Glass Candles: how they work, Jaquen's role at the Citadel, and how the Citadel used them

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, Sam's focus has been shifted towards Azor Ahai and prophecy. It's his POV where Aemon asks him to ask to see Stannis's sword, and Aemon who confides in Sam privately that Stannis's sword doesn't emenate any heat. He's the witness who overhears Aemon talk about the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised and concluding it's Dany. Sam basically accepts Aemon's assessment and relays it to Marwyn who was preparing to seek out Dany at Meereen anyway. At the moment, Samwell doesn't yet know enough to form his own opinion on this, and going mostly by Aemon's conclusion. Surely, the Citadel must have the original of Marwyn's book in which he cites Daenys the Dreamer Targaryen's 3 pages. That's why I think this is something that belongs into Sam's plotline. He's the POV where the Wall's needs and the threats of the Others join with deeper knowlege of the prophecy.

Yes, I can go with that thinking as well.  

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I agree that Sam may risk his life showing he can use a glass candle. I'm certain that's what the Citadel used the glass candles for the past several centuries. Here fake-Pate may end up being of aid in a manner similar he was to Arya, perhaps. The sphinx's purpose is still a riddle to me.

Potentially fake-Pate may show Sam how to use the glass candle.  I think Marwyn used the glass candle to spy out Sam recounting his story to Sarella.  Which is why he tells Sam that he already knows everything Sam has to say. The fact that Jaqen is closeted with Marwyn before Sam meets him; tells me that Marwyn knows that fake-Pate is an FM.  I doubt the acolyte Pate has been taken that far into Marwyn's confidence.  It may even be that Marwyn is involved in the plot to acquire the key and Pate is collateral damage being somewhat useless to start with.   Leo Tyrell could have his face collected if he gets in the way (or is needed for sacrifice).

Yes, still not sure about Aemon's statement either.  The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler.  Quaithe could be considered the riddler, but her true identity is the riddle. 

a question or statement intentionally phrased so as to require ingenuity in ascertaining its answer or meaning, typically presented as a game.

Which is why I always circle back to Alleras/Sarella.  Her game has to be more than her name and her disguise. 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

Here is a link to my own opinions concerning the glass candles:

 

 

 

[Seams]

2 hours ago, lalt said:

Just wanna add that given Sam chapter I doubt that the FM can be both Pate and Leo. Even if Leo is left outside Marwyn’s room, it looks like fPate was already inside. So I highly doubt.

 

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

This doesn't work in Sam's chapter. He meets Leo Tyrell when arriving at the rookery, and then Marwyn pulls Samwell from that room into the one with the glass candle. Pate is already inside, together with Marwyn.

You are both correct, which is why I was careful to mention that the Faceless Man apparently assumes the identity of Leo Tyrell in the preface.

The real Leo Tyrell is being confined to the Citadel at that point, so his fellow novices are surprised to see him out and about.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I can go with that thinking as well.  

Potentially fake-Pate may show Sam how to use the glass candle.  I think Marwyn used the glass candle to spy out Sam recounting his story to Sarella.  Which is why he tells Sam that he already knows everything Sam has to say. The fact that Jaqen is closeted with Marwyn before Sam meets him; tells me that Marwyn knows that fake-Pate is an FM.  I doubt the acolyte Pate has been taken that far into Marwyn's confidence.

Yes, is what I'm thinking too. 1) Probably the sacrifice being burned needed to spy on Sam musn't be something big, something that isn't morally questionnable. 2) But yeah, Leo outside, Sarella picking up Sam and Pate in the room with Marwyn as he burned something in the cooking pot to spy on Sam and Sarella. It's startling to see Pate there with Marwyn, given the track record of poor skill that Pate used to have, and I doubt the same thing. Real Pate would never have gotten Marwyn to show this to him.

I'm not sure Marwyn knows Pate is an FM, but he knows Pate isn't the real Pate. But since he's the archmaester of the magic department, he probably knows that face switching magic is something typical for FM.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

  It may even be that Marwyn is involved in the plot to acquire the key and Pate is collateral damage being somewhat useless to start with.  

Wouldn't Marwyn have his own "archmaester key", since he's an archmaester himself. No, I don't think he was in it at the start. But Jaquen seems to have a knack for ending up in situations where he kindof gets "caught": black cells, caught by Amory Lorch and recruited into Amory's Lannister troops, ... So, speculating here: I wouldn't be surprised if Marwyn hinted at him he knew he wasn't Pate, but that he was fine with that - he had a request, adn in return he would share his knowledge with fake-Pate. Just finding those two together does open the possibility a deal was struck at some point. So, maybe Marwyn didn't spy on Sam to spy on Sam, but was actually "teaching" fake-Pate how to use the candle and decided to use listening in on Sarella and Sam as a taeching moment. It makes little sense and seems a waste of resources if you're going to spy on a man entering to be a novice who's eager to blurt out his story anyway. It only makes sense within the context of giving a demonstration. Though Marwyn was in for a surprise: the demonstration turned out to be the most dangerous things anyone can say within the Citadel. And Marwyn didn't want Sam to spill those stories to Leo Tyrell, because the moment that Sam referred to himself as the Slayer, Marwyn quickly grabbed him and pulled him into the room with Pate.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Leo Tyrell could have his face collected if he gets in the way (or is needed for sacrifice).

Possible, though I agree with @Seams that it's curious to have Leo Tyrell match with the image of a one-eyed man. He has two eyes of course, but the hair tends to cover one eye up. This is a green-magic related symbol, an Odin thing. But the same counts for Euron, who's as evil as can get.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, still not sure about Aemon's statement either.  The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler.  Quaithe could be considered the riddler, but her true identity is the riddle. 

I don't think Quaithe's identity is actually that important. She's a mystery who has to remain a mystery, not a riddle that needs to be solved. The fact that George has her wear a mask is an indication that her identity is not important whatsoever to George, and therefore in his opinion not to the reader either. Quaithe is somewhat typical for George's use of Morgane le Fay figures. They enthrall characters with mysterious words, letting on as if they know so much more, a type of lure. And then he lets the character being lured figure out that the initial helpful Morgan le Fay figure isn't truly an ally and has their own agenda, in some cases a trivial agenda.

