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Why did Blackfish or edmure tully never married before war of five kings


Mrstrategy

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Why did edmure tully never married still the red wedding considering he was the only male heir with tully name to the tully lands and tittle if you don't consider the blackfish someone who never seem to want to get married.if I understand correctly noble families in westeros prefer if the lands and tittle stay in main branch and edmure and the blackfish are the last male tully both. but  edmure specially should have been married as soon as he became of age to continue the tully line because if edmure dies the tittle and lands goes to blackfish and if he does not have any kids the tittle goes to stark family or the arryn family since they are the nearest claimants from female line

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6 hours ago, Mrstrategy said:

Why did edmure tully never married still the red wedding considering he was the only male heir with tully name to the tully lands and tittle if you don't consider the blackfish someone who never seem to want to get married.if I understand correctly noble families in westeros prefer if the lands and tittle stay in main branch and edmure and the blackfish are the last male tully both. but  edmure specially should have been married as soon as he became of age to continue the tully line because if edmure dies the tittle and lands goes to blackfish and if he does not have any kids the tittle goes to stark family or the arryn family since they are the nearest claimants from female line

The Blackfish has been speculated on for quite a while. I don't want to say anything too definitively, fan speculation is that it is down to sexuality, or perhaps personal preference. 

Edmure is in his mid-20s, and it would not be terribly unusual for him to remain married. It seems like there was no ideal candidate for him: Margaery was only just of marriageable age and had other attentions, Doran had his own plans for Arianne and wouldn't let a marriage happen, Asha is... Asha, and we don't know of too many important women in their mid-20s, others being too old for Edmure, fairly young, or having unusual circumstances. 

Men do not need to be married as soon as they are able to, and it seems natural that they could perhaps wait for a while to allow Edmure to find some ideal spouse. A good number of rulers in the real world did not marry before either inheriting or proving themselves with some military career.

If Edmure unexpectedly died just before the beginning of the novel, then perhaps some cadet branch would be found and named as heirs, or Bran would have to relinquish rights to Winterfell and become a Tully to be a potential heir to Riverrun.

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1 hour ago, Vaith said:

The Blackfish has been speculated on for quite a while. I don't want to say anything too definitively, fan speculation is that it is down to sexuality, or perhaps personal preference. 

Edmure is in his mid-20s, and it would not be terribly unusual for him to remain married. It seems like there was no ideal candidate for him: Margaery was only just of marriageable age and had other attentions, Doran had his own plans for Arianne and wouldn't let a marriage happen, Asha is... Asha, and we don't know of too many important women in their mid-20s, others being too old for Edmure, fairly young, or having unusual circumstances. 

Men do not need to be married as soon as they are able to, and it seems natural that they could perhaps wait for a while to allow Edmure to find some ideal spouse. A good number of rulers in the real world did not marry before either inheriting or proving themselves with some military career.

If Edmure unexpectedly died just before the beginning of the novel, then perhaps some cadet branch would be found and named as heirs, or Bran would have to relinquish rights to Winterfell and become a Tully to be a potential heir to Riverrun.

I dunno about the lack of suitable women because it is actually quite common for Lord Paramounts to marry into the family of one of their vassals to strenghten ties. Lady Ollena was actually a redwyne before she married Lord Tyrell. There has to be some lady from one of the Riverland Houses. Now of course freys were banned but there are other powerful houses like Bracken, Mallister, Piper, Vance, Blackwood etc. So there was to be a young woman for him to marry.

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The Blackfish might be gay, though this is more of a reader insrtion, as we have no information in that regard by George, other than the fact that the Blackfish refused to be married and had a row over it with his brother Hoster Tully. But when we compare with other characters  (Rhaenys Targaryen, Laenor Velaryon, Jon Connington, Renly and Loras), at least with them we learn of "favourite companions" or people they admire with a certain undertone. We've never heard of the Blackfish having "a very good friend". It's possible he's actually asexual and as a man who isn't to inherit there is less need for it. His choice to go to the Vale and serve Lysa is not unlike Benjen's choice to join the NW.

