Did Renly even need to declare himself King?

[EccentricHorse11]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

People have provided other reasons, and they're valid. You don't appear to accept them as valid, which is fine. But many other people do. That's how it is sometimes.

It's probably enough that Renly is Robert's brother. But on top of that, there's evidence that Renly and Cersei had a tense relationship. Renly had been actively scheming to replace Cersei, and presumably didn't know whether Cersei suspected this. One of Renly's brothers had been killed and another had fled the city. The idea that Renly would be comfortable and feel safe enough to remain in the city, in Cersei's power, doesn't seem credible.

Most of the good people here gave reason as to why Renly was in danger and that Cersei really want to kill him. I never disagreed with that. Here is what I said in my very first post

Quote

One important thing to consider here is if he knew about the illegitimacy of Joff and the rest. If he did and Cersei knew about him knowing it, and he knew about Cersei knowing about him knowing it, then he is right to think that his life was in danger. Otherwise it just seems stupid to think that Cersei would actually kill him for no reason(dislike or even hate him? yes, but killing him seems to just be too extreme) So in that case crowning himself was just for glory and power.

Now I probably could have worded this better but my point here is  that Renly  

1)knew about the incest and fled the city knowing Cersei would kill him for knowing it, 

OR

2) Was just after power the whole time

So by pointing out  his scheming to make Margaery queen,  you have just supported the second possibility that I proposed, You have not disagreed with me at all.

[Bernie Mac]

1 minute ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

Most of the good people here gave reason as to why Renly was in danger and that Cersei really want to kill him. I never disagreed with that. Here is what I said in my very first post

Now I probably could have worded this better but my point here is  that Renly  

1)knew about the incest and fled the city knowing Cersei would kill him for knowing it, 

But Cersei does not think Renly knew about the incest. Yet she still wanted him and Stannis disposed of.

Renly has no idea that Ned knows about the incest, yet he is under the impression that Cersei wanted Ned dead as well.

1 minute ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

OR

2) Was just after power the whole time

Why does he suggest that Ned become Regent to Joffrey if all he was after was power?

1 minute ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

So by pointing out  his scheming to make Margaery queen,  you have just supported the second possibility that I proposed, You have not disagreed with me at all.

?

[EccentricHorse11]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly had been plotting to destroy Queen Cersei for months - by getting Robert to bed and eventually

 

1 hour ago, Trigger Warning said:

"So be it. Stannis was never the most cherished of brothers, I confess. Do you suppose this tale of his is true? If Joffrey is the Kingslayer’s get—” “—your brother is the lawful heir.” “While he lives,” Renly admitted. “Though it’s a fool’s law, wouldn’t you agree?"


So is your contention that during this little musing of Renly's in his tent he was putting on an act for Catelyn? Care to give me absolutely any reasons as to why he would do this and why GRRM would put it in? 

Obviously having less people in the line of succession helps him, it makes him easier to support and adds to his legitimacy. As much as Renly's goes on about his meritocratic right to the throne the reality is he can only even press a claim because he's the King's brother. Cersei wants him dead because he opposes her, he plotted to have her supplanted by Margaery and was prepared to perform a coup the night of Robert's death. He's a non Lannister relative of the king with the love of the people, the Stormlands and the Reach and he hates the Lannisters, he even openly mocks Joffrey when Arya throws his sword in the river and Storm's End will pass to Cersei's children is he dies he has plenty of reasons to fear for his life. 

Ultimately there is not one scrap of textual evidence that he believes in the twincest before Stannis' letter, he doesn't mention it to Ned, he doesn't proclaim it when he makes his claim. Nothing, it is all speculation. 
 

If indeed he knew about the twincest then of course it would make sense for him to cover it up. He does not want to give Stannis's claim any legitimacy. Even if  he publicly acknowledged that Joffrey is a bastard then that does not help him much since legally he would still be a usurper. It does however solve Stannis's biggest problem which is that no one seems to believe his claim. 

[EccentricHorse11]

18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

But Cersei does not think Renly knew about the incest. Yet she still wanted him and Stannis disposed of.

