GRRM leaving after S4

[TargBastard0]

So the guy basically left the show after S4, however i cannot find any statement coming directly out of him or the show runners that tells me anything meaningful on the reasons. I see only speculative articles from media and so on. I know the main scenarios that are discussed but anyway wanted to ask on your opinion on the matter?

Is it possible that they really had a major disagreement and even a complete meltdown of their relationship, so major that the show had to deviate from the original story that much? I mean the difference in the quality of S1-4 and S5 onward is drastic and it gets amplified with every season.

[The hairy bear]

George always claimed (as in this interview) that it was only so that he could focus on writing TWOW.

I don't think there's any indication that George had any fight with D&D. It's much easier to assume that he wanted to focus on his work so that he finished the book before the end of the show (he thought that was possible back then), and probably he didn't felt as much comfortable writing scripts for characters that at that point had already diverged from his ones.

[TargBastard0]

45 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

George always claimed (as in this interview) that it was only so that he could focus on writing TWOW.

I don't think there's any indication that George had any fight with D&D. It's much easier to assume that he wanted to focus on his work so that he finished the book before the end of the show (he thought that was possible back then), and probably he didn't felt as much comfortable writing scripts for characters that at that point had already diverged from his ones.

That dosnt make much sense to me - if he was focusing on writing TWOW it should have been released already. If anything it should be in the final stages of it but GRRM sounds like he is in the middle of it right now(at least from the last of his blog posts it sounds so to me). Also he actually produced 2 other books after ADWD...

Also if he has not left them he could have helped - what happened with the show is a complete disaster.

[Lord Varys]

There was serious disagreement there behind the scenes. You can see that with the change in the credits where things originally were 'written by' the writers of the episodes which eventually turned to 'written for television by' the writers of the episodes.

That is not something that just happens, somebody must have wanted it to happen.

George never distanced himself from this travesty ... but that's likely because it made him very rich. But from an artistic point of view he cannot have been happy with anything that happened from season 4 onwards. He didn't like the whole Talisa thing, either, nor do I think he enjoyed the Qarth plot of season 2 very much - which was just badly written and poorly executed.

[TargBastard0]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There was serious disagreement there behind the scenes. You can see that with the change in the credits where things originally were 'written by' the writers of the episodes which eventually turned to 'written for television by' the writers of the episodes.

That is not something that just happens, somebody must have wanted it to happen.

George never distanced himself from this travesty ... but that's likely because it made him very rich. But from an artistic point of view he cannot have been happy with anything that happened from season 4 onwards. He didn't like the whole Talisa thing, either, nor do I think he enjoyed the Qarth plot of season 2 very much - which was just badly written and poorly executed.

 

Interesting - do you remember when that change occurred?

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, bluntt said:

Interesting - do you remember when that change occurred?

I don't recall exactly, but I think either at the break of season 3-4 or 4-5.

[BlackLightning]

4 hours ago, bluntt said:

Interesting - do you remember when that change occurred?

I happened after season 4. 

[The hairy bear]

7 hours ago, bluntt said:

Also if he has not left them he could have helped - what happened with the show is a complete disaster.

There's no way that George or anyone else could have salvaged the show by writing one episode per year. His best course of action was to distance himself from that mess.

And in any case, if with the time that he would have spent writing an episode for the TV show George has been able to write a single page of TWOW or FIB, I count myself lucky. Even at its best, the show had always been a poor shadow of the books.

 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

I happened after season 4. 

It's somehow ironic they were credited as "writers" during the seasons where they still kept some degree of faithfulness to the books (with all their shortcomings and absurd changes), and when let their imagination go wild and ceased to pay any respect to the original material they started to be credited as "adaptators".

[TargBastard0]

17 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

There's no way that George or anyone else could have salvaged the show by writing one episode per year. His best course of action was to distance himself from that mess.

And in any case, if with the time that he would have spent writing an episode for the TV show George has been able to write a single page of TWOW or FIB, I count myself lucky. Even at its best, the show had always been a poor shadow of the books.

 

It's somehow ironic they were credited as "writers" during the seasons where they still kept some degree of faithfulness to the books (with all their shortcomings and absurd changes), and when let their imagination go wild and ceased to pay any respect to the original material they started to be credited as "adaptators".

Well i dont know... seasons 1-4 were quite ok with George on board. Something drastic happened at season 5, some inertia-good vibes managed to cover it until the end of s6 + some good visuals. In s7 the shit finally hit the fan, but honestly i feel if they did try to make the worst version of s8 on purpose they would not have ended with what actually happened. Literally every episode was bad. I know some of you might say s08e02 was good but thats because it was not that stupid as the rest and you start to think its actually good.

