Estermont. I declare upon the honor of my House that my beloved brother Robert, our late king, left no trueborn issue of his body, the boy Joffrey, the boy Tommen, and the girl Myrcella being abominations born of incest between Cersei Lannister and her brother Jaime the Kingslayer. By right of birth and blood, I do this day lay claim to the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. Let all true men declare their loyalty. Done in the Light of the Lord, under the sign and seal of Stannis of House Baratheon, the First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.”-A Clash of kings.

That is Stannis publicly proclaiming that he is starting his campaign. As I laid out above - Stannis is a king before all that, and in Westeros you are only a king if you have been crowned or proclaimed king. You are not a king when you just think you are the rightful heir. Then you are a prince or some lord or knight or nobody at all (like Laenor Velaryon was at the Great Council, a boy, the son of a lord and princess who had no titles of his own until the honorary knighthood he got two weeks before his wedding).

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24 minutes ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

I know that he rightfully believes that his life was in danger, but the thing is why does he think that? Why does he think that the Lannisters want him dead? The only explanation is that he knew about the twincest and therefore Cersei wants him dead. Otherwise there is no reason for him to believe so.

 

Also there is no doubt that if Robb had indeed thought Stannis to be the true heir, he would have joined forces with him. Renly does not want that. So it makes sense for him ridicule Stannis' claim.

Having more people in front of him in the line of succession does not matter for him, since the whole basis of his claiming the throne is that the line of succession does not matter and it is all about might.

"So be it. Stannis was never the most cherished of brothers, I confess. Do you suppose this tale of his is true? If Joffrey is the Kingslayer’s get—” “—your brother is the lawful heir.” “While he lives,” Renly admitted. “Though it’s a fool’s law, wouldn’t you agree?"


So is your contention that during this little musing of Renly's in his tent he was putting on an act for Catelyn? Care to give me absolutely any reasons as to why he would do this and why GRRM would put it in? 

Obviously having less people in the line of succession helps him, it makes him easier to support and adds to his legitimacy. As much as Renly's goes on about his meritocratic right to the throne the reality is he can only even press a claim because he's the King's brother. Cersei wants him dead because he opposes her, he plotted to have her supplanted by Margaery and was prepared to perform a coup the night of Robert's death. He's a non Lannister relative of the king with the love of the people, the Stormlands and the Reach and he hates the Lannisters, he even openly mocks Joffrey when Arya throws his sword in the river and Storm's End will pass to Cersei's children is he dies he has plenty of reasons to fear for his life. 

Ultimately there is not one scrap of textual evidence that he believes in the twincest before Stannis' letter, he doesn't mention it to Ned, he doesn't proclaim it when he makes his claim. Nothing, it is all speculation. 
 

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4 minutes ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

I know that he rightfully believes that his life was in danger, but the thing is why does he think that?

Cersei is power hungry and he and Stannis have seats that Robert gave away to his brothers instead of being held on for his 'sons'.

GRRM: Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity.

Plus Renly is openly ambitious with very close ties to the Tyrells and other Reach Houses. Cersei may not want that kind of rivalry for her own children.

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Why does he think that the Lannisters want him dead?

He does not. He thinks Cersei wants him dead, which she does.

Renly is openly trying to get Robert to take a Tyrell mistress/wife. He is trying to diminish Cersei's influence and power at court. Such actions are rarely without consequence. Cromwell and Anne Boelyn's downfall was both built on making enemies of the other as they competed for influence and control of the King.

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The only explanation is that he knew about the twincest and therefore Cersei wants him dead. Otherwise there is no reason for him to believe so.

That is not the only explanation. We can look at various examples in the courts of the English and French monarchies when powerful members of the court became enemies of the Queen and tried to replace her for reasons of pragmatism/self interest.

Cersei herself knows that she can be set aside.

"My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?"

And Renly's not exactly being subtle about it, first with asking Ned about Margaery's apperance and the letters he sends to the Tyrells

The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Littlefinger … the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing. Yet Lord Stark's the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he'll have the truth.

Notice Varys does not seem to think Renly and the Tyrells have the truth.

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Also there is no doubt that if Robb had indeed thought Stannis to be the true heir, he would have joined forces with him.

So what stopped him then? With Renly dead and Jaime's revelation, why did Robb not send word that he would serve Stannis?

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Renly does not want that. So it makes sense for him ridicule Stannis' claim.

But he seems pretty happy about it when he is alone with Robb's envoy, Cat. And does not push on her that it is a lie.