Renly has no idea that Ned knows about the incest, yet he is under the impression that Cersei wanted Ned dead as well.

Why does he suggest that Ned become Regent to Joffrey if all he was after was power?

?

I was under the impression that he also told Ned to make him King. I checked and that was only in the s**w. Sorry about that.

 

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

44 minutes ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

 

If indeed he knew about the twincest then of course it would make sense for him to cover it up.

It makes no sense when he is worried about his own life and trying to convince Ned to arrest the Queen. There is no reason for him to sit on such information in that scenario.

Knowing that the Queen was having an affair does not even need to mean that her children are bastards, but the affair itself would still be treason and grounds for Cersei to be removed from power.

Or there is the fact that Renly has control over Edric, Robert's only acknowledged bastard, who should be a leading contender for the throne if the realm believes Joffrey and his siblings are indeed bastards.

Renly's main motivation is to remove Cersei from power. That is not to say that he is not also ambitious, but these are not mutually exclusive positions to hold.

44 minutes ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

He does not want to give Stannis's claim any legitimacy.

Stannis' claim is as legitimate as his own. Renly's supporters are aware that Stannis and Joffrey are above him in the succession line, they don't care.

44 minutes ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

Even if  he publicly acknowledged that Joffrey is a bastard then that does not help him much since legally he would still be a usurper. It does however solve Stannis's biggest problem which is that no one seems to believe his claim. 

That is not Stannis' biggest problem. There is no reason to assume that Robb does not know the truth, given both Stannis' claim and Jaime's confession to his mother, yet Robb does not declare for Stannis.

Stannis' biggest problem is that Renly and Robb have already rebelled.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

Most of the good people here gave reason as to why Renly was in danger and that Cersei really want to kill him. I never disagreed with that. Here is what I said in my very first post

Now I probably could have worded this better but my point here is  that Renly  

1)knew about the incest and fled the city knowing Cersei would kill him for knowing it, 

OR

2) Was just after power the whole time

So by pointing out  his scheming to make Margaery queen,  you have just supported the second possibility that I proposed, You have not disagreed with me at all.

Well, the thing about the game of thrones is, famously, you win or you die. Renly clearly subscribes to this philosophy as much as Cersei does. By virtue of being the king's brother, Renly is in that game whether he wants to be or not. So is Cersei. So is Stannis, for that matter, and he adopts a similar approach to Renly, albeit he considers himself to have more justification. They all jockey for power at court, as do others - Jon Arryn, LF, Varys, Tywin, all for their own reasons and in their own way, but they all know that basic truth. They're in the game whether they want to be or not, and if they don't try to take and hold power, their life could be forfeit.

Renly couldn't sit still and let Cersei decide his fate, any more than Stannis or Jon could. That just gets you what Robert got.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why would he ask Renly anything? Or Robb? Kings arent supposed to beg their subjects for help. The crowning of Renly and Robb was totally out of left field, Stannis never expected either of those things.

Renly only crowned himself because he knew Stannis was about to and didnt want to serve him or potentially lose some of his Stormlords

Renly never expected Stannis to crown himself or oppose him in the field. At least that's what he told Catelyn. He could have been lying there, but we don't know.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

There were failed attempts, or bargaining to get such figures arrested and then executed but I'm not sure if you are expecting there to be a paper trail for such attempts. Pretenders (at least British pretenders) were constantly moving from foreign court to foreign court in fear of their safety. This seems to be the basis of the Targs going from court to court is loosely based on.

As for successful assassination of rival claimants, many happened.

Louis I, heir of Charles VI, was assassinated on the orders of John the Fearless, who, 12 years later, was also assassinated by another rival heir.

James 1st of Scotland was assassinated by powerful Lords who did not want to lose control.

Richard, the middle son of William the Conqueror, is beleived to have been assassinated as he was killed on a hunting trip, securing the throne for his younger brother and (iirc) the men responsible surviving what they did.