• Morgan of Bitterblooms
• Valcarengi of a Song for Lya (and the Greeshka)
• Mirrors in The Armageddon Rag

Actual masked figures rarely ever get a disclosure of their background or history in George's story. Take the masking with Mirrors (a man who wears those mirror sunglasses all the time and is a bodyguard). He barely has any lines and you barely know somethign about him, but he has a threatening presence the moment he appears as a side character. He's important for the reveal to the main character of what is going on, but neither the reader or the main character ever know who Mirrors really is in a background sense, just that he's hireling by Ananda and in on her scheme.

Quaithe's mystery is something George uses as a prop, and therefore a red herring. The meta-results of her actions are more important, and imo are meant to pull Dany astray. Mel's identity is far more significant.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

a question or statement intentionally phrased so as to require ingenuity in ascertaining its answer or meaning, typically presented as a game.

Which is why I always circle back to Alleras/Sarella.  Her game has to be more than her name and her disguise. 

I agree. The true mystery are her motives and intentions.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

 

You are both correct, which is why I was careful to mention that the Faceless Man apparently assumes the identity of Leo Tyrell in the preface.

The real Leo Tyrell is being confined to the Citadel at that point, so his fellow novices are surprised to see him out and about.

You mean that Jaquen/Alchemist/Pate was glamoring Leo Tyrell?

[Seams]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

You mean that Jaquen/Alchemist/Pate was glamoring Leo Tyrell?

I believe that Jaqen / the Alchemist was somehow presenting himself as Leo Tyrell. I don't know whether it was a glamor or some other magic.

In addition to the hair over one eye, Leo Tyrell has spilled wine on his clothes. Those are all associated with Bloodraven. (Except Bloodraven's wine stain is the birthmark on his face.) I can't figure out why or whether Bloodraven would occupy the body of Lazy Leo, but Leo does seem to react positively, maybe even enthusiastically, when the novices propose a toast to Daenerys Targaryen. Maybe this is an important clue for us about a Tyrell link to Bloodraven and/or the Faceless Men.

Here is a Leo analysis I attempted a couple of years ago:

 

 

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, Seams said:

I believe that Jaqen / the Alchemist was somehow presenting himself as Leo Tyrell. I don't know whether it was a glamor or some other magic.

In addition to the hair over one eye, Leo Tyrell has spilled wine on his clothes. Those are all associated with Bloodraven. (Except Bloodraven's wine stain is the birthmark on his face.) I can't figure out why or whether Bloodraven would occupy the body of Lazy Leo, but Leo does seem to react positively, maybe even enthusiastically, when the novices propose a toast to Daenerys Targaryen. Maybe this is an important clue for us about a Tyrell link to Bloodraven and/or the Faceless Men.

Here is a Leo analysis I attempted a couple of years ago:

 

 

FM know glamor magic, according to the kindly man, though he seems to regard it as a lesser art.

I'm inclined to think both in the Prologue as well as in Sam's chapter, Leo is Leo: in both chapters he hints to Alleras he knows she's a woman.
 

Quote

 

"[...] You may be brown as a nut, but at least you bathe.[...]"

[...]

Alleras was no longer smiling. "You will apologize." (aFfC, Prologue)

 

Quote

 

"What are you looking for?" Alleras asked [Leo]. "Your destiny? Your death?"

The blonde youth turned from the candle, blinking. "Naked women." (aFfC, Sam 5)

 

Twice he hints at knowing she's a woman within company, reminding her that she's only allowed to keep on forging links because of his silence. Of course, Jaquen knew Arry was in fact Arya Stark and not a boy, but he never threatened to spill this secret, only confirmed it to Arya at the end.

I do agree with your image assessment of Bloodraven. Actually, Leo's characterization reminds me of Bloodraven as Maynard Plumm in the Mystery Knight. This is a glamored Bloodraven and he has long flaxen hair. The tone and atmosphere of the prologue is much comparable to Dunk and Egg sitting with Maynard Plumm and the hedge nights, drinking wine, talking about dragon eggs, bastards, etc waiting for the ferry the next day.

If we consider that, then Leo is the character who figures out identities. And it shouldn't be surprising to have a green-magic allied figure in a Tyrell, as they are the stand-in family for the Gardeners and Garth, a greenseer king. And while yes, the Mystery Knight involves a glamored bloodraven, I see little use for Jaquen to glamor Leo before making the final meeting with Pate as the Alchemist. But it helps to roughly pinpoint Leo's role at the Citadel. He's likely looking for evidence of treason, not within the ranks of acolytes and novices, but amongst the archmaesters. In the prologue, Leo hints at this too, when one of the acolytes toasts to Dany. Given that Leo is introduced before the Aegon plot and landing is introduced in aDwD, Leo's plotline in the Citadel will likely focus on fAegon events. That would match with Sarella imo, because Aegon's halfmaester is not a man, but a woman I believe. I believe Haldon was a woman who studied at the Citadel pretending to be a man, as Alleras is doing now, made links, but was discovered or betrayed and therefore only half a maester. Not surprisingly, Aegon's bigger band includes the spymaster Lysono Maar, who's handsome but also glib like Leo.

The parallel band concept can also be applied to Arya with Yoren and at HH. We have a girl disguised as a boy (Arya and Alleras), a handsome boy seeing through the boy disguise (Gendry and Leo), the thief-boy who dies (Lommy and Pate), the fat boy (Hot Pie and Samwell) and an FM (Jaquen = Alchemist = fake Pate).

[Ygrain]

23 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

In practice, Pate is foremostly a "servant", with 2 jobs - serving a senile archmaester who thinks Pate is the late maester Cressen and tends to the ravens.

Provided that he remains "Pate" 24/7, though... If he glamours, or steals the face of someone else, he might do next to anything he pleases.

- Mind you, I find your reasoning perfectly logical, I'm just pointing out that we shouldn't rely on Pate being the only on impersonated.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

Provided that he remains "Pate" 24/7, though... If he glamours, or steals the face of someone else, he might do next to anything he pleases.

- Mind you, I find your reasoning perfectly logical, I'm just pointing out that we shouldn't rely on Pate being the only on impersonated.

In theory he could impersonate more, but it seems to me that both with Arya; Jaquen and Bloodraven (whether it's a face or a common disguise or a glamor) characters maintain a certain disguise throughout a mission. The character who switches into various disguises for an hour or so is Varys. I don't think that's because there's an in-world restriction, but a restriction that George put on it himself, in order to be fair to the reader. I don't think he wants the reader to be suspicious of anyone near a known FM to be yet another disguise.

