How likely are there other human civilizations and societies on Sothoryos besides the Brindled Men and Corsairs?

[Guest]

Other then the Brindled Men and the Corsairs that lurk in the Basilisk Isles, how likely are there active human societies on Sothoryos that have never been in contact with Essosi, Westerosi, (etc.) outsiders?

[Vaith]

We cannot know for certain, but can speculate. Yeen is a ruined city that has not been accounted for by Essosi colonists, and has that infamous oily black stone.

From what we know so far, it seems like any inhabitants must have died out thousands of years before the series, prior to even the rise of Ghiscar.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Vaith said:

We cannot know for certain, but can speculate. Yeen is a ruined city that has not been accounted for by Essosi colonists, and has that infamous oily black stone.

From what we know so far, it seems like any inhabitants must have died out thousands of years before the series, prior to even the rise of Ghiscar.

Thanks for the response. However, as the books have made it very clear that only a very small percentage of Sothoryos' landmass has been touched upon by outsiders. Even then, due a number of various obstacles (i.e. diseases, inhospitable terrain, hostile native tribes, corsairs, wild predators, etc.), those forays have been brief and fleeting at best. I'm wondering if there are any sort of active societies on the other side of Sothoryos, well out of Westerosi and Essosi reach.

[Vaith]

10 hours ago, Otherdude said:

Thanks for the response. However, as the books have made it very clear that only a very small percentage of Sothoryos' landmass has been touched upon by outsiders. Even then, due a number of various obstacles (i.e. diseases, inhospitable terrain, hostile native tribes, corsairs, wild predators, etc.), those forays have been brief and fleeting at best. I'm wondering if there are any sort of active societies on the other side of Sothoryos, well out of Westerosi and Essosi reach.

Apparently the true "other side" has never been reached by explorers, and that a dragonrider could not find the continent's end for even years: 

Quote

We do not even know the true size of Sothoryos. Qartheen maps once showed it as an island, twice the size of Great Moraq, but their trading ships, venturing farther and farther down the eastern coats, were never able to find the bottom of it. The Ghiscari who settled Zamettar and Gorosh believed Sothoryos to be as large as Westeros. Jaenara Belaerys flew her dragon, Terrax, farther south than any man or woman had ever gone before, seeking the boiling seas and steaming rivers of legend, but found only endless jungle, deserts, and mountains. She returned to the Freehold after three years to declare that Sothoryos was as large as Essos, "a land without end."

So yes, I would say it is possible, but we do not have any evidence to give us a hint either way, like we do not know what is going on in Ulthos, or what lies beyond the Sunset Sea. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

We don't know but the absence of high volume commerce in goods should be a clue.

[Guest]

On 5/9/2020 at 9:31 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

We don't know but the absence of high volume commerce in goods should be a clue.

True, very true indeed. I still wonder what lies in the Jungles and Deserts of Soythoros. I would love to see a Robin Crusoe type novel about a stranded explorer struggling to survive on Soythoros.

[Back door hodor]

Define culture, nothing like the free cities or feudal Westeros but I could see some other uncontacted tribes being there, perhaps even a fairly large agriculture settlement but will probs never see them in the books though 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Back door hodor said:

Define culture, nothing like the free cities or feudal Westeros but I could see some other uncontacted tribes being there, perhaps even a fairly large agriculture settlement but will probs never see them in the books though 

Would something like a Mesoamerican anolog residing on the far off coasts, be out of the question?

[Back door hodor]

No not really,  I've seen calculations that planetos is bigger than earth, who knows what's out there

[Guest]

Just now, Back door hodor said:

No not really,  I've seen calculations that planetos is bigger than earth, who knows what's out there

I'm talking about a Mesoamerican type culture (ie Olmecs, Mayans, etc) residing in Sothyros. Not the landmass itself. Sorry, should have made myself more a bit more clear in my response.

