Heresy 231 Alienarea Strikes Again

[LynnS]

40 minutes ago, lalt said:

So personally I don't take that as a direct clue about his identity (it may be, it may be not) but as a sort of indirect clue about the overall narrative of the series, which is heavily influenced by the alchemical/hermetic tradition imo.

Sorry, I wasn't implying that this was a clue about the overall narrative.  I was just chatting and your reference to red and white brought Jaqen to mind and what his hair might say as an indirect clue about his true identity.

43 minutes ago, lalt said:

EDIT: check for Michael Maier: Atlanta fugiens Emblema XXIV - and you'll see what's coming for Jon and Ghost, for instance.

Here at page 76 and following 

I don't follow the frame you are using here although I did look from page 76 on. I'm not sure how this describes where Jon and Ghost are heading.  You will have to summarize that one for me.   

[dialt]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Sorry, I wasn't implying that this was a clue about the overall narrative.  I was just chatting and your reference to red and white brought Jaqen to mind and what his hair might say as an indirect clue about his true identity.

 

No need to be sorry. And... I've got that and what I was trying to say - chatting - is not that one doesn't have to/can't do what you did, but that I never did it, because my focus was on something else. Maybe I should.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't follow the frame you are using here although I did look from page 76 on. I'm not sure how this describes where Jon and Ghost are heading.  You will have to summarize that one for me.   

It's not an easy read for anybody. I mean, people examine this kind of things for ages. But we're not Alchemists. 
We're readers of fiction authors who are inspired by this ecyclopedia of symbolims, weird scenes etc...

However:

A wolf devoured the King, and being burnt it restored him to life again.

I don't think that Ghost is going to eat Jon's body. But... a wolf, a fire (maybe a funeral pyre?) and a King is brought back to life. Because... he's special:

Thinges are far otherwise disposed among the Philosophers. For they certainly know that from their King devoured by a wolf there will appear one that is Alive, Strong and Young, and that the wolf must be burnt in his stead. For when the belly of the wolf is so gorged he will easily be slain, but although the King be dead he hath a Martiall or Cygnean Virtue that he can neither be wounded nor consumed. 

And now that I think about it.... maybe this could also be an inspiration for the "wargs killing and eating skinchangers = how the Others arised" I am leaning towards. It's still confused in my mind. But I think that these are the dots. More or less.

It's still confused in my mind... but I believe that these are pretty much the dots. 

[LynnS]

37 minutes ago, lalt said:

It's still confused in my mind... but I believe that these are pretty much the dots. 

OK, I see.  I'll have to think on it a bit.

[alienarea]

6 hours ago, lalt said:

I don't know it and I am not even sure if it really matters. What caught my attention is the symbolism (and the fact that it is associeted to Arya, Bran and Jon - our 3 main Starks wargs - one way or another). So personally I don't take that as a direct clue about his identity (it may be, it may be not) but as a sort of indirect clue about the overall narrative of the series, which is heavily influenced by the alchemical/hermetic tradition imo.

EDIT: check for Michael Maier: Atlanta fugiens Emblema XXIV - and you'll see what's coming for Jon and Ghost, for instance.

Here at page 76 and following 

But I woudn't rule out the chance that it is also an indirect hint about the FMs.... and their relationship with the old gods. That as you know, I think may existe and may predate by a long shot the current time line.

I wonder whether the FM are somehow based on concepts from the Egyptian "Book of the Dead" and similar concepts from South America. 

[Lady Dyanna]

Before I forget.... There’s a series on Netflix right now called Myths and Monsters. I’ve only watched part of the first episode so far, but it seems like it might be something that would interest a bunch of you. So far the first part is about myths over Europe and how they fit into Joseph Conrad’s Hero Journey. 

[Melifeather]

12 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Before I forget.... There’s a series on Netflix right now called Myths and Monsters. I’ve only watched part of the first episode so far, but it seems like it might be something that would interest a bunch of you. So far the first part is about myths over Europe and how they fit into Joseph Conrad’s Hero Journey. 

I brought this topic up in early March. Very soft response, not quite flacid, but maybe a chubby? 

 

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I brought this topic up in early March. Very soft response, not quite flacid, but maybe a chubby? 

 

  

Well that was before I realized that Netflix was going to do the work for me! Shhhh. I’m familiar but have never read the book. 

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Well that was before I realized that Netflix was going to do the work for me! Shhhh. I’m familiar but have never read the book. 

I would like to but I don't have cable, so I can't watch. 

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I brought this topic up in early March. Very soft response, not quite flacid, but maybe a chubby? 

I did read it and I also brought it up at HoB&W at one time with a similar result.  I'd have to re-read online again and that tires me out pretty quickly.  So, no offense for my lack of input.  I will be interested to read what you have to say about it. 

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I would like to but I don't have cable, so I can't watch. 

I did read it and I also brought it up at HoB&W at one time with a similar result.  I'd have to re-read online again and that tires me out pretty quickly.  So, no offense for my lack of input.  I will be interested to read what you have to say about it. 