Our FM looks like Jaquen in a Black Cell and he maintains that face until he leaves Harrenhal. Then he alters his face to that of the Alchemist, and presumably used that to travel to the Iron Islands, wore it when he killed Balon, and then journeyed to Oldtown with it, to kill Pate in the same disguise. 

Why? It can't be because our FM only has 2 faces. George wrote it that way so that we the reader would still know, oh it's Jaquen. Notice also that George never reveals the boy with Marwyn being instructed into the use of the glass candle is fake Pate until the very end of Sam's chapter, showing that whatever Jaquen is on a mission for, it's not some murder, for he had months to do that between the Prologue and the very last chapter of aFfC. And he uses the reveal of Marwyn's pupil with the glass candle as a cliffhanger. And let's not forget it's only from aFfC onwards that we actually begin to learn about Braavos and the House of Black and White. I have the impression, George would consider it "cheating" if has Jaquen suddenly use multiple faces and glamors, though in theory he could.

 

[Seams]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm inclined to think both in the Prologue as well as in Sam's chapter, Leo is Leo: in both chapters he hints to Alleras he knows she's a woman.

Quote

"[...] You may be brown as a nut, but at least you bathe.[...]"

[...]

Alleras was no longer smiling. "You will apologize." (aFfC, Prologue)

Quote

"What are you looking for?" Alleras asked [Leo]. "Your destiny? Your death?"

The blonde youth turned from the candle, blinking. "Naked women." (aFfC, Sam 5)

Twice he hints at knowing she's a woman within company, reminding her that she's only allowed to keep on forging links because of his silence. Of course, Jaquen knew Arry was in fact Arya Stark and not a boy, but he never threatened to spill this secret, only confirmed it to Arya at the end.

There may be a hint here that he knows she's a woman but I suspect the stronger meanings behind Leo's words refer to other things.

In The Sworn Sword, there is a character called Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield who never bathes. He is a central figure in the battle between the House that controls water and the House that controls the woods and fields used for food crops - essentially water vs. earth or dirt. As a "dirt" character, Bennis resides with the woods & fields family, House Osgrey. Leo's insult about being "brown as a nut" seems to put Alleras in this earth or dirt category (the nut clearly tying in the tree reference) but differentiating her/him from Ser Bennis as someone who bathes. (If speculation is correct that Alleras is Sarella Sand, her "sand" surname might tend to confirm the earth/dirt connection.)

In the story, Dunk makes a point of bathing regularly (much to the irritation of Egg, who has to help fill the bath) and he makes sure that the bannermen of House Osgrey also bathe. Also in the story, Bennis seems unable to cross into the land of House Webber until Dunk decides to make the crossing and Ser Bennis tags along.

If I had to guess right now, I would say the symbolism is that House Martell is another earth or dirt house -- in their case, they are a sand house. (In the Sworn Sword story, there is a lot of symbolism around a dying horse named Chestnut in the Dornish desert and Dornishmen discouraging Dunk from wasting tears by crying into the sand.) Leo's remark tells us that Sarella / Alleras has broken with the dirt identity, however, and it may be because of her maternal heritage as a Summer Islander. We don't know a lot about the Summer Islands or their people, but I think that GRRM uses islands as "stepping stones" (hence the Step Stones) as transitional places where characters can cross from one world into another. If Sarella / Alleras has this special ability, it would explain why Prince Doran was able to easily imprison the Sand Snakes who are daughters of the Dornish woman Ellaria, but he decides not to (cannot?) pull Sarella back to Dorne for confinement.

For what it's worth (and I realize we have strayed from the Glass Candle focus - sorry about that), I find that members of the King's Guard have a unique ability to cross barriers that separate these worlds - Dunk breaks down the division between Webber and Osgrey, water and dirt; Ser Arys Oakheart is able to escort Myrcella to Dorne; Jaime is able to negotiate terms to end the fighting in the Riverlands. As I have mentioned before, I believe that Mollander is the son of Ser Dontos (not my discovery but I can't remember who gets the credit) and Ser Dontos was the closest living heir of House Darklyn, which is known for generations of dedication and service to the King's Guard. Mollander throws the apples up over the river and Alleras / Sarella shoots them down. (Apples are part of the larger fruit motif in the books and may be uniquely associated with kings.) So the partnership of Mollander and Alleras might be compared to Dunk and Bennis crossing together into the lands of Rohanne Webber.

(Interestingly, the sojourn by Dunk and Bennis results in Bennis cutting the cheek of one of Rohanne's workers, resulting in bleeding that is compared to "claret on the cheek." This spilled wine metaphor could go with the wine stain on Lazy Leo's clothes when he sits at the table with the other novices.)

In the second excerpt you cite, Leo says that he is using the glass candle to search for naked women. I suspect this is an echo of King Robert's conversation with Ned Stark in the Winterfell crypt, where he encourages Ned to move south by telling him about the naked women swimming in the river below the walls of the Red Keep and wearing sheer fabrics that cling to their sweaty bodies. Leo isn't revealing himself as a lecherous dimwit, he is signaling the importance of finding the bathing maiden associated with Florian and Jonquil, the Maiden of the Seven Gods and Ser Galladon of Morne, etc. I am increasingly convinced that possession of a maiden is an important element in the deepest layer of the Game of Thrones, a layer that is not recognized by those who think the Iron Throne is the only goal in the game. Among other things, it could explain why Rhaegar wanted Lyanna and why so many King's Guard members accompanied Lyanna to the Dornish border.

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The tone and atmosphere of the prologue is much comparable to Dunk and Egg sitting with Maynard Plumm and the hedge nights, drinking wine, talking about dragon eggs, bastards, etc waiting for the ferry the next day.

 

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The parallel band concept can also be applied to Arya with Yoren and at HH. We have a girl disguised as a boy (Arya and Alleras), a handsome boy seeing through the boy disguise (Gendry and Leo), the thief-boy who dies (Lommy and Pate), the fat boy (Hot Pie and Samwell) and an FM (Jaquen = Alchemist = fake Pate).

Both very nice catches! Lots to unpack here. Fascinating.

[sweetsunray]

28 minutes ago, Seams said:

There may be a hint here that he knows she's a woman but I suspect the stronger meanings behind Leo's words refer to other things.

