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If Rhaegar had won, would he have been loved or hated?


James Steller

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As we know, Robert’s Rebellion is a huge conflict. Four regions of Westeros rebelled against the throne, and even in the aftermath of Prince Rhaegar’s victory, that’s a lot of hard feelings and bitter words. Not to mention what Aerys would demand from the defeated houses. But let’s assume Rhaegar goes home immediately and arrests his father, becoming king in a hasty bid to fix the situation. 
I know it’s speculation, but you can just skip this if you don’t want to bother. Because the way I see it, Rhaegar would have to produce Lyanna, alive or dead (because she’d still die giving birth to Rhaegar’s bastard). But more importantly, he’d have to decide whether to have four Great Houses and who knows how many more attainted, or to forgive them to repay the debt of Aerys’ former madness. I’d like to think Rhaegar would spare Stannis, Benjen, Edmure, and whoever Jon’s heir would be (I’m assuming the rebel leaders all die fighting at the Trident, by the way), but the thing is, I have a very negative impression of Rhaegar as being a fanatic for his own twisted ideas. So maybe he’d decide the prophecy needed to be fulfilled, and he goes mad in a different way. 

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I don't really get your point. Rhaegar becomes King... And then what happens?? The rebels are still around. Or this is made before the Starks are brutally killed?? In that case, i doubt there would be any war, or not of the scale of the Robellion.

15 minutes ago, James Steller said:

But more importantly, he’d have to decide whether to have four Great Houses and who knows how many more attainted, or to forgive them to repay the debt of Aerys’ former madness. I’d like to think Rhaegar would spare Stannis, Benjen, Edmure, and whoever Jon’s heir would be (I’m assuming the rebel leaders all die fighting at the Trident, by the way),

So Rhaegar defeats the rebels?? Then, he pretty much can do whatever he wants with the rebels.

There would be hard feelings sure, since the rebel leaders were well loved but eh, if Daemon Blackfyre could be overcome, i'm pretty sure Ned, Robert and Jon will be too.

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Rhaegar would have too many angry people.  More people would have problems with Rhaegar compared to Aerys.  Aerys was not the one who supposedly abducted Lyanna.  Nobody can clear Rhaegar's name because she died.  All of the remaining KGs would support Aerys.  The Small Council would support Aerys.  Rhaegar has no authority to arrest King Aerys Targaryen.  He will have to wait until Aerys passes before he can be king and that is assuming Aerys had not already chosen Prince Viserys.  Rhaegar's victory at the trident is a huge victory for King Aerys.  Aerys gets to take the credit.

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44 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Rhaegar would have too many angry people.  More people would have problems with Rhaegar compared to Aerys.  Aerys was not the one who supposedly abducted Lyanna.  Nobody can clear Rhaegar's name because she died.  All of the remaining KGs would support Aerys.  The Small Council would support Aerys.  Rhaegar has no authority to arrest King Aerys Targaryen.  He will have to wait until Aerys passes before he can be king and that is assuming Aerys had not already chosen Prince Viserys.  Rhaegar's victory at the trident is a huge victory for King Aerys.  Aerys gets to take the credit.

Rhaegar promised that when he returned from the Trident, things would happen which should have happened ages ago. I’m convinced that he would have commanded the Kingsguard to save the king from himself as he was clearly mad. We know that he could rely on Arthur Dayne, Hightower, and Oswell Whent. They abandoned their king through the whole war to help the prince. Barristan might resist out of principle, but since they’re not killing the king, just abdicating him, he wouldn’t kill Rhaegar for that. The rest would follow suit.

 

My point is: what then? The North still has a Stark, Stannis is shut up inside Storm’s End, a lot of nobles have died, and their relatives will need to be dealt with. Has anyone actually considered the awkwardness with which Rhaegar could ever assume the kingship after what he did?

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To be honest, it doesn't matter who won that war, one half of Westeros was going to hate the other half. I bet the Stormlanders would try and push the message that Rhaegar is a kinslayer for killing Robert Baratheon, even as singers in King's Landing and the Reach compose song after song detailing the impossible love story between Rhaegar and Lyanna. They'd have a field day with the tragic irony of Rhaegar triumphing in battle against Robert, only to find out that Lyanna died in agony delivering their love child into the world. Hell of a conclusion to a Targaryan-won war. 

