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Lord Varys

How can the Tysha thing work?

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Do any of you guys think that tidbit can work within the timeline?

If Tyrion is thirteen years old then it must have happened around 286 AC (also the year of Joff's birth). But Jaime was in the Kingsguard then. How on earth does it make sense that Tywin Lannister could force a Kingsguard, brother to the queen, and brother-in-law to the king to lie to Tyrion the way he did?

How does it make sense that only Jaime hangs out at the Rock and spends time with the dwarf and pretends to care about the safety of the lands near Lannisport when he is a Kingsguard and should thus be at the side of the king or at least the queen - neither of who seem to have been there during the event?

Is it even feasible to imagine that Tywin could force Jaime to do anything in this scenario? He no longer had any legal jurisdiction over him, nor any means to harm or hurt or threaten Jaime. And in light of the fact that Jaime knew the truth and didn't want to tell the lie to Tyrion how does it make sense that Jaime didn't approach Robert over the issue via Cersei or directly?

Does it make sense that Tywin could do a think like that if he had to fear that Jaime would turn to Robert for help and have the Crown investigate the entire incident? Couldn't Jaime have offered Tyrion to take him and Tysha to court where they would be safe, etc.?

The more I think about this incident the less convincing it is. The only way to salvage it would be to twist it completely around and make Jaime want to deceive Tyrion, etc. but that doesn't seem to make any sense. The idea that Tywin could force Jaime to do anything against his will is like expecting Ned or Robb to tell Benjen/Jon what to do after they have taken the black. That just doesn't seem to work.

Not to mention that I really don't see Kingslayer Jaime being a person who could be intimidated by Tywin, even if he hadn't been a KG at the time.

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I get everything your saying, but don't think it is of any import.  Tywin is still both their father, and will influence where he can.  Clearly from his actions in ASoS, he believes they will listen.  When they were younger, they would listen more.  If you assume Jaime is home on a visit not much else is needed to imagine the rest of the scenario playing out as described to us.  I wouldn't overthink this one.  I see no reason to question Tyrion or Jaime's recollection of the events.

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45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Tyrion is thirteen years old then it must have happened around 286 AC (also the year of Joff's birth). But Jaime was in the Kingsguard then. How on earth does it make sense that Tywin Lannister could force a Kingsguard, brother to the queen, and brother-in-law to the king to lie to Tyrion the way he did?

I always read it more like he convinced Jaime rather than forced him. He convinced him that Tysha was just after Tyrion's money & that they would be doing him a 'kindness' of sorts by ridding him of her. 

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

How does it make sense that only Jaime hangs out at the Rock and spends time with the dwarf and pretends to care about the safety of the lands near Lannisport when he is a Kingsguard and should thus be at the side of the king or at least the queen - neither of who seem to have been there during the event?

Yeah, that's an issue. I'm not good with the timelines so I don't know. Did Jaime join the KG that same year? Maybe he joined after this event? Only other possibility I can see is that Aerys allowed Tywin to send Jaime there to patrol the lands, temporarily, until someone else could be sent? I'm just guessing. 

 

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So it's somewhat ambiguous because Jaime first says it was a lie father "commanded" me to tell, but then:

Quote

“For your gold, Father said. She was lowborn, you were a Lannister of Casterly Rock.
         All she wanted was the gold, which made her no different from a whore, so … so it would not be a lie, not truly, and … he said that you required a sharp lesson. That you would learn from it, and thank me later …”

It seems there was a level of convincing involved. If I had to guess I would say Tywin likely commanded Jaime & when he got some push back about it he convinced him it was for the best. 

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18 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

I get everything your saying, but don't think it is of any import.  Tywin is still both their father, and will influence where he can.  Clearly from his actions in ASoS, he believes they will listen.  When they were younger, they would listen more.  If you assume Jaime is home on a visit not much else is needed to imagine the rest of the scenario playing out as described to us.  I wouldn't overthink this one.  I see no reason to question Tyrion or Jaime's recollection of the events.

I don't question the scenario as given, I question whether it makes within the framework of the story.

I'd say George dropped the ball there, writing this thing before he had figured out when exactly it was to take place or perhaps even before figuring out how much older the twins were in comparison to Tyrion.

The only way this would make really sense as intended would be if Tyrion were but two years younger than Jaime, and Jaime not yet in the KG at the time. Because only then would Tywin be able to really intimidate his heir.

