Heresy 231 Alienarea Strikes Again

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Yes there are sibling Starks, but none of them are currently living at Winterfell. Robb Stark was defeated even while Bran still held Winterfell, and likewise Ned was beheaded while Robb held Winterfell. They were keeping a Stark in Winterfell and yet they both died. Theon took Winterfell away from Bran who in turn escaped from Winterfell and lived. Arya escaped from capture while Sansa only escaped the Lannisters. She's yet to escape from LIttlefinger. Rickon escaped with Osha. Winterfell is notably absent of Starks other than dead ones, but the family yet lives. Are you suggesting that the Old Gods have been trying to rid Winterfell of Starks?

Quite the reverse. I'm suggesting that the Starks are tied to Winterfell and that straying far from it ends in tears

[alienarea]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Quite the reverse. I'm suggesting that the Starks are tied to Winterfell and that straying far from it ends in tears

One of the basic questions is whether it is

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell because winter is coming"

vs

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell or winter is coming" .

Because this thread was originally about the pink letter please allow me to loop back with this thought:

Maybe we are looking at who wrote the pink letter from the wrong perspective? 

If the purpose of the pink letter was not to provoke Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Night Watch, to come to and attack Winterfell, but to get the last known male Stark, who by chance happens to be a bastard named Jon Snow, to come to Winterfell to end the increasing snow storm originating from there (courtesy of redriver)? And the one to know this would be someone who read a book and burned it afterwards. Someone who could have the information after torturing Mance and or some spearwives. Here's looking at you, Roose.

 

 

[Frey family reunion]

40 minutes ago, alienarea said:

If the purpose of the pink letter was not to provoke Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Night Watch, to come to and attack Winterfell, but to get the last known male Stark, who by chance happens to be a bastard named Jon Snow, to come to Winterfell to end the increasing snow storm originating from there (courtesy of redriver)? And the one to know this would be someone who read a book and burned it afterwards. Someone who could have the information after torturing Mance and or some spearwives. Here's looking at you, Roose.

Maybe, that's an interesting perspective. 

Personally, I've gone back and forth between Stannis and Mance as the author.  But one thing in the Pink Letter kind of caught my eye, which may sway me more towards the Mance camp.

Quote

The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

Now granted all of Winterfell is probably pretty cold right now, but if Mance's interest in the crypts, coupled with the tale of Bael the Bard is any indication than Mance's current "cage" may be his hiding place, the crypts.  And the crypts are always cold:

Quote

"Likely they were all too shy to come out," Ned jested.  He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth.  "Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Quote

"The Others take your mild snows," Robert swore.  "What will this place be like in winter?  I shudder to think."

Quote

He led the way between the pillars and Robert followed wordlessly, shivering in the subterranean chill.  It was always cold down here.

 

[asongofheresy]

There seems to be talk of Starks claiming the wrong direwolf in this thread and I completely agree! Imagine Jon Snow having a black dire wolf since he wears all black and his wolf won't attract any attention during the night, and Bran having a white direwolf like the weirwood he wed, and his mentor Bloodraven. Robb and Rickon will have normal grey direwolves then. 

Pink Letter author could be Mance or Stannis, maybe Ramsay did write a letter but the contents were changed, I sometimes wonder if Mance and Stannis play Jon like fiddle, is it possible Northern and Riverland Lords used Robb in their plots and egged him on independence. 

[Black Crow]

16 hours ago, alienarea said:

And the one to know this would be someone who read a book and burned it afterwards... Here's looking at you, Roose.

Just off on a slight tangent, we don't know what was in the book or why Roose burned it.

Only Roose can tell us, but he can't do that if he's dead, as some theories propose.

Ergo... 

[Melifeather]

19 hours ago, alienarea said:

One of the basic questions is whether it is

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell because winter is coming"

vs

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell or winter is coming" .

Because this thread was originally about the pink letter please allow me to loop back with this thought:

Maybe we are looking at who wrote the pink letter from the wrong perspective? 

If the purpose of the pink letter was not to provoke Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Night Watch, to come to and attack Winterfell, but to get the last known male Stark, who by chance happens to be a bastard named Jon Snow, to come to Winterfell to end the increasing snow storm originating from there (courtesy of redriver)? And the one to know this would be someone who read a book and burned it afterwards. Someone who could have the information after torturing Mance and or some spearwives. Here's looking at you, Roose.