Aside from all that, Rhaegar strikes me as a Jon Snow type. He'll wallow in guilt over all the lives lost during Robert's Rebellion, as well as the death of Lyanna so far away from home. My guess is that he'd have Stannis sent to the Night's Watch and turned Renly into a hostage so he grows up a loyal servant of House Targaryen. Benjen will become Lord of Winterfell, and I'm betting that House Targaryen would order the Starks to tear down Moat Cailin and forbid them from fortifying the Neck ever again.

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3 hours ago, James Steller said:

My point is: what then? The North still has a Stark, Stannis is shut up inside Storm’s End, a lot of nobles have died, and their relatives will need to be dealt with. Has anyone actually considered the awkwardness with which Rhaegar could ever assume the kingship after what he did?

Stannis won't be allowed to live. He won't bend the knee and he'll request execution or go north to the Wall. House Baratheon gets removed from power, unless Renly is allowed to live as Floki said, but I think Rhaegar would be advised to remove them once and for all.

The wild card is Tywin Lannister. What does he do when Rhaegar wins the war without House Lannister's help? He's going to be in a lot of trouble: the rebels will resent Tywin for not helping them, and the royalists will mock them for pulling a Late Lord Frey. Tywin was lucky that the rebels lived, because what was he going to do to show his loyalty if the Trident was a victory for Rhaegar? He can't go attack any rebel region before Rhaegar's army gets there first, they wouldn't have any chance at an initiative (unlike with King's Landing where they beat Eddard Stark to the captial and sacked it for them).

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After Rhaegar's victory, he would have "retired" his father Aerys II and gone on the traditional apology tour. First, the Starks. Lyanna, presumably alive and about to give birth, would profess her love for Rhaegar and apologize for making Robert Baratheon go crazy. (But everyone knew what a drunken horndog old Bob was - what sane woman wouldn't have left him at the altar, right?) The other "kingdoms" which Aerys had harmed would get similar treatment. Rhaegar would make it clear that a new day had dawned and his first acts would be to try to help those his father had harmed, undo the damage caused by Aerys and by Robert Baratheon's war.

After all, what were the traitor lords rebelling against, if not Aerys' maddened and tyranical rule? That's all gone. And we can presume Robert Baratheon was dead, since he'd never surrender. As ringleader of the traitors, he could easily be painted as the villain he was: starting a continent-wide, brutal war because his girlfriend eloped with another man? That's not "romantic"; that's deranged.

Tywin Lannister would be a continuing problem. Remember, he didn't lift a finger until Robert's victory was assured, and he'd do the same with Rhaegar. The new king would need to keep a close eye on him and move to rein in Lannister influence at court and power in general. Kingsguard Jaime would be sent to the Wall.

King Rhaegar would have to make amends with Elia, let her know that he had wanted to protect her because further children would kill her. And we can assume Lyanna would die shortly, also. For popular consumption, Rhaegar would remind the populace that Targaryens have traditionally had multiple wives; it's a historical fact, and has never been a big deal. Smoothing over relations with Dorne would be important, but since Gregor Clegane hadn't killed Elia's children and raped her to death, would not have been difficult.

Rhaegar would welcome his younger sibs back to Westeros, maybe make Viserys the (once he came of age) Lord of Dragonstone. Install baby Daenerys in the Red Keep in the honor she deserved.

Depending on whether Stannis Baratheon would bend the knee and swear allegiance to Rhaegar, he could be made the rightful Lord of Storms End. Or sent to the Wall, if not. Ditto Ned Stark and Jon Arryn. Renly was just a kid; he might do well within the Red Keep as a hostage/page.

All would be relatively peaceful, and there would never be dragons in the world again.

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59 minutes ago, zandru said:

After all, what were the traitor lords rebelling against, if not Aerys' maddened and tyranical rule? That's all gone. And we can presume Robert Baratheon was dead, since he'd never surrender. As ringleader of the traitors, he could easily be painted as the villain he was: starting a continent-wide, brutal war because his girlfriend eloped with another man? That's not "romantic"; that's deranged.

