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James Steller

Whose death was most satisfying?

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Call it sadism, call it schadenfreude, but which character’s demise did you actually enjoy reading?

For me, it was Tywin Lannister. The man who did so much cruelty over the course of his life, who hypocritically talked about the importance of family while outright abusing his own son, is killed on the toilet by Tyrion, mocked as he has a deeply undignified death. Not to mention his farce of a funeral. I’d almost say it was the justice of the gods if I was so inclined.

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Posted (edited)

I can give you a few.  Mirri Maaz Duur, Joffrey, Weymar, and Harma Dog's Head.

Something about Weymar turned me off.  He's an arrogant punk. He should have listened to the veteran.  Dumb kid. 

Edited by Pontius Pilate

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56 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Call it sadism, call it schadenfreude, but which character’s demise did you actually enjoy reading?

For me, it was Tywin Lannister. The man who did so much cruelty over the course of his life, who hypocritically talked about the importance of family while outright abusing his own son, is killed on the toilet by Tyrion, mocked as he has a deeply undignified death. Not to mention his farce of a funeral. I’d almost say it was the justice of the gods if I was so inclined.

Same I was happy that monster got his. 
 

Also that guy who stabbed Rhaenys, Rhaegar’s daughter. Him crying like a little bitch while getting feed to a bear was so very good. 

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A very major theme in A Song of Ice and Fire is that death should never be "satisfying." Most if not all instances of purportedly righteous deaths and other forms of comeuppance are carefully constructed and implemented for two primary reasons: firstly, to pervert wish fulfillment and thereby illustrate that vindictiveness is never warranted; and secondly, to demonstrate that vengeance is shortsighted and universally detrimental, and that justice should be pursued.

 

There are countless examples to this end, but two major ones are commonly cited for this phenomenon. No doubt most readers hoped that Theon Greyjoy would be taught a lesson after his chapters in A Clash of Kings... and Ramsay Snow gave him one, in the most horrifying way. The even more abhorrent and significantly more disproportionate fate is that of Jeyne Poole, who suffered unimaginable abuse at Ramsay's hands; she had at one point in A Game of Thrones commented dismissively on Mychah's death. They did not deserve anything like these punishments; no one could "deserve" such, which is the entire point.

This can apply to almost every commonly anticipated (in-universe and in real life) sanction in the series and histories. For example, Joffrey Baratheon did not deserve to die horribly in his helpless mother's arms as a young teenager, Cersei Lannister did not deserve to undergo such an utterly misogynistic and gendered punishment due to crimes for which a clear double standard was mostly present, Vargo Hoat did not deserve to forcibly be fed to himself in pieces, Serala of Myr did not deserve to be mutilated and burned alive, etc. No one can "deserve" such gruesome fates, especially in context.

 

The conclusion that we are meant to draw might fit in our world much more than that of Ice and Fire due to values dissonance, but we are readers are meant to acknowledge and understand that we should pursue justice to the best of our ability (collectively as a society and individually as people), and that it is worth considering if we ever have the right to pass a judgment of death -- or, at least, whether we should ever wish significant harm or death upon others.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, James Steller said:

Call it sadism, call it schadenfreude, but which character’s demise did you actually enjoy reading?

For me, it was Tywin Lannister. The man who did so much cruelty over the course of his life, who hypocritically talked about the importance of family while outright abusing his own son, is killed on the toilet by Tyrion, mocked as he has a deeply undignified death. Not to mention his farce of a funeral. I’d almost say it was the justice of the gods if I was so inclined.

 

I think Joffrey was mine he died as he lived in an unsightly fashion. 

Edited by Darksnider05

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

A very major theme in A Song of Ice and Fire is that death should never be "satisfying." Most if not all instances of purportedly righteous deaths and other forms of comeuppance are carefully constructed and implemented for two primary reasons: firstly, to pervert wish fulfillment and thereby illustrate that vindictiveness is never warranted; and secondly, to demonstrate that vengeance is shortsighted and universally detrimental, and that justice should be pursued.

