The Pact, The Night’s King, and the Long Night

[level52]

I'm certain that someone else must have come up with this theory but I simply can't find it here, on Reddit, or on Youtube.  If you take the time to read this, please point me to the right direction where I can see who has a more refined and supported version.

Here's the basic premise: facing extinction, the COTF converted some humans into Others which pressured humans into agreeing to the Pact.  However these original Others - while strong and resistant to standard human weapons - could be defeated easily with obsidian weapons and could not warg, greensee, or raise the dead.  The tale of the Night's King is the origin story of how the Others gained the ability to raise the dead, making them far more powerful and difficult to defeat, and this additional power (along with possibly greenseeing and warging) lead to the Long Night.


The God's Eye Pact

We learn from TWOIAF that in the Dawn Age the First Men warred with the COTF and easily defeated them, spreading across Westeros, felling Weirwood trees, and pushing the COTF forest to near extinction.  Then, for some unexplained reason, the First Men made a peace agreement with the COTF. Notice the motivation of the First Men is glossed over in TWOIAF with the line "The First Men, perhaps tired of the war, also wished to see an end to the fighting."  When an author glosses a seemingly major detail it's usually because that detail involves a major secret. The most likely reason the First Men agreed to peace is the COTF created the Others and coerced them.  The original Others would have been large, strong, and impervious to metal weapons.  They may have been contained by an early version of the Wall or COTF magic; they were powerful but were easily killed by dragonglass, a precaution built in by the COTF.  And for millennia they held the First Men in check as the First Men and COTF lived in relative peace.   From TWOIAF we learn The Pact began the Age of Heroes began and "extended through the thousands of years in which the First Men and children lived in peace with one another".  

There's been much debate about whether the Wall and the Night's Watch came before or after the Long Night.  Many of the legends assume the both arose after the Long Night.  But notice that Maester Yandel gives us a major clue on page 10 of TWOIAF: he writes that many legends can't be trusted and gives as an example the story of the ancient figure Serwyen of the Mirror Shield guarding Targaryen kings as a member of the Kingsguard, an instituion that wasn't formed until thousands of years after Serwyen lived.  Maester Yandel is saying that historical figures and the institutions they belong to are frequently misrepresented in the retelling of legends.  And  he gives this warning immediately before delving into The Long Night on the following page.   So this should raise major red flags in our minds when we read this or that figure was a member or lord commander of the Night's Watch, or whether the Night's Watch came before or after the Wall, or whether the Wall came before or after the Others, and so on.


The Night's King

TWOIAF informs us the Starks had a long history of conquest of the other First Men of Westeros, often stealing the wives of conquered people and interbreeding with them.  Readers should already be familiar with this Stark practice so there's no need to repeat the evidence here.  The Kings of Winter section from TWOIAF describes that both the Barrow Kings and Warg Kings were among those that submitted to the Starks and whose wives were taken as brides.  Although not explicitly stated, it's likely through this interbreeding that the Starks took on some of the magic of conquered people and enhanced the power of their own bloodlines.

Now we come to the oft-discussed story of the Night's King, and accept as truth Old Nan's claim the Night's King was a Stark.  This tale has been widely misinterpreted as the story of a human falling in love and having children with a female Other.  Except for the blue eyes, descriptions of the Night's Queen make her sound more like a corpse, as she's described by Bran's retelling of Old Nan's tale of the Night's King as having skin "as white as the moon" and "cold as ice".  These traits are associated with corpses, making it likely she was a sorceress from the Barrowlands with power over the dead. TWOIAF makes this explicit when it suggests the Night's King "bedded a sorceress as pale as a corpse" and that "some suggest that perhaps the corpse queen was a woman of the Barrowlands, a daughter of the Barrow King who was then a power in his own right, and oft associated with graves." Also consider that TWOIAF notes that after being conquered by a Stark King, the Barrow King "Gave him the hand of his daughter in marriage."

So we should consider the suggestion the Night's Queen was a literal female Other as mere legend.  It's far more likely she was a Barrowland sorceress with powers over the dead.    Now imagine if she and a Stark lord (who may have had the power of warging and greenseeing in his blood) had children: these children would have the power to warg, greensee, and raise the dead.  And if these children were given over to the Others as the stories suggest and converted to Others in a similar way to the tv show, you'd end up with powerful ice creatures with the ability to warg, greensee, and raise the dead.  These Others would have the powers described in legends of the Long Night and seen on the show.