Anyway my theory is something major happened between DnD and GRRM - like in major major disagreement, even a "fight". GRRM probably had really strict contract with HBO and them + he is like fame seeker and decided to go with the flow.

But i believe GRRMs legacy just took a huge blow... if he dosnt publish the last chapters now the ending from the show will be the only end people will get and... its disappointing - what could have been the greatest fantasy series getting ruined by its TV adaptation...

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It's somehow ironic they were credited as "writers" during the seasons where they still kept some degree of faithfulness to the books (with all their shortcomings and absurd changes), and when let their imagination go wild and ceased to pay any respect to the original material they started to be credited as "adaptators".

If I had to guess this was done when George cut his ties with the entire writing process of the show and when he wanted to make it clear that the show isn't his book series, something he apparently wasn't that keen on stressing back when he was still part of the writing process.

You use something along the lines of 'written for television' not just to mark that it is an adaptation but also to mark it is not particularly faithful adaptation. It is not as bad as 'inspired by', of course. This is a significant change especially in light of the fact that they were going with a 'written by' for the first four seasons.

And, in fact, very major diversions from the source material were made during the writing process of season 4. George's script for season 4 still included buildup for the future Jeyne Poole plot, meaning back when he was writing this thing it had not been decided not to go down that road. And unless I'm misremembering season 4 also had a lot of nonsense with that Craster's Keep plot, not to mention the botched Tyrion-Shae story, etc. All that was likely not something George was keen to involve himself with any further on a creative level. Even less so when it became clear they had no intention to properly try to adapt AFfC and ADwD.

[The Map Guy]

If I had to guess the point where GRRM and D&D fought, it was over Lady Stoneheart.

D&D came to GRRM because of the book Red Wedding and they wanted to make a lot of money off it ... and they did.
TV RW was the selling point of Game of Thrones. It was the reason why the series gained so so many fans.

BUT for the ASOIAF story, GRRM needed Lady Stoneheart to be resurrected.
I bet D&D wanted to keep LSH from the TV show so the emotional effects of the RW can linger on.
I'm sure D&D thought that resurrecting Catelyn would cheapen the TV RW, so they wanted to leave her out completely for future seasons.

And then GRRM and D&D fought.
GRRM had a big plan for LSH, a very artistic plan for her ... but D&D refused resurrect her.
Since then, GRRM probably distanced himself from the show.
He allowed some plot changes for the show S1-S4.
But by not including LSH, GRRM realizes it is not his story anymore. Let the dumb asses figure it out without him.

And D&D failed. Big time.

GRRM was obligated to help them though because of the TV deal.
So GRRM gave them plot points for the rest of the series and the ending.
GRRM told them the truth, BUT not the full truth.
He knew D&D could not handle the real truth up to this point.
 

These are probably some of his Yes and No. Yes and No ... truths but not full truths ... major events of the story, but no given timeline.

GRRM: "Longclaw needs a 'Here I Stand' moment and needs to get an epic unsheathing. I want to hear the steel slide off."
D&D thinking by themselves: "Jon at BoB!"

GRRM thoughts after watching the scene: No you idiots! Stannis wins the Battle of Winterfell, there is no BoB.

 

GRRM: "Viserion becomes an Ice Dragon by the Others. Rhaegal ... lets say he gets killed mid-air."
D&D thinking by themselves: "Let's have Euron kill Rhaegal ... because ... I don't know, because Dany kinda forgot!"

GRRM thoughts after watching the scene: I am glad I let go of these idiots many years ago. They have no clue on how to be artistic.

 

GRRM: "Jaime dies at King's Landing. He will be recognized by his golden-hand."
D&D thinking by themselves: "Tyrion finds his body and golden-hand. It will be sad!"

GRRM thoughts after watching the scene: That was actually not bad, and totally sad. BUT that was all Peter Dinklage though. Those assholes already destroyed Jaime's arc before this scene, and Jaime's death was cheap & random here.

GRRM: "Ser Robert Strong is going smash the head of someone pissing at the sight of him"
D&D thinking by themselves: "Who can this be?? Which one of our remaining characters are expendable? Eh whatevers! How about we just make it a random nobody! We are still technically following GRRM's notes ... right?"

