How could Tywin and Jaime conquer riverlands so fast

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Pretty much this, in a world where you only need one victory to be called experienced/genius commander, yes I'm looking at you Stannis and Randyll Tarly, Edmure having fought in the war would've been treated much differently.

Woah! Stannis has had several victories over the course of his life. The fact that he held Storm’s End for so long without breaking (as a teenager no less), his successful conquering of Dragonstone (his only setback was that one ship got away, everything else worked out), his naval victory against the Iron Fleet of all things, plus who knows how many skirmishes he engaged in during that rebellion. Then we also have his victories at the Wall, Deepwood Motte, and hopefully Winterfell. Randyll Tarly is one thing, but Stannis earned his reputation fair and square.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Woah! Stannis has had several victories over the course of his life. The fact that he held Storm’s End for so long without breaking (as a teenager no less), his successful conquering of Dragonstone (his only setback was that one ship got away, everything else worked out), his naval victory against the Iron Fleet of all things, plus who knows how many skirmishes he engaged in during that rebellion. Then we also have his victories at the Wall, Deepwood Motte, and hopefully Winterfell. Randyll Tarly is one thing, but Stannis earned his reputation fair and square.

When people talk about Stannis they only talk about Storm's End and Fair Island. Tarly also fought in Duskendale that doesn't mean that his rep only comes from Ashford and beating Robert.

[Dreadscythe95]

The Lannisters didn't crush them though, they just used Blitzkrieg to catch them out of guard. The RIverlords gather most of their forces at Riverrun, they just lose the inital assult by the Lannisters because honestly who thought that under King Robert The Lannisters would attack the Riverlands like that.

[The Merling King]

Could someone explain how the Westerlands singlehandedly crushed the Riverlords at the start of WOT5k but the Riverlords were able to defeat the larger Hightower, Lannister and Baratheon hosts during the DOTD?

[frenin]

37 minutes ago, The Merling King said:

Could someone explain how the Westerlands singlehandedly crushed the Riverlords at the start of WOT5k but the Riverlords were able to defeat the larger Hightower, Lannister and Baratheon hosts during the DOTD?

The Lannisters were tired and already beaten, there was a dragon and the Hightowers were caught by surprise but overall It all comes down to leadership, if the leader is good you will prevail if not well you die. Having bersekers like the Winter wolves in your side, doesn't hurt either.

The Riverlords had very good leaders during the Dance, Sabitha Frey,  Longleaf, Garibald the Grey, Black Aly, the Lads, Robb Rivers... The Riverlands had arguably the best leadership in the entire war, besides being resilient af.

The current Riverlords only had naive Edmure as leader...  One should think that veterans like Jason Mallister would help... But nope. Had Hoster being healthy a different tune would've been played.

 

[dsjj251]

On 5/14/2020 at 11:28 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I don't think he fought in Robert's Rebellion. Everyone who participated in that rebellion is venerated by the other characters. There's an aura around them, and Edmure doesn't have it. Catelyn and the Blackfish constantly talk down to Edmure, as does Robb, even though Edmure would have already earned his spurs long before Robb if he'd been part of Robert's Rebellion. Hoster clearly fought in the war, and he's regarded with admiration as a fierce leader, while Edmure is viewed by the other characters as being inexperienced. Ned Stark never mentions Edmure's military experience, only his blunders. GRRM has had ample opportunity to bring up Edmure's military experience in either Robert's Rebellion or the Greyjoy Rebellion, but there's not been any mention of it. It makes me think Edmure was the heir who stayed at home in case his father and uncle died.

Also, we have no idea how old Edmure is. We know he was a squire to Brandon Stark for a bit, but that doesn't mean anything. Based on the wiki of ice and fire, he was between 8-15 when Robert's Rebellion started, so I find it highly unlikely that he ever took part.

GRRM has had plenty of time to bring up a lot of people's military experience and never once does.  Again, we have hundreds of Northmen and Riverlords who would have fought in major battles of Robert's Rebellion and Greyjoy's Rebellion and yet we are only specifically told of about 40 characters who fought in either. 

Its not logical to believe all those people escaped fighting in both

[BlackLightning]

Why do people think that Edmure was old enough to fight in Robert's Rebellion? He literally wasn't.

Catelyn Tully was 10 when Edmure was born and Catelyn was married to Ned Stark in her late teens. Edmure is in his mid-20s during the War of the Five Kings. Renly, Edmure, Willas and Arianne are all the same age.