While George could have conjured up a marriable daughter or sister to one of Hoster's bannermen, he also set up Hoster Tully as a man who set the bar very high to whom his children got married. He only ever negotiated marriage deals with Wardens or LP's. Before RR, he negotiated with Tywin to wed Lysa to Jaime, and eventually managed to get her to marry Jon Arryn. He negotiated a betrothal for Catelyn to Brandon Stark, son of Warden of the North, Rickard Stark. And after they died, made Ned Stark take his dead brother's place. And we know that at least he attempted to negotiate with Doran Martell over a potential match between Edmure and Arianne (which if she's to be Princess of Dorne would be unworkable, but Doran held hope she might become queen one day via Viserys).

With that information, I think it's safe to say that Hoster Tully refused to consider any bride for his heir other than a daughter of a Warden or Lord Paramount. And except for Arianne, none of those daughters were of a marriagable age yet before the story commences. Margaery was getting close to such an age, but the Tyrells hoped to make her queen from the start, either via Robert setting aside Cersei, via Renly, Joffrey and now Tommen. It's possible that Hoster Tuly tried to start up negotiations for Margaery, but if he did, then I'm certain the Tyrells held off any such talk. They wanted to catch a crowned stag, not a fish. Stannis has a daughter who's still a child and is afflicted with greyscale. Asha is Ironborn, and with the violent history between Ironborn and Riverlands (even quite recently), such a match would be undesirable for all parties involved: Balon, Hoster, Edmure and Asha. That pretty much only left princess Myrcella, and either Sansa or Arya. Sansa and Arya are too closely related to Edmure to Hoster's liking imo - they're Edmure's nieces. On top of that Hoster likely expected Robert to make the eldest daughter of his best friend wife to his heir Joffrey. So, we have Myrcella and Arya Stark left as potential match, with Myrcella the likeliest candidate in Hoster's mind: a granddaughter (Sansa) as future queen, and a son having a princess for wife. Such a match was not something Hoster could 'propose himself'. For that he'd have to wait until Robert got the bright idea himself. If Robert had continued to live, I'm sure that would have been the marriage he'd entertain for Myrcella over wedding her to a Martell let alone Sweetrobin who was but a sickly boy.

Conclusion: given the fact he did try to negotiate with Doran to wed Edmure to Princess Arianne, I think Hoster wanted Edmure to wed a princess specifically.

And Edmure was quite fine with that, as he wanted to enjoy the bachelor life for a long while still.

 

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The Blackfish was unmarried because he refused to marry. That is not a mystery. Why he refused to marry we don't know, but his sexuality doesn't necessarily have anything to do with that. Quite a few gay people in Westeros were betrothed or married and there is no indication that lordly or royal parents care about the sexual tastes of their children when they make matches for them.

Edmure is very odd in light of the fact that there wasn't even a betrothal. The best explanation I can think of is that Hoster actually changed his approach somewhat after the Littlefinger-Lysa debacle, deciding to allow his son to choose his future spouse himself. And it is not correct that there were no suitable women around. There are unwed Hightower daughters out there who are prestigious enough for a man who wants his son to marry high nobility. The same goes for Desmera Redwyne who had a Tyrell mother. If Hoster had aimed at a royal betrothal - with Myrcella or Shireen Baratheon, say - then we should have heard something about that. After all, such efforts on the side of Hoster should have had considerable effects on the war effort, meaning if Robert/Cersei or Stannis had been talking to Hoster/Edmure before it would have likely influenced the war in some fashion.

But the bottom line is that it is just not very convincing that the only son of House Tully is not even betrothed in his twenties. The man is Hoster's only proper heir, and it makes no sense for a single son to remain without the means to produce heirs of his own for this long. With Arianne Martell it is different, since Doran Martell has spare heirs in Quentyn and Trystane. But Hoster has effectively only Edmure. Catelyn and Lysa are not going to get Riverrun nor is the castle and lordship for their Stark and Arryn children. And Brynden is no suitable heir, either, being without legitimate children and no longer in good standing with his lordly brother.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Blackfish was unmarried because he refused to marry. That is not a mystery. Why he refused to marry we don't know, but his sexuality doesn't necessarily have anything to do with that. Quite a few gay people in Westeros were betrothed or married and there is no indication that lordly or royal parents care about the sexual tastes of their children when they make matches for them.

Pretty much. Nothing indicate that the Blackfish is gay.  His refusal to marry might just be a way to piss off his older brother.

In Edmure's case, we know he likes "wenching" so he is probably straight.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Edmure is very odd in light of the fact that there wasn't even a betrothal. The best explanation I can think of is that Hoster actually changed his approach somewhat after the Littlefinger-Lysa debacle, deciding to allow his son to choose his future spouse himself. And it is not correct that there were no suitable women around.