GRRM thoughts after watching the scene: WTF WAS THAT?? I gave you guys my notes and you do this random stupid shit with it? Thanks for investing 50 actors to make the sequence/notes happen, BUT all the watchers are going to ask what was the point of this scene?? Damn these guys know nothing about art, clever writing and themes ... did they even graduate from their 8th grade writing classes?? Whatevers! I will write something artsy and clever about Robert Strong smashing someone's head while they are pissing in TWOW! Themes matter! Also ... I wonder if any of my readers picked up on the theme that males with Martell DNA tend to be unlucky?

[TargBastard0]

8 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

If I had to guess the point where GRRM and D&D fought, it was over Lady Stoneheart.

D&D came to GRRM because of the book Red Wedding and they wanted to make a lot of money off it ... and they did.
TV RW was the selling point of Game of Thrones. It was the reason why the series gained so so many fans.

BUT for the ASOIAF story, GRRM needed Lady Stoneheart to be resurrected.
I bet D&D wanted to keep LSH from the TV show so the emotional effects of the RW can linger on.
I'm sure D&D thought that resurrecting Catelyn would cheapen the TV RW, so they wanted to leave her out completely for future seasons.

And then GRRM and D&D fought.
GRRM had a big plan for LSH, a very artistic plan for her ... but D&D refused resurrect her.
Since then, GRRM probably distanced himself from the show.
He allowed some plot changes for the show S1-S4.
But by not including LSH, GRRM realizes it is not his story anymore. Let the dumb asses figure it out without him.

And D&D failed. Big time.

GRRM was obligated to help them though because of the TV deal.
So GRRM gave them plot points for the rest of the series and the ending.
GRRM told them the truth, BUT not the full truth.
He knew D&D could not handle the real truth up to this point.
 

These are probably some of his Yes and No. Yes and No ... truths but not full truths ... major events of the story, but no given timeline.

GRRM: "Longclaw needs a 'Here I Stand' moment and needs to get an epic unsheathing. I want to hear the steel slide off."
D&D thinking by themselves: "Jon at BoB!"

GRRM thoughts after watching the scene: No you idiots! Stannis wins the Battle of Winterfell, there is no BoB.

 

GRRM: "Viserion becomes an Ice Dragon by the Others. Rhaegal ... lets say he gets killed mid-air."
D&D thinking by themselves: "Let's have Euron kill Rhaegal ... because ... I don't know, because Dany kinda forgot!"

GRRM thoughts after watching the scene: I am glad I let go of these idiots many years ago. They have no clue on how to be artistic.

 

GRRM: "Jaime dies at King's Landing. He will be recognized by his golden-hand."
D&D thinking by themselves: "Tyrion finds his body and golden-hand. It will be sad!"

GRRM thoughts after watching the scene: That was actually not bad, and totally sad. BUT that was all Peter Dinklage though. Those assholes already destroyed Jaime's arc before this scene, and Jaime's death was cheap & random here.

GRRM: "Ser Robert Strong is going smash the head of someone pissing at the sight of him"
D&D thinking by themselves: "Who can this be?? Which one of our remaining characters are expendable? Eh whatevers! How about we just make it a random nobody! We are still technically following GRRM's notes ... right?"

GRRM thoughts after watching the scene: WTF WAS THAT?? I gave you guys my notes and you do this random stupid shit with it? Thanks for investing 50 actors to make the sequence/notes happen, BUT all the watchers are going to ask what was the point of this scene?? Damn these guys know nothing about art, clever writing and themes ... did they even graduate from their 8th grade writing classes?? Whatevers! I will write something artsy and clever about Robert Strong smashing someone's head while they are pissing in TWOW! Themes matter! Also ... I wonder if any of my readers picked up on the theme that males with Martell DNA tend to be unlucky?

It was strange to not try to include LSH plot line in the show - its such a interesting story line. I wonder who got her plotline resulutions? Arya comes in mind but who else?

 

[The Map Guy]

14 minutes ago, bluntt said:

It was strange to not try to include LSH plot line in the show - its such a interesting story line. I wonder who got her plotline resulutions? Arya comes in mind but who else?

I don't think anyone did ... D&D just continued merrily with Beric and Thoros ... which most people kinda forgot about them in the show.
They tried to justify Beric's six resurrections as the plot to protect Arya's life during the Long Night.

It was cheap writing. Arya had plenty of chances to die before reuniting with BwB.

Why single out that one with Beric?

 

I'm sure everyone rolled their eyes when Mel told the audience Beric's resurrections was for Arya.

And then the Lord of Light just ... fucks off. 

[Ghostlydragon]

On 5/19/2020 at 3:00 PM, The Map Guy said:

 

And then the Lord of Light just ... fucks off. 

Just like the audience