No worries! I'm not offended! I just thought it would help spark a conversation about some of the journeys of the various main characters - Jon Snow in particular.

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

No worries! I'm not offended! I just thought it would help spark a conversation about some of the journeys of the various main characters - Jon Snow in particular.

Ok I'll keep that in mind.  While I re-read. 

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

No worries! I'm not offended! I just thought it would help spark a conversation about some of the journeys of the various main characters - Jon Snow in particular.

Can you bring up your post on the stages of the journey again?

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Can you bring up your post on the stages of the journey again?

Click HERE

[LynnS]

Here's the summary with explanation:

http://mythologyteacher.com/documents/TheHeroJourney.pdf

Here are the stages as per Feather's post:

In the beginning there is the status quo. Then:

1) a call to adventure - bargain w/o knowing

2) refusal of the call

3) supernatural aid - meet the mentor

4) crossing the first threshold - the 1st part of the adventure. 

5) belly of the whale - a metamorphosis. A minor danger or setback.

6) Initiation. The road of trials.

7) the meeting with the goddess. Receives items that will help him in future.

8) the woman as temptress. The hero faces physical temptations.

9) atonement with a father figure or entity with life or death power.

10) apotheosis. Greater understanding is achieved.

11) the ultimate boon or reward.

12) the return, and in many cases a refusal to return to an ordinary world to bring the ultimate reward back to the masses.

13) the magic flight. Sometimes the hero has to use magic to escape in order to bring the ultimate boon to the ordinary world.

14) rescue from without. Sometimes the hero needs help from some friend or outsider to escape, especially if wounded or weakened.

15) the crossing of the return threshold. The hero finds it difficult to return to ordinary.

16) master of two worlds. The hero achieves balance between material and spiritual.

17) mastery leads to a freedom from the fear of death. Living in the moment without worrying about the future or the past.

 

We could probably do this for Jon, Arya, Bran, Sansa, Sam, Tyrion, Davos, Brienne and Dany. 

[Melifeather]

Lets see if we can insert Jon into these:

1) a call to adventure - bargain w/o knowing - Jon wants to be like Benjen and declares his desire to join the Watch

2) refusal of the call - Jon's defection attempt after hearing Robb marched south with an army.

3) supernatural aid - meet the mentor - Jon is visited by Bran in his dream

4) crossing the first threshold - the 1st part of the adventure.  - Jon saves LC Jeor Mormont from wights, is later given Longclaw

5) belly of the whale - a metamorphosis. A minor danger or setback. - Jon kills Qhorin

6) Initiation. The road of trials. - Jon "joins" the wildlings

7) the meeting with the goddess. Receives items that will help him in future. ???

8) the woman as temptress. The hero faces physical temptations. - Jon's relationship with Ygritte

9) atonement with a father figure or entity with life or death power. - Jon tells his bastard story to Mance Raydar and Mance reciprocates. 

10) apotheosis. Greater understanding is achieved. - Jon realizes that the wildlings are just people like anyone else, understands their perspective.

11) the ultimate boon or reward. - Jon becomes Lord Commander of the Watch

12) the return, and in many cases a refusal to return to an ordinary world to bring the ultimate reward back to the masses. Jon wants to respond to the Pink Letter.

13) the magic flight. Sometimes the hero has to use magic to escape in order to bring the ultimate boon to the ordinary world. - Jon dead - or just a little bit dead - help from Ghost?

14) rescue from without. Sometimes the hero needs help from some friend or outsider to escape, especially if wounded or weakened. - Val or Melisandre resurrects Jon from the dead.

15) the crossing of the return threshold. The hero finds it difficult to return to ordinary. - TBD

16) master of two worlds. The hero achieves balance between material and spiritual. -  TBD

17) mastery leads to a freedom from the fear of death. Living in the moment without worrying about the future or the past. - TBD

 

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Lets see if we can insert Jon into these:

7) Meets Val (priestess/goddess) in Mance's tent made of white pelts and mounted with elk antlers; receives the horn of Joramun (a bit later)

 

[Melifeather]

Just now, LynnS said:

7) Meets Val in Mance's tent made of white pelts and mounted with elk antlers; receives the horn of Joramun (a bit later)

 

I was actually just going to post something similar, but was going to include Melisandre as well as Val.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

I was actually just going to post something similar, but was going to include Melisandre as well as Val.

Sure, they both fit the category of goddess or godswife.

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I was actually just going to post something similar, but was going to include Melisandre as well as Val.

Where do the direwolves fit in as supernatural aids or companions?

[Melifeather]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Where do the direwolves fit in as supernatural aids or companions?

Number 3 and 13. I would categorize them as "magic".

[Melifeather]

53 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Where do the direwolves fit in as supernatural aids or companions?

#3 - is Bran more so than Ghost. When Bran comes to Jon in his dream, he opens his third eye. I know this is a bone of contention with several heretics, but the dream starts out with Jon dreaming that he is Ghost, howling for his siblings, but after Bran touches his forehead, he sees the wildling camp through Ghost's eyes. So I'm revising my opinion to call the direwolves "companions", but warging and seeing through the third eye is "magic".