How much do fAegon and fArya matter?

[frenin]

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

This isn't a private matter of a marriage, it's political matter of who the Westerosi will acclaim as their ruler. There have been male figureheads (like Ronnel Penrose) who let their wives make the important decisions, but Westerosi norms still require that the man be officially in charge.

Doubtful, if the woman is the ruler she indeed rules. There are ruling ladies, regents etc and the men are not officially in charge in those cases.

[QhorinQuarterhand]

12 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

True.

Whether or not Aegon is real is not the big problem here. The big problem is legitimacy.

Aegon could be real but Daenerys can still outrank him. Rhaegar was never crowned. Viserys, on the other hand, was crowned and Daenerys was his named heir....and this all happened publicly. While Aegon was being raised and groomed in the shadows, Viserys and Daenerys were public figures and went to the school of hard knocks. Aegon will win little respect for that.

Isn't Viserys being crowned and Dany being named his heir World Book info? If so, that isn't canon.

https://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/thread/171/canon-level-app-spake-martin?page=1#post-4864

Other than that, power will decide what happens if Dany and Aegon clash. Would either step aside even with 100% proof that the other has the better claim? I doubt it. Power wins and holds the Iron Throne. Who has the best Targaryen claim, or who is most legitimate, matters not if they don't have the ability to enforce that claim. 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Isn't Viserys being crowned and Dany being named his heir World Book info? If so, that isn't canon.

No, TWoIaF merely confirms that Viserys was Aerys II chosen and anointed heir after Rhaegar's death. That Viserys III was crowned on Dragonstone we know from the books themselves just as we know that he made Dany his Heir Apparent. She is repeatedly styled 'Princess of Dragonstone' in AGoT.

8 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

https://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/thread/171/canon-level-app-spake-martin?page=1#post-4864

Other than that, power will decide what happens if Dany and Aegon clash. Would either step aside even with 100% proof that the other has the better claim? I doubt it. Power wins and holds the Iron Throne. Who has the best Targaryen claim, or who is most legitimate, matters not if they don't have the ability to enforce that claim. 

Dany being female certainly will be an issue, but Aegon pretends to be prince the world thinks is dead. His very identity is unclear, and he doesn't have any dragons. Both facts will count heavily against him as soon as he shows any weakness.

And if Dany can make the Dothraki forget that a khal has to be male and a khaleesi cannot have bloodriders she sure as hell can make the Westerosi forget that they do not want female rulers as well ... especially in light of the fact that half the Realm back Queen Rhaenyra against the usurper Aegon II, anyway.

[BlackLightning]

10 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Isn't Viserys being crowned and Dany being named his heir World Book info? If so, that isn't canon.

https://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/thread/171/canon-level-app-spake-martin?page=1#post-4864

Other than that, power will decide what happens if Dany and Aegon clash. Would either step aside even with 100% proof that the other has the better claim? I doubt it. Power wins and holds the Iron Throne. Who has the best Targaryen claim, or who is most legitimate, matters not if they don't have the ability to enforce that claim. 

It is in the World Book. But it's also in the actual series. Viserys was crowned on Dragonstone and Daenerys was named his heir. That's been confirmed.

What still hasn't been confirmed is whether or not King Aerys II disinherited Rhaegar and Aegon in favor of Viserys. If he did, then the Iron Throne belongs to Daenerys. Granted, Daenerys' claim will be unfairly questioned on the basis of her sex and that stupid, wildly problematic Iron Precedent but at least she won't have to add usurper to her rap-sheet.

Also, if Rhaegar had named Jon his heir instead of Aegon (which would be a massive mistake that would likely have made Dorne secede and/or declare war against the Seven Kingdoms but Rhaegar seems to be that kind of guy anyways) and if the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy recognized it, then the Iron Throne belongs to Jon. Of course, that's quite a stretch seeing as Jon Snow is and has been the best kept secret in the entire world. But all of that is to be swept away "if" (re: when) Dany and Jon are married. They would make two separate but nonetheless hefty claims into one united but considerably stronger claim.