:rofl:

 

I never understood where this merciful Rhaegar comes from, so i'm going to think that's why people want to see him.

Btw, he better kill Jon Arryn and Ned, they are not going to let the Robert thing go. Robert was Jon Arryn's surrogate son and him and Ned were closer than brothers, it's pretty delusional if people think that a good pat in the back and an apology would solve the issue with them. And having powerful lords who want you dead is a no no. And it's not like Benjen is going to look with kind eyes to the responsible of his family's destruction.

 

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King Rhaegar would have to make amends with Elia, let her know that he had wanted to protect her because further children would kill her. 

Because there weren't other women in Westeros but Lyanna Stark... Seriously one of the lamest excuses.

 

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Rhaegar would remind the populace that Targaryens have traditionally had multiple wives; it's a historical fact, and has never been a big deal. 

What?? Maegor's wars were specifically because polygamy and no other Targ were poligamist after him.

 

 

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 Smoothing over relations with Dorne would be important, but since Gregor Clegane hadn't killed Elia's children and raped her to death, would not have been difficult.

At this point, is there something difficult for him??

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8 minutes ago, frenin said:

Btw, he better kill Jon Arryn and Ned, they are not going to let the Robert thing go.

I think maybe not. After all, Eddard Stark went into the war less because his old bud Bobbie started it than to avenge his father and brother, who died at the hands of Aerys, not Rhaegar. Ned also no doubt had his suspicions about Lyanna's alleged "abduction" and "rapes". Moreover, women die in childbirth all the time in Westeros. Ask the gods why.

I can't say anything about Jon Arryn. The information about him as presented so far in the books doesn't really say enough about the other factors leading to "Robert's War," at least as far as I've picked up so far. But there is a lot that a King can do to smooth over old wounds, in addition to making amends and repairing the damage to the kingdom. Arryn was already Lord of the Vale and Steward of the East. Maybe put him in as Hand, like Robert did, or Master of Coin? This would also follow the old rule of "keep your friends close and your (potential) enemies closer."

Anybody who remains bitter and dangerous can go to the Wall. It would have thus been a lot better stocked with knights than it is at the current state in the books. Taking the black is not only more useful than getting beheaded; it's much less barbarous, and folks would have been tired of seeing Aerys' many brutal executions.

Or maybe the executions drew great ratings. After all, they didn't have tv nor youtube in those days.

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5 minutes ago, zandru said:

I think maybe not. After all, Eddard Stark went into the war less because his old bud Bobbie started it than to avenge his father and brother, who died at the hands of Aerys, not Rhaegar. Ned also no doubt had his suspicions about Lyanna's alleged "abduction" and "rapes". Moreover, women die in childbirth all the time in Westeros. Ask the gods why.

Robert did not start any war so this is a moot point.

Ned was radical enough about the Targs that he didn't want to see anyone else on a Throne. And Robert and Ned were closer than brothers, everyone says that, including Robert and Ned, are you telling that when you brother is murdered and his name bersmiched, you just shrug?? What Lyanna felt,  she was dying anyway, is pretty much irrelevant. It can prop Ned to protect Jon but certainly cannot make Ned severe ties with Robert. As it didn't happen in canon.

And his father and brother died at Aerys hands because Rhaegar.

 

13 minutes ago, zandru said:

I can't say anything about Jon Arryn. The information about him as presented so far in the books doesn't really say enough about the other factors leading to "Robert's War," at least as far as I've picked up so far. But there is a lot that a King can do to smooth over old wounds, in addition to making amends and repairing the damage to the kingdom. Arryn was already Lord of the Vale and Steward of the East. Maybe put him in as Hand, like Robert did, or Master of Coin? This would also follow the old rule of "keep your friends close and your (potential) enemies closer

Robert's war?? What is this the show??

Jon Arryn was the one who intiated the revolt because he refused to kill Ned and Robert.

Jon Arryn is again described as having a father like relationship with those two, and Robert and Ned still considered him a father figure 15 years later.

 

 

18 minutes ago, zandru said:

Anybody who remains bitter and dangerous can go to the Wall. It would have thus been a lot better stocked with knights than it is at the current state in the books. Taking the black is not only more useful than getting beheaded; it's much less barbarous, and folks would have been tired of seeing Aerys' many brutal executions.