In The Sworn Sword, there is a character called Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield who never bathes. He is a central figure in the battle between the House that controls water and the House that controls the woods and fields used for food crops - essentially water vs. earth or dirt. As a "dirt" character, Bennis resides with the woods & fields family, House Osgrey. Leo's insult about being "brown as a nut" seems to put Alleras in this earth or dirt category (the nut clearly tying in the tree reference) but differentiating her/him from Ser Bennis as someone who bathes. (If speculation is correct that Alleras is Sarella Sand, her "sand" surname might tend to confirm the earth/dirt connection.)

In the story, Dunk makes a point of bathing regularly (much to the irritation of Egg, who has to help fill the bath) and he makes sure that the bannermen of House Osgrey also bathe. Also in the story, Bennis seems unable to cross into the land of House Webber until Dunk decides to make the crossing and Ser Bennis tags along.

If I had to guess right now, I would say the symbolism is that House Martell is another earth or dirt house -- in their case, they are a sand house. (In the Sworn Sword story, there is a lot of symbolism around a dying horse named Chestnut in the Dornish desert and Dornishmen discouraging Dunk from wasting tears by crying into the sand.) Leo's remark tells us that Sarella / Alleras has broken with the dirt identity, however, and it may be because of her maternal heritage as a Summer Islander. We don't know a lot about the Summer Islands or their people, but I think that GRRM uses islands as "stepping stones" (hence the Step Stones) as transitional places where characters can cross from one world into another. If Sarella / Alleras has this special ability, it would explain why Prince Doran was able to easily imprison the Sand Snakes who are daughters of the Dornish woman Ellaria, but he decides not to (cannot?) pull Sarella back to Dorne for confinement.

For what it's worth (and I realize we have strayed from the Glass Candle focus - sorry about that), I find that members of the King's Guard have a unique ability to cross barriers that separate these worlds - Dunk breaks down the division between Webber and Osgrey, water and dirt; Ser Arys Oakheart is able to escort Myrcella to Dorne; Jaime is able to negotiate terms to end the fighting in the Riverlands. As I have mentioned before, I believe that Mollander is the son of Ser Dontos (not my discovery but I can't remember who gets the credit) and Ser Dontos was the closest living heir of House Darklyn, which is known for generations of dedication and service to the King's Guard. Mollander throws the apples up over the river and Alleras / Sarella shoots them down. (Apples are part of the larger fruit motif in the books and may be uniquely associated with kings.) So the partnership of Mollander and Alleras might be compared to Dunk and Bennis crossing together into the lands of Rohanne Webber.

(Interestingly, the sojourn by Dunk and Bennis results in Bennis cutting the cheek of one of Rohanne's workers, resulting in bleeding that is compared to "claret on the cheek." This spilled wine metaphor could go with the wine stain on Lazy Leo's clothes when he sits at the table with the other novices.)

In the second excerpt you cite, Leo says that he is using the glass candle to search for naked women. I suspect this is an echo of King Robert's conversation with Ned Stark in the Winterfell crypt, where he encourages Ned to move south by telling him about the naked women swimming in the river below the walls of the Red Keep and wearing sheer fabrics that cling to their sweaty bodies. Leo isn't revealing himself as a lecherous dimwit, he is signaling the importance of finding the bathing maiden associated with Florian and Jonquil, the Maiden of the Seven Gods and Ser Galladon of Morne, etc. I am increasingly convinced that possession of a maiden is an important element in the deepest layer of the Game of Thrones, a layer that is not recognized by those who think the Iron Throne is the only goal in the game. Among other things, it could explain why Rhaegar wanted Lyanna and why so many King's Guard members accompanied Lyanna to the Dornish border.

 

Both very nice catches! Lots to unpack here. Fascinating.

Based on Alleras/Sarella's response, I think it foremostly a hint of Leo in-story towards her that he knows she's a woman. I love symbolic and elemental analysis, but I very much doubt that Leo's intentions and thoughts are "I count you as an earth person but you became a water person". I also want to point out that "bathing" is a proper Dornish thing to do: all the children get a chance to grow up in the water gardens, bathe and play with one another in water regardless of birth status. I also agree that on the red herring is that Leo said "naked women" as a lecherous dimwit. He is not. But notice that he always talks to Sarella about imagary of bathing and nakedness, not because he's a lecherous dimwit, but because he knows that beneath the male disguise is a naked body of a woman, and he knows because he saw her bathing.

[dialt]

On 5/10/2020 at 8:29 PM, Seams said:

The real Leo Tyrell is being confined to the Citadel at that point, so his fellow novices are surprised to see him out and about.

good point.

[sweetsunray]

@Seams

The idea of Leo Tyrell being impersonated by Jaquen/Alchemist in the prologue has been perculating around in my mind, and thus it ook a few days for me to see its weakness.

It seems a neat coincidence that Leo was supposedly confined in the Citadel, and how smart would it be by Jaquen, right? Well no. Leo was seen by many fellow novices and acolytes at the inn. And he provoked them into a memorable scene, where he soured Alleras and angered others proposing to attack him, as well as mentioned dragons, glass candles, etc. Pate died and could never confront the "real" Leo about it afterwards, but the others surely could have. If he was supposed to be "confined" for another three days, surely, Alleras, Mollander, etc would perk up their heads in the next 3 days, and then learn that Leo was still confined after all, or in the days after may still confront Leo after getting out of confinement over their tiff, and then the "real" Leo wouldn't even know what the hell they're talking about.

Hence, the idea of Jaquen impersonating Leo Tyrell only works as a gimmick to the reader for a static situation, but not in-world for the witness characters and Leo himself in a dynamic life-situtation. 

For such an impersonation to work and be smart, Jaquen would have needed to show up at the inn in Leo-form after everybody else had left and only the intended victim Pate was left in order to egg him on, to then switch to the Alchemist to make the deal. These are unnecessary convulated extra layers of disguise for something that lasts only 5 minutes.

The premisse for the impersonation is that fake-Leo would warm-up Pate to make the deal with the Alchemist. But this ignores the fact that Pate was already there at the Inn in order to make the deal with the Alchemist, already having taken the key and the bag of silver from the archmaester to sell it to the Alchemist, planning to never return to the Citadel, but buy Rosie, a donkey and leave Oldtown. Pate doesn't need any warm-up anymore via a wing-man impersonation.

The simplest explanation why the Alchemist only showed up in the alleys of Oldtown while Pate returned to the Citadel at dawns, was because he waited until he had the opportunity to meet with Pate without witnesses around.

