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How could Tywin and Jaime conquer riverlands so fast


Mrstrategy

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How could Tywin and Jaime manage yo conquer riverlands so fast considering they had to siege castles as well as defeat riverlands lord.the riverlands lords are a bit easier to defeat since they are not united and split all over the riverlands but the castles should had delayed tywin or force him to leave troops behind  besieging castles while he focus on defeating tully and it's vassal forces that are out in the field

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Castles fall easily in this series, way easier than normal. But the Riverlands definitely should have put up more of a fight. They lose thousands against Tywin and Jaime until they have just 11,000 or so left by the time of ASOS. George needed Robb to change the tide in the first book by being a military genius, so he made Jaime and Tywin legendary commanders even though Jaime's never led an army before in his life. And while I love Robb's storyline, I can admit that the Riverlords were done very dirty in the first book. 

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What makes you think the Lannisters were not able to leave detachments behind them to keep garnisons locked up while the two field armies manouvered into position? Jamie didn't have to travel far to Riverrun and Tywin would seem to have made moved so fast that little preparations could be made in advance of his arrival, ehcne the quick fall of for example Stoney Sept.

But most importantly its a book series, and even in real history books the author does not always go into detail on every little manouver or detachment sent off, even if they know about it. So probably to keep the action going and not bog down the reader in details that won't be very important anyway.

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8 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

George needed Robb to change the tide in the first book by being a military genius, so he made Jaime and Tywin legendary commanders even though Jaime's never led an army before in his life.

To be fair, Edmure hadn't led an army before either, and he was too concerned about protecting the entire countryside. He spread his forces far apart to guard every bit of the land, so Tywin and Jaime won because they kept their armies united while sending Ser Gregor out to make distracting raids. And who said that the Tully forces were down to just 11000? That's just the number of men that Edmure had for the Fords battle, it doesn't mean that's all he had left.

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I don't recall if the books explicitly talk about this in detail, but I kinda got the impression that Tywin and Jaime "getting the jump" on the Riverlands prevented them from mobilizing to their theoretical full strength and that this was a big reason why the Lannisters were able to take over much of the Riverlands before Robb arrived.

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Because they never had to face a united Riverlord army. Jaime smashed a Piper-Vance force at the Golden Tooth and then a Tully-Blackwood (and possibly Mallister) force at Riverun and then sieged Riverrun itself. Tywin meanwhile only had to destroy small forces individually since Edmure split his force into dozens of smaller armies in attempt to defend every inch of ground. With their armies swept away in the field, Tywin just set Clegane to burning and sacking the weakly defended and caught off-guard castles until they surrendered. IIRC the only Riverlands settlement we know is taken by force in the initial invasion (besides Stoney Sept, which is basically just a village) was Stone Hedge.

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Castles fall easily in this series, way easier than normal. But the Riverlands definitely should have put up more of a fight. They lose thousands against Tywin and Jaime until they have just 11,000 or so left by the time of ASOS.

The Riverlands don't only have 11k left by ASOS. That's just the amount Edmure has at the fords at doesn't count the 4k Frey's or any men that could have been raised by Lord's not able to send men to that battle (Harrenhal was under occupation and Maidenpool, Darry and Saltpans are on the wrong side of Tywin's army to take part in that fight)

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

George needed Robb to change the tide in the first book by being a military genius, so he made Jaime and Tywin legendary commanders even though Jaime's never led an army before in his life. And while I love Robb's storyline, I can admit that the Riverlords were done very dirty in the first book. 

Jaime is in no way depicted to be a legendary commander. He wins two victory's against much smaller forces and then is spectacularly defeated another army nearly a third the size of his own. He's competent at best. It was Tywin who did the bulk of the castle-taking and it would be reasonable to assume most were forced into surrender rather than taken outright.

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Edmure made one blunder after the other, he spread his forces and allow Tywin to pick them apart, he send Vance and Piper to fight Jaime on their own and later offers battle to Jaime at Riverrun when he is outnumbered, even though he would be safe on the castle for a while.

