The Locked Tomb Trilogy by Tamsyn Muir

[Xray the Enforcer]

I cannot remember who said it in this thread, but I had suspected the same thing:

Spoiler

Specifically that the Nine Houses are set on each of the nine "planets" (or one of their moons) in our Solar System. The phrasing about how the Ninth House was never meant to stick around and is an illegitimate house according to lore. The description of the Ninth House -- extremely cold, dimly lit, miserable food crops -- plus the fact that it's not a "real" House makes me think of Pluto and its changeable status as a planet. 

All of that said, the whole structure breaks down once you start to think about it too hard, so who knows? I'm stalled about halfway through HtN purely because I got distracted by "Moody British Murder Mysteries" TV shows (Broadchurch, Endeavor, etc). 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Xray the Enforcer

[karaddin]

Yeah after Gideon I was suspecting that would be the case as well. Harrow spoilers below

Spoiler

I don't think it was outright confirmed right? But very heavily implied to the point I've just decided it's the case and have seen pretty good mapping of houses to planets. The first is of course Earth if this is right, the second Mars and I'm forgetting the rest. There's definitely a mention of one of the houses being close enough to Dominicus (their name for the star) to be on Mercury. I think it was the fifth.

What I can't get a solid handle on is whether the Emperor caused the death of the human race before resurrecting it, or there is a legitimate external enemy that did it. Whichever is the case, his power is pretty clearly not a Wizard of Oz situation and I accept the stars life is tied to his. Which greatly limits options in defeating him.

 

[Maia]

Finished Harrow and liked it overall, though I found Gideon's voice to be more engaging. Also, Muir's love of inserting pop-culture/out of place memes and similes that didn't bother me with Gideon, really bothered me with Harrow. I mean, neither of them should know what an ice-cream, ticket, etc. is, but at least Gideon could have gotten some of that from her comics' - which also it wasn't ever explained how she was getting them, but eh, it is now clear that these inclusions are just the author's thing.

I was very confused about the flashbacks at first, of course, but the eventual reveal worked for me. OTOH, I am still not wholly clear about some of the other plots.

 

9 hours ago, karaddin said:

Yeah after Gideon I was suspecting that would be the case as well.

Yea, though I still don't understand who the enemies of the Houses outside the system are and how they got there. Or, for that matter, if the First House (Earth) was destroyed by nuclear war, why did the sun need to be re-ignited? Harrow the Ninth spoilers:

Spoiler

 

The Emperor going by John _Gaius_ is also a strong hint that the First House planet was Earth. Which makes me think that Alecto is Earth's soul/Ressurection Beast in human form, and if so John might not have much choice about prosecuting his revenge. Alecto originally being one of the Erynies and her name signifying "unceasing or implacable anger". Also, the Erynies were ephemystically called "The Kindly Ones" and one of John's epithetes is "the Kindly Prince", hm...

But how did those other humans whom the Cohort keeps fighting spread among the stars if FTL doesn't work in this universe and neither do wormholes?

I don't wholly understand the convoluted plot around Gideon Jr.'s creation - so Mercymorn and Augustine wanted Commander Wake to check on Alecto and provided her with John's sperm, embryos and ova. But Mercy sabotaged the embryos and ova for some reason? Why? And how was Wake supposed to get through the intricate and plentiful necromantic traps to get to the bloodward? Speaking of which, if all you need is to kill a person's relative to overcome their bloodward, it is a really weak-sauce protection. I also don't understand why, if Gideon Sr. stayed his hand for a time because he thought that the child was his, he didn't subsequently check on it?

Moving on, Mercy apparently continued to work with the Blood of Eden and was the one to "disappear" the other survivors of the previous book and Gideon's body, as well as the one who arranged Harrow's meeting with Camilla and Co (and transported their shuttle there and back). So, why did she try to kill Harrow during the Beast's attack?

Also, why did Harrow N°1 instruct her lobotomised self to treat the sword in the ways which strengthened Wake's revenant and allowed her bid at posession of Harrow N°2's body, as well as all the shenangians with Cytherea's corpse? And what's the deal with the seemingly  pre-existing agreement between Harrow and the Six House peeps that strongly hinted at all of them having been anti-regime revolutionaries? At no point in Harrow's or Gideon's PoVs did she seem anything but a loyal subject of the Emperor.