[Back door hodor]

Just now, Otherdude said:

I'm talking about a Mesoamerican type culture (ie Olmecs, Mayans, etc) residing in Sothyros. Not the landmass itself. Sorry, should have made myself more a bit more clear in my response.

You  were clear, sorry if I wasn't. 

Yes, judging especially by the unknown but very large size of sothyros, its possible.

I dont think we will we see or hear of anything else about sothyros on page though, besides what we already know

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 5/11/2020 at 10:08 PM, Otherdude said:

True, very true indeed. I still wonder what lies in the Jungles and Deserts of Soythoros. I would love to see a Robin Crusoe type novel about a stranded explorer struggling to survive on Soythoros.

Sounds like a perfect vocation for Samwell Tarly

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Sounds like a perfect vocation for Samwell Tarly

 

Indeed, just imagine him trying to survive on his own in the wilds of Sothoryos. I would actually pay money for that book.

[Leo of House Cartel]

I'd like to see a Summer Islander like Koja Mo discussing Sothoryos at some in the next to books.

Koja is a sea faring adventurer, from a culture which is noted for holding discovery and learning in high regard, and I think it would be very interesting to hear what the Captain of the Cinnamon Wind would have to say about the mysterious giant continent.

Being somewhat close geographically, I'd imagine there would be many philosophers, scholars, and merchants on the Summer Isles who would have quite interesting opinions and legends regarding Sothoryos.

What might the people of the Isles think when they hear stories associated with Sothoryos like "Yeen being older than time", "tall, clawed lizards who walk like man" and "plagues of bat sized wyvern". Would the threat of physical harm in these stories, and others, be enough to keep the Islanders from wanting to explore places like Yeen or the Green Hell?

There are rumours in TWOIAF that certain explorers from the Isles may have mapped parts of the continent, only to keep these maps secret from the rest of the world. I can certainly imagine there has been at least a few attempts by several inhabitants of Walano, Koj etc. 

Look at how much Asshai and the ruins of Valyria interest people in Essos, with several documented/claimed attempts at exploring/visiting these hellholes appearing in the text; I think it would be odd if the Summer Islanders didnt at least try (and succeed) to find out more about this giant, not too distant land which is surrounded by bonkers stories and apparently uncontested by man.

Considering what we have seen so far with the golden heart bows and swan ships, I wouldn't be too surprised if the Summer Islanders' ingenuity and craftsmanship had helped them to actually build a few successful settlements on coastal (and perhaps inland) areas of southern Sothoryos - Jenara and Terrax have presumably been dead for quite some time now, so the possibility remains that someone else has successfully found the "bottom" of the continent, and built a home upon the land.

[Lady Dacey]

I truly do not know how this is relevant the story, but anyway... I assume in my headcannon that Sothoryos is well populated mostly by peoples who survive either as hunters and gatherers or through the means of small-scale subsistance agriculture with a semi-nomade lifestyle. You know, similar to how peoples lived in Africa and the Americas before Europeans set out to drain us from every last bit of wealth. 

[Werthead]

Sothoryos is consciously GRRM's Africa, just with jungles rather than desert along the north coast. On that basis, Sothoryos is unlikely to be inhabited by any kind of civilisation. Generally speaking, civilisations explore, colonise and engage in trade, and if there's a vast geographic area where this is not happening, it is because there isn't anyone there (hence why no-one bothered travelling to the far south of Africa after an early Phoenician expedition circumnavigated the continent and found no evidence of civilisation in the southern hemisphere at all). It's the same reason why the far eastern coast of Essos is likely completely uninhabited as well: if was inhabited, word would have made its way west, like how the ancient Greeks and Romans knew that China and even Japan were there through intermediary civilisations, even if no-one ever travelled directly there from Rome.

On 5/12/2020 at 3:08 AM, Otherdude said:

True, very true indeed. I still wonder what lies in the Jungles and Deserts of Soythoros. I would love to see a Robin Crusoe type novel about a stranded explorer struggling to survive on Soythoros.

