Heresy 231 Alienarea Strikes Again

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

In very broad terms, given the very explicit threats by Mel and the Red lot,  I actually think that this may turn out to be true. 

It might explain why there is a ward against dragons crossing the Wall.  Mel, certainly thinks the enemy is beyond the Wall and seems to know something about the WW's (made of ice and snow and cold).  She hasn't said a thing about Dany or the dragons but was pre-occupied with waking dragons from stone at Dragonstone.  Was she sent there by Benerro?

I still maintain that the great horn of Mance's is a dragon horn of some sort.  It has the same appearance as the Dragonbinder.  It's still at the Wall in the pit; I'm guessing unharmed.  I hope Sam finds the book:  Runes for Dummies and brings it back with him. 

I'm also curious about Tyrion learns, if he crosses paths with Moqorro again,.

Ultimately, I think Euron is coming for Bran as well.

 

 

[alienarea]

Just reread the Melisandre chapter. A wild thought - if Melisandre can glamour Mance as Rattleshirt, she can glamour Jon as Rattleshirt. And Mance as Jon?

Would it be possible that Jon went to Winterfell with the spearwives, and Mance stayed at the wall as Jon? A hint could be Ghost being locked up?

Thinking this a little further, Jon would have killed Ramsay and sent the Pink Letter himself - as a sign to Melisandre that Winterfell has been secured?

And Melisandre would sacrifice Mance (as Jon Snow) without doubt.

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, alienarea said:

And Melisandre would sacrifice Mance (as Jon Snow) without doubt.

No I think she sent the real Mance and has other designs for Jon Snow.  Here's something Frey Family Reunion said on the general forum that seems more likely to me.  

Martin has made a comparison between Jon and Beric Dondarion but I'm not sure the ressrrection method will be the same.  Mel is also a shadowbinder and I think she would want to control of Jon.  She would have her own LC. This would be more a version of Lady Stoneheart,   But she is very much an independent agent like Dondarion.  A Jon raised with some form of shadow binding would be an upgraded version of Robert Strong  (who is an upgraded version of Drogo).  

That's if this vision in the HoU actually applies to Jon and not someone identified by Quaithe.

The broken sword is a fascinating idea.  I'm not sure you can split the soul into it's dark and light halves but it's an interesting idea.  But FFR makes a compelling argument.  

This outcome for Jon could also be the vision that Bran saw in the heart of winter.

 

[Melifeather]

20 hours ago, LynnS said:

It might explain why there is a ward against dragons crossing the Wall.

Is it a ward specifically for dragons or is it simply to prevent magic from crossing?

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

Would it be possible that Jon went to Winterfell with the spearwives, and Mance stayed at the wall as Jon? A hint could be Ghost being locked up?

I doubt it. Jon is very much the Lord Commander when he's stabbed. The POV is his.

 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

No I think she sent the real Mance and has other designs for Jon Snow.  Here's something Frey Family Reunion said on the general forum that seems more likely to me.  

Martin has made a comparison between Jon and Beric Dondarion but I'm not sure the ressrrection method will be the same.  Mel is also a shadowbinder and I think she would want to control of Jon.  She would have her own LC. This would be more a version of Lady Stoneheart,   But she is very much an independent agent like Dondarion.  A Jon raised with some form of shadow binding would be an upgraded version of Robert Strong  (who is an upgraded version of Drogo).  

That's if this vision in the HoU actually applies to Jon and not someone identified by Quaithe.

The broken sword is a fascinating idea.  I'm not sure you can split the soul into it's dark and light halves but it's an interesting idea.  But FFR makes a compelling argument.  

This outcome for Jon could also be the vision that Bran saw in the heart of winter.