But why would a Barrowland sorceress and Stark lord give their babies over to the Others and create an army of nearly invincible ice demons?  It's likely the story is more complicated and we're missing crucial information.  Possibly the pair weren't simply handing over their babies to the Others but instead using the Others imbue their own children with ice powers; and maybe this partially worked, hence the Starks and their affinity for cold.  

The Long Night

Now considering the previous sections an explanation of the Long Night easily follows: the Others, created by the COTF but possessing limited powers, suddenly were given the ability to greensee, warg, and raise the dead.  Very abruptly the Others used their newfound powers to sweep across Westeros and nearly wipe all life from the continent.  How they were defeated is a mystery itself and I will not speculate here.

[Lady Topspin]

The corpse queen came from the north side of the wall.  She was an Other.  She sought the commander because he is a Stark.  Ice mates with ice.  The children would have the power to warg. 

[Lady Topspin]

5 hours ago, level52 said:

But why would a Barrowland sorceress and Stark lord give their babies over to the Others and create an army of nearly invincible ice demons?  It's likely the story is more complicated and we're missing crucial information.  Possibly the pair weren't simply handing over their babies to the Others but instead using the Others imbue their own children with ice powers; and maybe this partially worked, hence the Starks and their affinity for cold. 

The Starks made a pact to continue sacrificing to the trees in exchange for the power to dominate the north.  Rickard died before he could pass the family secret to Ned.  That is what I believe.

[divica]

14 minutes ago, Lady Topspin said:

The Starks made a pact to continue sacrificing to the trees in exchange for the power to dominate the north.  Rickard died before he could pass the family secret to Ned.  That is what I believe.

That doesn t really make sense.

It it much more belivable that the starks made a pact to worship the old gods and that the cotf gave them the power to unite the first men and make them uphold the pact.

However it is extremly unlikely that rickard knew of any pact or that there are still blood sacrífices… Do you think all the people rickard trust died with him? That nobody would have told the truth to ned?

[kissdbyfire]

53 minutes ago, divica said:

That doesn t really make sense.

I agree, it really doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. As to the OP, there’s too much to get into at the moment. But for now I’ll just say that you are making too many unsupported assumptions. 

[divica]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree, it really doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. As to the OP, there’s too much to get into at the moment. But for now I’ll just say that you are making too many unsupported assumptions. 

Well we do know there was a pact to worship the old gods. And that the skinchanging powers must come from somewhere... The most likely scenario is the CoTF.

It actually makes sense that the first men would accept to trade their faith for the power of their enemies... 

[level52]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree, it really doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. As to the OP, there’s too much to get into at the moment. But for now I’ll just say that you are making too many unsupported assumptions. 

You’re right I’m making a lot of assumptions; but the books don’t give us enough information to unlock the mysteries of the Long Night or else people would have solved them years ago.

Which assumptions do you find to be the most unsupported?   

[level52]

16 hours ago, Lady Topspin said:

The corpse queen came from the north side of the wall.  She was an Other.  She sought the commander because he is a Stark.  Ice mates with ice.  The children would have the power to warg. 

It seems to me that actual sex between an Other and a human isn’t physically possible.  

[level52]

16 hours ago, Lady Topspin said:

The Starks made a pact to continue sacrificing to the trees in exchange for the power to dominate the north.  Rickard died before he could pass the family secret to Ned.  That is what I believe.

I do believe an alternative reason for the Pact is the COTF agreed to share their magic with the humans in exchange for ending the bloodshed.  

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, level52 said:

It seems to me that actual sex between an Other and a human isn’t physically possible.  

He loved her and she took his soul.  I suspect his eyes turned blue at this point.  I don't think we're talking about the physical act.  Giving her his seed, may refer to his living offspring.  The NW did not have a code that said they couldn't sire children until much later.  So the sacrificing probably had something to do with giving his children to her.   For what purpose?  If old Nan's stories are anything to go by then I would point to the thing that comes in the night to 4 apprentice boys.  Three died and one went mad (Mad Axe).  

He comes to them in their dreams with a different face.  They may be potential greenseers and their death a result of failing the test that Bran undergoes.

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, level52 said:

You’re right I’m making a lot of assumptions; but the books don’t give us enough information to unlock the mysteries of the Long Night or else people would have solved them years ago.

Which assumptions do you find to be the most unsupported?   

Sorry, I didn’t mean to come across as a naysayer w/o adding anything else. It’s just been a very busy week, and instead of just following the thread to post later I just posted something very basic and quick. 