Aegon would have a hard time standing against that union, be he real or fake.

It's all a bit convoluted and conditional but I'm pretty sure that GRRM did that on purpose.

[frenin]

35 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Also, if Rhaegar had named Jon his heir instead of Aegon (which would be a massive mistake that would likely have made Dorne secede and/or declare war against the Seven Kingdoms but Rhaegar seems to be that kind of guy anyways) and if the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy recognized it, then the Iron Throne belongs to Jon. Of course, that's quite a stretch seeing as Jon Snow is and has been the best kept secret in the entire world. But all of that is to be swept away "if" (re: when) Dany and Jon are married. They would make two separate but nonetheless hefty claims into one united but considerably stronger claim.

Rhaegar has no power to name anyone as his heir, unless he went by King Rhaegar and we are unawared of it. Besides, the ramblings of a mad guy are not going to be taken seriously by anyone. 

For the majority, the direct male heir of the senior line  trumps everything. Dany will have to fight that with her dragons. Aegon's legitimacy and claim, simply trumps any Targ contender.

[Darth Sidious]

22 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The first-placed direct male line descendant inherits, which would be Aegon. This is complicated by Aerys naming Viserys heir ahead of Aegon, but he didn't name Daenerys as heir. Daenerys' status as Viserys' heir depended on the assumption that Aegon was dead, and a reveal that it wasn't the case (like when Viserys II was discovered, or if people knew Bran & Rickon were still alive) would change that.

Under normal circumstances in which both claimants are equal.  They are not equal in this case.  Queen Daenerys has the modern equivalent of a DNA test to prove her claim.  And she has done what no other Targaryen has been able to do.  Resurrect the dragons.  Viserys was crowned and it had nothing to do with whether Aegon lived or died.  Viserys was crowned because Rhaella placed the crown on his head and made him king on that day in Dragonstone.  The line of succession passed to the now King Viserys III.  King Aerys II chose Prince Viserys to be his successor.  That was the reason why he sent him to Dragonstone.  Meanwhile, he kept Elia and her children, all of her children, at the Red Keep.  He was willing to put Elia and her children in danger.  Only Elia was necessary to ensure Martell support.  But he kept the whole family in the city.  He was willing to put them at risk.  He was not willing to put Prince Viserys at risk.  His intent is clear.  And yes, his intent counts heavily because he is the most recent of the Targaryen kings to sit the iron throne.  His Will carries more weight than say the will of Robb Stark.  

[frenin]

16 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Under normal circumstances in which both claimants are equal.  They are not equal in this case.  Queen Daenerys has the modern equivalent of a DNA test to prove her claim.  And she has done what no other Targaryen has been able to do.  Resurrect the dragons. 

True, at the end of the day dragons are the ultimate legitmacy symbol.

 

17 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

His intent is clear.  And yes, his intent counts heavily because he is the most recent of the Targaryen kings to sit the iron throne.  His Will carries more weight than say the will of Robb Stark.  

People love and respect Robb, which is why people may consider his will for a little. Robb is not the Mad King, no one is going to give a damn about his last actions, why would they?? The nobility despises and rejects the man. Aegon is the senior Targ which is the trump card until dragons came at play.

What Rhaella did once the Targs were almost extinct is irrelevant too, a king without kingdom, without crown, is no king at all.

 

 

[FictionIsntReal]

17 hours ago, frenin said:

No, but people can do basic maths can't they?? JonCon was with no child during a part of his time Essos, certainly not when he was a sellsword.

Is it public knowledge whether he was with a child?

16 hours ago, frenin said:

Doubtful, if the woman is the ruler she indeed rules. There are ruling ladies, regents etc and the men are not officially in charge in those cases.

There have been cases of ruling ladies below the level of the Iron Throne, but even in the case of the North where there isn't an explicit rule like the Targaryens developed, they never had one.

