Redemption

[divica]

16 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think so, when Jon & Arya learn the truth - that Theon didn't kill Bran & Rickon, they will, if not forgive him for taking WF, at the least not want him dead for it I would imagine. 

That sounds really unlikely.

Theon betrayed robb. If it wasn t for him the north would have minized the damaged done by the IB. It was him taking winterfell that started the chaos. He is responsable for the death of people from winterfell. If I am not mistaken he killed luwin and another important dude I can t remember. He killed 2 boys...

 

Yeah, ramsay tortured him. But theon desserves death. There is no way that jon, arya, sansa, or any northern can forgive theon.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

28 minutes ago, divica said:

That sounds really unlikely.

Theon betrayed robb. If it wasn t for him the north would have minized the damaged done by the IB. It was him taking winterfell that started the chaos. He is responsable for the death of people from winterfell. If I am not mistaken he killed luwin and another important dude I can t remember. He killed 2 boys...

 

Yeah, ramsay tortured him. But theon desserves death. There is no way that jon, arya, sansa, or any northern can forgive theon.

I don't think Theon taking WF had that big of an impact honestly. What damage was done by the IB? I thought it was minimal & the lot of it was done by Ramsay.  He did betray Robb though so that may be a source of contention between them.  

I thought Ramsay & Co killed Luwin, but maybe I'm remembering wrong. 

Anyway I don't think it's that unlikely after finding out he didn't kill Bran & Rickon, plus the torture he has already endured that they won't want revenge on him. What more could possibly be done to him? 

[divica]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think Theon taking WF had that big of an impact honestly. What damage was done by the IB? I thought it was minimal & the lot of it was done by Ramsay.  He did betray Robb though so that may be a source of contention between them.  

I thought Ramsay & Co killed Luwin, but maybe I'm remembering wrong. 

Anyway I don't think it's that unlikely after finding out he didn't kill Bran & Rickon, plus the torture he has already endured that they won't want revenge on him. What more could possibly be done to him? 

I agree they might not want to kill him given all the punishment he has suffered. 

However they won t want to be near him... 

They would either exile him or send him to the NW. 

Also, Asha might demand theon's survival in order to accept some peace between the north and IB.

So, while they might not kill theon they will never forgive him. 

[Bullrout]

My gravatar is gone!    

Jaime is guilty of the most heinous crime of all and the people don't disrespect him to his face.  The men in your example will never win the hearts of the people but it does not mean they will be shunned.  Tywin was very much disliked for what he did to the Reynes but he was respected. 

[Hugorfonics]

17 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

wow I didn't know that. What an asshole he was. Idk can't take Greek mythology seriously  full of psychos.

Yea, its weird stuff. Some of the stories are cool and inspirational, the less rapey ones, but thats a minority

17 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I specifically answered your questions in regards to Westeros. Otherwise the question, if redemption is possible is more of a philosophical question IMO. And for me personally it's too religious/spiritual. It kinda makes me think of someone sitting in the sky judging us all. So IMO the bad you have done can never be redeemed. The people you have hurt have to live with the consequences of your actions  for the rest of their lives and this can never ever be changed again. That doesn't mean however, that you have to go on hurting even more people, because those are just additional "sins".

So I personally don't believe in redemption, because who is going to decide, if you've been redeemed or not? Other human beings of course. And that's something I dislike. I don't like when humans play god and I don't believe in god and if you've killed a child, this child will stay dead forever, will never grow up, never have the chance to develop and their parents wounds will never heal.

So I don't believe in redemption, but I believe in change and I believe it is never too late to change. The bad will never go away, but you can still use your life for something good and have a positive impact on others. And I also believe in forgiveness, but it's something you aren't entitled to. And sometimes you also have to forgive yourself to be able to move on.

Word. You make good points, but yea. Im not trying to have a philosophical conversation, certainly not about someone sitting in the sky. 

17 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah, but he is blamed the most even when Joffrey shoots commoners with his cross-bow and Cersei is a "brother-fucker" 

Allegedly a brother fucker lol. But yea, crossbow king isnt as bad as the imp. Smallfolk be dumb. When life goes well people think the rulers doing an adequate job, when lifes not people blame their rulers.

