Why Daenerys will never win the Game of Thrones

[frenin]

@Rose of Red Lakee

I did not say that there would be no cost hovewer but then again, so be it. Let's judge Dany's actions un Westeros when they happen.

 

[SeanF]

The thing is, though, the world was a more brutal place without nukes or other Weapons of Mass Destruction, not a safer place.

When killing does not have to mean the death of the entire world, people will be more willing to indulge in it.  The Interahamwe slaughtered 700,000 people with machetes.  The An Lushan revolt and the wars of Genghis Khan killed tens of millions, up close and personal. The Tai Ping revolt involved no WMD.  It is very easy to persuade people that killing others in an intimate fashion is the right thing to do.

[Rose of Red Lake]

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

@Rose of Red Lakee

I did not say that there would be no cost hovewer but then again, so be it. Let's judge Dany's actions un Westeros when they happen.

Fair enough. But I dont think we'll ever see Dany's actions in Westeros because I dont think we'll see that in print. We'll be left reading author interviews. 

I do think its important to ask what the function of the Essos plot is, because the story is about Westeros not Essos. 

[BlackLightning]

On 5/16/2020 at 1:42 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Just like the Valyrians showed the Ghiscari what they could do, and their leaders remembered.

Dany has lost her chance at being Jaehaerys. 

 

On 5/16/2020 at 3:12 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Fair enough. But I dont think we'll ever see Dany's actions in Westeros because I dont think we'll see that in print. We'll be left reading author interviews. 

I do think its important to ask what the function of the Essos plot is, because the story is about Westeros not Essos. 

I used to feel the same way. Now? Meh, I'm not sure anymore.

The amount of time that GRRM has spent on Essos is telling. Not only is there Dany but there's Arya, Tyrion, Melisandre, Victarion and Quentyn as well. And Arya's story has had absolutely nothing to do with Dany despite the fact that they are on the same continent. And, for what it's worth, it is the Melisandre POV (not Arya's and not Dany's) which seems to be truly bridging the gap between Essos and Westeros, between fire and ice.

I think Essos is much more important to the plot than a lot of us are willing to admit. If Essos was just boot camp (or alternatively, the kiddie pool) for Dany, then why is Dany still there? Why would GRRM keep her there? She has the Unsullied which being that they are a standing army with no fluctuating loyalties is a huge game-changer in Westeros. She has money and ships. She has bloodriders which are a much more effective version of a Kingsguard. She has three dragons. She could've spent most of book 5 in the Dothraki Sea and got herself at least one khalasar (if not all of them). Why not put her on a fast track? Especially when she has had multiple opportunities to sail for Westeros and reclaim her birthright?

Which then leads to me to another point. I don't think Dany wants to even play the game of thrones. She wants to rule because she wants to leave the world a better place than how she found it. But Dany is not Varys or Tyrion or Cersei or Littlefinger (notice how all the big game-players of the series are villains). She's not even in the same vein as Viserys, Catelyn, Sansa or Jon. Dany doesn't want to play the game of thrones at all, her behavior in Essos (not just Meereen) confirms it. Before things went sideways, Dany was really content with the city of Meereen. Hell, Dany was -- more or less -- content with Drogo's tent. While I'm at it, Dany seems to have very, very fond memories of the alleyways of Tyrosh.

Of course, Dany will never win the game of thrones. She doesn't want to play.

That said, she still has to fight. She must fight and, as of her last chapter in Dance, she is more than willing to fight. Even if she didn't have dragons, even if she was just a simple woman with a simple name in a simple house with a red door, people like Euron, Ramsay, Qyburn  aren't just going to leave her alone. The day would come when she still would have to fight.

That's what George meant by that there are some wars worth fighting. And that's why I give aggressively anti-war people the stink eye.

For all we know the whole reason she ends up going to Westeros could be a matter of simply defending the people of Essos. I'm sure she would rather be proactive and fight in Westeros and still have the option of falling back on Essos.

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

 

I used to feel the same way. Now? Meh, I'm not sure anymore.

The amount of time that GRRM has spent on Essos is telling. Not only is there Dany but there's Arya, Tyrion, Melisandre, Victarion and Quentyn as well. And Arya's story has had absolutely nothing to do with Dany despite the fact that they are on the same continent. And, for what it's worth, it is the Melisandre POV (not Arya's and not Dany's) which seems to be truly bridging the gap between Essos and Westeros, between fire and ice.

I think Essos is much more important to the plot than a lot of us are willing to admit. If Essos was just boot camp (or alternatively, the kiddie pool) for Dany, then why is Dany still there? Why would GRRM keep her there? She has the Unsullied which being that they are a standing army with no fluctuating loyalties is a huge game-changer in Westeros. She has money and ships. She has bloodriders which are a much more effective version of a Kingsguard. She has three dragons. She could've spent most of book 5 in the Dothraki Sea and got herself at least one khalasar (if not all of them). Why not put her on a fast track? Especially when she has had multiple opportunities to sail for Westeros and reclaim her birthright?