I also don't feel that the revelation about John's lies was a sufficient reason to destroy the population of a whole solar system to get rid of him. Ianthe's decision was a natural and logical one for somebody who still had people she cared about there and/or was opposed to genociding all the Houses. I don't understand why either Augustine or Gideon Jr. would have expected anything different. Oh, sure, Augustine hinted at something more weighty and nefarious, but he never explained, so...

It is also a pity that the narrative seems to be going in "necromancy is bad and needs to be eradicated" direction. It was  fun and original how normal and helpful it was in that setting, unlike pretty much any other depiction of it.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by Maia

[kairparavel]

On 8/11/2020 at 7:55 PM, kairparavel said:

I'm patiently waiting on my Harrow loan from the library. Early on in Gideon I was very much WTF is going on here. I decided I wasn't going to worry about what I didn't get and as I moved on my enjoyment went up immensely. I was loving it by the end. 

 

I am a little over quarter of the way through Harrow and I very much have no idea WTAF is going on. But onwards I go.

 

[karaddin]

On 8/29/2020 at 7:50 AM, kairparavel said:

 

I am a little over quarter of the way through Harrow and I very much have no idea WTAF is going on. But onwards I go.

 

That's what hooked me so hard! I didn't know what was going on, but clearly something was going on!

[kairparavel]

Spoiler

72% in and FINALLY the name Gideon is mentioned. 

Also, 72% in I STILL HAVE NO IDEA WTF IS GOING. 

--

Finished. Going to marinate on it for a bit.

---------

If I were to rate this book it would get 2.5-3/5 for the roughly first 75%, with a 5/5 for soup. For the next 25% 4/5 for things happening on the ship (5/5 for the POV voice, 3/5 for the action), 2/5 for things not happening on the ship, and a 1/5 for the epilogue.

I enjoy books that make me think, that keep me guessing, that have me coming up with theories and cracking the mystery. This was not that book. The work of re-aligning myself each time there was a shift from past to present required entirely too much 'mapping' and trying to keep up with what was going on was without joy or anticipation. When the What is going on? overshadows the actual action on the page to the point of distraction, you end up with this book. Also I was disappointed that the one thing I was actively looking forward to never happened. It was explained but it didn't lessen my disappointment. 

Alecto the Ninth has a lot to answer to. I hope it does and that I don't wind up hate-reading it.

Edited September 7, 2020 by kairparavel
What did I just read?

[karaddin]

What were you looking forward to?

I felt like I'd get a lot out of a reread and saw comments that the audio books are quite good so decided to give that a try. Fairly early in Gt9 it's already seeding things that pay off at the end of Gt9 so I won't be surprised if there's similar revelations in At9.

Spoiler

The first time Gideon runs into "Dulcinea" alone there's a very deliberate point made of Cytherea asking her to take off her sunglasses so she can see Gideon's eyes. I parsed this as flirting the first time through but it's clearly the point she immediately puts it all together the second time.

The comment about the audiobook was that it helps Ht9 is the different voices used by the reader help make it more clear what's going on and who is saying what.

[kairparavel]

@karaddin

I was hoping for some 

Spoiler

Gideon and Harrow internal dialogue. I didn't expect it would last all book or anything but just a nice goodbye to Gideon as Harrow becomes an all powerful Lyctor.

I realize this is more about my expectations and that too bad for me that the author didn't give me something I wanted. But coupled with my frustration of keeping track of everything, I am made a big whiny baby. 

I am certain a re-read will smooth over my pouty face but that will wait until the final book comes out, I think. 

[karaddin]

Now that you mention it I actually wanted that as well going into it, I got so confused by what was going on I'd forgotten that I'd wanted it but not got it 

[Eric Cartman]

I think we all can agree that Gideon is by far a better character than Harrow. Let's see how Alecto fares. 