Thats what Tyrion was told too, hes the new guy on the block, Joffs just a kid and Cerseis old news. As soon as the Imp started ruling thingd in KL went downhill. Nevermind the fact that its the biggest city in Westeros preparing for Stannis' attack and receiving 0 help from any great lord (i.e. Tyrell blockading the Rose Road from running supplies to KL)

17 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And they also call him the half-man.

So do his wildlings. Its not necessarily a cruel insult. (The men he lead in BW cheered "Halfman")

17 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

of course there is no connection between looks and character! this is just the Westerosi mindset  

Very Star Wars like, although there it was a connection, while here its just assumption

17 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Still won't help with popularity. If Tyrion was unpopular when he left, dunno how he could suddenly be popular, if he came back.

He wasnt popular in KL, or The Vale. And I guess the Riverlands and North. And Doran was kind of a jerk, with that Westeros mindset (like who the hell is he to call someone a hideous monster?), but in the West I think he still has some clout, kinslayer and all.

(When he comes back)

17 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

he had no honor?

Thats one of the only things I like about the NW. Honor is non existent. All that bullshit that lords thrive on, all those dick measuring contests between Jaime and Ned, they dont mean nothing to those who guard the realms of men.

.

"Our honor means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe. Are you a man of the Night's Watch?"

"Yes, but - "

"There is no but, Jon Snow. You are, or you are not."

Jon sat up straight. "I am."

.

 

Its one thing to assume Jon is in need of redemption, and another for Tyrion. Ones a slave to the Wall while the other is an actual human with wants and needs of being loved and recognized. (But, Tyrion doesn't care about that like he used to, and Jon, despite being a slave, is still actually a human lol)

[LynnS]

On 5/10/2020 at 11:12 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Lmao, Catelyns jaw would drop if the kingslayer asked to go to the wall, you know, if her jaw wasnt dropping as is

Oh c'mon.  I think it would be great.  Think about it... Lady Stoneheart is about to hang Jaime and Brienne yells out THE WALL.

Think of all the hijinx that would ensue if Brienne has to escort Jaime in chains to the Wall and the havoc that would occur at the Night Watch when he arrives.  What would Stannis do?  LOL

Jaime will never have his slate cleaned any other way. 

 

[divica]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Oh c'mon.  I think it would be great.  Think about it... Lady Stoneheart is about to hang Jaime and Brienne yells out THE WALL.

Think of all the hijinx that would ensue if Brienne has to escort Jaime in chains to the Wall and the havoc that would occur at the Night Watch when he arrives.  What would Stannis do?  LOL

Jaime will never have his slate cleaned any other way. 

 

I completly agree that Jaime is going to the Wall. If we have a conversation between jon and Jaime about oats and honnor in the next book it would be a very high point for me. They are 2 very diferent characters that are burdened with the same problems. I think it would be fascinating to see what they think about each others decisions.

 

And on the other hand we need a pov like Jaime on the Wall. Someone that can evaluate how good the NW and wildlings are at fighting, that can give advice about how other Southern armies can be used, that has experience in warfare, that can compare jon to other fighters or rulers...

ps If they are escorting Jaime to the Wall I very much hope that their first pov chapter is them being on a boat a few days away from eastwatch and Jaime recalling how he got there. I have no desire to read another series of chapters about characters travelling through the riverlands...

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, divica said:

I completly agree that Jaime is going to the Wall. If we have a conversation between jon and Jaime about oats and honnor in the next book it would be a very high point for me. They are 2 very diferent characters that are burdened with the same problems. I think it would be fascinating to see what they think about each others decisions.

 

And on the other hand we need a pov like Jaime on the Wall. Someone that can evaluate how good the NW and wildlings are at fighting, that can give advice about how other Southern armies can be used, that has experience in warfare, that can compare jon to other fighters or rulers...

ps If they are escorting Jaime to the Wall I very much hope that their first pov chapter is them being on a boat a few days away from eastwatch and Jaime recalling how he got there. I have no desire to read another series of chapters about characters travelling through the riverlands...

