Heresy 231 Alienarea Strikes Again

[corbon]

15 hours ago, alienarea said:

How would Ramsay know about the wildling babe (Val) and Mance's son from Dalla? He could only learn that from torturing the spearwives and or Mance.

Agreed. ts almost certain that he took one or more of them alive.

15 hours ago, alienarea said:

That is not unlikely, but still he would need to ask for this information.

Not agreed. Ramsey is more than capable of getting even hardened, tough people to sing. And sing and sing and sing.

15 hours ago, alienarea said:

And if one of the spearwives were to give it away unasked, would it be important enough for Ramsay to mention in the letter?

Its relevant, yes. It shows the letter writer knows stuff, has power, has reach. It makes the threats more real, more relevant. 

It also fits the psyche of Ramsey. He doesn't care what his opponent learns, what he reveals of himself or his knowledge or sources (so long as he's secure in his power), he's just throwing out the force of his desires heedlessly. Or worse, that he is aware, but its part of the bullying psychotic-ness. 

15 hours ago, alienarea said:

This is the strongest hint for me that the letter was not finished by Ramsay.

Don't see it at all. It all fits together exactly like Ramsey got Mance and/or one or more spearwives to sing. 

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

The drunk who can't hold his wine seems to imply a failed greenseer, one who does not have the "1 in a 1000" bloodline you mentioned, LynnS. Since this all revolves around Bran's need to fly it implies someone who became sick from their flight. Perhaps they had acrophobia. The bifurcated crown implies division: instead of a bridge, the land is divided in two by a wall or sea. The last, the ghost, implies death but more particularly the usual unfinished business that goes along with ghosthood. This is all symbolic of ritual rebirth as you pointed out so well with the Trios quote.

What an insightful analysis, Cowboy Dan! I'm really enjoying your interpretations and thoughts and find myself nodding in agreement as I'm reading. This particular passage of yours that I've quoted...with regards to Moat Cailin - it's spot on. Many readers suspect that Moat Cailin was the site of an earlier Wall that was breached, and symbolically the information is all there to back up that theory. The rebirth suggested is the new or existing - at least for now - Wall in the north. It may be Bran's job to keep the Wall from crumbling, but then again, maybe the fall is inevitable and his job is to lessen the impact?

6 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

In essence, using the flaming sword destructively brings about the potential destruction of humanity. From what I recall, LmL also made a post from his earlier days titled "A Burning Brand", in which he posits Bran will burn and he interpreted this in a negative fashion. If I'm misremembering this fact feel free to correct me. I think this was taking the correct symbols but misappropriating them, as Bran would symbolize the dragonglass itself. The flaming sword is centered on a cluster of symbols such as dragons, giants, and the weirwood itself, all interchangeable. In this way, Bran is symbolic of the Promethean giant at the heart of the weirwood or "under the sea". This connection between weirwood powers and the dragonglass is all but directly stated by Marwyn:

Quote

"Call it dragonglass." Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. "It burns but is not consumed."

"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"

You've presented an interesting question. Do greenseers actually need to physically eat? If dragonfire doesn't require feeding, then perhaps neither does a greenseer.

6 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

We know that one day, Tyrion will have two split minds - one where he kills his brother Jaime, but his other head weeps.

This is an aside and doesn't necessarily apply to your use of this quote, but Tyrion already split his mind when he killed his father. Love and hate are two sides of the same coin. Tyrion's immense feeling of complete and utter betrayal is what led him to kill his father. To feel that depth of hurt requires that he had loved his father.

6 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Speaking of drunken lightning bolts, we have a drunk and a lightning bolt tied to rebirth and righteous wrath as well as remembrance and forgetfulness in the form of everyone's favorite outlaws, Thoros of Myr and Beric Dondarrion. Arya is told where Beric, the symbolic lightning bolt, resides: "the lightning lord is everywhere and nowhere, skinny squirrel".

