How can the Tysha thing work?

[The hairy bear]

While the scenario may work better if it took place before Jaime joined the KG, I honestly can't see it as a huge problem. And certainly not a plot hole. It's something that can be easily explained away.

I don't see any problem in believing that Tywin could cow a 20 year old Jaime into lying to his brother. It's Tywin we are talking about! We have seen him intimidating vassals, enemies, and even kings. This is what he does, and specially with his children. We have seen how he forces Cersei to accept a marriage against her wishes, or sends king Joffrey to bed. Why couldn't he convince Jaime to tell a lie to Tyrion, specially if he convinced him that it was for his brother's own good?

I also don't see why Jaime couldn't visit Casterly Rock now and then while he was serving in the Kingsguard. A visit during Cersei's pregnancy, or perhaps after Joffrey's birth in order to bring the news, is perfectly credible IMHO. And in fact, in a way it fits better if we can assume that Jaime had already gone back to King's Landing when Tysha was gang raped.

[EccentricHorse11]

As many have pointed, it was perfectly fine for Jaime to take a trip to the Rock even if he is a Kingsgaurd knight. Robert probably did not care. 

Now as to how Tywin convinced him, well Tywin just seems to be a very scary guy in general and maybe he convinced Jaime that it was okay because Tysha was probably a gold digger anyway. So maybe Jaime just did it to  please his mother and tried to justify to himself but probably deep down he knew it was wrong. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

 

I don't see any problem in believing that Tywin could cow a 20 year old Jaime into lying to his brother. It's Tywin we are talking about! We have seen him intimidating vassals, enemies, and even kings. This is what he does, and specially with his children.

Why would he need to intimidate him? In their world Tyrion falling in love with homeless orphans he has just met is not an ideal situation for Tyrion.

It does not seem a huge case that Jaime would agree with his father that lying about Tysha would be for his own good. Jaime did not know that Tywin would have her gangraped or that Tyrion would spend the rest of his life pining over this person he breifly knew.

"She was no whore. I never bought her for you. That was a lie that Father commanded me to tell. Tysha was . . . she was what she seemed to be. A crofter's daughter, chance met on the road."

Tyrion could hear the faint sound of his own breath whistling hollowly through the scar of his nose. Jaime could not meet his eyes. Tysha. He tried to remember what she had looked like. A girl, she was only a girl, no older than Sansa. "My wife," he croaked. "She wed me."

"For your gold, Father said. She was lowborn, you were a Lannister of Casterly Rock. All she wanted was the gold, which made her no different from a whore, so . . . so it would not be a lie, not truly, and . . . he said that you required a sharp lesson. That you would learn from it, and thank me later . . ."

 

Nothing from that sounds like Tywin made Jaime do something out of fear. He convinced him it was the right thing to do, which in their world it would have been.

 

GRRM; I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why would he need to intimidate him? In their world Tyrion falling in love with homeless orphans he has just met is not an ideal situation for Tyrion.

 

Well maybe because Jaime loves his brother and has some experiences about "not ideal situations" himself- usually he himself doesn't seem to care about those things really

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

While the scenario may work better if it took place before Jaime joined the KG, I honestly can't see it as a huge problem. And certainly not a plot hole. It's something that can be easily explained away.

If one wants to explain it away one can. But I don't want to help the author explain away inconsistencies and strange things ;-). That's his job, not ours.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't see any problem in believing that Tywin could cow a 20 year old Jaime into lying to his brother. It's Tywin we are talking about! We have seen him intimidating vassals, enemies, and even kings. This is what he does, and specially with his children. We have seen how he forces Cersei to accept a marriage against her wishes, or sends king Joffrey to bed. Why couldn't he convince Jaime to tell a lie to Tyrion, specially if he convinced him that it was for his brother's own good?

Because a realistic depiction of Jaime Lannister would involve him joining the KG and murdering his king as events emancipating him from fatherly authority. In a very real sense Jaime murdered his second father when he murdered his king. The idea that the Kingslayer can be cowed by anyone, especially a distant and absent father he must have rarely seen/visited while a child and youth, is just not very convincing.

If Jaime didn't want to lie Tywin wouldn't have had no way to force him.