Beautiful!  I agree completely.  I also think that Jaime will fill the role of the shied in the oath of the NW.  The Sword (Jon),the Shield (Jaime) and the Horn (Sam).

Shields come up a lot in Jaime's POV.  Here's one that I find interesting:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

The table itself was old weirwood, pale as bone, carved in the shape of a huge shield supported by three white stallions. By tradition the Lord Commander sat at the top of the shield, and the brothers three to a side, on the rare occasions when all seven were assembled. The book that rested by his elbow was massive; two feet tall and a foot and a half wide, a thousand pages thick, fine white vellum bound between covers of bleached white leather with gold hinges and fastenings. The Book of the Brothers was its formal name, but more often it was simply called the White Book.

Within the White Book was the history of the Kingsguard. Every knight who'd ever served had a page, to record his name and deeds for all time. On the top left-hand corner of each page was drawn the shield the man had carried at the time he was chosen, inked in rich colors. Down in the bottom right corner was the shield of the Kingsguard; snow-white, empty, pure. The upper shields were all different; the lower shields were all the same. In the space between were written the facts of each man's life and service. The heraldic drawings and illuminations were done by septons sent from the Great Sept of Baelor three times a year, but it was the duty of the Lord Commander to keep the entries up to date.

My duty, now. Once he learned to write with his left hand, that is. The White Book was well behind. The deaths of Ser Mandon Moore and Ser Preston Greenfield needed to be entered, and the brief bloody Kingsguard service of Sandor Clegane as well. New pages must be started for Ser Balon Swann, Ser Osmund Kettleblack, and the Knight of Flowers. I will need to summon a septon to draw their shields.

Ser Barristan Selmy had preceded Jaime as Lord Commander. The shield atop his page showed the arms of House Selmy: three stalks of wheat, yellow, on a brown field. Jaime was amused, though unsurprised, to find that Ser Barristan had taken the time to record his own dismissal before leaving the castle.

Ser Barristan of House Selmy. Firstborn son of Ser Lyonel Selmy of Harvest Hall. Served as squire to Ser Manfred Swann. Named "the Bold" in his 10th year, when he donned borrowed armor to appear as a mystery knight in the tourney at Blackhaven, where he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies. Knighted in his 16th year by King Aegon V Targaryen, after performing great feats of prowess as a mystery knight in the winter tourney at King's Landing, defeating Prince Duncan the Small and Ser Duncan the Tall, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Slew Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Defeated Lormelle Long Lance and Cedrik Storm, the Bastard of Bronzegate. Named to the Kingsguard in his 23rd year, by Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower. Defended the passage against all challengers in the tourney of the Silver Bridge. Victor in the mêlée at Maidenpool. Brought King Aerys II to safety during the Defiance of Duskendale, despite an arrow wound in the chest. Avenged the murder of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt. Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, and slaying the former. In the Oldtown tourney, defeated and unmasked the mystery knight Blackshield, revealing him as the Bastard of Uplands. Sole champion of Lord Steffon's tourney at Storm's End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Wounded by arrow, spear, and sword at the Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his Sworn Brothers and Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone. Pardoned, and named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, by King Robert I Baratheon. Served in the honor guard that brought Lady Cersei of House Lannister to King's Landing to wed King Robert. Led the attack on Old Wyk during Balon Greyjoy's Rebellion. Champion of the tourney at King's Landing, in his 57th year. Dismissed from service by King Joffrey I baratheon in his 61st year, for reasons of advanced age.

The earlier part of Ser Barristan's storied career had been entered by Ser Gerold Hightower in a big forceful hand. Selmy's own smaller and more elegant writing took over with the account of his wounding on the Trident.

Jaime's own page was scant by comparison.

