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Alyn Oakenfist

How much do fAegon and fArya matter?

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6 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

George himself literally said WB isn't canon. You can play pretend all you want with yourself, but it becomes a lie when you go around telling other fans things are canon when they are not. 

From NotABlog: George "only the books are canon"

https://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/thread/171/canon-level-app-spake-martin?page=1#post-4864

George called the WB "semi-canon". He calls it semi-canon because it was written by Maesters, that either got things wrong  or made omissions. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course I can. It depends what you want to talk about. George doesn't have some sort of weird canon system going on like proper franchises written by many people.

The way we treat things in the fandom is that everything published by George is canon, which includes FaB and TWoIaF, although one can expect greater discrepancies in the latter since it has been edited and condensed and rewritten in certain points by Ran and Linda. But that doesn't mean a book published by George R. R. Martin doesn't make up the canon of his published work. Just as it makes no sense to pretend things that are revisited and repeated and elaborated in TWoIaF which we also hear about in the book series are somehow 'not true' because they are mentioned there.

George made it clear that not everything in TWoIaF is accurate - but that's not really an issue that's true for that book but every POV character and his wrong memories and beliefs, too. He just seemed to wanted to stress the fact one should not take every theory put forth in TWoIaF as fact - which no smart reader would do, anyway.

You can go on making up whatever you want. But you are a liar for going around telling people something is canon when GRRM said over 4 years ago that it isn't. "The fandom" deciding to ignore George's own words doesn't mean anything other than they have placed their own head canon over George's actual canon. 

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44 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

George called the WB "semi-canon". He calls it semi-canon because it was written by Maesters, that either got things wrong  or made omissions. 

He calls it semi-canon because according to him it isn't canon. Otherwise he would simply say it is canon. He doesn't do that. He calls it semi-canon. Because it isn't canon. 

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He says its semi-canon because the maesters can outright lie or misinterpret or exaggerate things. It's not hard to understand.

It's the app that isn't canon. It's information should not be used in the wiki imo.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, R2D said:

He says its semi-canon because the maesters can outright lie or misinterpret or exaggerate things. It's not hard to understand.

It's the app that isn't canon. It's information should not be used in the wiki imo.

Yeah, as I said, George seems to confuse 'canon' with true here. Usually, 'canon' refers to all stuff that's official and part of a franchise/fictional world, whereas 'semi-canon' or 'non-canon' is stuff that's not (completely) official.

TWoIaF and FaB are both official and canon in the sense they were published by George. They are not entirely accurate since some of the stuff in there is wrong or not the whole truth, but that doesn't change the fact that Westerosi maesters wrote the stuff and the information in there is accurate where it is not wrong.

In certain places those texts even superseded the novels - ADwD claimed that Maron Martell's wife was the first Daenerys (which FaB debunked), TWoIaF corrected ACoK where Jeor Mormont claimed that King Aerys I was married to his sister when in fact Aelinor Penrose was merely his cousin.

Edited by Lord Varys

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, as I said, George seems to confuse 'canon' with true here. Usually, 'canon' refers to all stuff that's official and part of a franchise/fictional world, whereas 'semi-canon' or 'non-canon' is stuff that's not official.

TWoIaF and FaB are both official and canon in the sense they were published by George. They are not entirely accurate since some of the stuff in there is wrong or not the whole truth, but that doesn't change the fact that Westerosi maesters wrote the stuff and the information in there is accurate where it is not wrong.

In certain places those texts even superseded the novels - ADwD claimed that Maron Martell's wife was the first Daenerys (which FaB debunked), TWoIaF corrected ACoK where Jeor Mormont claimed that King Aerys I was married to his sister when in fact Aelinor Penrose was merely his cousin.

Wait who was Maron Martell's wife then?

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1 minute ago, R2D said:

Wait who was Maron Martell's wife then?

Also Daenerys - but the first Daenerys in known history was the second child and firstborn daughter of Jaehaerys and Alysanne who didn't exist back in the TWoIaF family tree and also not yet when George wrote ADwD and referred to her as 'the first Daenerys'.

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On 5/19/2020 at 11:13 PM, Lord Varys said:

There are no widespread rumors - there is an ambitious uncle telling tales that profit him.

Stannis did successfully spread the rumors wide.

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All the Realm knew and believed they were royal children

Not all the realm (there was actually relatively little of the realm providing any support to the Throne during the war of the five kings). Cersei was quite afraid of the rumors, and the High Sparrow held off for a while on coronating Tommen on the grounds that he was unsure if Tommen was the rightful king.

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You might not, I on the other do read between the lines. Strickland doesn't buy the Rhaegar story. He wants Dany to have a claimant of substance.

Harry wanting Dany as part of the plan is entirely explainable by him being cautious and pragmatic. He denies personal responsibility for the plan (which dated back to Myles Toyne), but the absence of Dany means he can't follow the letter of it. He complains about them losing out on new contracts, as well as for the potential reputational damage of giving up on a second broken contract (admittedly, Gorys Edoryen was proposing a relatively egregious premeditated betrayal even if they paid back the money). The other serjeants who vote against him don't seem to be more convinced of Aegon's legitimacy, they're just more willing to gamble on an invasion and less invested in the GC continuing as the top Essosi mercenary company.