Thomas Becket is probably the most famous assassination by a King on someone who was a clear threat to the power he held over his people.

Charles 1st of Flanders assassinated by Lords who knew he was coming for their power.

The deaths of the Princes in the Tower.

Henry VII was the subject of a few and, memory escapes me here, but may have ordered a few himself from the Lord of Calais (can't remember the correct nomenclature) on various pretenders.

The Wars of the Roses is late 15th century - that is not representative of the middle ages, might not even be part of them depending how you reckon things. If you look the Hundred Years' War I don't see anyone trying to win by assassinating the other monarch or by murdering captive royals. The Anarchy was bad, but Matilda didn't put down King Stephen when she had the chance, right?

Overall, medieval wars were not ugly for royalty. If you were captured you were ransomed, not murdered. Things like the princes in the tower are more modern atrocities and seem to be a result of society devolving to savagery in the wake of a long civil war. This was not the standard thing.

There were certainly some murders and stuff, but things like the Red Wedding, the murders of Rhaegar's wife and children, assassination plans for exiled royalty are pretty rare. Even back in Merovingian and Karolingian days your head was shorn and you were imprisoned in a monastery. And in Constantinople you were blinded - also a cruel practice that only developed later - but not just murdered.

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

So moral relativism would suggest that Renly is not as cruel as you are suggesting, but the world he lives in is.

I'd say Renly is one representative of the rotten and corrupt court he lives at. Eddard Stark embodies justice and honor, and the others are, to a man, truly the Dogs of the Usurper.

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Wars of the Roses is late 15th century - that is not representative of the middle ages,

But it is representative of ASoIaF, which everyone knows -- because GRRM has been explicit -- was one of the major influences on the world depicted in ASoIaF. He even thought that maybe he should be writing a straight Wars of the Roses historical novel back in 1991.

[Lord Varys]

Overall, the problem here is that Renly just isn't a very well developed character. We really don't know what he was about at his heart.

Just take the Cersei-Renly issue - there is no explanation as why they didn't get along, just as there is no explanation aside Stannis' personality why Renly and Stannis and Stannis and Cersei didn't get along.

One can speculate that Cersei wanted to get rid of Robert's brothers because Robert's children were Jaime's and if that ever came out or were believed then Robert's brothers could usurp the places of Joffrey and Tommen. But even that is conjecture. The author never tells us.

Renly's feelings towards Cersei and his issues with the Lannisters are completely unclear. We have no explanation why he wanted to replace Cersei with Margaery. Nor an explanation as to why Renly should have been 'afraid for his life' while Robert lay dying. Did he know that Cersei knew/suspected that he wanted to replace her with Margaery? If so, then this is never mentioned anywhere.

The problem with that whole setting, in my opinion, just is that George just never developed the Baratheons and Robert's reign very much. We have no clue what happened during Robert's reign at court and how the various characters - especially the Baratheon brothers themselves - interacted with each other. The author focuses on distant history like the last years of the reign of the Mad King as if that was yesterday - everybody has to offer paragraphs of memories on Rhaegar and Aerys and Rossart and Chelsted and the old Kingsguard, etc. but nobody does even know who Littlefinger's and Renly's predecessors on the Small Council were - nor do they think about what those people made of their dismissal and how they felt about King Robert and his court thereafter (assuming they didn't die in office).

Renly is a complete mystery/failure as a character. He was a child during the Rebellion - how is it that Robert and Stannis were not father and mother to him? Wasn't Stannis caring for him during the siege of Storm's End? Did Robert dump the boy at Storm's End or was he raised at court as Robert's ward, page, and squire? Why didn't Stannis care for his brother if Robert did not? Why did Robert make Renly Lord of Storm's End and when exactly happened that?

All that are mysteries. And it is not that surprising considering Renly's entire function as character is to be shining distraction for two chapters in ACoK.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

But it is representative of ASoIaF, which everyone knows -- because GRRM has been explicit -- was one of the major influences on the world depicted in ASoIaF. He even thought that maybe he should be writing a straight Wars of the Roses historical novel back in 1991.