This is a subplot in Fire and Blood. The carrack Lady Meredith, commanded by Ser Eustace Hightower, was part of a three-ship flotilla led by Elissa Farman on the Sun Chaser, part of her attempt to cross the Sunset Sea. After discovering the "Targaryen Islands" south-west of Oldtown, the Sun Chaser continued westwards across the ocean whilst Lady Meredith, damaged in a storm, turned for home, planning to make for Oldtown by way of the Summer Islands. Due to a miscalculation of latitude, they swept past the Summer Islands and made landfall on the north-western coast of Sothoryos.

They were stuck there for a year, trying to effect repairs whilst dealing with the incredibly harsh environment, bugs, disease. They managed to flag down a passing Summer Islander trader, who helped get them back to Westeros. It was, by all accounts, an incredibly unpleasant experience (and twenty years later the Sun Chaser was bafflingly spotted by Corlys Velaryon in the harbour of Asshai).

[Legitimate_Bastard]

On 5/20/2020 at 9:16 PM, Werthead said:

Sothoryos is consciously GRRM's Africa, just with jungles rather than desert along the north coast. On that basis, Sothoryos is unlikely to be inhabited by any kind of civilisation. Generally speaking, civilisations explore, colonise and engage in trade, and if there's a vast geographic area where this is not happening, it is because there isn't anyone there (hence why no-one bothered travelling to the far south of Africa after an early Phoenician expedition circumnavigated the continent and found no evidence of civilisation in the southern hemisphere at all). It's the same reason why the far eastern coast of Essos is likely completely uninhabited as well: if was inhabited, word would have made its way west, like how the ancient Greeks and Romans knew that China and even Japan were there through intermediary civilisations, even if no-one ever travelled directly there from Rome.

This is a subplot in Fire and Blood. The carrack Lady Meredith, commanded by Ser Eustace Hightower, was part of a three-ship flotilla led by Elissa Farman on the Sun Chaser, part of her attempt to cross the Sunset Sea. After discovering the "Targaryen Islands" south-west of Oldtown, the Sun Chaser continued westwards across the ocean whilst Lady Meredith, damaged in a storm, turned for home, planning to make for Oldtown by way of the Summer Islands. Due to a miscalculation of latitude, they swept past the Summer Islands and made landfall on the north-western coast of Sothoryos.

They were stuck there for a year, trying to effect repairs whilst dealing with the incredibly harsh environment, bugs, disease. They managed to flag down a passing Summer Islander trader, who helped get them back to Westeros. It was, by all accounts, an incredibly unpleasant experience (and twenty years later the Sun Chaser was bafflingly spotted by Corlys Velaryon in the harbour of Asshai).

Although I doubt we will see any action take place directly in Sothoryos (I would love if it did), more info is not necessarily out of the question.

Love the nugget from Fire and Blood.

Perhaps it will all come back together with Elissa Farman, Marwyn, Tygett (maybe wrong Lannister bro), Quaithe etc. all having some level of intertwining going on by the end of ADOS. Maybe Dany goes east and all that prophecy comes true.

Makes me wonder.

Assuming that GRRM ever finishes TWOW we might kinda sorta find out!
 

 

[Anthony Appleyard]

On 5/21/2020 at 2:16 AM, Werthead said:

Sothoryos is consciously GRRM's Africa,... (hence why no-one bothered travelling to the far south of Africa after an early Phoenician expedition circumnavigated the continent and found no evidence of civilisation in the southern hemisphere at all). ...

In the real world, Herodotus recorded the Phoenician circumnavigation, and he wrote that to him that expedition's story lost credibility because on returning they reported that the sun went north at midday as they rounded the south end of Africa. (But in June/July 1984 I was 18 nights under a northward-culminating sun in NSW in Australia.) (in Sydney and Coonabarabran)