[dsjj251]

On 6/2/2020 at 3:24 PM, BlackLightning said:

Why do people think that Edmure was old enough to fight in Robert's Rebellion? He literally wasn't.

Catelyn Tully was 10 when Edmure was born and Catelyn was married to Ned Stark in her late teens. Edmure is in his mid-20s during the War of the Five Kings. Renly, Edmure, Willas and Arianne are all the same age.

There is a WIki attached to this forum that has age calculation pages. 

Catelyn could have been 10 when Edmure was born, but she could have been as young as 2.(about to turn 3)

They have his birth as being between 267-274, so he could have been as old as 15, as young as 8

[BlackLightning]

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

There is a WIki attached to this forum that has age calculation pages. 

Catelyn could have been 10 when Edmure was born, but she could have been as young as 2.(about to turn 3)

They have his birth as being between 267-274, so he could have been as old as 15, as young as 8

Yeah I love the wiki!!!

The reason why I believe Catelyn was 10 or close to it is because she specifically mentions (more than once) that she was educated, treated and acknowledged as her father's heir before Edmure was born. For her to feel so strongly about it and remember it so clearly on top of how people in the Riverlands respect her as much as they did/do, I think that it's safe to say that Catelyn was educated as the future Lady of Riverrun for years. That education came to an end when it was clear that Edmure would survive infancy.

That said, I think that there is only a 1-3 year difference between her and Lysa. Poor Lysa.

[Bernie Mac]

On 5/14/2020 at 3:28 PM, dsjj251 said:

We only have confirmation of about 40 characters fighting in Rebellion, Its more likely than not that he fought in the rebellion, Probably Greyjoy's Rebellion as well. 

Its really not. The estimates for his age are between 9 and 15. Cat was 17 or 18 when she married Ned, Lysa a little over 2 years younger and Edmure younger still. Though not conclusive, his age would mean that it was less likely rather than more.

Also Edmure has never been knighted, which seems to be a common occurrence for young nobles to have survived and experienced battle, such as Jaime against the Brotherhood or even Aerys in the Nine Penny Wars. Edmure's lack of a Knighthood kind of suggests that he has not seen military service other than in a command (acting Lord position).

Finally given Hoster's desperation to have his brother wed and create more Tully's, it seems likely that even if Edmure was old enough, Hoster may not have allowed his only son (after the death of his brothers) to go to war at the same time as he did. Edmure would have been safe at home during Robert's Rebellion.

The Greyjoy Rebellion is another matter, but I'm pretty sure he took no part in Robert's Rebellion.

[dsjj251]

18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Its really not. The estimates for his age are between 9 and 15. Cat was 17 or 18 when she married Ned, Lysa a little over 2 years younger and Edmure younger still. Though not conclusive, his age would mean that it was less likely rather than more.

Also Edmure has never been knighted, which seems to be a common occurrence for young nobles to have survived and experienced battle, such as Jaime against the Brotherhood or even Aerys in the Nine Penny Wars. Edmure's lack of a Knighthood kind of suggests that he has not seen military service other than in a command (acting Lord position).

Finally given Hoster's desperation to have his brother wed and create more Tully's, it seems likely that even if Edmure was old enough, Hoster may not have allowed his only son (after the death of his brothers) to go to war at the same time as he did. Edmure would have been safe at home during Robert's Rebellion.

The Greyjoy Rebellion is another matter, but I'm pretty sure he took no part in Robert's Rebellion.

Edmure is a knight. He is listed as such in the Appendix of AGOT. This furthers my argument of we dont get much back story on everyone outside the POV characters or people who died but are key to the story. 

 

Quote

HOSTER TULLY, Lord of Riverrun,

• his wife, {LADY MINISA, of House Whent}, died in childbed,
• their children:
  • CATELYN, the eldest daughter, wed to Lord Eddard Stark,
  • LYSA, the younger daughter, wed to Lord Jon Arryn,
  • SER EDMURE, heir to Riverrun,

 

Blackfish became estranged in the early 260s,  before any of the Tully kids were born, likely after the 2 miscarriages of Minisa Whent/Tully 

 

Edmure was close enough in age to Cat , Littlefinger and Lysa to be hanging out with them on a regular basis and for Peytr to see him as a friend.