Which then leads to me to another point. I don't think Dany wants to even play the game of thrones. She wants to rule because she wants to leave the world a better place than how she found it. But Dany is not Varys or Tyrion or Cersei or Littlefinger (notice how all the big game-players of the series are villains). She's not even in the same vein as Viserys, Catelyn, Sansa or Jon. Dany doesn't want to play the game of thrones at all, her behavior in Essos (not just Meereen) confirms it. Before things went sideways, Dany was really content with the city of Meereen. Hell, Dany was -- more or less -- content with Drogo's tent. While I'm at it, Dany seems to have very, very fond memories of the alleyways of Tyrosh.

Of course, Dany will never win the game of thrones. She doesn't want to play.

That said, she still has to fight. She must fight and, as of her last chapter in Dance, she is more than willing to fight. Even if she didn't have dragons, even if she was just a simple woman with a simple name in a simple house with a red door, people like Euron, Ramsay, Qyburn  aren't just going to leave her alone. The day would come when she still would have to fight.

That's what George meant by that there are some wars worth fighting. And that's why I give aggressively anti-war people the stink eye.

For all we know the whole reason she ends up going to Westeros could be a matter of simply defending the people of Essos. I'm sure she would rather be proactive and fight in Westeros and still have the option of falling back on Essos.

I agree.  

Although, Martin would probably argue that it is better to be ruled by a pragmatic villain, than by an unsuccessful idealist.

By way of comparison, I'm in the process of re-reading Robin Robb's Liveships Trilogy (Hobb and Martin borrow from each other quite a lot).  Slavery is a very big theme in Hobb's trilogy, and it's interesting to compare Captain Kennit, who leads the anti-slavery campaign, with Daenerys.  Hobb, like Martin, makes no bones that slavery and its practitioners are disgusting.  But, Kennit is a villain, albeit a sympathetic villain.  He has no particular beef with slavery, but, almost by accident, realises that being a liberator will bring him the power he seeks.  He's a pirate, and many of his sailors are runaway slaves, who welcome the chance to fight in a good cause.  And, the freed slaves are enormously grateful to him. And, he's damn good at war.  Once, he's decided to fight the slavers,  he gives no quarter.  Unlike Daenerys, he realises that no compromise with them is possible.  

Daenerys, by contrast, is an idealist who opts for half-measures against her enemies, which end up costing thousands of her supporters' lives.

 

 

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I agree.  

Although, Martin would probably argue that it is better to be ruled by a pragmatic villain, than by an unsuccessful idealist.

By way of comparison, I'm in the process of re-reading Robin Robb's Liveships Trilogy (Hobb and Martin borrow from each other quite a lot).  Slavery is a very big theme in Hobb's trilogy, and it's interesting to compare Captain Kennit, who leads the anti-slavery campaign, with Daenerys.  Hobb, like Martin, makes no bones that slavery and its practitioners are disgusting.  But, Kennit is a villain, albeit a sympathetic villain.  He has no particular beef with slavery, but, almost by accident, realises that being a liberator will bring him the power he seeks.  He's a pirate, and many of his sailors are runaway slaves, who welcome the chance to fight in a good cause.  And, the freed slaves are enormously grateful to him. And, he's damn good at war.  Once, he's decided to fight the slavers,  he gives no quarter.  Unlike Daenerys, he realises that no compromise with them is possible.  

Daenerys, by contrast, is an idealist who opts for half-measures against her enemies, which end up costing thousands of her supporters' lives.

Pragmatic villain is a oxymoron. Because it is actually much more pragmatic to be a hero or align yourself with heroes (or at the very least, stay out of their way) than to be a villain. In both real-life and in Martin's story.

Martin, instead, would argue that it is better to be ruled by a successful idealist than by a pragmatic villain or by an unsuccessful idealist. That explains why all the unsuccessful idealists of ASOIAF suffer horribly (i.e. Ned, Robb, etc.) and all the pragmatic villains end up sliding down the slippery slope of "pragmatic villainy" into the abyss (i.e. Tywin, Lysa, etc.).

It's self-evident that that "the successful, soft-power wielding idealist who somehow manages to be detached" as the winner is what Martin is getting at. It explains why Sansa is so well-preserved and it explains why it is all but confirmed that Bran will be the endgame king. It also explains why Bran is so young and why he slated to become the tree-hugging version of Professor X. Any given successful idealist is pragmatic but, in order to be a successful idealist, you need a lot of momentum, a whole lot of power and opportunity...and being very young and/or handicapped helps because they are less likely to be corruptible and more likely to be empathetic. Also a good set of advisors who have a bit of an edge over the successful idealist is necessary otherwise successful idealist loses their innocent idealism--at best. That also explains why Bran is so young and why his advisors/inner circle are likely to be much older and more experienced.