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, that's an issue. I'm not good with the timelines so I don't know. Did Jaime join the KG that same year? Maybe he joined after this event? Only other possibility I can see is that Aerys allowed Tywin to send Jaime there to patrol the lands, temporarily, until someone else could be sent? I'm just guessing.

Jaime joined the KG in 281 AC, before the Rebellion. This thing took place around 286 AC, when Robert was king for three years.

5 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So it's somewhat ambiguous because Jaime first says it was a lie father "commanded" me to tell, but then:

It seems there was a level of convincing involved. If I had to guess I would say Tywin likely commanded Jaime & when he got some push back about it he convinced him it was for the best. 

That idea doesn't sit with Jaime seeing the whole thing as a lie and owing Tyrion a debt. He knew it was wrong from the start. How could his father have pushed him? Why didn't he tell the old man to tell the lie himself?

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24 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, that's an issue. I'm not good with the timelines so I don't know.

GRRM isn't either, really.  I think he probably just picked an age where Tyrion would be "old enough" and went with it.  I doubt he gave it more thought than that and I don't see why it would be important unless it were accidentally during Robert's rebellion.  Any time after that, Jaime could make any kind of excuse to go home for a visit.  It's not like Robert seemed the strictest of kings.

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16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd say George dropped the ball there, writing this thing before he had figured out when exactly it was to take place or perhaps even before figuring out how much older the twins were in comparison to Tyrion.

Agreed,  although I think it's fine to visit family.  The only real issue would be if it were smack in the middle of the rebellion, which it isn't.

 

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That idea doesn't sit with Jaime seeing the whole thing as a lie and owing Tyrion a debt. He knew it was wrong from the start. How could his father have pushed him? Why didn't he tell the old man to tell the lie himself?

Jaime was the only one on good terms with Tyrion.  The lie worked coming from him.  Jaime said himself why he felt it a debt, because he had no idea that the whole garrison would be turned out to rape her.  Seems Tywin lied to Jaime too, or told a half-truth, anyway.  

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32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime joined the KG in 281 AC, before the Rebellion. This thing took place around 286 AC, when Robert was king for three years

I see, yeah I'm not sure. Only thing that would work is he is home for a visit for some reason or another. 

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That idea doesn't sit with Jaime seeing the whole thing as a lie and owing Tyrion a debt. He knew it was wrong from the start. How could his father have pushed him? Why didn't he tell the old man to tell the lie himself?

Well, he knows it's wrong now. Maybe younger Jaime swallowed the manipulation a little better than older Jaime. 

17 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

GRRM isn't either, really.  I think he probably just picked an age where Tyrion would be "old enough" and went with it.  I doubt he gave it more thought than that and I don't see why it would be important unless it were accidentally during Robert's rebellion.  Any time after that, Jaime could make any kind of excuse to go home for a visit.  It's not like Robert seemed the strictest of kings

Yeah, for sure. 

 

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8 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Agreed,  although I think it's fine to visit family.  The only real issue would be if it were smack in the middle of the rebellion, which it isn't.

Sure, but it strikes me as odd that we have to imagine Jaime going to Casterly Rock in the year of Joff's birth (and clearly after his birth) for an extended visit, possibly without the king and queen. At this point the entire family may have gone to present Cersei's firstborn to Lord Tywin. But if they had been there the whole episode couldn't have worked the way it did. And if Jaime had wanted to linger some time more after the king left, Cersei would have likely remained with him at least.

Also, it strikes me as very odd that Jaime would leave Cersei alone with Robert for even the shortest of times. If Robert also accompanied him he might, but leave him back at home with the brute for his personal reasons? Not very likely.

8 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Jaime was the only one on good terms with Tyrion.  The lie worked coming from him.  Jaime said himself why he felt it a debt, because he had no idea that the whole garrison would be turned out to rape her.  Seems Tywin lied to Jaime too, or told a half-truth, anyway.  

The idea that they could have been that close is also very problematic. Jaime joined the KG at the age of fifteen in 281 AC. Tyrion was eight years old at that time. There wouldn't have been any visits during the last years of the Mad King. And afterwards Jaime's place was on the Kingsguard, too, with perhaps some visits to the West but not that many. It is very difficult to imagine that he could have been more than a very absent big brother.