Sure, I didn't argue against but the idea that Renly is somehow representative of something called 'medieval pragmatism'.

[Darth Sidious]

On 5/6/2020 at 12:33 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So this is an extension of my post on the Unconventional Opinions dumpsterfire of a thread, but if you go by the Great Council of 101 AC's rulings and Viserys II taking the throne ahead of his nieces, Renly is Stannis' heir because Shireen is female and therefore does not count in the line of succession. So he didn't need to declare himself king at all and his rebellion is pointless.

Renly has beliefs.  He is a populists who thought the people should have a choice.  Stannis was not wanted.  Renly was giving the people what they wanted.  In his mind at least.  

Let me add to what I wrote.  I am not saying Renly was necessarily right to do this.  I am merely looking for a reason why he would do what he did.  Robert and Stannis took the throne from the Targaryens.  If they could do it why should he not be able to do the same?  Renly was willing to ignore the law because his brothers did the same thing.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly is a complete mystery/failure as a character. He was a child during the Rebellion - how is it that Robert and Stannis were not father and mother to him? Wasn't Stannis caring for him during the siege of Storm's End? Did Robert dump the boy at Storm's End or was he raised at court as Robert's ward, page, and squire? Why didn't Stannis care for his brother if Robert did not? Why did Robert make Renly Lord of Storm's End and when exactly happened that?

-Robert grew stranger of his brothers with his time at the Eyrie.

- Stannis cared for him during the siege, that's just common sense. Besides Stannis states that he very much loved his baby brother as a child.

- Renly was not in Court until he was old enough.

- Renly was Lord of Storm's End for 13 years per Cressen.

- Robert made them lords because he wanted to.

 

Quote

“Your brother has been the Lord of Storm’s End these past thirteen years. These lords are his sworn bannermen—” “His,” Stannis broke in, “when by rights they should be mine.

 

Quote

“What do the smallfolk say of Renly’s death?” “They grieve. Your brother was well loved.”“Fools love a fool,” grumbled Stannis, “but I grieve for him as well. For the boy he was, not the man he grew to be.” He was silent for a time, and then he said, “How did the commons take the news of Cersei’s incest?”

Quote

There are many different kinds of love. Robert was dutiful toward his brothers, and no doubt loved them in a way... but he didn't necessarily like them. His relations with Stannis were always prickly. Renly was the baby of the family, and spent little time in Robert's company until he was old enough to come to court. I suspect Robert was fond of the boy, but not especially close to him. [...] Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity

And we know he worshipped Robert.

 

Quote

And he [Edric Storm] worships Robert, as Renly did when he was young.

 

[Ran]

@frenin

Good quotes. There's plenty in there about Renly and how he saw things and why he did what he did. Mileage obviously varies.

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, I didn't argue against but the idea that Renly is somehow representative of something called 'medieval pragmatism'.

eh? I'm aware you are arguing with multiple people on this subject, so it is not my intention to dogpile, but you seem to be nitpicking here.

Renly, along with the rest of the small council barring Barristan and Arryn, was in favor of getting rid of a rival faction calling themselves the rightful rulers of Westeros.

He also may have done the same to Joffrey (he may also not, we don't get a definitive answer on what he would have done to Joffrey and/or the royal family).

Getting rid of rival claimants with strong ties to the throne was a regular occurrence for rulers in the medieval ages (and before, Augustus was notable for this as was the aftermath of Alexander's reign). Especially ones who made it clear they thought they were the the rightful rulers.

Renly is not being cruel here, he is being pragmatic. Other claimants to the throne, with support, will inevitably lead to war with many more people dying than the body count of an early assassination attempt.

You claimed nothing like this happened and I gave multiple examples. This was done, it was done by men who were not particularly noteworthy for their cruelty.

Renly's actions in supporting the removal of such a threat is not cruel.

[mormont]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Overall, the problem here is that Renly just isn't a very well developed character. We really don't know what he was about at his heart.