And btw, welcome to the forums.

On 5/16/2020 at 2:27 PM, level52 said:

I'm certain that someone else must have come up with this theory but I simply can't find it here, on Reddit, or on Youtube.  If you take the time to read this, please point me to the right direction where I can see who has a more refined and supported version.

Here's the basic premise: facing extinction, the COTF converted some humans into Others which pressured humans into agreeing to the Pact.  However these original Others - while strong and resistant to standard human weapons - could be defeated easily with obsidian weapons and could not warg, greensee, or raise the dead.  The tale of the Night's King is the origin story of how the Others gained the ability to raise the dead, making them far more powerful and difficult to defeat, and this additional power (along with possibly greenseeing and warging) lead to the Long Night.

So, why do think this is what happened? To put it differently, how did you come up w/ the idea? What clues or hints, which passage(s) in the books led you to this theory? It’s true we don’t know much about any of it, the CotF, the WWs, the Pact, none of it has been explained yet, and even the clues and hints are very few and far between. Still, it doesn’t quite work (for me) to just fcome up w/ an explanation whose only merit is that it isn’t impossible. 

For instance, you say the CotF converted - how? - some humans into Others to avoid extinction. How many? Because “some” are not going to be enough to defeat who knows how many thousands upon thousands of First Men. Then you bring up the fact that the Others are vulnerable to obsidian, but how would anyone find out? I mean, it’s not like the FM used obsidian for anything, let alone weapons. Also, “warg” is applied only in relation to wolves; for everything else the term is “skinchanging”. 

On 5/16/2020 at 2:27 PM, level52 said:

The God's Eye Pact

We learn from TWOIAF that in the Dawn Age the First Men warred with the COTF and easily defeated them, spreading across Westeros, felling Weirwood trees, and pushing the COTF forest to near extinction.  Then, for some unexplained reason, the First Men made a peace agreement with the COTF. Notice the motivation of the First Men is glossed over in TWOIAF with the line "The First Men, perhaps tired of the war, also wished to see an end to the fighting."  When an author glosses a seemingly major detail it's usually because that detail involves a major secret. The most likely reason the First Men agreed to peace is the COTF created the Others and coerced them.  The original Others would have been large, strong, and impervious to metal weapons.  They may have been contained by an early version of the Wall or COTF magic; they were powerful but were easily killed by dragonglass, a precaution built in by the COTF.  And for millennia they held the First Men in check as the First Men and COTF lived in relative peace.   From TWOIAF we learn The Pact began the Age of Heroes began and "extended through the thousands of years in which the First Men and children lived in peace with one another".  

The reason is not unexplained. We have the explanation maester Luwin gives Bran, which is repeated in TWoIaF. And it is an explanation that works and makes perfect sense. The constant warring was hurting both FM and the CotF. 

AGoT, Bran VII

"But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

On 5/16/2020 at 2:27 PM, level52 said:

There's been much debate about whether the Wall and the Night's Watch came before or after the Long Night.  Many of the legends assume the both arose after the Long Night.  But notice that Maester Yandel gives us a major clue on page 10 of TWOIAF: he writes that many legends can't be trusted and gives as an example the story of the ancient figure Serwyen of the Mirror Shield guarding Targaryen kings as a member of the Kingsguard, an instituion that wasn't formed until thousands of years after Serwyen lived.  Maester Yandel is saying that historical figures and the institutions they belong to are frequently misrepresented in the retelling of legends.  And  he gives this warning immediately before delving into The Long Night on the following page.   So this should raise major red flags in our minds when we read this or that figure was a member or lord commander of the Night's Watch, or whether the Night's Watch came before or after the Wall, or whether the Wall came before or after the Others, and so on.

I don’t think there’s much debate about which came first. The Wall was raised after the LN, after all, it took hundreds of years for it to be built. As to the NW, I think those who fought the Others can be seen as a sort of proto-NW. But the the NW itself was formed after the LN. IMO. Also, the world book is meant to be ambiguous and we’re supposed to question things, but not all of it. Chaff, wheat. 

On 5/16/2020 at 2:27 PM, level52 said:

The Night's King

TWOIAF informs us the Starks had a long history of conquest of the other First Men of Westeros, often stealing the wives of conquered people and interbreeding with them.  Readers should already be familiar with this Stark practice so there's no need to repeat the evidence here.  The Kings of Winter section from TWOIAF describes that both the Barrow Kings and Warg Kings were among those that submitted to the Starks and whose wives were taken as brides.  Although not explicitly stated, it's likely through this interbreeding that the Starks took on some of the magic of conquered people and enhanced the power of their own bloodlines.