Joffrey and Tommen were Tywin's grandsons and children. He never intimidated Robert or Aerys II or any other king he knew - to our knowledge at least.

One can try to spin things so that Jaime wanted to tell that lie ... but if that were the case why the hell did he feel so bad about that afterwards?

Not to mention the entire rape thing wouldn't have flown realistically if Tyrion Lannister himself had been the brother-in-law to the king. He wouldn't have been at his father's mercy in the same way he is in the story. He could have intervened with his sister and his brother-in-law. The marriage would also not have gone away in the same way it did.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I also don't see why Jaime couldn't visit Casterly Rock now and then while he was serving in the Kingsguard. A visit during Cersei's pregnancy, or perhaps after Joffrey's birth in order to bring the news, is perfectly credible IMHO. And in fact, in a way it fits better if we can assume that Jaime had already gone back to King's Landing when Tysha was gang raped.

Visiting, perhaps, yes. But with the king and queen, not just all by himself. And there is no indication Cersei or Robert or the court are there during this episode.

[The hairy bear]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't want to help the author explain away inconsistencies and strange things ;-). That's his job, not ours.

I don't think this can be considered an inconsistency, though. An inconsistency would be Bran's horse changing sex, Aelinor Penrose no longer being Aerys' sister, or Jeyne Westerling's shrinking hips.

What we have here is something that just hasn't been specified, and doesn't need to. It wouldn't fit the narrative. When Tyrion explains the history to Bronn, he doesn't even mention Tysha's name, or any other detail. As it should be, because Bronn is just a sellsword he has recently met. It's already unusual that he confides this intimate story with him. In this context, it would make no sense for him to enter in the details of why was Jaime at Casterly Rock, or whether he was visiting alone or with the royal court.

We don't need to assume the KG don't have holidays, or can't be sent on diplomatic missions to visit the Lords Paramount. And we don't need to assume that just because Tyrion didn't told Bronn, Robert and Cersei weren't around

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Because a realistic depiction of Jaime Lannister would involve him joining the KG and murdering his king as events emancipating him from fatherly authority. In a very real sense Jaime murdered his second father when he murdered his king. The idea that the Kingslayer can be cowed by anyone, especially a distant and absent father he must have rarely seen/visited while a child and youth, is just not very convincing.

I disagree. It seems to me that you make up your mind about how things should work, and then you complain when your story doesn't fit your ideas.

Murdering a king doesn't need to correlate with emancipation from one's father's authority. And I don't share the view that Jaime saw Aerys as a second father at all.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention the entire rape thing wouldn't have flown realistically if Tyrion Lannister himself had been the brother-in-law to the king .He wouldn't have been at his father's mercy in the same way he is in the story. He could have intervened with his sister and his brother-in-law. The marriage would also not have gone away in the same way it did.

What wouldn't be realistic is to expect that Cersei (of all people) would defend Tyrion (the 'monster' who killed her mother and that she used to torture as a baby). Or to expect that Robert would intervene or care at all (the same Robert from Castle Darry). It's a crime'' committed in Lannisport, involving Tywin's 13 year old son. No one is going to question Tywin's right to judge the matter as he sees fit.

[R2D]

Parental authority is a thing. Psychological dependence can be as strong as legal power....

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, R2D said:

Parental authority is a thing. Psychological dependence can be as strong as legal power....

 

Why would it need to be psychological dependence?

 

Sometimes I really think many of you are clueless to the world and society GRRM is writing about. The son of the most powerful Lord in the realm marrying a homeless, orphan peasant he has just met is not an intelligent action to do. Jaime's white lie, trying to convince Tyrion to not have her as his wife, is tough love to his brother who is already seen as a laughingstock in their world.

 

If 13 year old Robb had married some peasant he had just met do people think Ned and Cat would just accept it? Sansa is 12 and desperately wants to marry Joffrey, Ned tells her no and that she will marry someone else of her father's choosing who will be better for her.

 

Now is their a psychological dependence between Tywin and Jaime, sure, there can be (though we've not really seen evidence of this, considering he joined the Kingsguard against his father's wishes and refused to leave despite his father asking him to), but that does not mean everything Jaime does is a result of that.