I couldn't disagree more. GRRM has a real talent for making relatively minor characters feel developed, and Renly's a good example. We see very little of Renly, most of that from people who don't know him well, but we get a tremendous sketch of an unconventional, complex man with clearly unresolved family and personal issues: a popular and handsome lord whose overconfidence - possibly overcompensating for the loss of his parents - leads him to try to buck the system and nearly succeed.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Getting rid of rival claimants with strong ties to the throne was a regular occurrence for rulers in the medieval ages (and before, Augustus was notable for this as was the aftermath of Alexander's reign). Especially ones who made it clear they thought they were the the rightful rulers.

Antiquity has essentially nothing to do with medieval monarchies. Medieval monarchies were for the most part very stable, and had a very clear line of succession, and the sanctity of royal blood was not doubted (there is a reason why up to modernity no English king who was deposed was actually executed just as Elizabeth I was not exactly keen to set the first precedent in that regard).

Hellenism and Imperial Rome didn't have a clear succession - and the Romans not even a proper monarchy. The princeps was no king, but a military dictator.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Renly is not being cruel here, he is being pragmatic. Other claimants to the throne, with support, will inevitably lead to war with many more people dying than the body count of an early assassination attempt.

That is the rationale he and the other dogs are using, and it certainly might also be the rationale behind the murder of the princes in the tower, or the murder of poor King Henry VI, but it wasn't dominant mindset in the actual middle ages.

And neither were things like eradicating entire families for the crimes of their parents or stuff like that. Rebellious lords were rarely, if at all, executed or murdered. Instead one imprisoned them and made peace with them after some time, etc.

The kind of thing we see in ASoIaF is warped perception of the middle ages, just as the Wars of the Roses was a period where civilization devolved to barbarism. That is just not representative of common Westerosi or medieval standards.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

You claimed nothing like this happened and I gave multiple examples. This was done, it was done by men who were not particularly noteworthy for their cruelty.

I said it was not as common as the readership seem to believe it is. The middle ages spread over a thousand years, give or take, and there is not a single Red Wedding-like incident happening there, nor something like Castamere. This kind of thuggery just doesn't happen. A lot of people imagine that collective punishment and murder should be common methods of politics when in fact they weren't really in Westeros and most definitely not in the real world.

You can see that with how Egg dealt with the Aenys Blackfyre thing or how nobody ever sent any hired knives after the Blackfyres, etc.

22 minutes ago, mormont said:

I couldn't disagree more. GRRM has a real talent for making relatively minor characters feel developed, and Renly's a good example. We see very little of Renly, most of that from people who don't know him well, but we get a tremendous sketch of an unconventional, complex man with clearly unresolved family and personal issues: a popular and handsome lord whose overconfidence - possibly overcompensating for the loss of his parents - leads him to try to buck the system and nearly succeed.

Can you tell us anything about Renly that's not third hand speculation from some maester or blacksmith?

I don't recall any such things.

Do we know his biography to the point we know, say, Jaime's (Casterly Rock > Crakehall > Kingswood > Harrenhal > Kingsguard)? Do we know whether Renly or Stannis were at Harrenhal, for that matter? Do we know anything of substance about the relationship of the Baratheon brothers that's not drawn from obscure SSM references?

I don't think so.

Renly is a completely empty character. We don't know where he spent his childhood and youth after the Rebellion (at court, at Storm's End, on Dragonstone?), who his guardian/foster father was (Robert, Stannis, some guy?), who he served as page and squire, who knighted him, what caused his relationship with Cersei and Stannis to sour, etc.

I mean, you are aware that we know basically tons of details about how the bromance of Tywin and Aerys soured, something that happened decades ago. Renly is barely two decades old by the time the series begins yet we have no idea who he was.

There is an illusion of depth there, something drawn from a couple of lines - the copper comparison, the rain god line, things like that. But that is the illusion of depth, not actual depth.

It is the fact that Renly is a very bleak, underdeveloped character that topics like that exist. People fill blanks with their own ideas. Some think he must have known about the twincest, others think he 'defended himself by means of usurpation', others imagine he loved Loras the way Loras loved him (without textual basis), and so on and so forth.