Now we come to the oft-discussed story of the Night's King, and accept as truth Old Nan's claim the Night's King was a Stark.  This tale has been widely misinterpreted as the story of a human falling in love and having children with a female Other.  Except for the blue eyes, descriptions of the Night's Queen make her sound more like a corpse, as she's described by Bran's retelling of Old Nan's tale of the Night's King as having skin "as white as the moon" and "cold as ice".  These traits are associated with corpses, making it likely she was a sorceress from the Barrowlands with power over the dead. TWOIAF makes this explicit when it suggests the Night's King "bedded a sorceress as pale as a corpse" and that "some suggest that perhaps the corpse queen was a woman of the Barrowlands, a daughter of the Barrow King who was then a power in his own right, and oft associated with graves." Also consider that TWOIAF notes that after being conquered by a Stark King, the Barrow King "Gave him the hand of his daughter in marriage."

Wait, but now we should take the world book as gospel? 

And why should we accept Old Nan’s stories as the truth? I sure don’t... Sure, she has knowledge. But here she’s trying to please Bran, who likes the scary stories. So not only the NK was a Stark, but a Brandon!

On 5/16/2020 at 2:27 PM, level52 said:

So we should consider the suggestion the Night's Queen was a literal female Other as mere legend.  It's far more likely she was a Barrowland sorceress with powers over the dead.    Now imagine if she and a Stark lord (who may have had the power of warging and greenseeing in his blood) had children: these children would have the power to warg, greensee, and raise the dead.  And if these children were given over to the Others as the stories suggest and converted to Others in a similar way to the tv show, you'd end up with powerful ice creatures with the ability to warg, greensee, and raise the dead.  These Others would have the powers described in legends of the Long Night and seen on the show.

But why would a Barrowland sorceress and Stark lord give their babies over to the Others and create an army of nearly invincible ice demons?  It's likely the story is more complicated and we're missing crucial information.  Possibly the pair weren't simply handing over their babies to the Others but instead using the Others imbue their own children with ice powers; and maybe this partially worked, hence the Starks and their affinity for cold.  

The Long Night

Now considering the previous sections an explanation of the Long Night easily follows: the Others, created by the COTF but possessing limited powers, suddenly were given the ability to greensee, warg, and raise the dead.  Very abruptly the Others used their newfound powers to sweep across Westeros and nearly wipe all life from the continent.  How they were defeated is a mystery itself and I will not speculate here.

I’m out of time now. But this doesn’t really make sense to me. Especially the bolded parts. And nothing, absolutely nothing the abomination did makes any sense whatsoever, in any of the universes that exist.

 

[sweetsunray]

I'm with @kissdbyfire on this:

To the OP:

George throws in certain conflicting legends in the world book, but that doesn't mean one cannot reason it out.

The pact between the CotF and FM occurred at the Gods Eye. The reason for it was clear: CotF believe they coudln't win, but the FM also had their victories at great cost of lives. The location also helps us understand how far the FM had managed to migrate and conquer across Westeros - FM had only conquered south of the Riverlands, but not beyond yet. How do we know this? Because of the Riverland forests. FM took down large forests to turn them into pastures and to hack down weirwoods. If the FM had managed to get as far as the Neck already or even further north, before the pact between CotF and FM, then the Riverland forests would have been nearly non existent. Enemies tend to make peace pacts in the zone where the lines of division are.

We therefore can dismiss any legend of CotF using the Hammer of the Waters to prevent the FM from migrating further north. We can also dismiss such legend, because CotF didn't build huge structures like Moat Cailin, and the location of Moat Cailin actually evidences that the Neck was already a swamp when it was built. And the so called power of CotF greenseers in those legends are absurd, given what we learn of their true abilities - they see the truth in the past. We do know though that the FM managed to repel the Andals at Moat Cailin and the Neck, and the poetic description of the powers of Howland Reed, point more to some type of flooding system that the Crannogmen use. Since the Andals did wage war against the CotF and the First Men in the Riverlands, and lost a lot of their soldiers in their attempt to pass the Neck, this is the likely battle that is the source of the Hammer of the Waters legend between CotF and FM. Both smallfolk, singers and Andals have a habbit of retroactively inserting Andal stuff into a past that precedes their arrival.