 

 

That is an interesting angle that I had not considered.

[Melifeather]

On 7/30/2020 at 5:15 AM, Black Crow said:

Quite the reverse. I'm suggesting that the Starks are tied to Winterfell and that straying far from it ends in tears

So far, the Starks that have escaped Winterfell and live under a disguise, still live. Do you suppose the old gods don't recognize Starks in disguise?

[Black Crow]

Well lets look at it...

Lord Eddard, his father, elder brother and his sister all died far from home

His younger brother went to the Wall and is currently amissing

His wife and mother of his children did far from home although she's trout and so probably doesn't count

The children of Winterfell were sent direwolves by the Old Gods

Robb is dead, far from home

Sansa lost her dog but nevertheless has been reclaimed through the snowflake communion

Bran has gone into the wood

Like Benjen Jon went to the Wall and now who knows - I still favour his being taken by the Ice

Arya, taken by the Stranger but intending to return

Only Rickon is uncertain - but otherwise no-ne has escaped

[Lady Dyanna]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

So far, the Starks that have escaped Winterfell and live under a disguise, still live. Do you suppose the old gods don't recognize Starks in disguise?

Nah. It just takes them a bit longer that way. 

[Lady Dyanna]

7 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

There seems to be talk of Starks claiming the wrong direwolf in this thread and I completely agree! Imagine Jon Snow having a black dire wolf since he wears all black and his wolf won't attract any attention during the night, and Bran having a white direwolf like the weirwood he wed, and his mentor Bloodraven. Robb and Rickon will have normal grey direwolves then. 

Or could it be that Rickon, as the youngest, just like Benjen, was actually the one meant for the wall? Ive also considered that Rickon was the one meant for the trees and the dark. He seems to have a fairly strong bond with his wolf. But that might just be his circumstances. It’s hard to argue that Ghost wasn’t meant for Jon when Jon was the only one to be able to hear a mute wolf. 

[Lady Dyanna]

23 hours ago, alienarea said:

Maybe we are looking at who wrote the pink letter from the wrong perspective? 

If the purpose of the pink letter was not to provoke Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Night Watch, to come to and attack Winterfell, but to get the last known male Stark, who by chance happens to be a bastard named Jon Snow, to come to Winterfell to end the increasing snow storm originating from there (courtesy of redriver)? And the one to know this would be someone who read a book and burned it afterwards. Someone who could have the information after torturing Mance and or some spearwives. Here's looking at you, Roose.

Yeah. Everyone always skips over Roose. And I never seem to get around to rereading the last two books. I know that Ramsey took care of dear old dad in our alternate version. I keep thinking that the same was implied in Bookworld too, or am I combining the two again?  It does seem that the burnt book needs to be important for some reason. Otherwise why have Arya notice it at all? 

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Yeah. Everyone always skips over Roose. And I never seem to get around to rereading the last two books. I know that Ramsey took care of dear old dad in our alternate version. I keep thinking that the same was implied in Bookworld too, or am I combining the two again?  It does seem that the burnt book needs to be important for some reason. Otherwise why have Arya notice it at all? 

If we are meant to think that Ramsay did away with dear old dad, I completely missed it.

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Yeah. Everyone always skips over Roose. And I never seem to get around to rereading the last two books. I know that Ramsey took care of dear old dad in our alternate version. I keep thinking that the same was implied in Bookworld too, or am I combining the two again?  It does seem that the burnt book needs to be important for some reason. Otherwise why have Arya notice it at all? 

 

7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

If we are meant to think that Ramsay did away with dear old dad, I completely missed it.

I checked my ebook. The last chapter featuring both Boltons is 53 Theon from ADwD. They are in the hall, there is the fight between Manderlys and Freys, and they order them to go after Stannis. In the end of the chapter, Theon and Jeyne Poole (fArya) escape from Winterfell. Or did I miss something?

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Or did I miss something?

Probably just my faulty memory in trying to keep book and show straight. Thanks for looking. 

[asongofheresy]

15 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Or could it be that Rickon, as the youngest, just like Benjen, was actually the one meant for the wall? Ive also considered that Rickon was the one meant for the trees and the dark. He seems to have a fairly strong bond with his wolf. But that might just be his circumstances. It’s hard to argue that Ghost wasn’t meant for Jon when Jon was the only one to be able to hear a mute wolf. 

