Heresy 231 Alienarea Strikes Again

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Correct me if I'm wrong.  Ned had a yelling match with Robert before going to the TOJ. What do you think that was about? When Ned returns from Starfall, then they talk about Lyanna and grieve together, but there is no mention of Jon or Ned didn't bring Jon with him back to KL.  So what happened to Jon?  Was he sent ahead with his wetnurse by ship to the Quiet Isle where Ned met them.  Also retrieving Lyanna's bones before sending them onto Winterfell; while he returned Lady Dustin's horse.  Doesn't Catelyn say they were already at Winterfell when she arrived and Ned arrived later?  I don't remember.

This is the popular accepted chain of events, which I believe is all "bait" to encourage the reader to come to an incorrect conclusion. But  yes, Ned and Robert had an argument over the bloody and flag wrapped bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon. Ned said something to the effect that the main reason they went to war was to prevent the deaths of children, and Robert said he didn't see children, only dragon spawn. Then sometime later they reconcile over their shared grief for Lyanna. IMO this does not confirm that Lyanna died after the argument, only that they reconciled while talking about her. Catelyn said that Jon was already living at Winterfell when she arrived, and I believe Ned was with her - that he picked her up on his way back from Starfall. Of course a lot of people don't like that theory, because then that would mean that Jon was at Winterfell before Ned went to Starfall.

[alienarea]

11 hours ago, Melifeather said:

This is the popular accepted chain of events, which I believe is all "bait" to encourage the reader to come to an incorrect conclusion. But  yes, Ned and Robert had an argument over the bloody and flag wrapped bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon. Ned said something to the effect that the main reason they went to war was to prevent the deaths of children, and Robert said he didn't see children, only dragon spawn. Then sometime later they reconcile over their shared grief for Lyanna. IMO this does not confirm that Lyanna died after the argument, only that they reconciled while talking about her. Catelyn said that Jon was already living at Winterfell when she arrived, and I believe Ned was with her - that he picked her up on his way back from Starfall. Of course a lot of people don't like that theory, because then that would mean that Jon was at Winterfell before Ned went to Starfall.

I don't know why, but this makes me want to start an Ashara is Lady Dustin crackpot

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, Melifeather said:

This is the popular accepted chain of events, which I believe is all "bait" to encourage the reader to come to an incorrect conclusion. But  yes, Ned and Robert had an argument over the bloody and flag wrapped bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon. Ned said something to the effect that the main reason they went to war was to prevent the deaths of children, and Robert said he didn't see children, only dragon spawn. Then sometime later they reconcile over their shared grief for Lyanna. IMO this does not confirm that Lyanna died after the argument, only that they reconciled while talking about her. Catelyn said that Jon was already living at Winterfell when she arrived, and I believe Ned was with her - that he picked her up on his way back from Starfall. Of course a lot of people don't like that theory, because then that would mean that Jon was at Winterfell before Ned went to Starfall.

Edric Dayne says that he and Jon have the same wet nurse, although they are 4 years apart in age.  Infants are weaned at about 6 months?  So I'm guessing that Wylla did not travel with Jon to Winterfell especially if Ned put out the story that Wylla was Jon' mother.  I can't see Catelyn tolerating that arrangement at Winterfell. Lady Dustin only says that Ned returned the horse and he had Lyanna's remains, nothing about Jon.  Then he collects Catelyn and Rob, nothing about Jon.  Jon is already at Winterfell.  If Jon was at Starfall when Ned returned Dawn; then he must have sent Jon and Howland? to Winterfell by ship to White Harbor? And then on to Winterfell in order for Jon to arrive first.  

 So if Ned returns with Lyanna's bones, then I'm assuming the Silent Sisters are involved and the mysterious "they" from Lyanna's death bed scene are the Silent Sisters come for the body.  So where does this take place?  Not at the ToJ.  It must be Starfall or another place where the Silent Sisters are present, in order to boil the flesh from the bones.

 

[Frey family reunion]

20 hours ago, LynnS said:

If Robert suspects even a little bit that he's the father; he's going to give a damn about Jon since he is still in love with Lyanna.  If Jon even looks a little bit like Lyanna he is going to question Ned about it in a round about way.  He may just accept after all these years that Ned is taking care of his bastard and this is what Lyanna wanted.

I'd buy into this a bit more, if the author gave us something to go on.  Perhaps Robert asking Ned to see Jon, or invite Jon hunting, or do something where he could have some type of contact with Jon.  But we don't have any evidence to show that Robert had any interest in the boy whatsoever.