BTW, on a completely different tangent - what do you make of the name "Walgrave" The prologue is full of references that the archmaester names are purposefully chosen for their puns.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Bookmarking to read later.

[Seams]

On 5/13/2020 at 4:49 PM, sweetsunray said:

The idea of Leo Tyrell being impersonated by Jaquen/Alchemist in the prologue has been perculating around in my mind, and thus it ook a few days for me to see its weakness.

I suspect the alchemist did not want Pate's companions to see him in the form of the Alchemist. I don't know that a further premise was necessary for the disguise - warming up Pate might not be necessary, although it's possible that Pate could get cold feet or could reveal the secret plan to sell Walgrave's key and the other novices might talk him out of it. I think the Alchemist just wanted to show up on time and to keep Pate focused on his desire for Rosey and the gold dragon, even though he decided to hide his face until Pate's companions departed. I agree that he wanted to meet with Pate without any witnesses around.

The "disguise" is more effective if Leo is in on the impersonation: if someone later confronts him about his behavior or whereabouts that night, he can acknowledge that he was at the Quill and Tankard but claim the details are hazy because he was drunk. Or maybe he was watching the whole scene through a glass candle and would be able to respond appropriately to details or questions his classmates might mention.

But maybe there is a "snitches get stitches" code of silence among the novices - if Leo was not supposed to be outside of the Citadel that night, maybe the others will just keep the secret and say nothing about it, helping to keep Leo out of further trouble even though he is not their favorite classmate.

There may be explanations that don't require Leo to be in cahoots with the Alchemist.

I went back and looked at Leo Longthorn in The Hedge Knight. He picks his battles, choosing to stay out of the Trial of Seven. In the earlier jousting, however, he is a key player on a very symbolic level. I suspect Leo Longthorn may be one of the "demi-gods" (for lack of a better word) that GRRM scatters among his mortal characters. As the Lord of High Garden, he might be the personification of Garth Greenhands. If so, Lazy Leo, who shares the name "Leo Tyrell", could be a continuation of the same divine presence. If that is the case, he may have projected himself out of the Citadel and into the group of friends at the Quill and Tankard using a magic we haven't seen yet - i.e., not the Faceless Man kind or disguise, or a glamor or skinchanging.

Maybe the glass candle gives him the ability to travel outside of his body. Speculative, I realize, but not inconsistent with the other disguises or magic we have seen in the books.

I can see GRRM setting us all up to focus on Marwyn the Mage as the Magic Guy who is leading a group of rebel novices at the Citadel, deliberately diverting our attention away from Leo Tyrell who secretly represents the oldest divine presence in Westeros and who is pulling strings that manipulate many other characters.

One little detail that intrigues me is the nickname "Lazy Leo". I wonder whether he is hinting at a connection to the Lhazareen, the Lamb Men, one of whom was Mirri Maz Duur, an old friend and fellow practitioner of magic with Marwyn.

But we need to see the next Citadel chapters to know more.

And you may be right that Leo is simply Leo and the Alchemist shows up late to get the key because he is waiting for Pate's friends to leave.

On 5/13/2020 at 4:49 PM, sweetsunray said:

BTW, on a completely different tangent - what do you make of the name "Walgrave" The prologue is full of references that the archmaester names are purposefully chosen for their puns.

I've wondered about that name. One of the clearest clues we have about graves at the Wall comes in the chapter where Tyrion sits on the Iron Throne and makes fun of Alliser Thorne who brought from Castle Black a wighted zombie hand that has now died. Tyrion jokes that the court should provide the Night's Watch with shovels so they can bury their dead more effectively. Ser Alliser, of course, seems extremely humiliated and irritated with Tyrion - a second scene where Tyrion has made fun of him in front of a crowd of people. (The first was at the crab feast with the Night's Watch officers.)

If Tyrion saw Ser Alliser as a gravedigger, that would require us to examine the Gravedigger on the Quiet Isle. One thing always leads to another.

I suspect Ser Alliser is symbolically connected to the Iron Throne - with the last name Thorne, does he embody the throne? His scene with Tyrion is one of the few scenes where someone is actually sitting on the throne. He is also a Master at Arms, and the throne is made out of swords.

But I also saw a strong parallel between Alliser Thorne and the Queen of Thorns at one point. I was interested in fools at the time so I didn't focus much effort on analysis of the Ser Alliser / Lady Olenna comparison.

But there may be other ways to look at the name "Walgrave". Is GRRM telling us that Val is a Warg? That would be an interesting twist.

[Aebram]

There's some good thinking here, but I do have to disagree on one point.  It seemed obvious to me that the "after battles " remark is just a bit of dark humor. Ravens eat the dead; they help clean up the battlefield.

Quote

Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"

"We would have no more need of ravens."

"Only after battles." (aFfC, Sam V)

It seemed obvious to me that the "after battles " remark is just a bit of dark humor. Ravens eat the dead; they help clean up the battlefield.

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, Aebram said:

There's some good thinking here, but I do have to disagree on one point.  It seemed obvious to me that the "after battles " remark is just a bit of dark humor. Ravens eat the dead; they help clean up the battlefield.

Could be both: on the one hand a quip of dark humor, no the other hand a reflection or paradox to a coming battle. And with Euron coming for Oldtown and Yunkai besieging Meereen and both Dany and Ironborn being the subjects of discussion in Sam's chapter at Oldtown, the reader is not prone to associate glass candles with Stannis's battle, especially with the Pink Letter. And while rationally glass candle info on Dany, her dragons,etc may be interesting, it's hard to connect that interest to Braavos, except for "they're skittish about dragons". The actual book story doesn't show Braavosi factions having a keen interest in Dany so far. But George put their cards on the reader table when they sent Tycho Nestoris into a blizzard to find a claimant to the Iron Throne whose chances seemed very slim at some crofter's village. And if Stannis is pretending to be dead, after battle, and Jacquen can verify it per glass candle, then this conversation suddenly doesn't just read like dark humor anymore, but as a foreshadowing. Is it foreshadowing? Well, we don't know until it turns out that Jaquen ends up using the glass candles in such a way.