Anyway, the Pact between CotF and FM has the FM agree to leave the forest alone and it remains the habitat for the CotF. The FM are free to farm, raise crops and herd cattle on pastures on any other type of land. Hence the Riverland forests survive, and the FM migrate beyond the forests, cross the Neck, into the present day North and farther and farther they go, with the Thenns settling even as far as their hidden vale. Hundreds if not thousand years have passed. People start to encrouch on the native territory of the Others.

As for the Long Night and Night's King: the histories and timeline are very clear about it. It's only readers who muddy the waters. The Wall is built after the Long Night, and Night's King was the 13th commander of the NW. While there was some type of proto-NW functioning in an attempt to keep the Others at bay during the Long Night, the Wall itself was built afterwards and the NW became only a tradtion after the victory to repel Others. Night's King became a commander after the Wall was finished, which took years and generations to build. Night's King lived in the Age of Heroes, but he did not live during the Long Night.

[level52]

On 5/18/2020 at 1:43 AM, sweetsunray said:

I'm with @kissdbyfire on this:

To the OP:

George throws in certain conflicting legends in the world book, but that doesn't mean one cannot reason it out.

The pact between the CotF and FM occurred at the Gods Eye. The reason for it was clear: CotF believe they coudln't win, but the FM also had their victories at great cost of lives. The location also helps us understand how far the FM had managed to migrate and conquer across Westeros - FM had only conquered south of the Riverlands, but not beyond yet. How do we know this? Because of the Riverland forests. FM took down large forests to turn them into pastures and to hack down weirwoods. If the FM had managed to get as far as the Neck already or even further north, before the pact between CotF and FM, then the Riverland forests would have been nearly non existent. Enemies tend to make peace pacts in the zone where the lines of division are.

We therefore can dismiss any legend of CotF using the Hammer of the Waters to prevent the FM from migrating further north. We can also dismiss such legend, because CotF didn't build huge structures like Moat Cailin, and the location of Moat Cailin actually evidences that the Neck was already a swamp when it was built. And the so called power of CotF greenseers in those legends are absurd, given what we learn of their true abilities - they see the truth in the past. We do know though that the FM managed to repel the Andals at Moat Cailin and the Neck, and the poetic description of the powers of Howland Reed, point more to some type of flooding system that the Crannogmen use. Since the Andals did wage war against the CotF and the First Men in the Riverlands, and lost a lot of their soldiers in their attempt to pass the Neck, this is the likely battle that is the source of the Hammer of the Waters legend between CotF and FM. Both smallfolk, singers and Andals have a habbit of retroactively inserting Andal stuff into a past that precedes their arrival.

Anyway, the Pact between CotF and FM has the FM agree to leave the forest alone and it remains the habitat for the CotF. The FM are free to farm, raise crops and herd cattle on pastures on any other type of land. Hence the Riverland forests survive, and the FM migrate beyond the forests, cross the Neck, into the present day North and farther and farther they go, with the Thenns settling even as far as their hidden vale. Hundreds if not thousand years have passed. People start to encrouch on the native territory of the Others.

As for the Long Night and Night's King: the histories and timeline are very clear about it. It's only readers who muddy the waters. The Wall is built after the Long Night, and Night's King was the 13th commander of the NW. While there was some type of proto-NW functioning in an attempt to keep the Others at bay during the Long Night, the Wall itself was built afterwards and the NW became only a tradtion after the victory to repel Others. Night's King became a commander after the Wall was finished, which took years and generations to build. Night's King lived in the Age of Heroes, but he did not live during the Long Night.

Can we really be certain the wall (in some form) or the Night’s Watch came after the Others?  We’re told explicitly in TWOIAF (on the very page preceding the section ‘The Long Night’) that institutions and historical figures that existed at different time periods mixed up in the retelling of legends.  To me that explains why no fan theories have fully explained the Long Night; all the available information isn’t compatible with the truth. 

[level52]

On 5/17/2020 at 6:12 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Sorry, I didn’t mean to come across as a naysayer w/o adding anything else. It’s just been a very busy week, and instead of just following the thread to post later I just posted something very basic and quick. 

And btw, welcome to the forums.

So, why do think this is what happened? To put it differently, how did you come up w/ the idea? What clues or hints, which passage(s) in the books led you to this theory? It’s true we don’t know much about any of it, the CotF, the WWs, the Pact, none of it has been explained yet, and even the clues and hints are very few and far between. Still, it doesn’t quite work (for me) to just fcome up w/ an explanation whose only merit is that it isn’t impossible. 