When did Edmure's mother die?  It might have something to do with Hoster's attitudes. I kind of feel that Hoster dropped the ball with Edmure. Spcially if you compare the formation he received with Catelyn's. Edmure doesn't look politically savvy, niether he is a competent fighter or strategist.  Did he ever squire for someone? Was he ever sent to KL to court Robert? or to Ned? It seems like he was left to hang around in Riverrun without much to do. Very unHoster-like.  Hell, it seems that Hoster played a very minor role in Robert's reign despite being fundamental for him winning the throne.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There are unwed Hightower daughters out there who are prestigious enough for a man who wants his son to marry high nobility. The same goes for Desmera Redwyne who had a Tyrell mother. If Hoster had aimed at a royal betrothal - with Myrcella or Shireen Baratheon, say - then we should have heard something about that. After all, such efforts on the side of Hoster should have had considerable effects on the war effort, meaning if Robert/Cersei or Stannis had been talking to Hoster/Edmure before it would have likely influenced the war in some fashion.

But the bottom line is that it is just not very convincing that the only son of House Tully is not even betrothed in his twenties. The man is Hoster's only proper heir, and it makes no sense for a single son to remain without the means to produce heirs of his own for this long. With Arianne Martell it is different, since Doran Martell has spare heirs in Quentyn and Trystane. But Hoster has effectively only Edmure. Catelyn and Lysa are not going to get Riverrun nor is the castle and lordship for their Stark and Arryn children. And Brynden is no suitable heir, either, being without legitimate children and no longer in good standing with his lordly brother.

Well, we only know that Hoster tried Ariane Martell, which is again a very odd match, because she is the heiress of Dorne. Where they were supposed to live?

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21 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well, we only know that Hoster tried Ariane Martell, which is again a very odd match, because she is the heiress of Dorne. Where they were supposed to live?

If Arianne married Edmure, she'd likely forfeit her right to Sunspear.

Mariah Martell was also the heiress to Sunspear but her brother Maron inheriteded.

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1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

When did Edmure's mother die?  It might have something to do with Hoster's attitudes. I kind of feel that Hoster dropped the ball with Edmure. Spcially if you compare the formation he received with Catelyn's. Edmure doesn't look politically savvy, niether he is a competent fighter or strategist.  Did he ever squire for someone? Was he ever sent to KL to court Robert? or to Ned? It seems like he was left to hang around in Riverrun without much to do. Very unHoster-like.  Hell, it seems that Hoster played a very minor role in Robert's reign despite being fundamental for him winning the throne.

Edmure is a knight, so he definitely squired for somebody. And considering he has a string of close friends among the young Riverlords or their heirs, it stands to reason that whoever he squired for was a Riverlord, too. Unlike Jaime I don't think Hoster sent him to another place - which seems to be unusual for a lordly heir, anyway - and instead took in the sons of other Riverlords or had Edmure tour the Riverlands later to get to know his lands ... which he seems to do.

I don't think Edmure is incompetent. He has a soft spot for his smallfolk, and isn't the smartest guy alive, but he isn't stupid and he is well-liked among his people, lords and commoners alike.

That Hoster didn't reap any rewards in offices or betrothals with the Baratheons after the Rebellion is odd, though. He clearly has no close to court in AGoT, but thanks to George completely failing to ever elaborate on or reference the Small Council or court politics in general throughout Robert's reign, it is impossible to say what happened there. Hoster could have sat on the Small Council as one of Littlefinger's or Renly's predecessors. Neither of them joined the Small Council during the first decade of Robert's reign.

If Hoster had retained his attitude and ambitions in the marriage game after the Rebellion it is also odd that he apparently never tried to make a royal match. Shireen and Myrcella are both much younger than Edmure, but a betrothal could have been made nonetheless.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well, we only know that Hoster tried Ariane Martell, which is again a very odd match, because she is the heiress of Dorne. Where they were supposed to live?

One imagines they would have moved back and forth. That Arianne had no intention of giving up Dorne is clear ... and yet she still tried to marry Willas Tyrell and seduce Renly Baratheon (indicating she may have wanted to marry him, too), meaning that we can be pretty sure that Arianne did not believe she had to give up her own inheritance if she married a lord or lordly heir.