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Reread the books. Selmy presumed to assess Dany's mental health by his own criteria before choosing her as his monarch.

He hadn't done that for anyone on the Iron Throne, he served them regardless. He does this for Dany after he's dismissed and no longer has the option of just continuing as a KG.

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LOL, right, he lived like a pampered little prince with a coterie of followers. It was a modest life of privilege but a life of privilege nonetheless.

I made the comparison to Egg, who was regarded as "half a peasant". Egg had a royal family still alive, and he could reveal the signet ring in his boot if he needed to use his royal pull. Young Griff doesn't have that. He's essentially an experiment by Varys to raise a king with the educational requirements for kingship but without the other privileges.

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Nonsense. Daeron I lost his war

He had nothing but success in the field. He was murdered by people suing for peace, a desperate move only explicable under the belief that they couldn't beat him while he lived (Tywin Lannister at least could fob off responsibility to Walder Frey).

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contributed nothing to the union between Dorne and the Iron Throne

Dorne had been fighting its neighbors for centuries, even after Aegon and his dragons took the other kingdoms. The Martell motto is "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken" but they surrendered to Daeron. Don't tell me that without Daeron the kingdoms would have somehow been unified by Baelor.

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While Strickland still commands the Golden Company he still commands the Golden Company.

Tautologies are tautologous. He opposed invading the Stormlands, but they did it anyway.

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Because they stupidly listened

They'd already broken one contract for bigger stakes, Meereen was blocked off and innaccessible for their army (unless they went with a plan like Gorys' to really torch their reputation), and Cersei's regime was falling apart even without their help. It was a risk, but far less of one than the GC had taken before.

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LOL, that is a nonsensical question.

You saying it's ridiculous doesn't make it so. We don't hear of many errors he made in his strategy, just that he was assassinated in bed.

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Of course, we have to wait for him to fuck things up. I don't say it is going to start soon.

Rolly himself could constitute a "fuck up", hence it already started.

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and finally has to do some ruling

I don't think he's going to have time for much other than a military campaign. GRRM has written on the difficulties of ruling (even if he wasn't giving us the equivalent of Aragorn's tax policy), and Young Griff's not getting a bunch of Cersei-esque POV chapters.

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I meant how Joff appears at first glance when you meet him

How many chapters was it before he started abusing peasants? And even before then he was getting along terribly with his brother-in-law to-be.

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He is clearly no Joffrey, but we don't know that he is a great guy, either.

I would say that he's a youthful idealist, with the positives and negatives that implies.

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Go along and wait whether Aegon dies of old age

Considering how much the characters have aged over the course of five books vs how much GRRM expected they would over three, I'm not holding my breath for anyone to age.

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Euron is only developing his magical skills right now

What makes you say that? He's more than 30 years old and claims his supernatural aspirations went back to childhood. Asha also claim he used to argue with Balon about magic all the time.

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If he has skinchanger/greeneer abilities then murdering people from very far away should be very easy. Just use a dog or a horse to kill him.

We know the Stark children have such abilities. But they haven't assassinated anyone with them. Arya instead ordered assassinations via a Faceless Man.

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Because if you look at the time line it is pretty much impossible that Euron sailed from wherever he caught Pyat Pree, to Braavos, and then to Pyke to be there in time for Balon to die.

We don't know when he would have hired the Faceless Man, but if the man also has to travel from Braavos to Pyke, Euron should be able to arrange to arrive shortly afterward.

On 5/20/2020 at 1:35 AM, frenin said:

No, but exiled lords with kids in the Golden Company is notorious enough, there is a reasin to keep an eye on JonCon tho.

Who was going to be "keeping an eye on" him? Varys. And he's not a notable enough figure that gossip about a kid (and members of the GC have had kids who succeeded them) being with him would be a big deal.

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Indeed.

Oh, when I say it you respond starting with "No" but the exact same quote from Varys gets "Indeed"? :) I'd be curious to know what you intended to quote and agree with him on.

On 5/20/2020 at 9:27 AM, Lord Varys said:

And I said that there is stuff that's wrong in the novels, too? I mean, are you doubting the canon status of AGoT because multiple people claim the Lannisters tried to murder Bran and did murder Jon Arryn?

I thought the "stuff that's wrong" in AGoT was things like Renly's eye color. Characters saying incorrect things (or even Sansa misremembering something) has nothing to do with being canonical, GRRM decides that himself.

On 5/20/2020 at 10:53 AM, Lord Varys said:

George doesn't have some sort of weird canon system going on like proper franchises written by many people.

What "proper franchises"? And does GRRM's "canon system" need to be "weird" rather than him just saying certain works are canon and others aren't?

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8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Who was going to be "keeping an eye on" him? Varys. And he's not a notable enough figure that gossip about a kid (and members of the GC have had kids who succeeded them) being with him would be a big deal.

True about the first. But him joining the GC should be known enough.

He is a notable figure tho, a very powerful lord and a die hard Targ partisan, that's enough for the gossips to start.