Ser Jaime of House Lannister. Firstborn son of Lord Tywin and Lady Joanna of Casterly Rock. Served against the Kingswood Brotherhood as squire to Lord Summer Crakehall. Knighted in his 15th year by Ser Arthur Dayne of the Kingsguard, for valor in the field. Chosen for the Kingsguard in his 15th year by King Aerys II Targaryen. During the Sack of King's Landing, slew King Aerys II at the foot of the Iron Throne. Thereafter known as the "Kingslayer." Pardoned for his crime by King Robert I Baratheon. Served in the honor guard that brought his sister the Lady Cersei Lannister to King's Landing to wed King Robert. Champion in the tourney held at King's Landing on the occasion of their wedding.

Summed up like that, his life seemed a rather scant and mingy thing. Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least. And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.

 

I think this is actually a turning point for Jaime.  And I think it will be Brienne who writes his deeds in the White Book.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh c'mon.  I think it would be great.  Think about it... Lady Stoneheart is about to hang Jaime and Brienne yells out THE WALL.

I think itd be great too. Just funny because Lady Stark should be, under normal conditions, happy to send men to the wall.

Jaime was once sitting down being judged by Ned, now his wifes got the chance, but what basis can LSH hang him on?(or send to the Wall) Hyle Hunt makes sense, he rolled with Randyll. He must have faced and caused some horror. Brienne, she looks so damn guilty.

But what has Jaime done? Since swearing to Cat he hasnt stopped looking for the girls, nor as he raised arms against Stark or Tully.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Think of all the hijinx that would ensue if Brienne has to escort Jaime in chains to the Wall

I dont see Brienne going north. The Brotherhood knows Arya was alive recently and are actively searching for Sandor, Brienne will probably pick up the trail then. (God they were so close. Arrest the Septon, listen to him sing and bam! He knows where Sandor is)

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

the havoc that would occur at the Night Watch when he arrives.  What would Stannis do?  LOL

Jaime will never have his slate cleaned any other way. 

What could Stannis do? Lord Snow treated with him on equal grounds, he cant just start killing his men. Lord Snow might be a little suspect about Jaime, then again the very idea or existence of Lord Snow is also a little suspect.

There is one northerner who might be a little peeved. If he ever leaves his tree, well that's the Stark who needs to judge whether Jaime can have his clean slate or not

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

And I think it will be Brienne who writes his deeds in the White Book.

I think thats likely 

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think itd be great too. Just funny because Lady Stark should be, under normal conditions, happy to send men to the wall.

I think she would be happier hanging him.  Look what happened to Brienne.  She actually thinks that an oath made to someone who ends up dead is doubly binding.  I don't think anyone on LSH band will be too thrilled with Jaime.  He isn't exactly looking for Sansa or Arya.  

Quote

Jaime travels to Raventree Hall and negotiates Lord Tytos Blackwood's surrender, officially ending House Stark's insurrection. In the aftermath, he is approached by Brienne, who claims that Sansa is in danger from Sandor "The Hound" Clegane.[17] It is unknown how much of this is true, as Brienne was previously seen as a prisoner of a reanimated Catelyn Stark and the anti-Lannister Brotherhood Without Banners.

Brienne is likely to feel guilty about bringing Jaime in for justice and vengeance under false pretenses..  She has to be the one to get him out of his dilemma.

40 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont see Brienne going north. The Brotherhood knows Arya was alive recently and are actively searching for Sandor, Brienne will probably pick up the trail then. (God they were so close. Arrest the Septon, listen to him sing and bam! He knows where Sandor is)

Sure that's another possibility and she may pick up Arya's trail again at the Saltpans.  Which may send her across the sea to Braavos if the Titan's Daughter is moored there for trade.

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What could Stannis do? Lord Snow treated with him on equal grounds, he cant just start killing his men. Lord Snow might be a little suspect about Jaime, then again the very idea or existence of Lord Snow is also a little suspect.

There is one northerner who might be a little peeved. If he ever leaves his tree, well that's the Stark who needs to judge whether Jaime can have his clean slate or not

There is not much Stannis can do to stop Jaime from joining the Watch. As Divica points out, Jaime is a ready made Lord Commander. I'm not sure that Bran will be peeved.  Jaime at the Wall could serve his purposes.  What would Mel think and what would Jaime think of Mel after his paradigm shifting encounter with undead Catelyn?