It also is worth pointing out that Bran wants to be special and fabulous and fabulously special at that. Although both Daenerys and Bran are sweethearts and have the purest souls in the entire series, Daenerys is actually the opposite: she doesn't want to be special and prefers a much simpler life. That's part of the reason why Daenerys cried herself to sleep so much in Meereen and why she was so quick to fly away on Drogon. She was sick of their shit.

I can appreciate the analogy between Captain Kennit and Daenerys but, as I hinted at, there are several huge differences between them. One of the bigger ones being that Daenerys wasn't born with a silver spoon in her mouth. She knows what it's like to be a slave--and if she didn't before, she will very soon.

Captain Kennit sounds an awful lot like Euron too. Holy cow, it just hit me.

[Morte]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Of course, Dany will never win the game of thrones. She doesn't want to play.

I was wondering whether the abomination was right insofar as Dany will leave after the fight against the Other, disgusted and disturbed like Etzel at the end of the Nibelungenlied - and goes back to Essos and her people (maybe keeping Dragonstone as the outpost it originally was).

[BlackLightning]

@Rose of Red Lake I meant to say this in my last post but....

Why would Daenerys want to be Jaehaerys? It is true that Jaehaerys had a long peaceful reign and that is why he is fondly remembered in Westeros. But his family life was a wreck and he was not a nice person. Not only did he consistently threaten his subjects (and those across the Narrow Sea) with dragonfire but the Dance of the Dragons was actually his fault. That nightmare began with him. Whether or not he left Westeros a better place than how he found it is a debate for another thread. But I'd say no, he didn't. It was more of the same.

Speaking of fondly remembered, Aegon the Conqueror is also fondly remembered in Westeros. Aegon was, well....a conqueror and a strong, able ruler. Aegon the Unlikely is also fondly remembered in Westeros as he was the last king who cared about the welfare of the smallfolk.

Daenerys compares herself more to Aegon I than any other Targaryen king in the entire series. Which is a bit ironic and ham-fisted of her because Dany should be comparing herself to Aegon I and Aegon V both.

Daenerys did miss her chance of becoming "similar" to Jaehaerys but it's not in the way you think.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I agree.  

Although, Martin would probably argue that it is better to be ruled by a pragmatic villain, than by an unsuccessful idealist.

By way of comparison, I'm in the process of re-reading Robin Robb's Liveships Trilogy (Hobb and Martin borrow from each other quite a lot).  Slavery is a very big theme in Hobb's trilogy, and it's interesting to compare Captain Kennit, who leads the anti-slavery campaign, with Daenerys.  Hobb, like Martin, makes no bones that slavery and its practitioners are disgusting.  But, Kennit is a villain, albeit a sympathetic villain.  He has no particular beef with slavery, but, almost by accident, realises that being a liberator will bring him the power he seeks.  He's a pirate, and many of his sailors are runaway slaves, who welcome the chance to fight in a good cause.  And, the freed slaves are enormously grateful to him. And, he's damn good at war.  Once, he's decided to fight the slavers,  he gives no quarter.  Unlike Daenerys, he realises that no compromise with them is possible.  

Daenerys, by contrast, is an idealist who opts for half-measures against her enemies, which end up costing thousands of her supporters' lives.

I also think it's worth stating that if and when Daenerys does bestir herself to play the game, she doesn't play it by "the rules."

Hence Dany waking dragons from stone, choosing to stay in Meereen, refusing to retire in Vaes Dothrak, turning Quentyn down, marrying Hizdahr, leaving Quaithe on read, personally burying the bodies of the sick Astapori, flying off on Drogon, etc.

The only song Daenerys dances to is her own She does what she wills and she wills what she does. In a series where people resign themselves to being pawns or players in an unending game that enslaves both pawn and player, it is refreshing. Maddening but refreshing....and I am here for it!!! LOL

Seriously though. She is completely unpredictable and people who play the game by "the rules" (i.e. Littlefinger, Tyrion) are likely to see her as a bad sport...at best. Speaking of which, that is probably how she will be vilified in Westeros. The players of the game won't be able to make heads or tails of what she is doing and what she wants. They will either be:

• confused to the point of outrage
• get horribly envious of her freedom
• make her out to be some sort of psycho
• or any combination of the above

All of which puts a target on her back. But Dany would have a target on her back regardless so I'm like "Dany, forget the haters. They're going to hate anyways. Just do you and live your best life."