Edited September 25, 2020 by Eric Cartman

[felice]

Spoiler

On 8/20/2020 at 10:47 PM, Maia said:

Finished Harrow and liked it overall, though I found Gideon's voice to be more engaging. Also, Muir's love of inserting pop-culture/out of place memes and similes that didn't bother me with Gideon, really bothered me with Harrow. I mean, neither of them should know what an ice-cream, ticket, etc. is, but at least Gideon could have gotten some of that from her comics' - which also it wasn't ever explained how she was getting them, but eh, it is now clear that these inclusions are just the author's thing.

Of course, most of "Harrow the Ninth" is told from Gideon's PoV, though that isn't made explicit till quite late in the book. Though that isn't relevant to dialogue, or the scenes in Harrow's bubble. Personally, I find some of the references hilarious (the coffee shop AU!).

On 8/20/2020 at 10:47 PM, Maia said:

The Emperor going by John _Gaius_ is also a strong hint that the First House planet was Earth. Which makes me think that Alecto is Earth's soul/Ressurection Beast in human form

Hmmm... if that was the case, he'd have to have killed Earth before becoming God. I'm not sure how that would work timeline-wise, but having a zombie planet as cavalier would explain why he's so powerful. Mercy does mistake Gideon for "First", presumably the first Resurrection Beast, so that does make sense.

On 8/20/2020 at 10:47 PM, Maia said:

But how did those other humans whom the Cohort keeps fighting spread among the stars if FTL doesn't work in this universe and neither do wormholes?

It works, it's just the first type is "a snare" whatever that means, and the Houses have steles for FTL as well as lyctors being able to travel via the river. It's not clear if non-House forces are able to use steles, but they must have some kind of FTL, as do resurrection beasts.

On 8/20/2020 at 10:47 PM, Maia said:

I don't wholly understand the convoluted plot around Gideon Jr.'s creation - so Mercymorn and Augustine wanted Commander Wake to check on Alecto and provided her with John's sperm, embryos and ova. But Mercy sabotaged the embryos and ova for some reason? Why? And how was Wake supposed to get through the intricate and plentiful necromantic traps to get to the bloodward? Speaking of which, if all you need is to kill a person's relative to overcome their bloodward, it is a really weak-sauce protection.

I'm not sure if the ova death was sabotage or something just went wrong unexpectedly. Wake was presumably given instructions on how to get around the traps, or she was just very, very good at dealing with that sort of thing. You'd be pretty confident in the security of the bloodward if all your relatives had been dead for at least a century before you created it, and over the next ten thousand years you were absolutely certain you didn't have any children.

On 8/20/2020 at 10:47 PM, Maia said:

I also don't understand why, if Gideon Sr. stayed his hand for a time because he thought that the child was his, he didn't subsequently check on it?

I'd guess he realised the kid wasn't his as soon as it was born. But he'd see no need to kill an innocent child once the mother was out of the way. He didn't know what would happen when Harrow got her hands on the kid's blood years later...

On 8/20/2020 at 10:47 PM, Maia said:

So, why did she try to kill Harrow during the Beast's attack?

I think she was just trying to give a doomed kid a mercifully quick death?

On 8/20/2020 at 10:47 PM, Maia said:

Also, why did Harrow N°1 instruct her lobotomised self to treat the sword in the ways which strengthened Wake's revenant and allowed her bid at posession of Harrow N°2's body, as well as all the shenangians with Cytherea's corpse?

I don't think Harrow N°1 knew what the sword was, she just had suspicions something was up, and the treatment was supposed to isolate it, not strengthen the revenant. I think Wake possessed her and stabbed Cytherea's corpse with the sword before Harrow got round to coating the blade with bone, which was how Wake was able to animate Cytherea?

On 8/20/2020 at 10:47 PM, Maia said:

I also don't feel that the revelation about John's lies was a sufficient reason to destroy the population of a whole solar system to get rid of him.

We don't know the full story yet, but it is possible Mercy and Augustine have somewhat skewed priorities.

On 9/10/2020 at 12:29 PM, kairparavel said:

I was hoping for some Gideon and Harrow internal dialogue. I didn't expect it would last all book or anything but just a nice goodbye to Gideon as Harrow becomes an all powerful Lyctor.