It's my same issue that I have with Ned being concerned about hiding Jon from Robert.  There is nothing in the text to indicate that Ned was concerned about Robert's surprise visit to Winterfell.  Indeed the opposite, it put a smile on the face of the normally somber Ned.   Nor do we have any evidence that Ned tried to keep Jon away from Robert during Robert's visit.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'd buy into this a bit more, if the author gave us something to go on.  Perhaps Robert asking Ned to see Jon, or invite Jon hunting, or do something where he could have some type of contact with Jon.  But we don't have any evidence to show that Robert had any interest in the boy whatsoever.

It's my same issue that I have with Ned being concerned about hiding Jon from Robert.  There is nothing in the text to indicate that Ned was concerned about Robert's surprise visit to Winterfell.  Indeed the opposite, it put a smile on the face of the normally somber Ned.   Nor do we have any evidence that Ned tried to keep Jon away from Robert during Robert's visit.

Surely, he sees Jon at the feast and in the lineup even though Jon isn't out front.  It's not like Robert can give Jon any attention considering how Cersei would take it. She's already murdered some of Robert's bastards. Indeed Cersei feels it's her duty to murder Jon, since Catelyn won't do it. That in itself is strange.   As far as Ned is concerned Robert buys the Wylla story and he doesn't get prickly about it until Robert brings up Ned's bastard and his mother. So Robert does have some interest in Jon.

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Surely, he sees Jon at the feast and in the lineup even though Jon isn't out front.  It's not like Robert can give Jon any attention considering how Cersei would take it. Indeed Cersei feels it's her duty to murder Jon, since Catelyn won't do it. That in itself is strange.   As far as Ned is concerned Robert buys the Wylla story and he doesn't get prickly about it until Robert brings up Ned's bastard and his mother. So Robert does have some interest in Jon.

The problem is, we are left to assume.  For the reasons stated above, I'm not compelled by the conversation between Robert and Ned, because it can just as easily be interpreted as Robert trying to knock Ned off his high horse a bit.  Basically, "Come on Ned remind me who that woman was that made you dishonor yourself."

We don't even really know if Robert noticed Jon at the Wedding Feast, or paid him any mind at all.  The only character that specifically mentions seeing Jon at the wedding feast, and taking note of the boy is Cersei.

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The problem is, we are left to assume.  For the reasons stated above, I'm not compelled by the conversation between Robert and Ned, because it can just as easily be interpreted as Robert trying to knock Ned off his high horse a bit.  Basically, "Come on Ned remind me who that woman was that made you dishonor yourself."

We don't even really know if Robert noticed Jon at the Wedding Feast, or paid him any mind at all.  The only character that specifically mentions seeing Jon at the wedding feast, and taking note of the boy is Cersei.

I agree,  It's two different frames and I'm being very subjective or intuitive.  LOL

[Black Crow]

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The problem is, we are left to assume.  For the reasons stated above, I'm not compelled by the conversation between Robert and Ned, because it can just as easily be interpreted as Robert trying to knock Ned off his high horse a bit.  Basically, "Come on Ned remind me who that woman was that made you dishonor yourself."

We don't even really know if Robert noticed Jon at the Wedding Feast, or paid him any mind at all.  The only character that specifically mentions seeing Jon at the wedding feast, and taking note of the boy is Cersei.

I agree. its really a matter of how you interpret "interest". Bob clearly noticed him [though who pointed him out?] and remarked on him, but there's no suggestion then or afterwards that the interest went beyond casual prurience.

That's not to say that Lord Eddard doesn't have a guilty conscience

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Bob clearly noticed him [though who pointed him out?] and remarked on him, but there's no suggestion then or afterwards that the interest went beyond casual prurience.

Wasn't there a bit of a kerfuffle before Jon left the Hall.  Some drunken behavior calling attention to himself.  That is probably when he was noticed.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Wasn't there a bit of a kerfuffle before Jon left the Hall.  Some drunken behavior calling attention to himself.  That is probably when he was noticed.

Jon walked out, and later had a conversation with Tyrion. Whether anyone at the high table noticed anything out of the ordinary doesn't appear, but even if he was noticed, who identified him to the Royal party? 

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Jon walked out, and later had a conversation with Tyrion. Whether anyone at the high table noticed anything out of the ordinary doesn't appear, but even if he was noticed, who identified him to the Royal party? 

Would anyone notice Jon's direwolf?

[LynnS]

This is interesting.  Who has GRRM cast as Frodo, the one whose long journey ends up destroying the one ring but is forever damaged by carrying the burden.  I'd go with Jon simply because of Samwell.
 