[BlackLightning]

7 minutes ago, Morte said:

I was wondering whether the abomination was right insofar as Dany will leave after the fight against the Other, disgusted and disturbed like Etzel at the end of the Nibelungenlied - and goes back to Essos and her people (maybe keeping Dragonstone as the outpost it originally was).

First of all, who is Etzel and what is Nibelungenlied. I'm going to have to check it out.

Second of all, what do you mean you are wondering whether the abomination might be right? Dany did not leave after the fight against the Other. She never intended on leaving after the Others had been dealt with...not in "the abomination."

[Morte]

Just now, BlackLightning said:

First of all, who is Etzel and what is Nibelungenlied. I'm going to have to check it out.

Second of all, what do you mean you are wondering whether the abomination might be right? Dany did not leave after the fight against the Other. She never intended on leaving after the Others had been dealt with...not in "the abomination."

She was carried away by Drogon in the abomination; as it may or may not be a variation of that we will see in the books (still: Gardening can always interfere, lucky us!) maybe her flying away on Drogon will indeed happening in the books. But in the sense of leaving, not being carried away dead, but going home to Essos, as she simply doesn't want the Iron Throne.

As for Etzel: The mystical variant of Attila; he appears at the end of the Nibelungenlied (a hero epos of the Mediaeval Ages), to witness as the remaining Burgundians (including his wife) kill each other (and his son).

[BlackLightning]

9 minutes ago, Morte said:

She was carried away by Drogon in the abomination; as it may or may not be a variation of that we will see in the books (still: Gardening can always interfere, lucky us!) maybe her flying away on Drogon will indeed happening in the books. But in the sense of leaving, not being carried away dead, but going home to Essos, as she simply doesn't want the Iron Throne.

Ohhhhh.

Yeah okay now I remember. I had deleted it from my mind because that whole sequence in the Throne Room was outrageously stupid. I'd rather forget it all over again.

I can see it happening. I don't think it will but I can see it. It makes a lot more sense for Dany (re: not Arya) to be the one to just cut her losses and leave for parts unknown.

I'm reading upon this Nibelungenlied story now....

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Morte said:

She was carried away by Drogon in the abomination; as it may or may not be a variation of that we will see in the books (still: Gardening can always interfere, lucky us!) maybe her flying away on Drogon will indeed happening in the books. But in the sense of leaving, not being carried away dead, but going home to Essos, as she simply doesn't want the Iron Throne.

As for Etzel: The mystical variant of Attila; he appears at the end of the Nibelungenlied (a hero epos of the Mediaeval Ages), to witness as the remaining Burgundians (including his wife) kill each other (and his son).

That isn't a bad idea. If Jon Snow were to die destroying the Heart of Winter beyond the Wall there might be nothing left in Westeros for her. If they have a child, it could be the nominal successor, with Bran and the other survivors guarding and rebuilding the world.

She could return to Vaes Dothrak or settle down in Braavos as a private person, or whatever.

The idea that Jon could survive things if he were the one who defeated the Others is very unlikely. Whoever is that person/people will have to give his life in the process of it. This is not Tolkien were some stupid eagles fly in to the rescue whenever somebody is about to die.

[Rose of Red Lake]

30 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Why would Daenerys want to be Jaehaerys? It is true that Jaehaerys had a long peaceful reign and that is why he is fondly remembered in Westeros. But his family life was a wreck and he was not a nice person. Not only did he consistently threaten his subjects (and those across the Narrow Sea) with dragonfire but the Dance of the Dragons was actually his fault. That nightmare began with him. Whether or not he left Westeros a better place than how he found it is a debate for another thread. But I'd say no, he didn't. It was more of the same.

Speaking of fondly remembered, Aegon the Conqueror is also fondly remembered in Westeros. Aegon was, well....a conqueror and a strong, able ruler. Aegon the Unlikely is also fondly remembered in Westeros as he was the last king who cared about the welfare of the smallfolk.

Daenerys compares herself more to Aegon I than any other Targaryen king in the entire series. Which is a bit ironic and ham-fisted of her because Dany should be comparing herself to Aegon I and Aegon V both.

Daenerys did miss her chance of becoming "similar" to Jaehaerys but it's not in the way you think.

My take, from GRRMs statements that Dany could learn a thing or two from reading Fire and Blood, is that he's talking about how to rule effectively using dragons as a deterrent. 

The more they are used, the more the Targaryens end up shooting themselves in the foot. This was shown with Valyria, Dorne, and the Dance.

The lesson being, if a person wants to actually build a legacy, make the land prosper, and make it last, they have to sit down and do the hard work of realpolitik and conciliation, without taking the easy way out with nukes. That's why Jaehaerys (for all his personal faults) was able to rule longer. 