 

There are countless examples to this end, but two major ones are commonly cited for this phenomenon. No doubt most readers hoped that Theon Greyjoy would be taught a lesson after his chapters in A Clash of Kings... and Ramsay Snow gave him one, in the most horrifying way. The even more abhorrent and significantly more disproportionate fate is that of Jeyne Poole, who suffered unimaginable abuse at Ramsay's hands; she had at one point in A Game of Thrones commented dismissively on Mychah's death. They did not deserve anything like these punishments; no one could "deserve" such, which is the entire point.

This can apply to almost every commonly anticipated (in-universe and in real life) sanction in the series and histories. For example, Joffrey Baratheon did not deserve to die horribly in his helpless mother's arms as a young teenager, Cersei Lannister did not deserve to undergo such an utterly misogynistic and gendered punishment due to crimes for which a clear double standard was mostly present, Vargo Hoat did not deserve to forcibly be fed to himself in pieces, Serala of Myr did not deserve to be mutilated and burned alive, etc. No one can "deserve" such gruesome fates, especially in context.

 

The conclusion that we are meant to draw might fit in our world much more than that of Ice and Fire due to values dissonance, but we are readers are meant to acknowledge and understand that we should pursue justice to the best of our ability (collectively as a society and individually as people), and that it is worth considering if we ever have the right to pass a judgment of death -- or, at least, whether we should ever wish significant harm or death upon others.

Well I absolutely loved the Tickler’s death. It was perfect, and deeply satisfying. Haven’t read that passage in years, but just thinking about it  makes me want to start reciting “Is there gold in the village...”

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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Tywin, Slynt, the slaver who tried to get Drogon from Dany. Looking forward to Ramsay’s now. :D

 

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8 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

A very major theme in A Song of Ice and Fire is that death should never be "satisfying." Most if not all instances of purportedly righteous deaths and other forms of comeuppance are carefully constructed and implemented for two primary reasons: firstly, to pervert wish fulfillment and thereby illustrate that vindictiveness is never warranted; and secondly, to demonstrate that vengeance is shortsighted and universally detrimental, and that justice should be pursued.

 

There are countless examples to this end, but two major ones are commonly cited for this phenomenon. No doubt most readers hoped that Theon Greyjoy would be taught a lesson after his chapters in A Clash of Kings... and Ramsay Snow gave him one, in the most horrifying way. The even more abhorrent and significantly more disproportionate fate is that of Jeyne Poole, who suffered unimaginable abuse at Ramsay's hands; she had at one point in A Game of Thrones commented dismissively on Mychah's death. They did not deserve anything like these punishments; no one could "deserve" such, which is the entire point.

This can apply to almost every commonly anticipated (in-universe and in real life) sanction in the series and histories. For example, Joffrey Baratheon did not deserve to die horribly in his helpless mother's arms as a young teenager, Cersei Lannister did not deserve to undergo such an utterly misogynistic and gendered punishment due to crimes for which a clear double standard was mostly present, Vargo Hoat did not deserve to forcibly be fed to himself in pieces, Serala of Myr did not deserve to be mutilated and burned alive, etc. No one can "deserve" such gruesome fates, especially in context.

 

The conclusion that we are meant to draw might fit in our world much more than that of Ice and Fire due to values dissonance, but we are readers are meant to acknowledge and understand that we should pursue justice to the best of our ability (collectively as a society and individually as people), and that it is worth considering if we ever have the right to pass a judgment of death -- or, at least, whether we should ever wish significant harm or death upon others.

I think this is a good point and I agree with it.

Revenge and vindictiveness is not meant to be a good motive in ASOIAF. Robb’s war was at least partly fought out of revenge, and it didn’t end well for him. The Freys are almost universally hated due to their petty actions of revenge against Robb. I think we are meant to pity characters like Janos Slynt and Joffrey. Regardless of if you think they deserved it or brought it on themselves, as spectators IMO we are meant to pity them.

I think GRRM writes these characters deaths as so horrific because he prefers characters to seek redemption rather than being punished or seem irredeemable. Think of characters like Theon and Jaime, they have done terrible things but are trying to atone for them.