In my opinion, Beric Dondarrion is a parallel of both Bloodraven with the lightning symbolism intended to represent magic, as well as Duran Godsgrief and his battle with Elenei's parents the gods of water and air - the Storm gods.

It's great to see you here, Cowboy Dan! I hope you stick around!

[Brother Seamus]

On 7/8/2020 at 4:45 PM, corbon said:

To you. 
Obviously, it makes sense to Jon. And to GRRM
Perhaps you aren't looking at it from the right angle?

Well, I think thats a very poor premise.

I agree it wasn't a predictable decision. It was a hard decision, one he wrestled with (there's tension in him when he's talking about it with Tormund - opening and closing his fist, but no apparent anger). If Jon wasn't sure which way to go, its impossible to me that anyone else who might have written that letter could predict what he might do. None of the possible writers, least of all the most likely, Ramsey, know Jon well.

IMO there is no brilliant calculation or manipulation behind that letter, no attempt to draw out a specific response, other than to sow mental discord, confusion and terror in the recipients. Its just Ramsey being Ramsey. 

I meant from an objective perspective. if you think I've missed some cogent rationale for striking out for winterfell with, what, 3/4 of the force manning the wall, then lay it out. I am genuine when I say this is all a question, not a firm opinion. What have I missed?

But I'm glad to see you otherwise agree with me. I totally agree with your comments.This is just Ramsay being Ramsay. He's making a threat because he wants something and when he wants something he makes threats to get it.

 

[Brother Seamus]

On 7/9/2020 at 1:06 AM, alienarea said:

How would Ramsay know about the wildling babe (Val) and Mance's son from Dalla? He could only learn that from torturing the spearwives and or Mance.

That is not unlikely, but still he would need to ask for this information. And if one of the spearwives were to give it away unasked, would it be important enough for Ramsay to mention in the letter?

This is the strongest hint for me that the letter was not finished by Ramsay.

If in fact there has been a battle, and prisoners were taken and interrogated, he could also have learned about the babe and Dalla from any of the thousands of Stannis' soldiers who were at the wall.

 

[LynnS]

On 7/10/2020 at 3:58 AM, Cowboy Dan said:

Was reading this thread, catching up, and found a puzzle from a month ago worth bringing back up.

Hello Cowboy Dan!  It's been a while since we last talked.  The thing that is most puzzling to me about the trees and the towers is the drunken Ash/drunken Tower and the reference to the fountain of the drunken god.  I'm trying to understand it's meaning and relevance.  The three trees|:  the drunken ash, the old chestnut and the oak tree are personifications of characters: Tyrion,  Brynden or Bran and Jon. 

Likewise the three towers at Moat Cailin:  the drunken tower, the children's tower and the tower with the broken crown and ghost moss.  The last two towers can be connected to the cotf/greenseers and the Night Fort/Black Gate.  

But what is the significance of the Drunken Ash/Drunken Tower.  Well Tyrion certainly fits the description of the drunken ash on the hill with it's damaged nose and drunken ways.  He is a kind of Bacchus/Dionysian figure throughout the story.  Always debauched, always drunk but also incredibly wise when put to it.   This doesn't remind me so much of Bacchus as it does Silenus who was the tutor of Bacchus.

Quote

The original Silenus resembled a folkloric man of the forest, with the ears of a horse and sometimes also the tail and legs of a horse.[1] The later sileni were drunken followers of Dionysus, usually bald and fat with thick lips and squat noses, and having the legs of a human. Later still, the plural "sileni" went out of use and the only references were to one individual named Silenus, the teacher and faithful companion of the wine-god Dionysus.[2]

A notorious consumer of wine, he was usually drunk and had to be supported by satyrs or carried by a donkey. Silenus was described as the oldest, wisest and most drunken of the followers of Dionysus, and was said in Orphic hymns to be the young god's tutor. This puts him in a company of phallic or half-animal tutors of the gods, a group that includes Priapus, Hermaphroditus, Cedalion and Chiron, but also includes Pallas, the tutor of Athena.[3]

When intoxicated, Silenus was said to possess special knowledge and the power of prophecy. The Phrygian King Midas was eager to learn from Silenus and caught the old man by lacing a fountain with wine from which Silenus often drank.