If the Riverlords had a competent commander like Blackfish, it's possible that they wouldn't need Robb.

One think that I do not understand is why Tywin and Jaime kept sieging Riverrun. They already had Edmure as hostage to trade for Tyrion and beat two armies to show the "might of the Lannisters", but them decide to keep the conflit going when the initial goals were completed.

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54 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

e only Riverlands settlement we know is taken by force in the initial invasion (besides Stoney Sept, which is basically just a village) was Stone Hedge.

Raventree Hall, Harenhall and Darry also fell to the Lannisters before Robb arrived.

Ser Kevan said. “With Lord Blackwood gone, Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it.

Darry men recaptured their lord’s keep but held it less than a fortnight before Gregor Clegane descended on them and put the whole garrison to the sword, even their lord.”

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40 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Raventree Hall, Harenhall and Darry also fell to the Lannisters before Robb arrived.

Ser Kevan said. “With Lord Blackwood gone, Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it.

Darry men recaptured their lord’s keep but held it less than a fortnight before Gregor Clegane descended on them and put the whole garrison to the sword, even their lord.”

Hence why I said 'taken by force'. We know there was a fight at Stone Hedge because I think Lord Jonos' bastard dies fighting them there. But while Darry, Raventree, Pinkmaiden and Harrenhal (and I think one of the Vance castle's too?) are all taken, we know at least one of them yielded the castle. Given how quickly Tywin moves through the Riverlands, it seems logical to me that more castles were forced to yield than were assaulted.

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They defeated the Riverlords in detail. The early raids by Clegane forced the hand of Edmure to spread his forces to protect them from raiding and pillaging. The sudden shift of the conflict into open warfare with prepared Lannister armies caught these anti-raider forces unaware and crushed them before real resistance could be mounted. Escalation of raiding by mountain and free-riders following said defeats combined with siege of Riverrun forced the Riverlords to hole up in their holds or lose their lands to fire and sword while campaigning. 

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6 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

To be fair, Edmure hadn't led an army before either, and he was too concerned about protecting the entire countryside. He spread his forces far apart to guard every bit of the land, so Tywin and Jaime won because they kept their armies united while sending Ser Gregor out to make distracting raids. And who said that the Tully forces were down to just 11000? That's just the number of men that Edmure had for the Fords battle, it doesn't mean that's all he had left.

Edmure was old enough to fight in Roberts Rebellion, which makes him much more capable than most of the people he was fighting. 

There also wasnt a real reason for him to spread his army as thin as we are talk since there are really only 3 places a Westerman army can pass through. Even so, Edmure should have been able to rally to the losing army with his others if overrun. 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Edmure was old enough to fight in Roberts Rebellion, which makes him much more capable than most of the people he was fighting. 

There also wasnt a real reason for him to spread his army as thin as we are talk since there are really only 3 places a Westerman army can pass through. Even so, Edmure should have been able to rally to the losing army with his others if overrun. 

 

 

It's never been established that Edmure fought during Robert's Rebellion. If he had, he would have brought it up in one of his exchanges with someone. That's not something Edmure would keep quiet about.

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19 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

It's never been established that Edmure fought during Robert's Rebellion. If he had, he would have brought it up in one of his exchanges with someone. That's not something Edmure would keep quiet about.

 

7 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

To be fair, Edmure hadn't led an army before either, and he was too concerned about protecting the entire countryside. He spread his forces far apart to guard every bit of the land, so Tywin and Jaime won because they kept their armies united while sending Ser Gregor out to make distracting raids.

Too concerned about the smallfolk? You make that sound like a flaw when I think that’s Edmure’s most positive character trait. He’s the only head of a noble house thus far who has actively looked after the smallfolk in time of war, even when doing so can be taken advantage of by his enemies. If Stannis is the king who cared, Edmure is the lord paramount who cares.