I think Septon Meribald’s broken men speech complements this idea well, humanising even those you are fighting against. The important thing about his speech is that it could broadly be applied to any soldier on any battlefield, regardless of if they are Stark, Lannister, Bolton, or Frey.

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Tywin. 

Quote

Do me a kindness now, and die quickly. I have a ship to catch."

I love that line.

Joffs death was too expected. 2 out of 3 leeches did their "job" already and I was too worried about the Imp, knowing the situation will blow up in his face.

 

I love Ser Cleos' death. So graphic. A pitiful guy with a pitiful death, but it stands out to me

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Tywin ranks #1. It was a very shocking death. I genuinely thought he'd be eaten by a dragon at some point or be given to the barracks and be gang raped (well not really). But this was satisfying too. That was a very humiliating death for the great Lord Tywin.

Amory Lorch comes second. Little Rhaenys had more courage in her tiny little body, compared to that murdering sociopath, who cried, crawled on his knees and snotted all over the place when his time to die came. Such a brave man, that Amory Lorch.

Vargo Hoat and every Brave Companion Brienne got rid of. 

I'd add Gregor Clegane to the list, but he's undead now, thanks to Qyburn. So I'm very much looking forward to Qyburn getting his for the maiming, the torture and so on . . .

Janos Slynt. 

Looking forward to Littlefinger and Ramsay getting theirs.

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Wow, not much love for Waymar Royce on this list. Sure, he was an arrogant youth, but so was Jon Snow when he started out with the Nights Watch. And say what you will about Waymar, but he stood face to face with several Others - actual frigging Others - and his only response was drawing his sword and saying "Dance with me." I hated him at first, but seeing him stand his ground against the most infamous and legendary enemies of mankind in the series was incredibly brave. Or incredibly stupid, I guess, but I'm a fan of House Royce so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. 

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9 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Wow, not much love for Waymar Royce on this list. Sure, he was an arrogant youth, but so was Jon Snow when he started out with the Nights Watch. And say what you will about Waymar, but he stood face to face with several Others - actual frigging Others - and his only response was drawing his sword and saying "Dance with me." I hated him at first, but seeing him stand his ground against the most infamous and legendary enemies of mankind in the series was incredibly brave. Or incredibly stupid, I guess, but I'm a fan of House Royce so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. 

Waymar Royce may have been arrogant and a jerk for the way he treated his fellow rangers, but he was smart and was 100% correct with every observation. When you take away the arrogance, he displayed qualities that would be important to the NW in a ranger.

And he wasn't a coward like some other characters who were jerks, bullies and arrogant, but went to their deaths crying because they were a bunch of cravens.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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14 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

I can give you a few.  Mirri Maaz Duur, Joffrey, Weymar, and Harma Dog's Head.

Something about Weymar turned me off.  He's an arrogant punk. He should have listened to the veteran.  Dumb kid. 

Mirri Maaz Duur? I actually felt sorry that she died. Agreed about Joff and Harma and I can understand Weyma, but MMD was not meant to be satisfying.

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14 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

A very major theme in A Song of Ice and Fire is that death should never be "satisfying." Most if not all instances of purportedly righteous deaths and other forms of comeuppance are carefully constructed and implemented for two primary reasons: firstly, to pervert wish fulfillment and thereby illustrate that vindictiveness is never warranted; and secondly, to demonstrate that vengeance is shortsighted and universally detrimental, and that justice should be pursued.

There are countless examples to this end, but two major ones are commonly cited for this phenomenon. No doubt most readers hoped that Theon Greyjoy would be taught a lesson after his chapters in A Clash of Kings... and Ramsay Snow gave him one, in the most horrifying way. The even more abhorrent and significantly more disproportionate fate is that of Jeyne Poole, who suffered unimaginable abuse at Ramsay's hands; she had at one point in A Game of Thrones commented dismissively on Mychah's death. They did not deserve anything like these punishments; no one could "deserve" such, which is the entire point.