 

Had Jaime known what would have happened to Tysha infront of Tyrion I'm pretty sure he'd never have gone along with it, but he was clueless to that part of the story and is only informed of it from Tyrion in ASOS.

[R2D]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Why would it need to be psychological dependence?

 

Sometimes I really think many of you are clueless to the world and society GRRM is writing about. The son of the most powerful Lord in the realm marrying a homeless, orphan peasant he has just met is not an intelligent action to do. Jaime's white lie, trying to convince Tyrion to not have her as his wife, is tough love to his brother who is already seen as a laughingstock in their world.

 

If 13 year old Robb had married some peasant he had just met do people think Ned and Cat would just accept it? Sansa is 12 and desperately wants to marry Joffrey, Ned tells her no and that she will marry someone else of her father's choosing who will be better for her.

 

Now is their a psychological dependence between Tywin and Jaime, sure, there can be (though we've not really seen evidence of this, considering he joined the Kingsguard against his father's wishes and refused to leave despite his father asking him to), but that does not mean everything Jaime does is a result of that.

 

Had Jaime known what would have happened to Tysha infront of Tyrion I'm pretty sure he'd never have gone along with it, but he was clueless to that part of the story and is only informed of it from Tyrion in ASOS.

Ok, rude.

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think this can be considered an inconsistency, though. An inconsistency would be Bran's horse changing sex, Aelinor Penrose no longer being Aerys' sister, or Jeyne Westerling's shrinking hips.

Oh, but the context of the story implies Jaime lived at the Rock at the time. He and Tyrion were riding around as if Jaime lived there and Jaime felt responsible for people who haven't been his people for years and years - he wasn't the heir of Casterly Rock since he joined the KG. Realistically, Jaime would have mocked his father and uncles for how shitty their policing was in the region, not see it as a personal insult. That's the behavior of a guy who lives in the region.

Not to mention that it strikes one as very odd that a Kingsguard would hire a whore for the benefit of his brother. That all doesn't fit very well.

15 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

We don't need to assume the KG don't have holidays, or can't be sent on diplomatic missions to visit the Lords Paramount. And we don't need to assume that just because Tyrion didn't told Bronn, Robert and Cersei weren't around

There is no other precedent for a Kingsguard to visit his family alone for a longer period of time or at all. Barristan Selmy doesn't even seem to know his relations very well, for instance. And Arys Oakheart also doesn't recall any visits with his mother and brothers.

15 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Murdering a king doesn't need to correlate with emancipation from one's father's authority. And I don't share the view that Jaime saw Aerys as a second father at all.

He doesn't have to see him as one for him to fulfill that role. The king's authority is much greater than that of any father's in this world, even more so if you happen to serve the king as Kingsguard.

As I said, one can sort of make sense of it when one wants if one assumes Jaime told the lie willingly and wasn't forced, but the idea that his father still had any authority over him after he joined the KG (and Tywin was no longer/not yet the Hand) just doesn't make a lot of sense. And neither does the idea that Jaime still sort of lived at the place.

15 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

What wouldn't be realistic is to expect that Cersei (of all people) would defend Tyrion (the 'monster' who killed her mother and that she used to torture as a baby). Or to expect that Robert would intervene or care at all (the same Robert from Castle Darry). It's a crime'' committed in Lannisport, involving Tywin's 13 year old son. No one is going to question Tywin's right to judge the matter as he sees fit.

I'm not saying Robert or Cersei would have really done anything, merely that treating the queen's brother and king's brother-in-law in this fashion is odd. Tyrion himself tells us that he liked King Robert - something that's hard to swallow if Robert had known about Tyrion's first marriage and done nothing to prevent the entire ugly affair. And he would have known about the whole thing. In fact, a lot of people would have known about it if Cersei had already been Robert's wife at that point. Instead, the whole thing is supposed to be a secret.

[frenin]

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no other precedent for a Kingsguard to visit his family alone for a longer period of time or at all. Barristan Selmy doesn't even seem to know his relations very well, for instance. And Arys Oakheart also doesn't recall any visits with his mother and brothers.

Oswell Whent did visit his brother at Harrenhall.