Well, thank god. Here i was thinking Rhaegar only had to smile them and case closed.

 

Pd: I answered the polygamy issue above.

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Ultimately, after the war, there's reconciliation. Rhaegar might have had a lot do to heal the fractures caused during the war. The thing is, Robert seems to be the only person in story so far who has a visceral hatred of him. Stannis doesn't mention Rhaegar at all, but when Davos takes him to task about choosing sides in the rebellion, Stannis tells him that it was a difficult choice, but in the end he chose his brother over his king.

If Rhaegar had won on the Trident, then Tywin would have marched to secure King's Landing instead of sacking it. 

I'm assuming a council would have been called and included the rebel lords. At that point, what's left to do? I don't think lopping heads off is a great solution when we know that even Rhaegar was looking to make changes.

Even Joffrey (and by that I mean Tywin) didn't chop off the heads of the lords who backed Stannis at the Blackwater so long as they swore fealty to Joffrey. 

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The North would absolutely hate him. He’s a rapist Royal that kidnapped the daughter of their lord, led to death of said lord and his son in a gruesome fashion, killed or led to the death of their next lord, Eddard and possibly expelled Benjen to the wall and placed someone else in charge of the north. Lyanna is probably dead so she can’t clear his name, even if alive will anyone believe it, what’s she going to say with her family dead. 
 

Stormlands will hate his for exterminating a well loved house that ruled for centuries and inherited their claims from Durandons. Robert was wronged and killed for it, plenty of hate. Stannis wouldn’t yield and would have to be killed, resentment for that. Renly would probably be fostered, sent to the wall or killed. Someone else would rule the Stormlands. 
 

Riverlands will heavily dislike Rhaegar. He started a war that saw them burned and ruined, plenty of their lords would be sent to the wall or to the death. Vale same. Rhaegar in killing Lord Aryn would be exterminating the main Aryn line, plenty of hate to go around for that. 
 

Dorne would be seething. They may have fought for the loyalist but only due to being forced with Elia being held hostage by mad king. Rhaegar humiliated her, turned her children into bastards, discarded her like a used rag for some northern lass. Hate there aplenty. 
 

Tywin has his full strength and power. Rhaegar can’t do a single thing to retaliate for not coming to royal aid. He’d be the best off of all lords yet would resent Targaryens for discarding Cersei. 
 

Reach would be the only kingdom not hating him or plotting against him. 

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1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

The North would absolutely hate him. He’s a rapist Royal that kidnapped the daughter of their lord, led to death of said lord and his son in a gruesome fashion, killed or led to the death of their next lord, Eddard and possibly expelled Benjen to the wall and placed someone else in charge of the north. Lyanna is probably dead so she can’t clear his name, even if alive will anyone believe it, what’s she going to say with her family dead. 
 

Stormlands will hate his for exterminating a well loved house that ruled for centuries and inherited their claims from Durandons. Robert was wronged and killed for it, plenty of hate. Stannis wouldn’t yield and would have to be killed, resentment for that. Renly would probably be fostered, sent to the wall or killed. Someone else would rule the Stormlands. 
 

Riverlands will heavily dislike Rhaegar. He started a war that saw them burned and ruined, plenty of their lords would be sent to the wall or to the death. Vale same. Rhaegar in killing Lord Aryn would be exterminating the main Aryn line, plenty of hate to go around for that. 
 

Dorne would be seething. They may have fought for the loyalist but only due to being forced with Elia being held hostage by mad king. Rhaegar humiliated her, turned her children into bastards, discarded her like a used rag for some northern lass. Hate there aplenty. 
 

Tywin has his full strength and power. Rhaegar can’t do a single thing to retaliate for not coming to royal aid. He’d be the best off of all lords yet would resent Targaryens for discarding Cersei. 
 

Reach would be the only kingdom not hating him or plotting against him. 