Dany had a chance to be a conciliator in Meereen - and she did a good job of that, until she completely got wrapped up in glorifying Drogon. Now she cares more about her dragons, her throne, her house words, and Viserys' stories, than actual people.

I dont think she's like Aegon because she can't transition from conquest to ruling; Meereen was her chance to show that she could do that. 

She's all conqueror now, and actually I think she has more in common with the Dothraki who don't settle down, just move from one conquest to the next.

[Morte]

14 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm reading upon this Nibelungenlied story now....

It doesn't have that much parallels to ASoIaF, except maybe for vengeance and pride leaving everybody dead in the end...

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She could return to Vaes Dothrak or settle down in Braavos as a private person, or whatever.

Actually this makes a lot of sense, since Westeros are not her people, her people are the freed men and the Dothraki, so her going back to Essos to help build and maintain a culture without slave trade would indeed be much more in character, imho.

[Morte]

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This is not Tolkien

Just wanted to add (and can't probably edit my post): It would also make a fine mirror for the departure to the west at the end - just here they would go to the east, and as in Lord of the Rings some people from Westeros would go with her.

[Wolf's Bane]

6 minutes ago, Morte said:

It doesn't have that much parallels to ASoIaF, except maybe for vengeance and pride leaving everybody dead in the end...

Actually this makes a lot of sense, since Westeros are not her people, her people are the freed men and the Dothraki, so her going back to Essos to help build and maintain a culture without slave trade would indeed be much more in character, imho.

This is for her future.  After the threat of the white walkers have been addressed.  One of the failings for many leaders in the story is the inability to prioritize.  It is what ended the leaderships of Robb Stark and Jon Snow.  It is the part of the reason for their failures.  Daenerys has better judgment than those two.  Save the world first before stopping slavery.  Make sure there is a world to save before trying to improve that world.  I believe this is what Quaithe wants her to learn.  There is no other leader in the story capable of bringing about this kind of positive social change.  

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

For the record, I think it's going to be a group of people who go up to the Heart of Winter and destroy/neutralize whatever is there. Not just one single person. If a single person goes, then it's basically an act of suicide. If a group goes, then it becomes a suicide mission with much greater chance of success and survival.

It would only be problematic for one person if there were many people at the Heart of Winter. I think that's just a magical deserted place of utmost cold where that frozen, cold-hearted greenseer sits who controls and directs the Others (or keeps them alive). Think of the whole 'fire consumes, the cold preserves' talk - hatred, anger, pain frozen and preserved in ice will last millennia. Whoever created the Others made himself or herself unable to ever let go of the feelings that triggered that decision. Think of the Children Bran encounters in the cave - they are just sad and weary little creatures who accepted the fact that their death is inevitable. The fire in their hearts eventually consumed all the anger and the hatred they had long ago, leaving only sadness and defeat. But that wouldn't have been the mindset of all of them thousands of years ago.

The idea why this is going to be Jon is rather simple. For one, he is the male hero kind of guy who is going to do something of importance in the grand finale. And he is still a mobile guy, unlike Bran. Also, he is likely to become a dragonrider meaning he could fly a dragon to this place. And, most importantly, he will likely be imbued with living fire the same way Melisandre is (who might accompany him on this one-way trip) when he is resurrected - and there has to be a plot-related purpose why the hell the author decided to kill Jon Snow and resurrect him afterwards in magical manner. That is not a plot anyone expected. But there has to be a narrative benefit from that.

The idea is then that no normal mortal being can live in this utmost cold. Any mortal - be it human being or Child of the Forest - going to the Heart of Winter would freeze to death long before reaching the place of the big bad (or perhaps only sad bad). But Jon (and Mel) with fire in their veins could do that.

And this could also bring about the most important part of that 'A Song of Ice and Fire' meaning with Jon being imbued with fire being able to melt the ice in the heart of that Heart of Winter creature, not necessarily killing it but making it understand that its cause is pointless and it should stop because the descendants of the people who murdered so many Children of the Forest do not deserve to be butchered with all other life for the sins of their ancestors.

Bran would be the one providing Jon with the necessary knowledge to get through to that creature because he would uncover who the creator of the Others were before he or she became the abomination that runs the Heart of Winter today.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

It all makes sense and it would naturally inspire the stupidity of what became the wight-hunt plot. And I, for one, don't even think the wight hunting plot was that bad. Not on paper at least.

Oh, well, that was shit because it would no longer be necessary at this point to use a living wight to prove anything. They would have dozens of people who have seen them.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

But I never thought Jon would be the one to go to the Heart of Winter. I used to think that Arya would be the one to do it (a part of me still thinks that). Given that she is a Stark of Winterfell and a skinchanger, given the fact that her fighting style makes her more likely to survive a one-on-one encounter with the Others and given that whatever is in the Heart of Winter is the antithesis of the creed of Faceless Men (i.e. the dead should stay dead), I would think that Arya would be suited for such a mission.