 

 

8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

, when I say it you respond starting with "No" but the exact same quote from Varys gets "Indeed"? :) I'd be curious to know what you intended to quote and agree with him on.

Say what?? Aegon did grow pampered and surrounded by a little court. It's not like he lived like Dany and Viserys after Darry died.

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, frenin said:

True about the first. But him joining the GC should be known enough.

Him joining the GC is known. The story spread is that he got caught trying to steal from them, then went off and drank himself to death.

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Say what??

You quoted me about the definition of "tyrant", and disagreed, then you had the exact same quote attributed to Lord Varys and said "Indeed".

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On 5/9/2020 at 11:02 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I don't think Dany can reveal anything. His identity is forever going to be a bit shrouded in mystery, but I think in the end we will never know. Regardless Dany will have no proof.

The burden of proof is not on Daenerys to have  to prove anything.  Aegon or Griff, whatever his name, will be the one under pressure to prove who he is.  Daenerys has the right look as well as the dragons.  She has Barristan Selmy to back her claim. 

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On 5/23/2020 at 1:35 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

Him joining the GC is known. The story spread is that he got caught trying to steal from them, then went off and drank himself to death.

But not that he had any kid.

 

On 5/23/2020 at 1:35 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

You quoted me about the definition of "tyrant", and disagreed, then you had the exact same quote attributed to Lord Varys and said "Indeed".

I quites the part in which he said that Aegon had always had a minicourt around him.

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On 5/25/2020 at 7:20 PM, frenin said:

But not that he had any kid.

Varys was in charge of spies and could filter out talk about a kid. And if a rumor passed through that Connington did have a kid (it's not clear that was the case prior to him being "expelled" from the GC), it wouldn't be a big enough deal to fault Varys for not being to first to tell anyone.

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On 5/17/2020 at 10:11 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Rhaenyra is considered to be a negative example everyone wants to avoid, which is why inheritance leaned even further away from women after her. Cersei is ruling as regent for her son, and her negative example will be used for even more arguments against female rulers.

Gender is not going to stand in the way.  Laws and customs can be changed.  Should be changed. 

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On 5/9/2020 at 7:51 AM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

I did not watch your video.  I want to be clear with you about that.  

It is my opinion that Aegon Griffin (Aegon Blackfyre) is important to the real plot of the story.  Jeyne played her role and she is done.  Fake Arya is the Quentyn in the North.  She had a small role that had important consequences to the main characters.  Fake Arya was the plot bait that pushed Jon Snow over the edge and caused him to betray the Night's Watch.  The consequences will be big.  The chaos it caused will make the Wall vulnerable, basically almost undefended.  Quentyn acted selfishly and tried to steal the dragons.  I am glad he failed and at the same time relieved that the dragons are not sitting ducks for the Harpy to murder.  

Aegon has a big role to play in the politics of the Seven Kingdoms.  He's a pawn in the larger game being played by the Magister and Varys.  Daenerys will reveal that lie and how Aegon reacts will determine his fate.  But we are a long way from that.  Aegon will have a lot of enemies to deal with.  The Lannisters, Tyrells, and those who still support the Baratheons will have to be resolved.  He will definitely want to punish Jaime and the Baratheons.  Aegon may accept a role subordinate to Daenerys.  In which case he can become one of her wingmen that we've talked about on this forum.  

Very much agreed. I see the situation he's stepping into one of a pressure cooker, enemies in all sides closing-in, enemies his team wasn't counting on or is prepared to fight  like Euron , enemies that will be ahead of Varys at times, who thrive on rumors, mistrust and chaos (Little Finger, Tyrells even Stannis), self-serving characters with spies planted everywhere (sand snakes / Doran) - also it will not be so easy to get the love of the people due to the Golden Company wanting to get a piece of the plunder and displacing people who already live in certain lands and lords who have the loyalty of their small folk. The faith may represent another problem his plan to get the people on his side if he picks the wrong wife (Arianne not a saint, or as bright as Margaery imo) - Either he turns into tyrant or abdicates for a more experienced person (Daenerys like you said) or loses and Cersie and/or Euron step up on the throne or does something really desperate like try to tame a dragon to secure power and die or unleash a tragedy. I think where this Blackfyre plan went toast was a little after Robert died or maybe Joffrey. When they were alive, the small folk did have a longing Targaryens when the Lannisters where burning the river lands, but after that, their longing probably turned into support of the faith militant which for better or worse has become their champion. It's  going to be interesting. 

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fAegon and fArya are not essential for the overall flow of the story. If I were a showrunner adapting ASOIAF into TV medium, I would drop them without any hesitation. Why should the watchers care about them when they have rAegon and rArya?

:cheers:

Edited by Mithras

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I think that this discussion about whether fAegon or Daenerys is the legitimate claimant to the Iron Throne is secondary to the main issue.

"When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow."

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3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

When you have them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow."

When they don't have any balls? 

Varys. 

Arya

Dany

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39 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

When they don't have any balls? 

Varys. 

Arya

Dany

True.

Any kind of discussion about whether people rule with the consent of the governed in this world is a bit pointless.  People rule by the power of the sword, ultimately. What counts is how justly and efficiently you rule.

Edited by SeanF

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