As Silenus fell asleep, the king's servants seized and took him to their master. Silenus shared with the king a pessimistic philosophy, according to which "the best thing for a man is not to be born, and if already born, to die as soon as possible".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silenus

This description of Silenus seems very much in line with Tyrion's characters.  Although he drinks wine to excess so that he doesn't dream his terrible dreams.  It's only when he sobers up that the dreams return.

At first, I thought the Bacchus character was perhaps connected to Garth Greenhand but the Silenus character is much older.  So I'm guessing the Drunken God is connected to Garth as a tutor and Tyrion carries that bloodline.

Quote

Silenus

an aged woodland deity who was entrusted with the education of Dionysus.

NOUN

a woodland spirit usually depicted as a drunken old man with ears (and sometimes legs and tail) like those of a horse.

An aged woodland diety could be a greenseer or a green man. 

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

I believe I already answered that first part in my comment, Lynn.

Oh I don't have any expectations.  I'm more or less trying to get it clear in my own head.  That's all.

[alienarea]

I'm a bit disappointed that no one has picked up on my Über-crackpot claiming the pink letter had been send by the hooded man  of Winterfell.

I know there is some solid speculation that the hooded man is Theon, but in case he is not, maybe he sent the letter?

My starting point for this was that the pink letter asks for all the important women at the wall to come to Winterfell, and we have the planned She-wolves of Winterfell being cancelled. Who called the ladies and why - Rhamsay is not a valid answer

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

I'm a bit disappointed that no one has picked up on my Über-crackpot claiming the pink letter had been send by the hooded man  of Winterfell.

I know there is some solid speculation that the hooded man is Theon, but in case he is not, maybe he sent the letter?

My starting point for this was that the pink letter asks for all the important women at the wall to come to Winterfell, and we have the planned She-wolves of Winterfell being cancelled. Who called the ladies and why - Rhamsay is not a valid answer

The problem with Theon or a mystery hooded man writing the letter is the information about Mance, the spearwives, Val, and baby Aemon. How would they obtain this knowledge? While I can see why Theon would have sound motivations for wanting to lure Jon to come to Winterfell, he escaped before Mance was presumably discovered, so he wouldn't have been a witness to any torture to extract information. I am 99% sure the hooded man is Theon. I've already shared my analysis why, but in case anyone missed it, here's a link: LINK

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The problem with Theon or a mystery hooded man writing the letter is the information about Mance, the spearwives, Val, and baby Aemon. How would they obtain this knowledge? While I can see why Theon would have sound motivations for wanting to lure Jon to come to Winterfell, he escaped before Mance was presumably discovered, so he wouldn't have been a witness to any torture to extract information. I am 99% sure the hooded man is Theon. I've already shared my analysis why, but in case anyone missed it, here's a link: LINK

The hooded man could be Howland Reed who knows about Mance because he is a greenseer and knows everything anyway

Or, the hooded man is Jaqen H'ghar who also has a glass candle.

Or, Stonesnake.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

The hooded man could be Howland Reed who knows about Mance because he is a greenseer and knows everything anyway

Or, the hooded man is Jaqen H'ghar who also has a glass candle.

Or, Stonesnake.

I guess its possible Howland is the ghost in Winterfell, but if he's Jaqen H'ghar, then that would mean someone hired a hit. So far he's only killed low-level people. No lords or leaders of any kind, which doesn't make any sense. I don't see any motivation for Stonesnake. None of the wildlings know Mance is alive, so why would he go?

[alienarea]

26 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I guess its possible Howland is the ghost in Winterfell, but if he's Jaqen H'ghar, then that would mean someone hired a hit. So far he's only killed low-level people. No lords or leaders of any kind, which doesn't make any sense. I don't see any motivation for Stonesnake. None of the wildlings know Mance is alive, so why would he go?