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But all of that is to be swept away "if" (re: when) Dany and Jon are married

I don't place much stock in the theory that they'll marry. Aside from it not happening in the show, there's so much that needs to happen in the books, the threat from the Others will be important enough to put off a wedding by the time Dany allies with Jon, and a "bittersweet ending" is less likely with the two as a married couple.

[frenin]

1 minute ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Is it public knowledge whether he was with a child?

It should be, the man should have spies around him, especially after joining the GC.

 

2 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There have been cases of ruling ladies below the level of the Iron Throne, but even in the case of the North where there isn't an explicit rule like the Targaryens developed, they never had one.

Well, Lady Dustin is certainly a ruling lady, i think you mean the Starks, yes the Starks have never had a ruling lady, we don't really know why, regardless ruling ladies are not unheard of and Dany has the symbol of legitimac with her dragons.

It's not like she is going to ask anyway, we know Aegon didn't, most of the conquerors, you're confusing conqueror, with tyrant, the moment Dany starts acting like Maegor or Joffrey we can start making bets about who is going to off her first. 

 

[BlackLightning]

Just now, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't place much stock in the theory that they'll marry. Aside from it not happening in the show, there's so much that needs to happen in the books, the threat from the Others will be important enough to put off a wedding by the time Dany allies with Jon, and a "bittersweet ending" is less likely with the two as a married couple.

Why would they not marry?

Political and martial sensibilities demand that they do. He is a powerful young man, she is a powerful young woman and together they'll be even more powerful. They will have to join their forces. Dany (if she wants to take the Iron Throne) would probably like to have the North as part of the realm and the northerners will be a bit cagey towards outsiders understandably. Jon needs the food and fresh men she will bring in addition to the obsidian and dragons. Plus, Jon is just her type. 

If Tywin the political genius that he was felt that a double marriage between the Lannisters military machine and the Tyrell military machine was necessary, then why would a Targaryen-Stark not be necessary. If Daven Lannister and Roose Bolton felt that it was good sense to take women of House Frey as wife...if Littlefinger thinks it necessary to marry Sansa into a powerful Vale family....if Jon felt like Alys Karstark's best bet was to marry her to a Thenn...

There is little need for Arianne to marry Aegon but the two might do it anyways. It strengthens Aegon's claim and it further binds the two together.

Marriage is serious business in this world. GRRM would be breaking his own rules if the two weren't married before the end of Dream.

I see it happening before everyone realizing who Jon really is.

[BlackLightning]

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

It should be, the man should have spies around him, especially after joining the GC.

 

Well, Lady Dustin is certainly a ruling lady, i think you mean the Starks, yes the Starks have never had a ruling lady, we don't really know why, regardless ruling ladies are not unheard of and Dany has the symbol of legitimac with her dragons.

It's not like she is going to ask anyway, we know Aegon didn't, most of the conquerors, you're confusing conqueror, with tyrant, the moment Dany starts acting like Maegor or Joffrey we can start making bets about who is going to off her first. 

 

Lady Hornwood and Lady Mormont were also ruling ladies.

I'd be shocked if the realm of the North never had a female Stark acting as regent over the last 10,000 years

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Why would they not marry?

There are a lot of ifs that have to happen before, chiefly Jon is made king and remains unmarried before Dany appears.

 

5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Political and martial sensibilities demand that they do. He is a powerful young man, she is a powerful young woman and together they'll be even more powerful. They will have to join their forces. Dany (if she wants to take the Iron Throne) would probably like to have the North as part of the realm and the northerners will be a bit cagey towards outsiders understandably. Jon needs the food and fresh men she will bring in addition to the obsidian and dragons. Plus, Jon is just her type. 

They don't really demand anything, alliances can be made without marriages, especially if the enemy are the Others, She can win the North exactly as Aegon did. And ofc  this is under the Jon is king scenario.

 

8 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

If Tywin the political genius that he was felt that a double marriage between the Lannisters military machine and the Tyrell military machine was necessary, then why would a Targaryen-Stark not be necessary. If Daven Lannister and Roose Bolton felt that it was good sense to take women of House Frey as wife...if Littlefinger thinks it necessary to marry Sansa into a powerful Vale family....if Jon felt like Alys Karstark's best bet was to marry her to a Thenn...