Arya is a little child, she cannot walk thousands of leagues through snow. And she cannot fly a dragon, either.

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

If Arya deserts the Faceless Men, she'll be looking over her shoulder and sleeping with one eye open for the rest of her life. If this final assignment is what gets the Faceless Men to bury the hatchet, then I think she'd be okay with it. Especially if something has already happened to Jon.

There is George's old outline about how Arya was originally supposed to go beyond the Wall with Bran (the same one where Catelyn would die and become an ice wight or a Other or something not quite living). And there is that old line from Game about how Arya will be found dead come spring with her sword in her hand. A lot of people -- including myself -- saw and still see foreshadowing in that.

What doesn't make sense is Arya coming to appreciate who she is and then abandoning it all over again multiple times. All this is off-topic though.

I can see Arya getting the job to murder Dany and the dragons after 'Jaqen' returns with that book from Oldtown. And her decision to leave the Faceless Men and their cult would be when she decides not to murder Daenerys or the dragons (and instead kills Jaqen who may have accompanied her). But what she does thereafter I've no idea. Perhaps join Dany for the time being and help her and eventually Jon to save the world.

The whole avenge angle for Arya from the abomination makes no sense in the books because that's Catelyn's story, not Arya's. Even Littlefinger might be get his ultimate kiss of death from Catelyn after she makes it fucking clear to him that he never fucked her. He has to hear that from her own lips (or throat).

26 minutes ago, Morte said:

It doesn't have that much parallels to ASoIaF, except maybe for vengeance and pride leaving everybody dead in the end...

Actually this makes a lot of sense, since Westeros are not her people, her people are the freed men and the Dothraki, so her going back to Essos to help build and maintain a culture without slave trade would indeed be much more in character, imho.

Well, I've always said that Dany won't go to Westeros because she wants the throne. She will there because destiny and prophecy demand it of her. Marwyn and Quaithe and Moqorro/Benerro, too, will convince her that she is the one from the prophecy, and the information about the Others from Marwyn will make it clear to her that they have to be stopped. And she knows from the House of the Undying that Stannis and Aegon (and whatever that stone beast breathing shadow fire will be) are false saviors, lies she will have to slay. She has to go there to stop these people from playing into the hands of the Others/making things worse for mankind.

At her end her war with Aegon will have little to do with 'who is the rightful king' and more with 'who can save mankind from the ice demons'. And to be sure, I also expect Aegon to believe he is the promised prince because that's what Rhaegar believed of his son. While Aegon and his followers believe him to be that Aegon they will also believe he can defeat the Others when they realize the Others are a thing.

It will be more a war about 'who is the true savior' than 'who should sit the throne'.

And if she goes to Westeros just to help the people there to save mankind, it could also make sense that she would leave it afterwards if nothing is there to keep here (i.e. if Jon were to die - which I think he will because George is not going to have the resurrected zombie guy like happily ever after). If it were Tolkien there would be the West for Jon (like it was for Gandalf and Frodo and Bilbo), but it isn't Tolkien. George's resurrected guys will finish their mission, perhaps even find one last love, perhaps even father a child, but they won't be there once the last battle is done.

[BlackLightning]

9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

My take, from GRRMs statements that Dany could learn a thing or two from reading Fire and Blood, is that he's talking about how to rule effectively using dragons as a deterrent. 

The more they are used, the more the Targaryens end up shooting themselves in the foot. This was shown with Valyria, Dorne, and the Dance.

The lesson being, if a person wants to actually build a legacy, make the land prosper, and make it last, they have to sit down and do the hard work of realpolitik and conciliation, without taking the easy way out with nukes. That's why Jaehaerys (for all his personal faults) was able to rule longer. 

Dany had a chance to be a conciliator in Meereen - and she did a good job of that, until she completely got wrapped up in glorifying Drogon. Now she cares more about her dragons, her throne, her house words, and Viserys' stories, than actual people.

I dont think she's like Aegon because she can't transition from conquest to ruling; Meereen was her chance to show that she could do that. 

She's all conqueror now, and actually I think she has more in common with the Dothraki who don't settle down, just move from one conquest to the next.

Ummmm no...

She did have a chance to be a conciliator in Meereen. You're right about that.

What you are wrong about is...pretty much everything else.

Do you realize that Dany would have died if she had left Drogon to the mobs and stayed put in Meereen? It was obviously a death trap. Her food was poisoned. If Strong Belwas is three times her size and nearly died, what would have happened to her?