This feels pretty on point for the most part. So it's even worse than I predicted. The Reach and the Crownlands would be Rhaegar's only loyal bases. Admittedly, that's nothing to sneeze at since the Targaryens would still have their fleet and the Reach are the breadbasket of the Seven Kingdoms with the biggest army, but still. Four regions licking their wounds harbouring bad thoughts, another one mistrusted, and the Ironborn being wild cards as usual. I'm sure Quellon Greyjoy and his sons would have gone North and recaptured Bear Isle or something to show their own loyalty. 

To be honest, though would Dorne be that mad? We have no indication that Rhaegar disowned his older kids, nor that he would have. He viewed them as being part of the three-headed dragon in the prophecy, so he'd be frantically trying to make things work between all the factions. I'm assuming Lyanna would still die in childbirth, so she'd be out of the picture, and the baby we know as "Jon" would grow up as Rhaegar's legitimized child. And given the Dornish tolerance of bastards, why would they consider Rhaegar had insulted Elia by having another child? Oberyn would be a pretty big hypocrite if he had that kind of attitude.

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19 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

This feels pretty on point for the most part. So it's even worse than I predicted. The Reach and the Crownlands would be Rhaegar's only loyal bases. Admittedly, that's nothing to sneeze at since the Targaryens would still have their fleet and the Reach are the breadbasket of the Seven Kingdoms with the biggest army, but still. Four regions licking their wounds harbouring bad thoughts, another one mistrusted, and the Ironborn being wild cards as usual. I'm sure Quellon Greyjoy and his sons would have gone North and recaptured Bear Isle or something to show their own loyalty. 

To be honest, though would Dorne be that mad? We have no indication that Rhaegar disowned his older kids, nor that he would have. He viewed them as being part of the three-headed dragon in the prophecy, so he'd be frantically trying to make things work between all the factions. I'm assuming Lyanna would still die in childbirth, so she'd be out of the picture, and the baby we know as "Jon" would grow up as Rhaegar's legitimized child. And given the Dornish tolerance of bastards, why would they consider Rhaegar had insulted Elia by having another child? Oberyn would be a pretty big hypocrite if he had that kind of attitude.

By marrying Lyana, which show implies and is probably going to be case in the books unless he raped her, he has made his children into bastards. His wife was alive and he never got a divorce from her. Not to mention the more likely case that even if he got married the marriage is invalid and any children of Lyana and him are bastards anyway. Secondly he plunged kingdom into total war due to some rambling prophecy about three headed dragon, he should be put into an insane asylum instead of getting an "oh yeah, right, sorry, we aren't upset then". Elia was mistreated by Rheagar, tortured and held hostage by his father and Dornishmen died in thousands because Rheagar wanted to dip his whick into something colder. That's a far cry from simple whoring or cheating. He went out of feudal bounds, and he is not a Dornishman either. Oberyn rules nothing and is also never married. 

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1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

To be honest, though would Dorne be that mad? We have no indication that Rhaegar disowned his older kids, nor that he would have. He viewed them as being part of the three-headed dragon in the prophecy, so he'd be frantically trying to make things work between all the factions. I'm assuming Lyanna would still die in childbirth, so she'd be out of the picture, and the baby we know as "Jon" would grow up as Rhaegar's legitimized child. And given the Dornish tolerance of bastards, why would they consider Rhaegar had insulted Elia by having another child? Oberyn would be a pretty big hypocrite if he had that kind of attitude.

They would and they were.

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Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution. 

Even when there would be a lot of resentment in the first decade or so, there is really nothing that time and peace cannot heal.

Rhaegar would have a really hard time trying to winning over the kingdoms the three rebel leaders controlled and i don't really ser how Benjen and him would ever be in cool terms. But other than that meh. Having a hard time≠ Impossible. Aegon 3 did it, Daeron 2 did it (twice), Jaeharys 2 did it, Robert and Jon Arryn mostly did it and both Tywin and Kevan were on their way to do it. Rhaegar could have achieved it too,  some common sense and ability to forgive as well as charisma.

Time heals and all that.