Just going through options for fun. You have a valid point with Theon being the hooded man.

I always liked Stonesnake. So he carries out a last order from Benjen. He disappears and merges in with the wildlings. This way he learns about Mance and Dalla. When Thormund leads the wildlings through the wall, he's among them, but with beard or shaved head - he isn't recognized. He heads to Winterfell and sneaks in, because he's Stonesnake, and becomes the hooded man. Killing to protect himself. Of course, he recognizes the disguised Mance. He writes the letter to get Jon and the nightwatch to Winterfell because ...

[Lady Dyanna]

6 hours ago, alienarea said:

He writes the letter to get Jon and the nightwatch to Winterfell because ...

Well, playing along with the idea it would make logical sense if that were the case that there was some reason related to the defense of the realm from the Others that requires the people to be at Winterfell 

[alienarea]

7 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Well, playing along with the idea it would make logical sense if that were the case that there was some reason related to the defense of the realm from the Others that requires the people to be at Winterfell 

I am brainstorming something related to women. We have Val, she could be the Queen of the Wildlings. Selyse, if we count Stannis as the legitimate king, would be Queen of Westeros, and Melisandre a priestess of the Lord of Light, perhaps the highest one or only one in Westeros. And it should be related to Brans dreams and the pact. So maybe they have to sacrifice Jon Snow in the godswood to break the magic binding the wooddancers of the CotF into White Walkers? 

[Lady Dyanna]

I’m somewhat reluctant to go the route of Jon Snow being sacrificed. It seems to me that what might be needed is an END to the sacrifices. At least ones that are unnecessary and imposed upon someone. Just seems that there’s a bit TOO MUCH sacrifice going on in Westeros. 
 

I do think that the women are an interesting idea to look into. I really do think there is more to Val than meets the eye. I just wonder if it’s so much as a Queen or more in the role of a priestess. I suspect that there are many traditions that have been handed down through generations of Wildings that haven’t necessarily made it through the wall. (See Craster and the sacrifice of his boys. Or the burnt bodies the NW found in the tree.) Then we have all that craziness at Hardhome when all the Wildings did try to ban together. It’s enough to make me wonder... Are the wildings placed there as fodder and sacrifice? Or are they there to actually be a barrier to the creation and invasion of MORE Others. 
 

ETA. I almost feel like Val and Mel are somehow opposing forces. Not sure about Selyse. As a Florent she is related to the Gardener Kings of past. But I think that maybe she’s just a nut with her main purpose to be to Highlight Shireen and her tragic life thus far. I put more stock in Patchface being more integral to the story. But these are just gut instinct and quick thoughts. 

[alienarea]

17 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I’m somewhat reluctant to go the route of Jon Snow being sacrificed. It seems to me that what might be needed is an END to the sacrifices. At least ones that are unnecessary and imposed upon someone. Just seems that there’s a bit TOO MUCH sacrifice going on in Westeros. 
 

I do think that the women are an interesting idea to look into. I really do think there is more to Val than meets the eye. I just wonder if it’s so much as a Queen or more in the role of a priestess. I suspect that there are many traditions that have been handed down through generations of Wildings that haven’t necessarily made it through the wall. (See Craster and the sacrifice of his boys. Or the burnt bodies the NW found in the tree.) Then we have all that craziness at Hardhome when all the Wildings did try to ban together. It’s enough to make me wonder... Are the wildings placed there as fodder and sacrifice? Or are they there to actually be a barrier to the creation and invasion of MORE Others. 
 

ETA. I almost feel like Val and Mel are somehow opposing forces. Not sure about Selyse. As a Florent she is related to the Gardener Kings of past. But I think that maybe she’s just a nut with her main purpose to be to Highlight Shireen and her tragic life thus far. I put more stock in Patchface being more integral to the story. But these are just gut instinct and quick thoughts. 