What happened with Dany is what could've happened to Robb. If Robb had listened to his mother (and maybe even his own gut) and had kept Grey Wind closer, then Robb might've escaped the Red Wedding. But no. Robb chose the absolute worst moments to be "dutiful." He first let the Spicer-Westerling family dictate (re: weaken) his relationship with Grey Wind and then he let the Freys deal with Grey Wind. All so he could play the part of a dutiful king for people who wanted him dead.

Don't you see the similarities? You should seeing as Dany had a vision of the Red Wedding in Qarth. But I'll spell it out for you.

Dany is Robb. Drogon is Grey Wind. The Meereenese are the Freys and the Boltons. The Yunkish are the Lannisters.

Dany survived because she held true to her familiar. Robb died because he cast aside his familiar.

Dany had no absolutely chance of being Jaehaerys the Conciliator in Meereen because no one seemed to want to conciliate with her. Conciliation requires two or more parties. You can't conciliate by yourself. Jaehaerys the First didn't have a Sons of the Harpy problem. Aegon, Aenys and Maegor did have similar problems however; Aegon and Maegor rose to the challenge (Maegor is a not a good example but bear with me) but Aenys caved and collapsed under the pressure. Aegon created a Kingsguard and spent most of his reign either on the move or on Dragonstone, an island fortress. Maegor was decisive and crushed his opposition with diplomacy, spycraft, conventional warfare and dragonfire. 

Daenerys married a man she didn't even like for the sake of peace. Not only that but she didn't relegate her new husband to the status of consort (aka royal bedwarmer); she gave him free reign. She even adopted Meereenese customs. Oh and I can't forget about how she locked up Viserion and Rhaegal underneath the Great Pyramid. Huge sacrifice there.

What did it do? Oops, I meant to ask what did it undo? I'll answer that. Everything she had worked for. The fighting pits were back as if they had never left. Astapor was destroyed with the survivors being forced into slavery. People were "selling themselves" back into slavery inside Meereen--aka the slave trade was alive in Meereen. Qarth, Yunkai, Volantis and just about every other surrounding city that declared war did not rescind their declarations of war. The Lhazarene ignored her. She lets herself be strong-armed and gaslit into giving her allies crucial away as hostages for her enemies (WTF!!!). The Yunkish had gone a step further to set up a slave-trading ring slaves right outside the city--the disrespect of that alone is almost unfathomable.

You're just as blind as Dany was, if not even more blind. Dany was fighting two wars -- a shadow war (insurgency) within the city and a cold war outside the city -- and she was losing both. Badly.

The peace of Meereen was fake. Either Dany was going to be outright assassinated or imprisoned or she would have been crushed under the weight of all her enemies.

You're being unrealistic. The only way the realpolitik of Jaehaerys' reign was possible was because he was preceded by Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel, not including his own mother and his stepfather both of whom were skilled politicians.

Slave and free cannot peacefully coexist. Either one has to reign supreme or they have to be kept separate. And that separate but equal thing is also bulls---.

Rose, you seem to be so deeply anti-war that you are being irrational. Nothing is free and everything has a price. The whole point of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons was to showcase just how expensive war is, how expensive peace is and how fragile a peace with no justice is. Without justice, there is no peace. And lasting peace is purchased with blood.

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

 

You're being unrealistic. The only way the realpolitik of Jaehaerys' reign was possible was because he was preceded by Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel, not including his own mother and his stepfather both of whom were skilled politicians.

Slave and free cannot peacefully coexist. Either one has to reign supreme or they have to be kept separate. And that separate but equal thing is also bulls---.

Rose, you seem to be so deeply anti-war that you are being irrational. Nothing is free and everything has a price. The whole point of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons was to showcase just how expensive war is, how expensive peace is and how fragile a peace with no justice is. Without justice, there is no peace. And lasting peace is purchased with blood.

That's the truth of it.  Slave and free can only co-exist when the free have to shame themselves to keep the peace with the slavers. 

[BlackLightning]

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It would only be problematic for one person if there were many people at the Heart of Winter. I think that's just a magical deserted place of utmost cold where that frozen, cold-hearted greenseer sits who controls and directs the Others (or keeps them alive). Think of the whole 'fire consumes, the cold preserves' talk - hatred, anger, pain frozen and preserved in ice will last millennia. Whoever created the Others made himself or herself unable to ever let go of the feelings that triggered that decision. Think of the Children Bran encounters in the cave - they are just sad and weary little creatures who accepted the fact that their death is inevitable. The fire in their hearts eventually consumed all the anger and the hatred they had long ago, leaving only sadness and defeat. But that wouldn't have been the mindset of all of them thousands of years ago.

The idea why this is going to be Jon is rather simple. For one, he is the male hero kind of guy who is going to do something of importance in the grand finale. And he is still a mobile guy, unlike Bran. Also, he is likely to become a dragonrider meaning he could fly a dragon to this place. And, most importantly, he will likely be imbued with living fire the same way Melisandre is (who might accompany him on this one-way trip) when he is resurrected - and there has to be a plot-related purpose why the hell the author decided to kill Jon Snow and resurrect him afterwards in magical manner. That is not a plot anyone expected. But there has to be a narrative benefit from that.