This can apply to almost every commonly anticipated (in-universe and in real life) sanction in the series and histories. For example, Joffrey Baratheon did not deserve to die horribly in his helpless mother's arms as a young teenager, Cersei Lannister did not deserve to undergo such an utterly misogynistic and gendered punishment due to crimes for which a clear double standard was mostly present, Vargo Hoat did not deserve to forcibly be fed to himself in pieces, Serala of Myr did not deserve to be mutilated and burned alive, etc. No one can "deserve" such gruesome fates, especially in context.

The conclusion that we are meant to draw might fit in our world much more than that of Ice and Fire due to values dissonance, but we are readers are meant to acknowledge and understand that we should pursue justice to the best of our ability (collectively as a society and individually as people), and that it is worth considering if we ever have the right to pass a judgment of death -- or, at least, whether we should ever wish significant harm or death upon others.

Definitely. Seeing Joffrey's death through Sansa's eyes is very much necessary to understand that in the end, he is a thirteen year old being poisoned.

Even deaths of known awful people are never completely satisfying. Gregor Clegane, for example (well, his first "death") manages to kill Oberyn. Tywin is probably up there, but it is at the start of Tyrion's dark turn, and the murder of Shae occurs around the same time.

1 hour ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

Mirri Maaz Duur? I actually felt sorry that she died. Agreed about Joff and Harma and I can understand Weyma, but MMD was not meant to be satisfying.

I agree. I fully understand why Dany killed her, but likewise, I understand why Mirri did what she did when she was a victim of rape and was supposed to attend to the birth of a child prophesized to conquer the whole world.

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Off, hard to say. I'm going to give several examples:

- Tywin. As ASOS progresses you hate this POS becomes more and more culminating with the Tysha reveal leading to one of the most cathartic deaths ever. His funeral is just the icing on the cake.

- Janos. This was really nice as he couldn't see what we the audience were seeing coming all along, and it felt so good as he moved closer and closer to his comeuppance.

- Joffrey. My did it fell good. The sheer powerlessness felt so good for someone how had so abused his power in order to harm others.

- Gregor Clegane. Seeing him suffering probably the worst death in the series so far felt so good for this piece of shit. Seeing him becoming a dummy with no will power just Qyburn's minion felt great. The POS isn't getting rest even in death.

- Lorche. The begging did it for me.

- Tickler. Probably the one with the most dark humor, or so it seemed to me.

- Renly. I can't wait for the hate to flow for this. But when I read AGOT I saw him as an obnoxious pretty boy who is Littlefinger only devoid of actual intelligence and mischief. After I saw him crowning himself I hated him more, so seeing him die was the first death I felt was earned and justified.

- Rattleshirt. I'm going to be honest I was happy thinking he was Mance. Mance was the most entitled person in ASOS, and that's saying a lot, and the speech he gives Jon is so pompous and self righteous that I was so happy to see him get smashed by Stannis. Was genuinely elated when I found out we has getting killed. With the reveal of him being actually Rattleshirt, I guess it's still a good death.

- Balon. Head of house ,,we do not think, we do not plan". At least Euron is a good a terrifying character. Balon was just annoying.

- The masters of Astapor. Again figuring it out before them really helped.

Deaths I'm really looking forward to:

- Cersei

- Ramsay and Roose, preferably a slow and painful death. But above all else slow. Flaying would be good, Oberyn manticore venom the best.

- Euron. Can't wait for when his magic backfires and kills him.

- Mance for real this time

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We are definitely meant to stop and think at Joffrey's death, GRRM mentioned that he intentionally wrote the scene in a way that highlighted that he, the little shite he was, was still a child who died before his mother's eyes. However, I do believe that the comeuppances for Vargo Hoat or Amory Lorch or Janos Slynt are meant to be satisfying, and so will be Ramsay's. There may be a tinge of tragedy in LF's demise but Ramsay is simply a monster all and through. A bit of chasing through the woods and his girls eating him from the crotch would be just about fine, IMHO. 

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Viserys' was a good one, definitely cheer inducing.  I loved Cat's though and reread it from time to time. No malice toward the character, it's just that there appears to be a lot going on there.

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4 minutes ago, Jay21 said:

Viserys' was a good one, definitely cheer inducing.

I dunno I always found Viserys in general and that scene in particular very tragic. It's a desperate climax of a slow fall that started when he left Dragonstone.

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