Well, because those ties were made  between persons that didn't really trust each other and wanted to secure it as much as possible, besides "political genius" is a bit too much.

 

8 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I'd be shocked if the realm of the North never had a female Stark acting as regent over the last 10,000 years

But regent is not really the same as lord or King.

[Nevets]

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2020 at 4:06 PM, BlackLightning said:

This is not true.

Catelyn knows. The entire Brotherhood without Banners knows. Brienne knows. Podrick knows. Ser Hyle Hunt knows. Lady Smallwood knows. A bunch of smallfolk in the Riverlands know because they've seen Arya for themselves at times when fArya was being held in captivity in the Riverlands. The Elder Brother also knows. The Hound -- aka the Gravedigger -- knows. A bunch of the Freys know. Cersei knows. Varys knows. Tyrion knows. Kevan knows (or should I say, they knew). The kindly man knows. Littlefinger knows. Mace Tyrell knows.

Maege Mormont, Howland Reed and Galbart Glover also have good reason to suspect that fArya is fake as does Jason Mallister. The waif might even know the truth. Stannis, Asha and the rest of the Baratheon camp are a chapter away from figuring it all out.

Besides, I don't know about the other lords, Wyman Manderly and Barbrey Dustin were not born yesterday. They know what the previous generation of Starks looked like and the Arya they knew looks like all of them (especially Lyanna). Arya has grey eyes whereas Jeyne has brown eyes. That is specifically the first thing Theon notices and Theon is basically mentally ill at that point. You think Barbrey Dustin wouldn't notice? Not only does Jeyne not have the trademark grey eyes of House Stark, she looks nothing like Lyanna Stark or Ned Stark.

Come on now. It's hardly a secret anymore because the better question is who doesn't know that fArya is an impostor. 

This isn't really accurate.  The Brotherhood knows she was in the Riverlands, but don't know what happened to her after the Hound took her.  For all they know he turned her over to the Lannisters, who gave her to the Boltons.  And that's even if they know that there is an Arya at Winterfell, which is far from certain.

As to the North, nobody has seen her in over 2 years, and those who knew her much at all are imprisoned at the Dreadfort, if they are even alive.  Everybody else probably has only a vague idea of what she looks like.  It's not as if they have pictures or detailed descriptions and those who did see her probably only did so briefly.  And being the younger daughter, probably didn't pay much attention to her. 

The bigger threat is that somebody will recognize Jeyne Poole, but even that is uncertain.   Essentially, GRRM has left the door open to either option; that her identity is known, or that it isn't.  As for Stannis's camp, unless somebody recognized her, or someone from the Bolton camp tells them, I don't see how they would find out.  Theon isn't telling, and neither is Jeyne.

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

This isn't really accurate.  The Brotherhood knows she was in the Riverlands, but don't know what happened to her after the Hound took her.  For all they know he turned her over to the Lannisters, who gave her to the Boltons.  And that's even if they know that there is an Arya at Winterfell, which is far from certain.

As to the North, nobody has seen her in over 2 years, and those who knew her much at all are imprisoned at the Dreadfort, if they are even alive.  Everybody else probably has only a vague idea of what she looks like.  It's not as if they have pictures or detailed descriptions and those who did see her probably only did so briefly.  And being the younger daughter, probably didn't pay much attention to her. 

The bigger threat is that somebody will recognize Jeyne Poole, but even that is uncertain.   Essentially, GRRM has left the door open to either option; that her identity is known, or that it isn't.  As for Stannis's camp, unless somebody recognized her, or someone from the Bolton camp tells them, I don't see how they would find out.  Theon isn't telling, and neither is Jeyne.

It is accurate. The timelines don't add up.