And it is not that Jaime was living back home before - he was squire to Lord Sumner Crakehall, from the age of eleven, which would have been around 277 AC, after the tourney where Aerys rejected Cersei as bride for Rhaegar, when Tyrion was barely four years old. Sure, there would also have been visits and such, but how close can you grow during such visits? And Jaime remained with Lord Sumner as his squire until the Kingswood mission during which he was knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne.

In fact, it seems the thing that brought Jaime and Tyrion together as brothers was the lie about Tysha, not whatever was between them before - although it seems clear that to Jaime Tyrion was always a Lannister and his brother and treated him with love and kindness, the way he would treat any sibling of his.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, it strikes me as very odd that Jaime would leave Cersei alone with Robert for even the shortest of times. If Robert also accompanied him he might, but leave him back at home with the brute for his personal reasons? Not very likely.

Honestly, I don't think GRRM thought of any of this, but I do recall Jaime was told by Cersei to ignore / stay away from Joff, and he may have overdone it a bit or taken it personally and needed to get out of do

 

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that they could have been that close is also very problematic. Jaime joined the KG at the age of fifteen in 281 AC. Tyrion was eight years old at that time.

When he did join the KG, Cersei replaced him at home.   Tyrion certainly would experience the contrast at eight and remember it 5 years later.  Plus they were together when Tysha was found.  I really think that we are over-analyzing this.  

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't question the scenario as given, I question whether it makes within the framework of the story.

I'd say George dropped the ball there, writing this thing before he had figured out when exactly it was to take place or perhaps even before figuring out how much older the twins were in comparison to Tyrion.

The only way this would make really sense as intended would be if Tyrion were but two years younger than Jaime, and Jaime not yet in the KG at the time. Because only then would Tywin be able to really intimidate his heir.

 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that they could have been that close is also very problematic. Jaime joined the KG at the age of fifteen in 281 AC. Tyrion was eight years old at that time. There wouldn't have been any visits during the last years of the Mad King. And afterwards Jaime's place was on the Kingsguard, too, with perhaps some visits to the West but not that many. It is very difficult to imagine that he could have been more than a very absent big brother.

And it is not that Jaime was living back home before - he was squire to Lord Sumner Crakehall, from the age of eleven, which would have been around 277 AC, after the tourney where Aerys rejected Cersei as bride for Rhaegar, when Tyrion was barely four years old. Sure, there would also have been visits and such, but how close can you grow during such visits? And Jaime remained with Lord Sumner as his squire until the Kingswood mission during which he was knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne.

In fact, it seems the thing that brought Jaime and Tyrion together as brothers was the lie about Tysha, not whatever was between them before - although it seems clear that to Jaime Tyrion was always a Lannister and his brother and treated him with love and kindness, the way he would treat any sibling of his.

Martin did drop the ball here; another plot hole, and a big one:

Why would Tyrion believe a stranger, he hardly knew and most likely almost didn't remember. With the timeline it would be more likely for Tyrion believing one of his uncles, as they seemed to be around during his childhood.

In the story we are told however Tywin needs Jaime to convince Tyrion about Tysha being a prostitute -  as you said: It doesn't make much sense (also not as a bounding point between siblings... because: wtf?).

I agree with @The Green Bard that Martin did pick the "right" age for Tyrion and run with it, but did not check if it would work for the other characters (aka: Jaime). And it doesn't: Surely at the latest with him joining the KG Tywin's patria potestas would have ended. Also, Jaime isn't a teenager anymore (he's twenty here) and the sack of KL has already taken place, so he shouldn't be that easily manipulated by Tywin anymore.

It's a major mistake on Martin's part. :dunno:

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The only way this would make really sense as intended would be if Tyrion were but two years younger than Jaime, and Jaime not yet in the KG at the time. Because only then would Tywin be able to really intimidate his heir.

 

Where are you getting intimidation from?

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Kingslayer's feet was not nailed to the floor in the throne room.  He could travel about freely.  Also, Jaime has trouble with morals.  I don't think the man even knew right from wrong.  He would do what was asked without giving it too much thought.  He's not a high IQ fellow.  I doubt he gave it too much thought.  This is the fellow who was cuckolding his king for the better part of 15-16 years.  

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4 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Kingslayer's feet was not nailed to the floor in the throne room.  He could travel about freely.  Also, Jaime has trouble with morals.  I don't think the man even knew right from wrong.  He would do what was asked without giving it too much thought.  He's not a high IQ fellow.  I doubt he gave it too much thought.  This is the fellow who was cuckolding his king for the better part of 15-16 years.  