[sweetsunray]

13 hours ago, Seams said:

I've wondered about that name. One of the clearest clues we have about graves at the Wall comes in the chapter where Tyrion sits on the Iron Throne and makes fun of Alliser Thorne who brought from Castle Black a wighted zombie hand that has now died. Tyrion jokes that the court should provide the Night's Watch with shovels so they can bury their dead more effectively. Ser Alliser, of course, seems extremely humiliated and irritated with Tyrion - a second scene where Tyrion has made fun of him in front of a crowd of people. (The first was at the crab feast with the Night's Watch officers.)

I'd say the clearest clues about graves at the Wall are Jon's final chapter in aDwD: Boroq and his boar live in the lichyard of the Wall, in order to stay clear from Jon's Ghost. We're told  the boar rooted around in the yard, loosening the soil there. In other words, the boar has been a grave digger. And of course we have dead bodies in ice cells.

Now combine that with Tyrion's joke about burying their dead more effectively. The Watch has started to burn their dead since the wights attempting to assassinate Jeor, but it seems they didn't dig up their long dead buried brothers from the lichyard to burn them. Oops. So, when a gravedigging boar loosens the soil around them.... I think you're getting the picture.

And imo it's actually happening at the end of Jon's chapter during the attempt on his life, for these reasons. Remember the snowstorm that hit the Wall in that last chapter? When it hits, and Jon orders to have Karstark taken out of the ice cells to be moved to the cells in the LC's tower we are told the snow definitely is blown in from the south. But those snow clouds didn't come from the south. They drifted in from North of the Wall. Earlier that day, Jon met with Selyse and on his way back to the armory and forge (his office and room), he notices a sky packed with snow sky. He's looking up at the sky above the wall then, and thus meaning that he's looking north. He proceeds to his quarters and meets with his guards outside, who tell him they don't dare to go inside for fear of Ghost, who nearly bit one of them. Jon assumes it's the smell of the boar (and that's when we learn where Boroq and his boar reside). Most readers assume Ghost is agitated against the conspiritors and protective of Jon, except Ghost nearly attacks Jon as well when he goes inside to calm Ghost. And it's not just Ghost: the raven is all in uproar too, shreeking "snow!" repeatedly. Again, readers and Jon have become accustomed to the ravens saying snow to Jon, as it's a name that Samwell trained them. But in this instance I believe the raven wastrying to warn Jon about the implication of that particular snow sky. If the wind was blowing from the north that time, then Ghost and the raven smelled someething that alarmed them. 

Does this hypothesis bear out? Well, later Jon has a meeting with Bowen. And while yes, Ghost is showing signs of suspicion towards Bowen, he's not nearly as aggressive as he was to Jon himself earlier, let alone the guard. And yet Bowen is one of the man hours later who actually stabs Jon. And the raven isn't even agitated anymore. This discrepancy at least shows that the earlier aggression and agitation of both Ghost and the raven was unrelated to "conspiracy". It was something else. Jon accompanies Bowen outside of the armory. That's when he notices how hard it's snowing and how the snow is being pushed up against the ice cells by the southwind, and order the cells to be cleared from snow. That explains why Ghost and the raven were less aggressive, despite the specific distrust shown towards Bowen - whatever they smelled on the northwind earlier, they didn't anymore. Something is staying "downwind" by then. Who the heck can manipulate snowdrifts and winds and is intelligent to say downwind? Predators are, in this case the Others.

Again, later after the Pink Letter arrives and Jon discusses it with Tormund, the raven and Ghost are quite calm. The raven is playing goofy antics and wordplay that make Tormund laugh, while Ghost is settled down, and just tries to join Jon when he wants to go to the Shield Hall. If those two animals went nuts in the morning, over a plot to kill Jon, then they're actually showing less worries over it by nightfall.

Eventually we have the assassination attempt on Jon's life, intermixed with people shrieking and Jon only feeling the cold. I believe that the Others are north of Castle Black at the rim of the Haunted Forest at that moment, and when his blood was drawn, they raised the lichyard dead as wights, that the drawing of the LC's blood who became one with the Wall (in a far earlier chapter Jon sees his reflection in the ice of the wall when meeting with Karstark, not to mention "the Wall is yours" mantra in aSoS, and the Wall "shaking of Jarl" shortly after Jon wished for it at a time Jeor Mormont was already dead) weakened the magical shield the Wall normally provides enough to allow the Others to use their magic to raise the dead where they couldn't prior to that with southbound unwighted corpses. How did they know to be there on time? I strongly suspect they use "ice" as looking glasses to spy and even some (or at least their queen) can see the future in ice (like Mel can in her fires), and they've been spying on the NW via the Wall since at least since Waymar Royce arrived at the Wall at the onset of the story.

Remember that Karstark was "moved to a cell in the LC tower". The last prominent time we had any chapters in the LC tower and with someone put in a cell there was the night that Othor and Jafer attempted to assassinate the LC and Jon was in a cell there for beating up Alisser. Remember that Boroq warned in the penultimate chapter that the Others were coming, as he passed through the gate.

The lichyard, the graves of the Wall were always the NW's weakness. The danger doesn't come from the dead chained in an ice cell, but the dead in the soil.

• Walgrave
• Tyrion to Alliser: joking they should bury their dead more effectively, when Alliser comes to court with the hand of a wight who attacked the NW at Castle Black
• A gravedigger on the Quiet Isle, who's a "dead man" walking, because everybody believes him to be dead
• A gravedigging boar loosening the earth in the lichyard
• the reminder of a (Kar)Stark in a cell in the LC tower on the night that wights roamed and attacked people of the NW
• Ghost and the raven going berserk over snow at a time when the wind came in from the north

There's more of course, like Jon's smell - some people or places stink to him enormously. As a warg who's connected to Ghost for a while now, his own sense become more wolflike. He's starting to get his own personal wolf nose senses, because part of Ghost lives inside him now.

• Mole's town - a reference to potentially Mother Mole (aka Hardhome), but also Sam's first aFfC chapter about moles, and well "blind life beneath the soil digging their way up"
• Karstark throwing his feces around and smelling horrible to Jon when he visits him in his ice cell - Alys's warning about the Karstarks intending to betray Stannis is not something Jon could keep secret (Clydas was present) and would have put Bowen on edge the moment he learned of the news within the Pink Letter, and Karstark had ample opportunities to gloat over it to Wittlestick (one of the conspiritors who tries to stab Jon and key-figure, as in he carries all the keys), gets put in the same location as a reminder to the aGoT chapter with Othor and Jafer attacking the NW within CB.
• Axel Florent - the desire to acquire Val for wife, leading Patrek to "steal" her from her tower, Wun Wun killing him as her protector and bloody mayhem in the yard that leads to the opportunity for the conspiritors to stab Jon
• Boroq's boar - the animal that loosens the soil for the potential wights in the lichyard.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I'd say the clearest clues about graves at the Wall are Jon's final chapter in aDwD: Boroq and his boar live in the lichyard of the Wall, in order to stay clear from Jon's Ghost. We're told  the boar rooted around in the yard, loosening the soil there. In other words, the boar has been a grave digger. And of course we have dead bodies in ice cells.