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41 minutes ago, Hrulj said:

By marrying Lyana, which show implies and is probably going to be case in the books unless he raped her, he has made his children into bastards. His wife was alive and he never got a divorce from her. Not to mention the more likely case that even if he got married the marriage is invalid and any children of Lyana and him are bastards anyway. Secondly he plunged kingdom into total war due to some rambling prophecy about three headed dragon, he should be put into an insane asylum instead of getting an "oh yeah, right, sorry, we aren't upset then". Elia was mistreated by Rheagar, tortured and held hostage by his father and Dornishmen died in thousands because Rheagar wanted to dip his whick into something colder. That's a far cry from simple whoring or cheating. He went out of feudal bounds, and he is not a Dornishman either. Oberyn rules nothing and is also never married. 

You forget that a marriage isn’t needed to legitimize a bastard. All you need is a king’s approval. Look at Aegon IV. His last act as king was a final spit in the eye of his son and his subjects by legitimizing all his bastards. Or are we to assume that he went and married all their mothers first? The idea that Rhaegar married Lyanna is not something I consider canon until GRRM writes it down and publishes it. He could easily legitimize Jon and bring him to court without divorcing Elia and disowning his kids. And if the Dornish are as progressive as we’ve been told, they won’t pull a House Frey on Rhaegar for that. Admittedly, they wouldn’t be happy about all the bloodshed, but I really wanted to shut down this stupid notion that Rhaegar abandoned all his duties just for love to have a quaint little elopement. Just one of many stupid notions that exist because of incompetence. He might have desired Lyanna, but he was primarily concerned with, as you say, a rambling prophecy which will probably wind up being true and will justify everything Rhaegar did.

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Just now, James Steller said:

You forget that a marriage isn’t needed to legitimize a bastard. All you need is a king’s approval. Look at Aegon IV. His last act as king was a final spit in the eye of his son and his subjects by legitimizing all his bastards. Or are we to assume that he went and married all their mothers first? The idea that Rhaegar married Lyanna is not something I consider canon until GRRM writes it down and publishes it. He could easily legitimize Jon and bring him to court without divorcing Elia and disowning his kids. And if the Dornish are as progressive as we’ve been told, they won’t pull a House Frey on Rhaegar for that. Admittedly, they wouldn’t be happy about all the bloodshed, but I really wanted to shut down this stupid notion that Rhaegar abandoned all his duties just for love. He might have desired Lyanna, but he was primarily concerned with, as you say, a rambling prophecy which will probably wind up being true and will justify everything Rhaegar did.

I know, which is why I said the show heavily implies will be the case in the book. Which would be idiotic. Legitimizing bastards is a big no-no as Aegon has shown. 

 

He has either kidnapped and raped, or seduced and went away with a young teenage girl of the north who was already engaged to a lord Paramount, without her family knowing, into the mountains of Dorne, abandoning his wife and children to his mad father so they can have continuous impregnating sex. He dragged half the Kingsguard with him to guard her. He didn't rush to court when Starks were burned alive to clear things up. If that was even possible. He engaged in a war against half the kingdoms, never trying to explain anything. Even though there's nothing to explain, both him and Lyana are raving mad, but still. Dorne was forced to fight for the crown due to Elia being held hostage. That best shows where their emotions stand. 

 

Dornish may be progressive but not progressive enough to swallow all of that

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The bad feelings can be seventually smoothed over for most of the survivors.  Rhaegar will be a hated man because of what the people believe but he may be able to turn that around.  Aerys will remain on the throne.  He has the loyalty of the nobles outside of the rebels and the protection of his great Kingsguards.  Rhaegar will have time to tell his side of the story.  And if that story proves him innocent of kidnapping. 

The rebels got defeated and will have their hairy nuts in a vise.  Were I Aerys, the following will die: Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, Ned Stark, and Hoster Tully.  I will give the Stormlands to Ser Aliser Thorne.  Restore the Goodbrooks and completely wipe out the Tully bloodline.  House Goodbrook inherits the Riverlands.  Renly will become a ward of the Greyjoys and sent to the Wall when he comes of age.  Benjen becomes a ward of the Tyrells and sent to the Wall when he comes of age. 

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2 minutes ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

House Goodbrook inherits the Riverlands.

Really?? Not Darry or Mootons??

 

3 minutes ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

Renly will become a ward of the Greyjoys and sent to the Wall when he comes of age.  Benjen becomes a ward of the Tyrells and sent to the Wall when he comes of age. 

Why bother then?? Just send them to the wall.

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