Jaime's committed the smallest of crimes here. He does not know that his father would order a gang rape or that Tyrion would carry a torch for the girl he knew a few weeks for the rest of his life.

Tyrion told a white lie that was in his brother's best interests. Marrying a peasant he barely knew was stupid for two reasons.

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Tournament in Lannisport/anywhere else in the wastelands maybe, I can remember offhand at least one lannisport tourney mentioned for example, not sure if ther years line up. I also am pretty sure of mention of a time when Robert's entire court visited the Rock( I think In one of Cerseis chapters, but I could be misremembering, I'll try to find it). Not sure if any of these dates line up any way though.

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Robert literally travelled to the North with only 3 of his Kingsguard. That means 4 of them were away from the King and royal family for a number of months.

All Kings are going to be different, but it seems for Robert the Kingsgaurd were more ceremonial than actual bodyguards.

Jaime was likely free to come and go as he pleased.

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19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If Tyrion is thirteen years old then it must have happened around 286 AC (also the year of Joff's birth). But Jaime was in the Kingsguard then. How on earth does it make sense that Tywin Lannister could force a Kingsguard, brother to the queen, and brother-in-law to the king to lie to Tyrion the way he did?

How does it make sense that only Jaime hangs out at the Rock and spends time with the dwarf and pretends to care about the safety of the lands near Lannisport when he is a Kingsguard and should thus be at the side of the king or at least the queen

Isn't it's likely, that it was Cersei, who decided that it will be better for Jaime to go away from King's Landing for some time? Because of Joffrey's birth. She wanted Jaime to cool off, not to begin to play daddy's role. And she didn't wanted for Jaime to be near her newborn baby, because she was afraid that people will notice their similarity. So she persuaded Robert to send Jaime to Casterly Rock, under some fake excuse. Or maybe it was even Jaime's own initiative - to be away from KL for some time after Joffrey's birth, and thus he asked Cersei to persuade Robert to give him time to go to Casterly Rock.

Maybe Tywin was aware that that excuse is fake, but that Jaime needed to stay at the Casterly Rock for some unknown reason. Thus, Tywin forced Jaime to take part in his conspiracy against Tyrion, or, if he would have refused, then Tywin would have send him back to King's Landing.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Only other possibility I can see is that Aerys allowed Tywin to send Jaime there to patrol the lands, temporarily, until someone else could be sent? I'm just guessing. 

The story with Tysha happened already after Aerys' death. At that time Robert was the King. It happened in 286, the same year when Joffrey was born. Joffrey's birthday is very early in a year, like first or second month of a year. So, most likely, when Jaime went to Casterly Rock, Joffrey was already born. And he was the reason why Jaime needed to be away from King's Landing for some time.

Edited by Megorova

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I get you and really find this "Tysha memory" from Tyrion very strange.

First of all, Tywin seems to be more of a pragmatic guy than a rather cruel one. Yes, intense humiliation could be seen as an effective pragmatic way of giving somebody a lesson, but the way things played out apoints to a sadistic nature. What Tyrion claims he did is above Ramsay's level of cruelty, and was completely unecessary. There are thousands of other cruel ways Tywin could have taught this "lesson" to Tyrion, But there is one thing that's worth note: Tywin made Tyrion fuck her at the end, and pay a golden coin.

But how is that? How can you force a man to rape his own wife? Was there a threat? Maybe he told Tyrion that if he didn't rape her she would die. Still, how can this even be possible? Can someone stand an erection in a situation like this?

All this to say that it seems convenient to Tyrion to claim that he was forced to rape Tysha at the end. We already have evidence that Tyrion distort memories that come with intense emotions (as when recalling Shae, at the Second Son's camp in Meereen), and he seems to never know the number of guys that raped Tysha, alternating from 50 to 100, maybe more, maybe less. Is there something to that memory that was hidden? It wont be the first time that Tyrion recalls something wrong (as when distorting Joffrey's line "send a dog to kill a dog" to "send a dog to kill a wolf").

This seems to be a important subject, since our POV chracters tend to have wrong perceptions of reallity when going thorugh rough events. Catelyn thinking of crows attacking her face at the Red Wedding,  Brienne thinking that Gendry's spear through Bitter's head is acctually his tongue...

 

Anyways, I would love to read more details about this event. 

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