Now combine that with Tyrion's joke about burying their dead more effectively. The Watch has started to burn their dead since the wights attempting to assassinate Jeor, but it seems they didn't dig up their long dead buried brothers from the lichyard to burn them. Oops. So, when a gravedigging boar loosens the soil around them.... I think you're getting the picture.

And imo it's actually happening at the end of Jon's chapter during the attempt on his life, for these reasons. Remember the snowstorm that hit the Wall in that last chapter? When it hits, and Jon orders to have Karstark taken out of the ice cells to be moved to the cells in the LC's tower we are told the snow definitely is blown in from the south. But those snow clouds didn't come from the south. They drifted in from North of the Wall. Earlier that day, Jon met with Selyse and on his way back to the armory and forge (his office and room), he notices a sky packed with snow sky. He's looking up at the sky above the wall then, and thus meaning that he's looking north. He proceeds to his quarters and meets with his guards outside, who tell him they don't dare to go inside for fear of Ghost, who nearly bit one of them. Jon assumes it's the smell of the boar (and that's when we learn where Boroq and his boar reside). Most readers assume Ghost is agitated against the conspiritors and protective of Jon, except Ghost nearly attacks Jon as well when he goes inside to calm Ghost. And it's not just Ghost: the raven is all in uproar too, shreeking "snow!" repeatedly. Again, readers and Jon have become accustomed to the ravens saying snow to Jon, as it's a name that Samwell trained them. But in this instance I believe the raven wastrying to warn Jon about the implication of that particular snow sky. If the wind was blowing from the north that time, then Ghost and the raven smelled someething that alarmed them. 

Does this hypothesis bear out? Well, later Jon has a meeting with Bowen. And while yes, Ghost is showing signs of suspicion towards Bowen, he's not nearly as aggressive as he was to Jon himself earlier, let alone the guard. And yet Bowen is one of the man hours later who actually stabs Jon. And the raven isn't even agitated anymore. This discrepancy at least shows that the earlier aggression and agitation of both Ghost and the raven was unrelated to "conspiracy". It was something else. Jon accompanies Bowen outside of the armory. That's when he notices how hard it's snowing and how the snow is being pushed up against the ice cells by the southwind, and order the cells to be cleared from snow. That explains why Ghost and the raven were less aggressive, despite the specific distrust shown towards Bowen - whatever they smelled on the northwind earlier, they didn't anymore. Something is staying "downwind" by then. Who the heck can manipulate snowdrifts and winds and is intelligent to say downwind? Predators are, in this case the Others.

Again, later after the Pink Letter arrives and Jon discusses it with Tormund, the raven and Ghost are quite calm. The raven is playing goofy antics and wordplay that make Tormund laugh, while Ghost is settled down, and just tries to join Jon when he wants to go to the Shield Hall. If those two animals went nuts in the morning, over a plot to kill Jon, then they're actually showing less worries over it by nightfall.

Eventually we have the assassination attempt on Jon's life, intermixed with people shrieking and Jon only feeling the cold. I believe that the Others are north of Castle Black at the rim of the Haunted Forest at that moment, and when his blood was drawn, they raised the lichyard dead as wights, that the drawing of the LC's blood who became one with the Wall (in a far earlier chapter Jon sees his reflection in the ice of the wall when meeting with Karstark, not to mention "the Wall is yours" mantra in aSoS, and the Wall "shaking of Jarl" shortly after Jon wished for it at a time Jeor Mormont was already dead) weakened the magical shield the Wall normally provides enough to allow the Others to use their magic to raise the dead where they couldn't prior to that with southbound unwighted corpses. How did they know to be there on time? I strongly suspect they use "ice" as looking glasses to spy and even some (or at least their queen) can see the future in ice (like Mel can in her fires), and they've been spying on the NW via the Wall since at least since Waymar Royce arrived at the Wall at the onset of the story.

Remember that Karstark was "moved to a cell in the LC tower". The last prominent time we had any chapters in the LC tower and with someone put in a cell there was the night that Othor and Jafer attempted to assassinate the LC and Jon was in a cell there for beating up Alisser. Remember that Boroq warned in the penultimate chapter that the Others were coming, as he passed through the gate.

The lichyard, the graves of the Wall were always the NW's weakness. The danger doesn't come from the dead chained in an ice cell, but the dead in the soil.

• Walgrave
• Tyrion to Alliser: joking they should bury their dead more effectively, when Alliser comes to court with the hand of a wight who attacked the NW at Castle Black
• A gravedigger on the Quiet Isle, who's a "dead man" walking, because everybody believes him to be dead
• A gravedigging boar loosening the earth in the lichyard
• the reminder of a (Kar)Stark in a cell in the LC tower on the night that wights roamed and attacked people of the NW
• Ghost and the raven going berserk over snow at a time when the wind came in from the north

There's more of course, like Jon's smell - some people or places stink to him enormously. As a warg who's connected to Ghost for a while now, his own sense become more wolflike. He's starting to get his own personal wolf nose senses, because part of Ghost lives inside him now.

• Mole's town - a reference to potentially Mother Mole (aka Hardhome), but also Sam's first aFfC chapter about moles, and well "blind life beneath the soil digging their way up"
• Karstark throwing his feces around and smelling horrible to Jon when he visits him in his ice cell - Alys's warning about the Karstarks intending to betray Stannis is not something Jon could keep secret (Clydas was present) and would have put Bowen on edge the moment he learned of the news within the Pink Letter, and Karstark had ample opportunities to gloat over it to Wittlestick (one of the conspiritors who tries to stab Jon and key-figure, as in he carries all the keys), gets put in the same location as a reminder to the aGoT chapter with Othor and Jafer attacking the NW within CB.
• Axel Florent - the desire to acquire Val for wife, leading Patrek to "steal" her from her tower, Wun Wun killing him as her protector and bloody mayhem in the yard that leads to the opportunity for the conspiritors to stab Jon
• Boroq's boar - the animal that loosens the soil for the potential wights in the lichyard.