"You have a cheerful way of grieving," said Catelyn, whose distress was not feigned.
"Do I?" Renly shrugged. "So be it. Stannis was never the most cherished of brothers, I confess. Do you suppose this tale of his is true? If Joffrey is the Kingslayer's get—"
"—your brother is the lawful heir."
"While he lives," Renly admitted. "Though it's a fool's law, wouldn't you agree?
 
Renly is not trying to convince people to support him because he has the best claim, his nephews and brother are all ahead of him but because he has the most support.
 
Also the same conversation that he laughs at Stannis' story, is the same time he tells of his plot to marry Robert to Margaery. No one present thinks this is evidence that Renly knew of the incest. If it was evidence, he's not be so public with it.
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22 minutes ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

Also there is no doubt that if Robb had indeed thought Stannis to be the true heir, he would have joined forces with him. Renly does not want that. So it makes sense for him ridicule Stannis' claim.

Before he donned the crown is a given, since Robb did not want to become a traitor, after he crowned himself, it was too late, Robb had severed ties with the Baratheons, he wasn't coming back unless if brute force were involved.

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1 hour ago, Buried Treasure said:

His rebellion probably precedes his desire to become king.

He fled Kings Landing before Robert had even breathed his last. That left him the choice of exile or gathering friends and supporters to protect him. He was so successful in calling the banners that the size of his army convinced him he was worthy to be king.

That is what I mean by Renly not being a properly developed character. We have little to no idea what was going on inside him, but what little we know about the man shows that he has a carefully hidden cruel streak. He wanted the Targaryens in exile to be murdered, and when pushed by his shitty older brother he made it perfectly clear he would kill him on the battlefield. There is also the obvious fact that he would also have to away with Cersei, Tywin, Jaime, and the children to take his throne.

All that doesn't motivate me to see Renly in a positive light and paint him in all to bright colors. But one can do that because we know too little about the man as a character.

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9 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

And Augustus formed the second triumvirate at age 20, what does his age have to do with anything? He's 20 years old and is "friends" with the heads of some of the most prominent houses in the Reach. Whether you want to admit it on not that will have a direct effect on his influence there, GRRM tells us of Renly's politicking against the Lannisters and he was prepared to violently remove Cersei from power by essentially taking Joffrey hostage with Ned as regent, is it really so hard to believe that he has purposely cultivated his influence in the Reach? Or did GRRM make a point of mentioning the powerful lords that love him for funsies. 

See above. The problem is that essentially all the Reach would want to support a treasonous usurper who was claiming the throne just because he felt like it. Renly may have telling the story that he was 'in danger' from Cersei - but the lords and knights of the Reach weren't, right?

I'd say that the Tyrells taking the lead on the issue is what made his campaign for the throne possible.

It would be great if the author had developed this more - or would do so in the future. It is a very interesting question what the Stormlords thought when Renly called his banners? Many would have loved Robert - why would they want to rebel against his son and heir? How many Stormlanders were truly with Renly? How did the situation in the Reach go? Did Renly and Loras first go to Storm's End to raise a small army there, going to Highgarden with the plan to crown Renly king there? Or was that plan born while they were drunk at a feast, realizing that Renly could marry Margaery now that Robert was dead and be king in his stead?

We have no idea about any of that.

I find those issues and question important, though, because this king-hopping especially some of the Stormlords show is actually a very dishonorable behavior by the standards and values of the society they live in. If no Stormlord had an issue betraying Robert's son for Renly or ignoring Stannis' pleas, etc. then those people would be among the most wretched, least chivalrous men in the Seven Kingdoms.

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

That is what I mean by Renly not being a properly developed character. We have little to no idea what was going on inside him, but what little we know about the man shows that he has a carefully hidden cruel streak.

I disagree with that.

Just now, Lord Varys said:

 

He wanted the Targaryens in exile to be murdered,

Yup. They were planning on retaking their throne. Dany is very likely to be in a position to retake her father's throne, or at the very least bring war to Westeros in an attempt to take it.

This, unfortunately, is medieval pragmatism, not cruelty.

Just now, Lord Varys said:

 

and when pushed by his shitty older brother he made it perfectly clear he would kill him on the battlefield.

Stannis has an army of 5k and threatened to destroy him, what do you think was going to happen to him?

He is actually very clear that he does not want Stannis body despoiled after the battle, but wants it respected. 

Just now, Lord Varys said:

 

There is also the obvious fact that he would also have to away with Cersei, Tywin, Jaime, and the children to take his throne.

Yes. But again, the is medieval pragmatism.