I think what we got is better! It's established that they can both continue to exist after all, with John's cavalier being a full independent lyctor (or another god?) and the Saint of Duty's cavalier surviving inside his body for ten thousand years. I'd expect more Harrow/Gideon interaction in the third book.

 

 

[williamjm]

On 9/6/2020 at 12:16 AM, kairparavel said:

  Reveal hidden contents

72% in and FINALLY the name Gideon is mentioned. 

 

Finished. Going to marinate on it for a bit.

---------

If I were to rate this book it would get 2.5-3/5 for the roughly first 75%, with a 5/5 for soup. For the next 25% 4/5 for things happening on the ship (5/5 for the POV voice, 3/5 for the action), 2/5 for things not happening on the ship, and a 1/5 for the epilogue.

I enjoy books that make me think, that keep me guessing, that have me coming up with theories and cracking the mystery. This was not that book. The work of re-aligning myself each time there was a shift from past to present required entirely too much 'mapping' and trying to keep up with what was going on was without joy or anticipation. When the What is going on? overshadows the actual action on the page to the point of distraction, you end up with this book. Also I was disappointed that the one thing I was actively looking forward to never happened. It was explained but it didn't lessen my disappointment.

Having finished the book yesterday I think I'd agree with a lot of your ratings. It's definitely one of the stranger books I've read recently.

There were some bits I really liked. Harrow's culinary efforts did lead to one of the more memorable fictional meals I can think of. Ortus conjuring up the ghost of Matthias Nonius should have been ridiculous but I suppose if you are in a dreamworld why shouldn't that sort of thing work? I think the ghost asking why he was speaking in metre made the scene.

While the flashbacks were disconcerting due to the confusion about what was going on I did like that we got to spend a bit more time with some of the characters we didn't see much of in the first book. In GtN Abigail Pent had been built up as someone with a big reputation so it was nice to see her in action. Ortus was also a more interesting character than when he saw him before his death.

I realise she may have been desperate and without much in the way of good choices but I'm not sure why Harrow thought her plan was going to work. It did seem to rely on the Emperor and her fellow lyctors not being curious enough to really try to work out what had happened to Harrow. It is probably in character for Mercymorn to not really care enough to exert the effort to work out what Harrow had done to herself but Harrow couldn't have known that. I also think it's very convenient for the plot that it means that nobody sees Gideon's eyes until the final stage of the novel.

I agree with the speculation above that the Dominicus system is our solar system. I did wonder if the Edenites might be descended from people who had fled the dying system before the Resurrection, there is a line where the Emperor comments that they shouldn't be indignant about what happened to something they had abandoned.

[karaddin]

On 10/15/2020 at 8:54 AM, felice said:

  Hide contents

Of course, most of "Harrow the Ninth" is told from Gideon's PoV, though that isn't made explicit till quite late in the book. Though that isn't relevant to dialogue, or the scenes in Harrow's bubble. Personally, I find some of the references hilarious (the coffee shop AU!).

 

Yeah I loved that even more in my "reread" with the audiobook, 

Spoiler

Just starting into the AU, Gideon the amazing Bari Star and Pent comes swooping in all "nope!"

Quote

Spoiler

Hmmm... if that was the case, he'd have to have killed Earth before becoming God. I'm not sure how that would work timeline-wise, but having a zombie planet as cavalier would explain why he's so powerful. Mercy does mistake Gideon for "First", presumably the first Resurrection Beast, so that does make sense.

 

I'm pretty sure that

Spoiler

This is still in line with the information given. Its still pretty unclear exactly what happened and whether John caused it or merely responded to it. Alecto was definitely the "first" resurrection and a significant amount of time elapsed between Alecto and Augustine's resurrections. If Alecto isn't the resurrection beast for Earth (which is still my first pick) then I'm guessing she's like Harrow only instead of 200 souls its billions of souls. John only resurrected a fraction of those lost when Sol died. In Alecto's case I'd say it was way too many for it to form a stable and coherent person, but an awful lot of raw power. This would make Teacher from Gideon the Ninth a prototype at doing the same thing at a much smaller scale but stable and then Harrow is realising that potential as a fully functioning person built from 200 souls.