For instance, you say the CotF converted - how? - some humans into Others to avoid extinction. How many? Because “some” are not going to be enough to defeat who knows how many thousands upon thousands of First Men. Then you bring up the fact that the Others are vulnerable to obsidian, but how would anyone find out? I mean, it’s not like the FM used obsidian for anything, let alone weapons. Also, “warg” is applied only in relation to wolves; for everything else the term is “skinchanging”. 

The reason is not unexplained. We have the explanation maester Luwin gives Bran, which is repeated in TWoIaF. And it is an explanation that works and makes perfect sense. The constant warring was hurting both FM and the CotF. 

AGoT, Bran VII

"But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

I don’t think there’s much debate about which came first. The Wall was raised after the LN, after all, it took hundreds of years for it to be built. As to the NW, I think those who fought the Others can be seen as a sort of proto-NW. But the the NW itself was formed after the LN. IMO. Also, the world book is meant to be ambiguous and we’re supposed to question things, but not all of it. Chaff, wheat. 

Wait, but now we should take the world book as gospel? 

And why should we accept Old Nan’s stories as the truth? I sure don’t... Sure, she has knowledge. But here she’s trying to please Bran, who likes the scary stories. So not only the NK was a Stark, but a Brandon!

I’m out of time now. But this doesn’t really make sense to me. Especially the bolded parts. And nothing, absolutely nothing the abomination did makes any sense whatsoever, in any of the universes that exist.

 

Thank you for the long and well thought reply.  

As far as the timeline goes the books do suggest the wall was erected after the Long Night but we’re reminded frequently that legends are distorted.  I wouldn’t expect the Wall was built in it’s entirety before the Long Night ensued; it’s the spells that really keep the Others at bay anyway.  Also, TWOIAF notes it was the Pearl Emperor who may have raised the 5 Forts to protect the Great Empire from the Lion of Night, so for YiTi it’s implied the fortifications were built well before the their Long Night. (The Blood Betrayal was many generations after the Pearl Emperor).  So that could be a clue the Wall was also built prior to the invasion of Others. 

I’m basing my entire premise on the idea that humans were converted to Others.  If the COTF didn’t convert humans the whole premise falls apart.  

So how many humans?  I don’t know.  It would take only a handful of Others to wipe out a village of First Men who would be defenseless with bronze and wooden weapons.  The COTF could perhaps have controlled them (by warging then maybe) or just destroyed them afterwards, or perhaps the original humans converted to Others were allies of the COTF and willingly converted.  
 

And both the main series and TWOIAF gloss over the decision my First Men to agree to a peace.  They both agree the First Men were winning so no real motivation is given.  Perhaps we are to assume the COTF traded their magic for peace, I’d buy that explanation.

But if one does accept that the Others were created by the COTF, why did the Children gives the Others the ability to raise the dead? And why create the Others after the Pact?  Perhaps readers may reject the TV series explanation the Others came from the COTF, if so that’s fair enough.  

[corbon]

18 minutes ago, level52 said:

I’m basing my entire premise on the idea that humans were converted to Others.  If the COTF didn’t convert humans the whole premise falls apart. 

And what is the basis for this idea?

Surely something more than Craster's wives' vague and unlikely beliefs? 

[sweetsunray]

12 hours ago, level52 said:

Can we really be certain the wall (in some form) or the Night’s Watch came after the Others?  We’re told explicitly in TWOIAF (on the very page preceding the section ‘The Long Night’) that institutions and historical figures that existed at different time periods mixed up in the retelling of legends.

This is about Age of Heroes characters being called kingsguard or knights in a pre-Andal era. Meanwhile the series itself makes clear that over time the NW believed their role was to keep the Free Folk out, when it was actually set up against the Others.

12 hours ago, level52 said:

 To me that explains why no fan theories have fully explained the Long Night; all the available information isn’t compatible with the truth. 

What do you mean with "explain the Long Night". This a certain climate phenomenon where the sun remains absent for years. How is the Night's King living during the Long Night going to explain that? It doesn't.

If you mean that fan theories did not satisfy you in giving an explanation of the existence of Others, their motives, and what Night's King has to do with that - well a majority of those theories confuse Night's King and the Long Night, or they claim Last Hero = Night's King to begin with. The number of fan theories respecting the timeline as Long Night and no Wall, that don't align Night's King with the Last Hero is deplorable. So, your "premisse" imho is the very reason why there are so few satisfying theories on the events of the Long Night or Night's King.