The idea is then that no normal mortal being can live in this utmost cold. Any mortal - be it human being or Child of the Forest - going to the Heart of Winter would freeze to death long before reaching the place of the big bad (or perhaps only sad bad). But Jon (and Mel) with fire in their veins could do that.

And this could also bring about the most important part of that 'A Song of Ice and Fire' meaning with Jon being imbued with fire being able to melt the ice in the heart of that Heart of Winter creature, not necessarily killing it but making it understand that its cause is pointless and it should stop because the descendants of the people who murdered so many Children of the Forest do not deserve to be butchered with all other life for the sins of their ancestors.

Bran would be the one providing Jon with the necessary knowledge to get through to that creature because he would uncover who the creator of the Others were before he or she became the abomination that runs the Heart of Winter today.

Oh, well, that was shit because it would no longer be necessary at this point to use a living wight to prove anything. They would have dozens of people who have seen them.

Arya is a little child, she cannot walk thousands of leagues through snow. And she cannot fly a dragon, either.

I can see Arya getting the job to murder Dany and the dragons after 'Jaqen' returns with that book from Oldtown. And her decision to leave the Faceless Men and their cult would be when she decides not to murder Daenerys or the dragons (and instead kills Jaqen who may have accompanied her). But what she does thereafter I've no idea. Perhaps join Dany for the time being and help her and eventually Jon to save the world.

The whole avenge angle for Arya from the abomination makes no sense in the books because that's Catelyn's story, not Arya's. Even Littlefinger might be get his ultimate kiss of death from Catelyn after she makes it fucking clear to him that he never fucked her. He has to hear that from her own lips (or throat).

I fiercely doubt that it will be that simple.

Plus, the Others come off as very territorial. Sure, whether the Others are territorial or not remains to be confirmed but they had been killing wildlings and allowing them to become wights for quite some time. And they killed Waymar after they had accosted him.

The Others are not human but they are mortal and sentient. Do you really think that mortal, sentient beings will leave their home territory unguarded while they are away at war (if war is what you want to call it)?

I don't think so. This trip to the Heart of Winter to do whatever has to be done is much too important to be entrusted to one person. It may even be too much work for one person to even feasibly accomplish.

Besides, what Bran saw there in the Heart of Winter terrified/upset him so badly he was driven to tears. And that was after seeing dragons stirring in the east, Jon dead and the horde of ice zombies marching south.

If one person goes, I don't care if they have a dragon. It is an bonafide suicide mission with the success of the suicide half being guaranteed and the success of the mission half being a pipe dream.

Wait, that might actually make a good ending. I don't think Jon is surviving the series anyways; and if he does, he'll die a sad, lonely, disgraceful death long before spring. Characters who come back from the dead in Martin's stories aren't normal and they certainly aren't capable of being "happy."

You do make great points though. Jon is going to become a dragonrider. I'm willing to put actual money on the fact that he will be the only person besides Daenerys who is going to be able to get a dragon and keep it. Meaning that I think one of the dragons will end up dead early on and/or will change owners like the Iron Throne changes occupants.

I would like to see Melisandre come face-to-face with the Great Other or a similar being. It'd be a perfect ending for her and it'd be great if we could get an magical battle between a fire elemental and an ice elemental in the series.

Getting there on dragonback would require the complete destruction of the Wall and its magics. But it'd certainly be more feasible than getting there on foot.

My thought was that a Faceless Man (Arya), a fusion between the Brotherhood without Banners, the Poor Fellows and the Night's Watch and a red priest (Moqorro/Benerro/Melisandre) would all form a group and head north and deal with whatever is up there. They'd all die and Arya would be the last one standing.

I low-key want to see a storyline where Arya is on the run from the Faceless Men like Jason Bourne. I'd love to have that and an Westeros version of Arya volunteering for a James Bond type of mission. If Roose or Ramsay survive the Battle of Winterfell and lock themselves up in the Dreadfort, I'd really love to see Arya infiltrate the Dreadfort and formally introduce herself to the Boltons. But alas...

You and I had the same ideas in regards to Catelyn and Littlefinger. Catelyn and Jon is going to fulfill her mission but she will not have a happy ending. Bittersweet is more than possible for Catelyn because reuniting with her still-living children whom she thought dead and lost while she herself is undead and doomed to return to the grave is almost the definition of bittersweet.

If Jon does bow out of the story by taking a trip to the Heart of Winter and then dying alone there, then it'd have to be immediately after the endgame coronation of the King of Westeros is settled or immediately before.