 

I tend to agree with those that think Jon is the Great Stone Beast. The smoking and fire imagery does not have to include Jon being Targaryen, because we've been informed that ice burns just as badly as fire. The "stone" part indicates that he was dead, and taking flight is referring to his resurrection. The smoking tower may turn out to be the ruins after a tower is burned though. The Wall is already infused with magic. Are the ice cells inside or under a tower? Perhaps the tower burns and Jon inadvertently rises from the dead and emerges from the flames? He did have that dream where he was encased in black ice, hinting at his future transformation.

[alienarea]

On 6/1/2020 at 5:18 PM, Melifeather said:

He did have that dream where he was encased in black ice, hinting at his future transformation.

And he had a red lightsaber (sword) in it. I took that as a nod to Star Wars / Darth Vader without deeper meaning.

[alienarea]

1 minute ago, alienarea said:

And he had a red lightsaber (sword) in it. I took that as a nod to Star Wars / Darth Vader without deeper meaning.

Thinking twice about it, Melisandre and the red priests look like the Royal Guards of the Emperor and the CotF like mutant Yodas.

The dragons are Imperial Star Destroyers and the Direwolves X-Wings?

[Melifeather]

18 hours ago, alienarea said:

And he had a red lightsaber (sword) in it. I took that as a nod to Star Wars / Darth Vader without deeper meaning.

Jon, I am your father...or alternately, I am your mother...

[Lady Dyanna]

On 6/2/2020 at 3:00 PM, alienarea said:

And he had a red lightsaber (sword) in it. I took that as a nod to Star Wars / Darth Vader without deeper meaning.

I actually started writing up a comparison between Darth Vader/Anikan and Jon Snow a couple years back. Researched it but only wrote the first part. There’s a surprising amount of parallels between them. I just found a bit of it. I’m going to post it next. 

[Lady Dyanna]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

Two small boys embark upon very different yet parallel journeys, that in time would lead each to his individual destiny. Upon first glance, it seems that their stories could not possibly be further apart, but with time and attention to detail, it becomes apparent that multiple parallels do, in fact, exist. Therefore, it becomes the purpose of this essay, to delve deeper into both of these characters and their respective journeys, to determine if they might be, in actuality, traveling similar pathways on their way to meet their fate.

Anakin Skywalker is born of unusual circumstances to Shmi Skywalker. She is the only parent that Anakin knows, and his life is shaped heavily by his relationship with her. He is a precocious child, showing a high level of intelligence and superb reflexes. He is able to build both a droid and a pod racer at a remarkably young age. He fixes mechanical items that his owner can only dream of repairing, and he is the youngest and only human pod racer with the reflexes needed to compete. Not only is he remarkably talented in this regard, but he remains mostly humble, (with a few reminders,) and shows a willingness to assist others when needed. He only meets the Jedi Qui-Gon Jinn and Queen Amidala when he offers them shelter from a sandstorm, as well as offering them assistance in repairing their ship. He can be remarkably stubborn when he believes he is correct, yet remains steadfastly loyal to those that have earned that loyalty. He goes toe to toe with his mother Shmi, to be able to help the Jedi in the only way available to him, placing himself in danger in order to compete in the pod races so that the others can get what they need. He wants to make a difference  

Jon Snow is born under unusual circumstances as the bastard son of the honorable Ned Stark. His mother is unknown. Ned is the only parent figure known to Jon and as such his life is heavily shaped by his relationship with Ned. It is speculated that Jon is advanced for his age, forcing Maester Lewin to note that bastards grow up faster than other children. He is smart and learns his lessons easily. It is noted that he is physically coordinated as well as he both rides well and excels over his brother Robb at sword play, even if Robb may be better with a lance. Jon is also humble and shows a willingness to help others and extreme dedication to his family, in particular, his little sister, Arya. He is noted to be stubborn as well. He has his own code of ethics and sticks to it. He shows a great desire to make a difference and longs to do something that will distinguish him. He does not want to be known as the bastard son of Eddard Stark, but wants others to believe that by his actions he is just as good as Ned's trueborn children.