OH, HOLY OLD HELL!  Great connections!  This means all the abandoned forts are in play because of their lichyards.  I'd add Mance digging up all those graves although that's on the other side of the Wall.  However, dead things in the water. Going around the Wall isn't out of the question.

[Seams]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I'd say the clearest clues about graves at the Wall are Jon's final chapter in aDwD: Boroq and his boar live in the lichyard of the Wall, in order to stay clear from Jon's Ghost. We're told  the boar rooted around in the yard, loosening the soil there. In other words, the boar has been a grave digger. And of course we have dead bodies in ice cells.

... The Watch has started to burn their dead since the wights attempting to assassinate Jeor, but it seems they didn't dig up their long dead buried brothers from the lichyard to burn them. Oops. So, when a gravedigging boar loosens the soil around them.... I think you're getting the picture.

So many symbols come together in that final Jon POV, it's difficult to know where to begin. Many of your points may be on-target. I'll try to address the ones that stick closest to the possible "Walgrave" hint coming from the Citadel chapters.

I think GRRM is very specific about the various types of body disposal: a crypt is not the same thing as a pyre; a lichyard is not the same thing as a barrow. But then he does weird stuff with hidden hints that may be specific to one noble house or to a line of symbolism that he has fostered across the books. For instance, I suspect that "Tobho Mott" is an anagram for "hot tomb". (Although it may also be "hot bottom," which I read as a hint that Flea Bottom is a type of forge for humanity.) The "hot tomb" hint may be a clue that swords and/or other weapons are reborn when they pass through the hands of Tobho Mott. A crypt and a tomb are a pretty close match in terms of burial type, so the Winterfell crypt, where the Stark children (and Theon) often played, may have been a recycling place for rebirth of Stark souls.

This is relevant because Jon Snow as the new Lord Commander takes up residence in Donal Noye's quarters, adjacent to the forge, at Castle Black. Donal Noye was a Baratheon smith at Storm's End and he made the warhammer that killed Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. There's a ton of other symbolism in Donal's relationship with Jon, but I'll just say that I think Donal does some work to "forge" Jon Snow into being a better person - teaching him compassion toward his fellow Night's Watch brothers even though they are low born and don't have his skill with a sword. Donal also remakes the sword Long Claw for Jon.

Through the magic of not-quite-perfect anagrams, I suspect that Donal Noye's "niello brooch with a broken clasp" may be a hint about the importance of Boroq and his boar. In other posts I've explained the Robb / Robert / Boar symbolism and the presence of boars at the deaths of kings. (And I know others have probably explained this more clearly before I ever joined the forum.) I believe that Boroq is a reborn version of Robb Stark and his boar may be the reborn direwolf Grey Wind. The arrival of the boar at Castle Black is a pretty clear signal that a king is about to die. If the interpretation is correct that Boroq is a version of Jon Snow's half-brother, a king who was slain, the symbolism looks pretty ominous for Jon Snow.

I like your connection that the lichyard represents the imperfect burial that does not ensure eternal rest for people who die near the Others. Your surmise about Boroq and the boar in the lichyard may be about a future resurrection of dead Night's Watch brothers, or it may be reassurance for us that Jon Snow will be dead only until he can rise again - we hope he won't be a soulless wight, but we do hope he will be restored to life.

(I wonder what it means that Ned has the direwolf Lady buried in the Winterfell lichyard instead of the crypt?)

There is a memorable flashback (can't remember whether it's Arya or Sansa) where the younger Stark kids go into the Winterfell crypt with Robb where Jon Snow, covered in flour, emerges from a tomb and "scares the baby" by pretending to be a ghost. I may be contradicting myself about GRRM's precision in separating tombs from graves, or maybe Robb / Boroq has to be present to resurrect Jon Snow at both the crypt and at the place his body will be stored at Castle Black. If post-stabbing Jon Snow is laid to rest in an ice cell, that may be part of the "tomb family" of body-disposal methods and it will be easy for him to be "reforged" and reborn, just like the reborn swords that come from the forges of Tobho Mott and Donal Noye.

But I thought of another "Walgrave" that might be relevant: the Seventy-Nine Sentinels. These were Night's Watch deserters who attempted to escape south. A younger son of Lord Ryswell was among them. Lord Ryswell captured his son and the son's friends and forced their return to the Night Fort where they were sealed in the Wall as punishment for deserting. Their icy graves include spears and horns, presumably so they can sound the horns to warn the Night's Watch of approaching enemies and use the spears to defend the Wall. Lord Ryswell joined the Night's Watch at the end of his life, so there may be eighty sentinels sealed in the Wall.

Of course, sentinel is a type of tree in Westeros, and "deserter = red trees" is one of the earlier anagrams in the Puns & Wordplay thread, fwiw.

The Ryswell connection to the 79 Sentinels may be a hint to look at Lady Dustin, who was born a Ryswell but who is now the head of House Dustin that oversees Barrowtown. After trying and failing to find the entrance on her own, she compels Theon to take her into the Winterfell crypt where Theon is reborn and where she vows that Ned Stark's bones will never be laid to rest. If Lady Dustin controls the rebirth of dead northern residents who were placed in barrows, she could command quite an army, perhaps countering the potential wights you predict in the Castle Black lichyard.

But there is probably also a relationship to the Sky Cells at the Eyrie, which are not graves.

As you can tell, I could go on forever with this kind of stuff.

On the original topic of glass candles, I will note that I think the Hightower seat of House Hightower is a symbolic glass candle, and that it is linked to the Wall. I suspect that "shadow weapons," such as those conjured by Melisandre, are somehow comprised of both shadow and time. The Hightower is used as a giant sundial, with the movement of its shadow telling the time for people in Oldtown. But the prologue tells us that the structure is visible from The Wall (supposedly). I suspect the surprising marriage of Ser Jorah Mormont and Lynesse Hightower is some kind of hint for us about the connection between the Hightower and the North, if not the Wall itself. Because I suspect that GRRM uses puns whenever he gets a chance or an inspiration, I suspect that the Night's Watch is a pun on "watch" and that there is a clock function incorporated in the defense of the Wall that might link back to the Hightower and/or to other structures built by Bran the Builder.