I've seen speculation that Anastasia is actually still alive and hidden in Drearburgh and assisted with the creation of Harrow, as John seemed pretty convinced her parents shouldn't have been capable of it - we saw in Canaan house that there's a big gap in necromantic knowledge between those that studied Lyctorhood and everyone else.

Quote

Spoiler

We don't know the full story yet, but it is possible Mercy and Augustine have somewhat skewed priorities.

 

Yeah

Spoiler

100% agreed on this point. I agree with Ianthe's move to save John, killing the solar system isn't justified or productive at that point but they've just realised the scope of the betrayal and are consumed by the weight of 10,000 years of having committed the most profound sin and killing/consuming their partners. Its entirely personal revenge and the deaths have lost importance to them after all that time.

Quote

Spoiler

I think what we got is better! It's established that they can both continue to exist after all, with John's cavalier being a full independent lyctor (or another god?) and the Saint of Duty's cavalier surviving inside his body for ten thousand years. I'd expect more Harrow/Gideon interaction in the third book.

 

We even have 

Spoiler

Pretty good reason to think that not only did we get to keep Gideon (who is also my favourite character, I was worried she was going to be gone as well) in her devoured spirit but that even her body is alive and well. She's God's daughter and has refused to die multiple times, BoE have her body and its the #1 candidate for the vessel in the epilogue. My bet is on that being Alecto in her body while Camilla and Pal think its either Gideon or Harrow, but I think Gideon is still in Harrow's body and Harrow is in the river bubble Giden survived in and connected to/will end up in Alecto's body.

We'll see a 3-way lyctorhood of some kind between Harrow, Gideon and Alecto in the last book is my prediction! No idea how that works when she's also in a 2-way bond with God.

 

[HexMachina]

I had a free audiobook credit so bought Gideon the Ninth. I wish I had checked this thread first as I'd have realised beforehand it's something I'm going to need to read to fully understand. I'm enjoying it so far but finding I need to keep relistening to parts to be sure I've made sense of what's going on

[karaddin]

9 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I had a free audiobook credit so bought Gideon the Ninth. I wish I had checked this thread first as I'd have realised beforehand it's something I'm going to need to read to fully understand. I'm enjoying it so far but finding I need to keep relistening to parts to be sure I've made sense of what's going on

I did really enjoy the audiobook though, it's great. But yeah Id miss a lot if it was the first read through. It's excellent for spotting hints that are scattered through the book like bread crumbs for what follows.

[HexMachina]

20 hours ago, karaddin said:

I did really enjoy the audiobook though, it's great. But yeah Id miss a lot if it was the first read through. It's excellent for spotting hints that are scattered through the book like bread crumbs for what follows.

Oh for sure, I'm really enjoying the narrative and the way it's narrated. I'm especially enjoying the voice that gets used for Gideon, it really sells her somewhat cocky anti-authproty attitude. it's just difficult to follow as an audiobook without any real knowledge or context of the story beforehand. I will definitely be buying the book to read once I finish the audiobook

[karaddin]

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Oh for sure, I'm really enjoying the narrative and the way it's narrated. I'm especially enjoying the voice that gets used for Gideon, it really sells her somewhat cocky anti-authproty attitude. it's just difficult to follow as an audiobook without any real knowledge or context of the story beforehand. I will definitely be buying the book to read once I finish the audiobook

I think my favourite is the terrible teens "oh no maagnuss, don't mention us"

[karaddin]

27 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Haha I’m about 1/4th though the first book    And those teens are a riot 

Have they asked

Spoiler

To see Gideon's biceps yet?

That's the most minor spoiler ever, relates to the dinner party.

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

I just read that! This book is just a riot in all the best ways yet also gruesome at the same time.

I haven’t been this blown away by a debut authors prose since Abercrombie

I get that its a style that's too grounded in current slang, meme trends etc for some people and it may hurt the way it ages, but it absolutely works for me. It also makes it a useful snapshot of culture from this time even as it does age.

[HexMachina]

On 11/22/2020 at 12:41 AM, karaddin said:

I think my favourite is the terrible teens "oh no maagnuss, don't mention us"

They are golden and the audio for them is great too.

"Magnooooooooseeee"