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

What we have are people who have reasons to hate one another.  Winter is coming though and it is one of the many existential threats to survival.  The people who have wisdom can let the past go to increase the chances of survival.  While the foolish will continue to hold on to the grudge.  These people will cause more harm instead of doing good.  People like Jon, Arya, Ramsay, Jaime, Wayman, Doran, and the Sand Snakes will cause more chaos right when order is needed.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I think she would be happier hanging him. 

I dont think so. She wants her kids back and the ones responsible for their deaths to die. Jaime is not responsible, but can get Catelyns daughters back

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Look what happened to Brienne.  

She didnt hang Brienne

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

She actually thinks that an oath made to someone who ends up dead is doubly binding.

Idk about doubly, but why shouldn't it be binding?

Quote

The tall girl knelt awkwardly, unsheathed Renly's longsword, and laid it at her feet. "Then I am yours, my lady. Your liege man, or . . . whatever you would have me be. I will shield your back and keep your counsel and give my life for yours, if need be. I swear it by the old gods and the new."

"And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table, and pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you into dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new. Arise."

They say alarming stuff (some Stannis stuff too thats not included here) but never till death do us part.

Berics men were happy to keep their allegiance, death after death

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't think anyone on LSH band will be too thrilled with Jaime. 

Me neither

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

He isn't exactly looking for Sansa or Arya.  

He sent and supplied Brienne to look for em

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

  Brienne is likely to feel guilty about bringing Jaime in for justice and vengeance

What vengance though? What crimes has Jaime done since the last time Catelyn was able to kill him?

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

under false pretenses.. 

Misleading pretenses, but not false. She found the trail that leads to Arya

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that Bran will be peeved. 

Jaime scares the hell out of him

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Jaime at the Wall could serve his purposes.  

Possibly

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

What would Mel think and what would Jaime think of Mel after his paradigm shifting encounter with undead Catelyn?

That Catelyns Azor Ahai? And hopefully not that shes looking for Arya to Nissa Nissa

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont think so. She wants her kids back and the ones responsible for their deaths to die. Jaime is not responsible, but can get Catelyns daughters back

Going back to Brienne who was dutifully looking for Sansa and Arya; LSH was hanging her and gave her a choice.  Brienne chose the sword.  As for Jaime, because Caitlyn hates Lannisters.  She may or may not know that Jaime tossed Bran out the window.

I'm not sure that Bran will be afraid of him now.  He tells Jon as much at the Skirling Pass.  He says he's not afraid anymore.

I can see Brienne taking Jaime as far as the Saltpans where he could take a ship to East Watch and picking up Arya's trail there and going to Essos.  I think Catelyn already knows that Arya has passed through and isn't at Winterfell.

I'll try to find Brienne's quote where she says specifically that she has to continue her quest because an oath to the dead cannot be dismissed once the person has died.  I think this is something she tells Jaime and it's the reason he lets her continue as his proxy.  

 

 

[LynnS]

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne II

She had spoken of Arya too, her younger daughter, but Arya was lost, most likely dead by now. Sansa, though . . . I will find her, my lady, Brienne swore to Lady Catelyn's restless shade. I will never stop looking. I will give up my life if need be, give up my honor, give up all my dreams, but I will find her.

I know there is another but I can't find it at the moment.

ETA: Here it is:
 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

Jaime would not do that. He was sincere. He gave me the sword, and called it Oathkeeper. Anyway, it made no matter. She had promised Lady Catelyn that she would bring back her daughters, and no promise was as solemn as one sworn to the dead. The younger girl was long dead, Jaime claimed; the Arya the Lannisters sent north to marry Roose Bolton's bastard was a fraud. That left only Sansa. Brienne had to find her.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

That Catelyns Azor Ahai? And hopefully not that shes looking for Arya to Nissa Nissa

No, I meant Jaime will be seeing someone who is undead for the first time.  That's will be quite a shock.