 

[LynnS]

SSMs you may or may not have seen:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/8ec9cm/so_spake_martin_extended_some_rare_quotes_from/

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/951t6x/so_spake_martin_extended_rare_quotes_from_grrm/

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/c8p3os/spoilers_extended_so_spake_martin_extended_rarely/

 

[alienarea]

On 6/5/2020 at 1:33 PM, LynnS said:

SSMs you may or may not have seen:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/8ec9cm/so_spake_martin_extended_some_rare_quotes_from/

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/951t6x/so_spake_martin_extended_rare_quotes_from_grrm/

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/c8p3os/spoilers_extended_so_spake_martin_extended_rarely/

 

He has probably rewritten them all by now.

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, alienarea said:

He has probably rewritten them all by now.

There are some interesting things that I hadn't heard. Like Melisandre is very important character.  I mean to go through them and pull out some stuff.  Alas, I've been looking for annuals and planting the garden, among other home related things. I need a new fridge and freezer.  blah, blah blah…  but I still check in. 

[alienarea]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

There are some interesting things that I hadn't heard. Like Melisandre is very important character.  I mean to go through them and pull out some stuff.  Alas, I've been looking for annuals and planting the garden, among other home related things. I need a new fridge and freezer.  blah, blah blah…  but I still check in. 

We all have other things to do ... like GRRM.

Besided my regilar job I work on new songs and plan to have a new record out in September. Released a first single already.

https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=M2P1A7RFdPU&feature=share

I also started rereading ADwD on the mobile. 

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, alienarea said:

https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=M2P1A7RFdPU&feature=share

The sound on my pc is crap and my hearing is also crap.  What are the lyrics for City Never Sleeps?

[alienarea]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The sound on my pc is crap and my hearing is also crap.  What are the lyrics for City Never Sleeps?

Savage city never sleeps
Skyscraper canyons tall and deep
A suicidal takes a leap
His knowing mother starts to weep
City never sleeps
City never sleeps

Beautiful woman still alone
Nervously waiting by the phone
In her sleep she softly moans
Why won’t no one take me home
Beautiful woman still alone
Beautiful woman still alone

Another lonely man walks tough
With his heart destroyed by love
Don’t mistake him for a brave
He’s just one step from the grave
Heart destroyed by love
Heart destroyed by love

 

Originally wrotem them in 2004, but previous versions weren't fit for release (even worse singing ). The measure follows the one of Riders on the Storm by The Doors.

I have been to New York City for the first time in 1983. It was end of July and very hot, the dog days. My hotel was near Times Square, and because the map didn't show proper distances, I walked down Broadway all the way to the Staten Island Ferry. The walk took 3-4 hours, and I was soaked in sweat. I boarded the ferry to catch a close look at the Statue of Liberty, and when it returned to Manhattan the skies went black as a storm had formed because of the heat, and I saw lighting all around the skyline with the twin towers and it was incredible. Eighteen years later, the twin towers fell and I was very sad and shocked.

Now there is the Corona virus, and some of us will die because of it, and others will lose loved ones. But there will be a time after Corona, and those who survive will go out again and dance, and drink and live. And there will be young people taking their own lives for other reasons, and beautiful women will be alone, and men with broken hearts will be lonely. Keep on rocking, New York City.

[LynnS]

@Seams @sweetsunray

I am intrigued by your comments about chimeras:

Quote

Lord Beric may be a symbolic King Robert and Storm King: the original storm king was Durran Godsgrief. House Baratheon took the title when Orys Baratheon killed Argilac the Arrogant. Holding a title is significant, but GRRM may also give us clues that a House has other heirs who may have fallen from power but who carry some of the original magic or "blood" of an historical or legendary figure. I suspect that the resemblance between Dondarrion and Durrandon, as well as Lord Beric's lightning bolt sigil, are clues that he is also an heir (and symbolic representative) of the Storm King.

So Ned chooses to send a Storm King to battle the outlaws in the Riverlands and the Storm King is linked to Robert Baratheon as Lord Paramount of the Stormlands.