The Lannisters have been falsely reporting that Arya has been in their custody since Ned Stark's execution. After their initial report, no one hears a single thing about Arya. By the end of their lives, neither Catelyn nor Robb really believe that to be true anymore. The Brotherhood knows that it is not true because they know Arya's story. It is known that the Hound never made to it to King's Landing because it would've been a very newsworthy episode. What did make the news was the fact that "the Hound" was in Saltpans.

If the Hound took Arya and never made it to King's Landing, why would Arya be in King's Landing? She made it no secret that King's Landing was the last place on Earth that she'd want to be--she wouldn't go there by herself. Who captured her?

If something happened to the Hound that prevented him from taking Arya to King's Landing, why is he then able to terrorize Saltpans? With imputiny?

Arya's marriage to the newly legitimized Ramsay Bolton is announced before (or approximately the same time) the Hound raids Saltpans. Logic would dictate that if the Iron Throne now has Arya in their custody, then they should have the Hound in their custody given that he is an attained fugitive. Tywin Lannister is not so sloppy.

Catelyn also knows that Arya had already been betrothed to a Frey. The Iron Throne likely didn't know about such; if they did, they would simply honor that betrothal as opposed to breaking it. What sense would breaking the betrothal make? Especially since they already have Sansa.

When you know all of that, it doesn't even take much investigative work to figure out that Arya was seen at the Inn at the Crossroads recently and again at Saltpans before the town had been raided.

The Hound is also very recognizable and Arya was no longer really hiding the fact that she was a girl when she is kidnapped by the Hound. It wouldn't be too hard to give people a description of the Hound and ask him if he's been seen with a girl. Which has had repeatedly. 

Catelyn doesn't all seem bothered by the fact that Arya is with the Boltons at Winterfell. Which is weird because if it were truly Arya, Catelyn would find a way to get to her. But no. She's more concerned with finding Arya and her search is concentrated in the Riverlands. Notice how Gendry was strategically placed at the Inn at the Crossroads? Notice how the Inn had become something of a orphanage?

The Brotherhood knows that Arya Bolton is a fake.

[Nevets]

30 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

It is accurate. The timelines don't add up.

The Lannisters have been falsely reporting that Arya has been in their custody since Ned Stark's execution. After their initial report, no one hears a single thing about Arya. By the end of their lives, neither Catelyn nor Robb really believe that to be true anymore. The Brotherhood knows that it is not true because they know Arya's story. It is known that the Hound never made to it to King's Landing because it would've been a very newsworthy episode. What did make the news was the fact that "the Hound" was in Saltpans.

If the Hound took Arya and never made it to King's Landing, why would Arya be in King's Landing? She made it no secret that King's Landing was the last place on Earth that she'd want to be--she wouldn't go there by herself. Who captured her?

If something happened to the Hound that prevented him from taking Arya to King's Landing, why is he then able to terrorize Saltpans? With imputiny?

Arya's marriage to the newly legitimized Ramsay Bolton is announced before (or approximately the same time) the Hound raids Saltpans. Logic would dictate that if the Iron Throne now has Arya in their custody, then they should have the Hound in their custody given that he is an attained fugitive. Tywin Lannister is not so sloppy.

Catelyn also knows that Arya had already been betrothed to a Frey. The Iron Throne likely didn't know about such; if they did, they would simply honor that betrothal as opposed to breaking it. What sense would breaking the betrothal make? Especially since they already have Sansa.

When you know all of that, it doesn't even take much investigative work to figure out that Arya was seen at the Inn at the Crossroads recently and again at Saltpans before the town had been raided.

The Hound is also very recognizable and Arya was no longer really hiding the fact that she was a girl when she is kidnapped by the Hound. It wouldn't be too hard to give people a description of the Hound and ask him if he's been seen with a girl. Which has had repeatedly. 

Catelyn doesn't all seem bothered by the fact that Arya is with the Boltons at Winterfell. Which is weird because if it were truly Arya, Catelyn would find a way to get to her. But no. She's more concerned with finding Arya and her search is concentrated in the Riverlands. Notice how Gendry was strategically placed at the Inn at the Crossroads? Notice how the Inn had become something of a orphanage?