In fact, I find the Daeron-Myriah thing confusing as it is right now. By the time the deal was made Myriah was the heir to Dorne, but Daeron Targaryen wasn't heir to anything ... and wouldn't be until Aegon IV rose to the throne. Why should Myriah give up her right to Dorne just because Prince Daeron might one day, perhaps, sit the Iron Throne? Even that wouldn't have been clear at that point since Baelor only annulled his marriage and eventually took a septon's vow after he returned from Dorne and nearly died in that viper's pit.

Also, both Viserys II and Aegon IV had their firstborn sons at a rather early age ... meaning even if the Iron Throne would pass from Baelor (who could live to old age) to Viserys' branch of the family there is no reason to believe that Daeron would outlive Baelor, Viserys, and Aegon. He could predecease some or even all of them, meaning he would never have the opportunity to sit the Iron Throne. If only his son or grandson succeeded, say, Baelor, Viserys II, or Aegon IV then Myriah would have given up Dorne for no good reason.

And I'm not sure why Myriah's father would agree to a Targaryen match that would effectively rob him of his oldest child and heiress. Baelor wanted peace with Dorne, not the other way around.

In that sense I hope that this story is going to be more complex, with George perhaps changing the birth order of Maron and Myriah again, and making the decision that Myriah would become Daeron's queen only when that was getting more and more likely, say, when Aegon IV took the throne. I'd find it very intriguing if Daeron spent his formative years in Dorne as a ward at Sunspear where Baelor could have sent him after the deal was made - like Myrcella went, Cregan expected things to go with Jacaerys' hypothetical daughter, or things went with Rhaelle Targaryen after Aegon V agreed to marry her to Lyonel's heir. The decision that Daeron and Myriah would return to court could have made only years later, possibly even only after Baelor's death. That could also help explain how Daeron became popular with his wife's family and the Dornishmen in general.

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8 hours ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

I dunno about the lack of suitable women because it is actually quite common for Lord Paramounts to marry into the family of one of their vassals to strenghten ties. Lady Ollena was actually a redwyne before she married Lord Tyrell. There has to be some lady from one of the Riverland Houses. Now of course freys were banned but there are other powerful houses like Bracken, Mallister, Piper, Vance, Blackwood etc. So there was to be a young woman for him to marry.

The Brackens seem to have some eligible daughters, but they and the Blackwoods feud rather famously. It might not be in the best interests of the Tullys to inflame the rivalry by picking one side.

We don't know of any living female Pipers, Mallisters or Darrys, and Karyl Vance's daughters may be rather young. So we can't really know who the most eligible women in the Riverlands would have been, given that only a few are mentioned in appendices or the story itself, and not many near Edmure in age.

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20 hours ago, Vaith said:

The Brackens seem to have some eligible daughters, but they and the Blackwoods feud rather famously. It might not be in the best interests of the Tullys to inflame the rivalry by picking one side.

We don't know of any living female Pipers, Mallisters or Darrys, and Karyl Vance's daughters may be rather young. So we can't really know who the most eligible women in the Riverlands would have been, given that only a few are mentioned in appendices or the story itself, and not many near Edmure in age.

But should the bride does not have to be near Edmure's  age as long as she is young and healthy.Heck she could even be a teenager. In those times it was quite common. It seems reasonable that at least a betrothal would be made.

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28 minutes ago, EccentricHorse11 said:

But should the bride does not have to be near Edmure's  age as long as she is young and healthy.Heck she could even be a teenager. In those times it was quite common. It seems reasonable that at least a betrothal would be made.

By "young" in this case I mean a child, which can be somewhat disadvantageous if the adult party has to wait a number of years. A betrothal might have been considered, but perhaps there was no strong candidate that Edmure was committed to before the beginning of the books. 

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Blackfish is not mentioned to have a paramour/fathered bastards but also not prefer male companion. Rumours spread for other people's sexual preferences (Lyn Corbray, Laenor Velaryon, Rhaena Targaryen, Loras Tyrell, Renly Baratheon, etc). So probably he is interested only in his military duties or just ins uninterested in marrying. Edmure seems odd to not be at least betrothed. His father seemed to try much to find husbands for his daughters but not for his heir. It would be easy for him to find a Lannister bride (Daven's sisters, Serenna and Myrielle for example). I guess Hoster's health and age made him focus on himself now. Edmure as a man can have children whenever he wants.

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