But I suspect that Lord Beric is also a symbolic Eddard: his betrothal to a Dayne and the fact that his kiss brings Catelyn back to life (as Lady Stoneheart) may be our best clues.

So Lord Beric is a chimera, comprised of parts of two men. (His name also includes the letters for both "Eddard" and "Rob," for what that's worth. ) The other character suspected of being a chimera is Tyrion, whose mismatched eyes may signal that both Tywin and King Aerys are his fathers. 

When Bloodraven tells Bran that it's his blood that a greenseer and also refers to the oak and acorn; I think he are talking the greenblood going back to Garth Greenhands whose throne was a living oak.  This seems to imply that Bran is the 1 in a thousand with this bloodline.  Being wed to the tree is basically grafting of the oak and the wierwood.  

Brynden Rivers is also a chimera, a Targ and Blackwood.  He is missing an eye, a reference to Odin another storm god. He is also represented as a tree:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

The wagons continued on their slow way south through frozen mud and blowing snow. A mile farther on, they came upon a second face, carved into a chestnut tree that grew beside an icy stream, where its eyes could watch the old plank bridge that spanned its flow. "Twice as much trouble," announced Dolorous Edd.

The chestnut was leafless and skeletal, but its bare brown limbs were not empty. On a low branch overhanging the stream a raven sat hunched, its feathers ruffled up against the cold. When it spied Jon it spread its wings and gave a scream. When he raised his fist and whistled, the big black bird came flapping down, crying, "Corn, corn, corn."

And earlier as the lightning blasted tree:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

On his way back, Jon swung wide of the column's line of march and took a shorter path through the thick of the wood. The sounds of man and horse diminished, swallowed up by the wet green wild, and soon enough he could hear only the steady wash of rain against leaf and tree and rock. It was midafternoon, yet the forest seemed as dark as dusk. Jon wove a path between rocks and puddles, past great oaks, grey-green sentinels, and black-barked ironwoods. In places the branches wove a canopy overhead and he was given a moment's respite from the drumming of the rain against his head. As he rode past a lightning-blasted chestnut tree overgrown with wild white roses, he heard something rustling in the underbrush. "Ghost," he called out. "Ghost, to me."

The wild roses may represent the wildlings or the white walkers with roses connected to Starks. I'm reminded of Patchface:  The crow, the crow.  Under the sea, the crows are white as snow.

Tyrion is represented by the drunken ash tree:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

The Lord Steward led the way. Jon rode a few yards back, Dolorous Edd Tollett at his side. Half a mile south of Castle Black, Edd urged his garron close to Jon's and said, "M'lord? Look up there. The big drunkard on the hill."

The drunkard was an ash tree, twisted sideways by centuries of wind. And now it had a face. A solemn mouth, a broken branch for a nose, two eyes carved deep into the trunk, gazing north up the kingsroad, toward the castle and the Wall.

The drunkard on the hill; or Hugor on the Hill as Tyrion becomes with his missing nose.  The seed of the ash tree is a spinneret and Tyrion is blasted and carried on the wind by some big bastard:
 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IX

But when he clambered up the ladder to the sterncastle and looked off from the stern, his smile faltered. Blue sky and blue sea here, but off west … I have never seen a sky that color. A thick band of clouds ran along the horizon. "A bar sinister," he said to Penny, pointing.

"What does that mean?" she asked.

"It means some big bastard is creeping up behind us."

The bar sinister is the mark used on sigils to denote bastadry and the big bastard could mean great bastard, perhaps a reference to Bloodraven. Or something we haven't seen yet. Tyrion will also be storm blasted and tossed by the wind.
 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IX

The last storm had been thrilling, intoxicating, a sudden squall that had left him feeling cleansed and refreshed. This one felt different right from the first. The captain sensed it too. He changed their course to north by northeast to try and get out of the storm's path.