I agree with Val being more of a priestess than a queen.

Maybe Val and Mel need to work together to bring back Jon?

[Lady Dyanna]

4 hours ago, alienarea said:

Maybe Val and Mel need to work together to bring back Jon?

I’m not sure that Jon IS dead. All we know for sure is that he was attacked and seems to have lost consciousness. We were given Bran as an example way back in GoT. Summer’s presence was able to give him the extra strength to survive an injury that should have been fatal. And IIRC there was a fair amount of notice given to the idea that Jon has locked up Ghost. I think we still need to wait and see how the scene plays out. I’d imagine that it would make for bad tv to have one of ur protagonists in a coma for a whole season. Especially when played by Kit Harrington. 

[Lady Dyanna]

Completely and totally unrelated.... Has Heresy ever discussed the idea that Winterfell is actually built upon a semi-inactive volcano? It seems we should have. But I can’t remember it. 

[alienarea]

20 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Completely and totally unrelated.... Has Heresy ever discussed the idea that Winterfell is actually built upon a semi-inactive volcano? It seems we should have. But I can’t remember it. 

Maybe. I cannot remember as well.

Is a semi-inactive volcano the same as a semi-active volcano?

[Melifeather]

On 7/16/2020 at 6:51 AM, alienarea said:

I am brainstorming something related to women. We have Val, she could be the Queen of the Wildlings. Selyse, if we count Stannis as the legitimate king, would be Queen of Westeros, and Melisandre a priestess of the Lord of Light, perhaps the highest one or only one in Westeros. And it should be related to Brans dreams and the pact. So maybe they have to sacrifice Jon Snow in the godswood to break the magic binding the wooddancers of the CotF into White Walkers? 

I would like to believe that GRRM is actually making a statement about women and how they were treated in medieval times. Their maidenheads were bought and sold like commodities and used to bind alliances. Some readers criticize how the female characters are victimized and objectified in the series, but I suspect that GRRM may be deliberately highlighting this inequity with the intention of later restoring women to a position of equality at the end of the story - and returning the seasons to normal in the process. The erratic seasons may be linked to man's domination over women. The earliest story that seems to hint at this is of Duran Godsgrief and his marriage to Elenei.

I've brought up the similarity of greenseers to meditation in an earlier thread. The whole business with learning how to open the third eye, seeing through the trees, and being connected to a godhead is very reminiscent of a meditation practice. While many religions practice meditation in some form, there are some that also believe the feminine divine or goddess has been pushed out of the mainstream and that religion today is unbalanced with its emphasis on a male divine or god. With ASOIAF's theme of two sides of the same coin, it only seems logical to me that GRRM may be illustrating a world that has discarded the female divine, and how that exemption has left the world unbalanced in its wake.

The current story has demonstrated that historic events have been occurring in reverse with very different outcomes. In the beginning the First Men came, then the religious Andals, then the Rhoynar alliance with Dorne, and lastly the Targaryens. The reverse is what we've already seen. Rhaegar died at the Trident and Aerys was slain, effectively ending the reign of the Targaryens. Arianne of Dorne is on her way to offer an alliance with Aegon who arrived from the Rhoynar. Cersei Lannister of Andal bloodline is currently battling the fanatical Faith of the Seven for control over the throne, and Jon Snow is set to be resurrected as the Nights King. If history is undoing itself in reverse, we should be expecting a new King in the North. Well, Robb Stark was once the King in the North, but it didn't last but a few months, so I'm wondering if there will be another northern leader only this time a Queen in the North? And after that, a rightful return of the land to, what? The Children think they will die out before the Starks do, and the mummer's show made Sansa a queen, so maybe that is one detail that D&D have right?

[Lady Dyanna]

10 hours ago, alienarea said:

Is a semi-inactive volcano the same as a semi-active volcano?

Possibly. I’m thinking it might be similar to the difference between partly cloudy and partly sunny.