Originally he only wanted Cersei out of the picture, not her children. Once Cersei gained power through her son. Once the, relatively, peaceful option was taken away from Renly it, it would be a more final one with Cersie and her sons likely dying as a result. Probably not Myrcella and Tywin, unless there was no other option.

 

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3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I disagree with that.

Yup. They were planning on retaking their throne. Dany is very likely to be in a position to retake her father's throne, or at the very least bring war to Westeros in an attempt to take it.

This, unfortunately, is medieval pragmatism, not cruelty.

I call medieval pragmatism cruelty - especially in light of the fact that shit like that never happened. There were deposed kings who were murdered, but I don't recall anyone murdering pretenders in exile.

George's world is much crueler than the way real royalty dealt with each other in the real world. Medieval succession didn't involve the crushing of princesses against walls - that was Roman succession, not the middle ages. There you had stable hereditary monarchies in most of the countries. And succession wars rarely, if at all, involved the eradication of bloodlines.

3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Stannis has an army of 5k and threatened to destroy him, what do you think was going to happen to him?

He is actually very clear that he does not want Stannis body despoiled after the battle, but wants it respected. 

I guess if he observes some common decencies he must be nice man. And he was so very clean as Olenna confirmed. Great chap.

To be clear, the greater shithead there is obviously Stannis who came there to murder Renly. But Renly just isn't much better.

3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Originally he only wanted Cersei out of the picture, not her children. Once Cersei gained power through her son. Once the, relatively, peaceful option was taken away from Renly it, it would be a more final one with Cersie and her sons likely dying as a result. Probably not Myrcella and Tywin, unless there was no other option.

What Renly wanted we don't know - because it is not really developed. The author didn't even bother to explain how this 'Margaery will replace Cersei' thing was supposed to go. We know the people involved believed it would work and thus that it is a fact, but not how exactly it is possible, nor what effects this would have on the royal children. Would Robert keep Joff as his heir after Marge gave him a proper Baratheon son who isn't a blond prick with a sadistic streak Robert is disgusted by?

I'd day 'medieval pragmatism' would dictate that Tywin and Jaime be killed, too, because alive they would continue to pose a threat to Renly's regime. And Myrcella, too, unless she was in Renly's hands and made a septa or something along those lines. Married to a man of Tywin's choosing she could become a danger to Renly and his 'children' - who would likely not be or not necessarily be seen as his seed, anyway - later down the road.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If he put some thoughts on the matter it would have dawned on him that if Renly doesn't know anything about the twincest and Stannis knows about that it would make sense for Stannis to try to recruit Renly to his cause or at least not oppose him in his attempt to take the Iron Throne. But as far as we know Stannis never even considered this much less ever wrote a letter to Storm's End or Highgarden or sent a messenger before the news of Renly's coronation reached him. Why is that?

Why would he ask Renly anything? Or Robb? Kings arent supposed to beg their subjects for help. The crowning of Renly and Robb was totally out of left field, Stannis never expected either of those things.

Renly only crowned himself because he knew Stannis was about to and didnt want to serve him or potentially lose some of his Stormlords

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14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I call medieval pragmatism cruelty - especially in light of the fact that shit like that never happened. There were deposed kings who were murdered, but I don't recall anyone murdering pretenders in exile.

There were failed attempts, or bargaining to get such figures arrested and then executed but I'm not sure if you are expecting there to be a paper trail for such attempts. Pretenders (at least British pretenders) were constantly moving from foreign court to foreign court in fear of their safety. This seems to be the basis of the Targs going from court to court is loosely based on.

As for successful assassination of rival claimants, many happened.

Louis I, heir of Charles VI, was assassinated on the orders of John the Fearless, who, 12 years later, was also assassinated by another rival heir.

James 1st of Scotland was assassinated by powerful Lords who did not want to lose control.

Richard, the middle son of William the Conqueror, is beleived to have been assassinated as he was killed on a hunting trip, securing the throne for his younger brother and (iirc) the men responsible surviving what they did.

Thomas Becket is probably the most famous assassination by a King on someone who was a clear threat to the power he held over his people.

Charles 1st of Flanders assassinated by Lords who knew he was coming for their power.

The deaths of the Princes in the Tower.

Henry VII was the subject of a few and, memory escapes me here, but may have ordered a few himself from the Lord of Calais (can't remember the correct nomenclature) on various pretenders.

 

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

George's world is much crueler than the way real royalty dealt with each other in the real world.

So moral relativism would suggest that Renly is not as cruel as you are suggesting, but the world he lives in is.

 

 

 

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