It was a futile effort. This storm was too big. The seas around them grew rougher. The wind began to howl. The Stinky Steward rose and fell as waves smashed against her hull. Behind them lightning stabbed down from the sky, blinding purple bolts that danced across the sea in webs of light. Thunder followed. "The time has come to hide." Tyrion took Penny by the arm and led her belowdecks.

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

Just north of Mole's Town they came upon the third watcher, carved into the huge oak that marked the village perimeter, its deep eyes fixed upon the kingsroad. That is not a friendly face, Jon Snow reflected. The faces that the First Men and the children of the forest had carved into the weirwoods in eons past had stern or savage visages more oft than not, but the great oak looked especially angry, as if it were about to tear its roots from the earth and come roaring after them. Its wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it.

 In this trio of trees, Jon is also represented as the oak tree.  This is foreshadowing of Jon's assassination.  There is a symbolic lighting bolt located at Castle Black.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon VII

So Castle Black had a wall of sorts at last, a crescent-shaped barricade ten feet high made of stores; casks of nails and barrels of salt mutton, crates, bales of black broadcloth, stacked logs, sawn timbers, fire-hardened stakes, and sacks and sacks of grain. The crude rampart enclosed the two things most worth defending; the gate to the north, and the foot of the great wooden switchback stair that clawed and climbed its way up the face of the Wall like a drunken thunderbolt, supported by wooden beams as big as tree trunks driven deep into the ice.

If Jon is the offspring of Robert and Lyanna, 'clawing and climbing his way up the wall'; he can also claim the bloodline from the storm kings and going back to Garth Greenhand.  He would be Jon Snow-Storm.  A drunken lightning bolt would characterize Robert.

[sweetsunray]

@LynnS I like your identification of the carved faces of the trees at Mole's town - the drunkard tree and the berserker tree ;-)

Three watchers: the drunkard Tyrion looking in the direction of the castle (ash), the second skeletal watcher with a raven on its "shoulders" (chestnut) (Bran and/or Bloodraven) with references to "not letting the old gods go", and the great mighty oak (king of the trees) with its eyes fixed on the kingsroad uprooting itself in anger and coming after the NW. 

[LynnS]

40 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Three watchers: the drunkard Tyrion looking in the direction of the castle (ash), the second skeletal watcher with a raven on its "shoulders" (chestnut) (Bran and/or Bloodraven) with references to "not letting the old gods go", and the great mighty oak (king of the trees) with its eyes fixed on the kingsroad uprooting itself in anger and coming after the NW

There is another similar motif at Moat Cailin:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VIII

Just beyond, through the mists, she glimpsed the walls and towers of Moat Cailin … or what remained of them. Immense blocks of black basalt, each as large as a crofter's cottage, lay scattered and tumbled like a child's wooden blocks, half-sunk in the soft boggy soil. Nothing else remained of a curtain wall that had once stood as high as Winterfell's. The wooden keep was gone entirely, rotted away a thousand years past, with not so much as a timber to mark where it had stood. All that was left of the great stronghold of the First Men were three towers … three where there had once been twenty, if the taletellers could be believed.

The Gatehouse Tower looked sound enough, and even boasted a few feet of standing wall to either side of it. The Drunkard's Tower, off in the bog where the south and west walls had once met, leaned like a man about to spew a bellyful of wine into the gutter. And the tall, slender Children's Tower, where legend said the children of the forest had once called upon their nameless gods to send the hammer of the waters, had lost half its crown. It looked as if some great beast had taken a bite out of the crenellations along the tower top, and spit the rubble across the bog. All three towers were green with moss. A tree was growing out between the stones on the north side of the Gatehouse Tower, its gnarled limbs festooned with ropy white blankets of ghostskin.

"Gods have mercy," Ser Brynden exclaimed when he saw what lay before them. "This is Moat Cailin? It's no more than a—"

It's pretty clear that the children's tower is associated with the COTF and the Gatehouse Tower represents the Night Fort with it's tree festooned with ghost moss - the ghostly face of the Black Gate.  