Lady Stoneheart isn't as rational as Catelyn.  She's bloodthirsty.  She isn't going to forgive Jaime for phoning in his vow and shucking it off to Brienne.  He only gets off pushing Bran out the window because he made the vow to find Sansa and Arya.  

As far as LSH is concerned it's time to pay up. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

that she has to continue her quest because an oath to the dead cannot be dismissed once the person has died.

I agree. A promise is a promise

42 minutes ago, LynnS said:

No, I meant Jaime will be seeing someone who is undead for the first time.  That's will be quite a shock.

He'll get used to it

43 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Lady Stoneheart isn't as rational as Catelyn.  She's bloodthirsty. 

Shes a bit bloodthirsty, but she seems as rational as ever. Her main goal is finding her kids, vengeance is secondary. And Cat does good things still, like running an orphanage in the Riverlands

47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 She isn't going to forgive Jaime for phoning in his vow and shucking it off to Brienne. 

What more can he do? Hes trying his best.

And he has kept up the other part of his vow, not raising arms against Stark or Tully

52 minutes ago, LynnS said:

As far as LSH is concerned it's time to pay up. 

But not with Jaimes life. Thatd bring dishonor to Brienne, which Cat swore to never do. Plus killing Jaime has nothing to do with anything, it wont bring Robb back nor bring him vengeance 

[Son of Man]

5 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

What we have are people who have reasons to hate one another.  Winter is coming though and it is one of the many existential threats to survival.  The people who have wisdom can let the past go to increase the chances of survival.  While the foolish will continue to hold on to the grudge.  These people will cause more harm instead of doing good.  People like Jon, Arya, Ramsay, Jaime, Wayman, Doran, and the Sand Snakes will cause more chaos right when order is needed.

The Stark-Lannister feud will resume as soon as the wolfies get some power back.  I want to see what Bran will do to Jaime. 

[Ivan Tsarevich]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

She may or may not know that Jaime tossed Bran out the window.

Live Catelyn sure knew, it was one of her questions in the RR cell scene. Jaime told her point-blank. ACoK, Catelyn VII.

Quote

Jaime drank some more wine. "Ask your next."

Catelyn wondered if he would dare answer her next question with anything but a lie. "How did my son Bran come to fall?"

"I flung him from a window."

The easy way he said it took her voice away for an instant. If I had a knife, I would kill him now, she thought, until she remembered the girls. Her throat constricted as she said, "You were a knight, sworn to defend the weak and innocent."

If your meaning is Lady Stoneheart not knowing/remembering everything Cat did or you already checked yourself, well, pardon my intrusion.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

Live Catelyn sure knew, it was one of her questions in the RR cell scene. Jaime told her point-blank. ACoK, Catelyn VII.

If your meaning is Lady Stoneheart not knowing/remembering everything Cat did or you already checked yourself, well, pardon my intrusion.

Thanks, I thought I fixed that.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 5/16/2020 at 12:01 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

I agree with a lot of what you've said, but you know, Dany is responsible for the death of a lot of people as well, also 13 year old children. And somehow she is fit for ruling, but Jon Snow isn't ? And Arya a traumatized little girl, who had to survive, is supposed to be never forgiven? Sounds like a double standard to me.

We are all somewhat biased.  Daenerys is my favorite person within the novels.  She is the one I want to see win at the end.  There are others on this forum who feel the opposite.  Just browse the forum and you will run into a post or two that are bashing Daenerys Targaryen.    

Jon and Arya are serving the interests of their family instead of the greater good.  Daenerys is at least serving the interest of helping the slaves become free.  She was unselfish enough to give up her ambitions for Westeros to help the slaves win their freedom.  She was willing to take care of the greater good instead of what she wants to do.  Compare that to Robb Stark who selfishly chose what he wanted to do instead of the greater good.  Jon, who took illegal steps to save his sister even if that meant putting the lives of the whole of Westeros in danger.  It is clear to me which leader I would choose.  I want Daenerys Targryen to rule Westeros in the end.