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1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Too concerned about the smallfolk? You make that sound like a flaw when I think that’s Edmure’s most positive character trait. He’s the only head of a noble house thus far who has actively looked after the smallfolk in time of war, even when doing so can be taken advantage of by his enemies. If Stannis is the king who cared, Edmure is the lord paramount who cares.

Not really. Doran is show to be very concern for the well being of his people and Tytos Blackwood is show to be very angry about the Lannisters putting his smallfolk to the sword, the problem of Edmure is not for caring too much about the smallfolk, is that he cannot see the big picture and realize that he cannot protect everything. 

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6 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Hence why I said 'taken by force'. We know there was a fight at Stone Hedge because I think Lord Jonos' bastard dies fighting them there. But while Darry, Raventree, Pinkmaiden and Harrenhal (and I think one of the Vance castle's too?) are all taken, we know at least one of them yielded the castle. Given how quickly Tywin moves through the Riverlands, it seems logical to me that more castles were forced to yield than were assaulted.

I see. You're probably right, we know that at the very least Harenhall fell without a fight.

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11 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

It's never been established that Edmure fought during Robert's Rebellion. If he had, he would have brought it up in one of his exchanges with someone. That's not something Edmure would keep quiet about.

We only have confirmation of about 40 characters fighting in Rebellion, Its more likely than not that he fought in the rebellion, Probably Greyjoy's Rebellion as well. 

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1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

We only have confirmation of about 40 characters fighting in Rebellion, Its more likely than not that he fought in the rebellion, Probably Greyjoy's Rebellion as well. 

I don't think he fought in Robert's Rebellion. Everyone who participated in that rebellion is venerated by the other characters. There's an aura around them, and Edmure doesn't have it. Catelyn and the Blackfish constantly talk down to Edmure, as does Robb, even though Edmure would have already earned his spurs long before Robb if he'd been part of Robert's Rebellion. Hoster clearly fought in the war, and he's regarded with admiration as a fierce leader, while Edmure is viewed by the other characters as being inexperienced. Ned Stark never mentions Edmure's military experience, only his blunders. GRRM has had ample opportunity to bring up Edmure's military experience in either Robert's Rebellion or the Greyjoy Rebellion, but there's not been any mention of it. It makes me think Edmure was the heir who stayed at home in case his father and uncle died.

Also, we have no idea how old Edmure is. We know he was a squire to Brandon Stark for a bit, but that doesn't mean anything. Based on the wiki of ice and fire, he was between 8-15 when Robert's Rebellion started, so I find it highly unlikely that he ever took part.

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57 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I don't think he fought in Robert's Rebellion. Everyone who participated in that rebellion is venerated by the other characters. There's an aura around them, and Edmure doesn't have it. Catelyn and the Blackfish constantly talk down to Edmure, as does Robb, even though Edmure would have already earned his spurs long before Robb if he'd been part of Robert's Rebellion. Hoster clearly fought in the war, and he's regarded with admiration as a fierce leader, while Edmure is viewed by the other characters as being inexperienced. Ned Stark never mentions Edmure's military experience, only his blunders. GRRM has had ample opportunity to bring up Edmure's military experience in either Robert's Rebellion or the Greyjoy Rebellion, but there's not been any mention of it. It makes me think Edmure was the heir who stayed at home in case his father and uncle died.

Also, we have no idea how old Edmure is. We know he was a squire to Brandon Stark for a bit, but that doesn't mean anything. Based on the wiki of ice and fire, he was between 8-15 when Robert's Rebellion started, so I find it highly unlikely that he ever took part.

Pretty much this, in a world where you only need one victory to be called experienced/genius commander, yes I'm looking at you Stannis and Randyll Tarly, Edmure having fought in the war would've been treated much differently.

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George decided to implement Blitzkrieg. It was so efficient that castles were the equivalent of a french battalion. 

In honesty George isnt the best Warfare writer. When plot convenience is involved, he will sacrifice all the realism of war by having Tywin overrun the riverlands like its ww2. 

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