Or Bran was supposed to know the wind was voice of Old Gods/Ghost calling to him? I know Jon and Ghost seems fated then Jon being sent to Wall becomes a problem. 

[Lady Dyanna]

16 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Jon being sent to Wall becomes a problem. 

Maybe. But as Jon told Arya... Sometimes different roads can lead to the same castle. 

[Black Crow]

I think that the direwolves went to the right children. Or rather I think its wrong to go looking for mismatches, because all of them reflect and foreshadow their children.

For a start, obviously, as Jon pointed out at the very beginning, they correspond to the genders of the children.

Rob and Greywind are noble, mighty warriors - and dead

Sansa has Lady, who reflects her - not influences her - and are both cut off from their family, as a result of Sansa's choices

Arya and Mymeria are both cut off too, but developing into dangerous characters

Rickon is damaged and Shaggydog is just Rickon with four paws

Based simply on Ghost's white fur and red eyes, its possible to argue that his resemblance to a weirwood means that Bran rather than Jon should have had him, but there's too much else linking him to Jon. Conversely there was Bran's waking from his crow dream to name his dog Summer and those eyes as gold as the sun. 

Turning back to Jon, apart from the logic if his adopting that particular pup, he named it Ghost and now he, having been killed, will indeed be a ghost of sorts, and if Bran's crow dream is true, a very cold one

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think that the direwolves went to the right children. Or rather I think its wrong to go looking for mismatches, because all of them reflect and foreshadow their children.

For a start, obviously, as Jon pointed out at the very beginning, they correspond to the genders of the children.

Rob and Greywind are noble, mighty warriors - and dead

Sansa has Lady, who reflects her - not influences her - and are both cut off from their family, as a result of Sansa's choices

Arya and Mymeria are both cut off too, but developing into dangerous characters

Rickon is damaged and Shaggydog is just Rickon with four paws

Based simply on Ghost's white fur and red eyes, its possible to argue that his resemblance to a weirwood means that Bran rather than Jon should have had him, but there's too much else linking him to Jon. Conversely there was Bran's waking from his crow dream to name his dog Summer and those eyes as gold as the sun. 

Turning back to Jon, apart from the logic if his adopting that particular pup, he named it Ghost and now he, having been killed, will indeed be a ghost of sorts, and if Bran's crow dream is true, a very cold one

Following your logic 

- Robb becomes a grey wind 

- Sansa becomes a Lady

- Bran becomes summer

- Arya becomes Nymeria (a warrior queen) 

- Rickon becomes a shaggydog (i.e. his story is unimportant / a distraction)

- Jon becomes a ghost 

Pretty close to what the mummers came up with.

[Melifeather]

15 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Based simply on Ghost's white fur and red eyes, its possible to argue that his resemblance to a weirwood means that Bran rather than Jon should have had him, but there's too much else linking him to Jon. Conversely there was Bran's waking from his crow dream to name his dog Summer and those eyes as gold as the sun. 

Turning back to Jon, apart from the logic if his adopting that particular pup, he named it Ghost and now he, having been killed, will indeed be a ghost of sorts, and if Bran's crow dream is true, a very cold one

This was exactly what I was going to say. Jon’s wolf’s name foreshadows Jon’s fate: a white ghost with red eyes that cannot talk. 

[Melifeather]

On 7/31/2020 at 11:52 AM, Black Crow said:

Well lets look at it...

Lord Eddard, his father, elder brother and his sister all died far from home

His younger brother went to the Wall and is currently amissing

His wife and mother of his children did far from home although she's trout and so probably doesn't count

The children of Winterfell were sent direwolves by the Old Gods

Robb is dead, far from home

Sansa lost her dog but nevertheless has been reclaimed through the snowflake communion

Bran has gone into the wood

Like Benjen Jon went to the Wall and now who knows - I still favour his being taken by the Ice

Arya, taken by the Stranger but intending to return

Only Rickon is uncertain - but otherwise no-ne has escaped

Yes, these things are facts, but even when Ned (and Robb after him) left a spare Stark in Winterfell, they still perished. Both of them made political mistakes that can be directly linked to their deaths. It's plain to me that never venturing far from Winterfell may be an easy way to remain honorable, but it left the Starks inexperienced and naive when it came to navigating politics and playing the "game of thrones".