What I'm not getting is the meaning of the Drunken Tower.  Given that Tyrion is the drunken ash and his behavior mirrors Garth Greenhand to some extent;  I'm thinking this related to Greehand or those carrying his bloodline.

The drunken god shows up once again:

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

She heard them now. "Sorry. You are sorry." Her lip was trembling, her cheeks were wet, her eyes were red-rimmed holes. "We left King's Landing that very night. My brother said it was for the best, before someone wondered if we'd had some part in the king's death and decided to torture us to find out. We went to Tyrosh first. My brother thought that would be far enough, but it wasn't. We knew a juggler there. For years and years he would juggle every day by the Fountain of the Drunken God. He was old, so his hands were not as deft as they had been, and sometimes he would drop his balls and chase them across the square, but the Tyroshi would laugh and throw him coins all the same. Then one morning we heard that his body had been found at the Temple of Trios. Trios has three heads, and there's a big statue of him beside the temple doors. The old man had been cut into three parts and pushed inside the threefold mouths of Trios. Only when the parts were sewn back together, his head was gone."

Associated with Trios, a tower with three turrets which harkens back to Moat Cailin: 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Ugly Little Girl

One time, the girl remembered, the Sailor's Wife had walked her rounds with her and told her tales of the city's stranger gods. "That is the house of the Great Shepherd. Three-headed Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do. Those are the Stones of the Silent God, and there the entrance to the Patternmaker's Maze. Only those who learn to walk it properly will ever find their way to wisdom, the priests of the Pattern say. Beyond it, by the canal, that's the temple of Aquan the Red Bull. Every thirteenth day, his priests slit the throat of a pure white calf, and offer bowls of blood to beggars."

 

It' feels like a giant puzzle with pieces scattered about the place.  Why is Tyrion associated with the drunken god? What does the drunken god represent.  How is it associated with the old chestnut (Bran/Bloodraven/the children's tower) and the oak (Jon and Castle Black or the Night Fort)?  It seems to represents a trinity of forces.  Is Tyrion the agent of the drunken god? 

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

There is another similar motif at Moat Cailin:

It's pretty clear that the children's tower is associated with the COTF and the Gatehouse Tower represents the Night Fort with it's tree festooned with ghost moss - the ghostly face of the Black Gate.  

What I'm not getting is the meaning of the Drunken Tower.  Given that Tyrion is the drunken ash and his behavior mirrors Garth Greenhand to some extent;  I'm thinking this related to Greehand or those carrying his bloodline.

The drunken god shows up once again:

Associated with Trios, a tower with three turrets which harkens back to Moat Cailin: 

It' feels like a giant puzzle with pieces scattered about the place.  Why is Tyrion associated with the drunken god? What does the drunken god represent.  How is it associated with the old chestnut (Bran/Bloodraven/the children's tower) and the oak (Jon and Castle Black or the Night Fort)?  It seems to represents a trinity of forces.  Is Tyrion the agent of the drunken god? 

It seems to suggest a trinity imo of Tyrion, Bran and Jon, ultimately, yes.

The drunken god is a reference to Bacchus/ Dyonisus. His main follower was Orpheus, but when he renounced Dyonisus not only was he shred to pieces, he lost his head. Notice that the "juggler" is cut into pieces, fed to the three heads, and when sown together has a missing head.

Dyonisus represents a potential type of subversive revolution for freedom. Wine is both something used to heal, but also as a means to get to an oracling madness state. The devouring makes sense for me for Tyrion, as he's referred to as a small bear and giant (bearlike), and the potential true original word for bear (bear is a euphemism, in order to live by the taboo to not name a bear by its true name) means the "destroyer/devourer". It's the revenge aspect of the bear. We know that one day, Tyrion will have two split minds - one where he kills his brother Jaime, but his other head weeps.

The middle one is sort of unclear. He's behind the tree. You may worship him via a tree, but you don't actually know him in person.

I'd associate the Gatehouse tower mostly with Jon because of the ghost references, as well as the "reborn" one.