And Renly is just a symptom there - we also have no proper picture about Robert's reign and the other two Baratheon brothers.

[frenin]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Can you tell us anything about Renly that's not third hand speculation from some maester or blacksmith?

Cressen is like a father for the three Baratheon bros, he knew thosr three very well.

 

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Do we know his biography to the point we know, say, Jaime's (Casterly Rock > Crakehall > Kingswood > Harrenhal > Kingsguard)? Do we know whether Renly or Stannis were at Harrenhal, for that matter? Do we know anything of substance about the relationship of the Baratheon brothers that's not drawn from obscure SSM references?

I don't think so.

Renly and Stannis probably weren't at Harrenhall, and I'm using an absolutism because Martin has not gone in deep about that tourney, not only we're not told about the young stags, but Stannis was never a fan of touneys and Renly was too little, He was 7-8 there.

We know how Renly felt about his brothers, we know how Stannis felt about them. We know when Stannis was made a great lord... We know...

The obscure SSM does not tell us much really, or dod we need Martin to make us clear that while there was fondness Robert and Renly weren't particularly close?Do 

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly is a completely empty character. We don't know where he spent his childhood and youth after the Rebellion (at court, at Storm's End, on Dragonstone?), who his guardian/foster father was (Robert, Stannis, some guy?), who he served as page and squire, who knighted him, what caused his relationship with Cersei and Stannis to sour, etc.

Do we know who knighted Robert and Stannis, do we know who they served aa squires?? We know that Renly spent his time on Storm's End until he was old enough to go to court and Cressen is the default carer.

 

Do we know who knighted Jaeharys Targ??

 

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly never expected Stannis to crown himself or oppose him in the field. At least that's what he told Catelyn. He could have been lying there, but we don't know.

Whatd he tell Cat? I remember he was surprised that Stannis would attack him, but he already read his brothers crowning letter by the time he met Cat.

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

others imagine he loved Loras the way Loras loved him

Woah. Never thought about that. He probably didnt... 

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

Cressen is like a father for the three Baratheon bros, he knew thosr three very well.

Not at all to Robert. Probably not to Renly either or he woulda stayed SEs maester

9 minutes ago, frenin said:

Stannis was never a fan of touneys

Says who? Hes not Ned, who was at that tourney...

[frenin]

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Says who? Hes not Ned, who was at that tourney..

Stannis has never partaken on a tourney that we know of. Ever, no one has ever mentioned Stannis in a tourney in any way whatsoever.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not at all to Robert. Probably not to Renly either or he woulda stayed SEs maester

Cressen knee the Baratheon bros very well, perhaps, with Ned regarding Robert, he is the most on point source of them all. And we don't really know what the Baratheon bros think about Cressen, Robert and Renly never get to know the man died.

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Whatd he tell Cat? I remember he was surprised that Stannis would attack him, but he already read his brothers crowning letter by the time he met Cat.

He told her that Stannis would sort of be on his side, like the Dornishmen would. He is pretty surprised when Stannis turns against him.

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Woah. Never thought about that. He probably didnt... 

Most likely not. After all, there were things going on in Renly's chambers in the Red Keep which needed his servants to be tight-mouthed. Loras didn't live at the Red Keep, though.

But we don't know because the author never cared to elaborate.

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not at all to Robert. Probably not to Renly either or he woulda stayed SEs maester

Cressen was a foster father to Stannis, not to Renly. He followed Stannis to Dragonstone (although we have no idea when Stannis got Dragonstone) and abandoned Renly (unless Renly lived with a time with Stannis on Dragonstone).

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Says who? Hes not Ned, who was at that tourney...

Yeah, that's a basesless claim. However, we don't even know whether Stannis is a knight. He most likely is, but he is apparently not important a character so that it is mentioned. One expects him to have served as squire to a not exactly irrelevant figure, and to have been knighted, to have possibly even tried to compete with Robert in the lists. But if that is the case then we have no indication that it happened.