The Brotherhood knows that Arya Bolton is a fake.

What the Brotherhood knows or doesn't know is essentially irrelevant.  They are a long ways from Winterfell and not likely to be telling anyone that matters, assuming they even know that Arya Bolton even exists, which isn't certain. 

It's what the North knows that is important.  And on that, there is no clear evidence one way or the other.  Some may know, or not.  It certainly isn't clear that her fraudulence is generally known.  GRRM could write it either way.    In any event, there is no way for Stannis's camp to know. 

[BlackLightning]

6 minutes ago, Nevets said:

What the Brotherhood knows or doesn't know is essentially irrelevant.  They are a long ways from Winterfell and not likely to be telling anyone that matters, assuming they even know that Arya Bolton even exists, which isn't certain. 

It's what the North knows that is important.  And on that, there is no clear evidence one way or the other.  Some may know, or not.  It certainly isn't clear that her fraudulence is generally known.  GRRM could write it either way.    In any event, there is no way for Stannis's camp to know. 

No way?

You forget about Theon? You not considering the very high likelihood that Stannis will take prisoners and question them? Jon won't be dead forever and Sansa is perfectly positioned to both find out the truth and leak information.

You never also addressed how I pointed out the fact that Catelyn is actually looking for Arya. fArya is no secret and Lady Stoneheart seems to have some pretty good sources. Why would she be wasting resources looking for Arya if she really believed that Arya was in Winterfell? The natural, logical conclusion would mean that Cat would either make it her mission to start with the Boltons and then get the Freys/Lannisters later...or that she would postpone her vengeance on House Bolton in favor of eliminating the Freys and the Lannisters first.

[QhorinQuarterhand]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, TWoIaF merely confirms that Viserys was Aerys II chosen and anointed heir after Rhaegar's death. That Viserys III was crowned on Dragonstone we know from the books themselves just as we know that he made Dany his Heir Apparent. She is repeatedly styled 'Princess of Dragonstone' in AGoT.

Dany being female certainly will be an issue, but Aegon pretends to be prince the world thinks is dead. His very identity is unclear, and he doesn't have any dragons. Both facts will count heavily against him as soon as he shows any weakness.

And if Dany can make the Dothraki forget that a khal has to be male and a khaleesi cannot have bloodriders she sure as hell can make the Westerosi forget that they do not want female rulers as well ... especially in light of the fact that half the Realm back Queen Rhaenyra against the usurper Aegon II, anyway.

Thank you. I'll have to hunt down that quote.

It seems Aegon's best chance is to gather as many supporters as possible before Dany gets to Westeros. Then offer her an alliance. This would leave Dany with the choice of fighting much of the realm she wants to rule, after they've offered alliance, or to share rule with Aegon. 

I think Dany being a foreigner with a foreign army is her biggest obstacle to ruling in Westeros. Those optics are much worse than her being a woman.

Edit: The Wiki led me to AGOT Dany I where it does not mention Viserys being crowned. A search through AGOT turned up no Viserys results for "crowned". Would you be kind enough to find the quote? 

[QhorinQuarterhand]

13 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It is in the World Book. But it's also in the actual series. Viserys was crowned on Dragonstone and Daenerys was named his heir. That's been confirmed.

What still hasn't been confirmed is whether or not King Aerys II disinherited Rhaegar and Aegon in favor of Viserys. If he did, then the Iron Throne belongs to Daenerys. Granted, Daenerys' claim will be unfairly questioned on the basis of her sex and that stupid, wildly problematic Iron Precedent but at least she won't have to add usurper to her rap-sheet.

Also, if Rhaegar had named Jon his heir instead of Aegon (which would be a massive mistake that would likely have made Dorne secede and/or declare war against the Seven Kingdoms but Rhaegar seems to be that kind of guy anyways) and if the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy recognized it, then the Iron Throne belongs to Jon. Of course, that's quite a stretch seeing as Jon Snow is and has been the best kept secret in the entire world. But all of that is to be swept away "if" (re: when) Dany and Jon are married. They would make two separate but nonetheless hefty claims into one united but considerably stronger claim.

Aegon would have a hard time standing against that union, be he real or fake.

It's all a bit convoluted and conditional but I'm pretty sure that GRRM did that on purpose.

Can you find the quote from AGOT-ADWD that says Viserys was crowned? 

Where do the Books even hint that Rhaegar and Aegon were disinherited in favor of Viserys? 

Why would Rhaegar name Jon his heir? Is there some confirmation of parentage somewhere that I am missing? What does the opinions of the Kingsguard at the tower of joy have to do with Jon? 

What makes Jon Snow the best kept secret in the world? What makes you so sure Jon and Dany will marry?

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

It seems Aegon's best chance is to gather as many supporters as possible before Dany gets to Westeros. Then offer her an alliance. This would leave Dany with the choice of fighting much of the realm she wants to rule, after they've offered alliance, or to share rule with Aegon.

Sure, but things are likely going to set up in a way that Aegon no longer wants to marry Dany or share his rule with her by the time she arrives - because he will marry while everybody in Westeros believes she is dead (and before that they will learn that she married some Meereenese, which would be interpreted as her deciding never to go to Westeros).

3 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

I think Dany being a foreigner with a foreign army is her biggest obstacle to ruling in Westeros. Those optics are much worse than her being a woman.

That is going to be an obstacle, but how problematic it will be is going to depend on how successful a ruler/savior Aegon is going to be. Without dragons and without any proof that he truly is Rhaegar's son he might face a lot of problems of his own even if he very quickly takes the throne.

3 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Edit: The Wiki led me to AGOT Dany I where it does not mention Viserys being crowned. A search through AGOT turned up no Viserys results for "crowned". Would you be kind enough to find the quote? 

The confirmation that Viserys III was crowned on Dragonstone comes from the app, I think. But that he was crowned/proclaimed king is confirmed by the simple fact that he is seen as a (pretender) king by both his followers as well as his enemies. Unlike Prince Aegon - who is still a prince in exile despite the fact that his followers see him as 'the rightful heir' - Viserys III is seen as the king. And that only happens when you are proclaimed and/or crowned king - which in Viserys' case was done by his mother Rhaella on Dragonstone with her own crown after their learned that King Aerys II was dead.

Aerys II named a new heir after the death of Rhaegar, picking his second son Viserys over his infant grandson Aegon. Whether he did that simply because Viserys was much older than Aegon, or because Aegon was half-Dornish and he thought the Dornish betrayed Rhaegar at the Trident and he intended to use Elia and the children as hostages against Doran is unclear. The fact remains that he did that, meaning that if you are a Targaryen loyalist you would see Viserys III as the rightful and chosen successor of Aerys II.

Daenerys was then named and anointed Princess of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne by Viserys III in exile - else they wouldn't have styled Dany 'Princess of Dragonstone' in Pentos.

Aegon and his followers could claim Viserys III would have considered Aegon his true heir had he known Aegon was alive. He would have then not named Dany his heir. But they cannot claim that Aegon was the rightful heir to the throne after Aerys II died, because Aerys II himself had named Viserys his heir, not Aegon. And this happened at a time when Aegon and Rhaenys were both still alive.

It is to be expected that Dany is not only going to claim - on good grounds, most likely - that Aegon is not Rhaegar's son when she challenges his claim but also that her royal father named his son Viserys III his heir, and Viserys III, in turn, her, so she doesn't simply lay claim to the Iron Throne as the last scion of House Targaryen but also because her father and brother, the last Targaryen kings, wanted her to succeed them.

[frenin]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact remains that he did that, meaning that if you are a Targaryen loyalist you would see Viserys III as the rightful and chosen successor of Aerys II.

Doubtful, Rhaegar's heir sounds better than the Mad King's heir, in every Targ loyalist every day of the year, winter or summer. Barristan don't call Viserys king and "Beggar King" is a peyorative title rather than a sort of acknowledgement, the only one that has called him king seriously is Dany.