Quote

The Ending 2003 Aug

Someone asked GRRM not to kill off Tyrion, but GRRM said he makes no promises. Every character's life is in mortal danger on every page. Then he added: "And no man is more accursed than the kinslayer" with a devilish grin.Someone also asked if there would be a happy ending to the series. GRRM said it would be bittersweet. GRRM says the tone of the ending of ASOIAF will be very similar to that of LOTR. His words were: "In LOTR, there was some happiness, but not for Frodo." He said that by reading the endings of some of his other books, you can get an idea of what the tone of the ending of ASOIAF will be like. But basically he emphasized that he's aiming for the same tone as the LOTR ending -- not totally bleak, but certainly not a fairy tale ending either.

I'd also tie it to the story of the Dark Angel:
 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Arya II

"Death is not the worst thing," the kindly man replied. "It is His gift to us, an end to want and pain. On the day that we are born the Many-Faced God sends each of us a dark angel to walk through life beside us. When our sins and our sufferings grow too great to be borne, the angel takes us by the hand to lead us to the nightlands, where the stars burn ever bright. Those who come to drink from the black cup are looking for their angels. If they are afraid, the candles soothe them. When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?"

 I think this is setting Arya up to give Jon the gift of Mercy with the weapon he gave her.  And this will be too much for her to bare:

I think this is foreshadowing that Arya will not survive;
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya I

Jon watched them leave, and Arya watched Jon. His face had grown as still as the pool at the heart of the godswood. Finally he climbed down off the window. "The show is done," he said. He bent to scratch Ghost behind the ears. The white wolf rose and rubbed against him. "You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

 Bran and Hodor could also make a parallel to Frodo and Samwise.  Hodor may also be a dark angel:
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

In his dream he was climbing again, pulling himself up an ancient windowless tower, his fingers forcing themselves between blackened stones, his feet scrabbling for purchase. Higher and higher he climbed, through the clouds and into the night sky, and still the tower rose before him. When he paused to look down, his head swam dizzily and he felt his fingers slipping. Bran cried out and clung for dear life. The earth was a thousand miles beneath him and he could not fly. He could not fly. He waited until his heart had stopped pounding, until he could breathe, and he began to climb again. There was no way to go but up. Far above him, outlined against a vast pale moon, he thought he could see the shapes of gargoyles. His arms were sore and aching, but he dared not rest. He forced himself to climb faster. The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque. Bran could hear them whispering to each other in soft stone voices terrible to hear. He must not listen, he told himself, he must not hear, so long as he did not hear them he was safe. But when the gargoyles pulled themselves loose from the stone and padded down the side of the tower to where Bran clung, he knew he was not safe after all. "I didn't hear," he wept as they came closer and closer, "I didn't, I didn't."

He woke gasping, lost in darkness, and saw a vast shadow looming over him. "I didn't hear," he whispered, trembling in fear, but then the shadow said "Hodor," and lit the candle by the bedside, and Bran sighed with relief.

Hodor washed the sweat from him with a warm, damp cloth and dressed him with deft and gentle hands. When it was time, he carried him down to the Great Hall, where a long trestle table had been set up near the fire. The lord's seat at the head of the table had been left empty, but Robb sat to the right of it, with Bran across from him. They ate suckling pig that night, and pigeon pie, and turnips soaking in butter, and afterward the cook had promised honeycombs. Summer snatched table scraps from Bran's hand, while Grey Wind and Shaggydog fought over a bone in the corner. Winterfell's dogs would not come near the hall now. Bran had found that strange at first, but he was growing used to it.

 

It may be that the only Starks to survive will be Sansa and possibly Rickon.  When Lief says the wolves will survive, I wonder if she is talking about the Stark direwolves and which ones.  I'd go for Bran and Arya as second lifers but I think Ghost will be killed. 

[alienarea]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is interesting.  Who has GRRM cast as Frodo, the one whose long journey ends up destroying the one ring but is forever damaged by carrying the burden.  I'd go with Jon simply because of Samwell.
 

I'd also tie it to the story of the Dark Angel:
 

 I think this is setting Arya up to give Jon the gift of Mercy with the weapon he gave her.  And this will be too much for her to bare:

I think this is foreshadowing that Arya will not survive;
 

 Bran and Hodor could also make a parallel to Frodo and Samwise.  Hodor may also be a dark angel:
 

It may be that the only Starks to survive will be Sansa and possibly Rickon.  When Lief says the wolves will survive, I wonder if she is talking about the Stark direwolves and which ones.  I'd go for Bran and Arya as second lifers but I think Ghost will be killed. 

There is the forshadowing by Jon that Arya will be found with a needle in her frozen hands, and later he gives her Needle. Because he says "They will find you ..." I always thought he would go before her. 

My take is that Ghost and Nymeria survive, and Bran as a tree.

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I think this is foreshadowing that Arya will not survive;
 

Why didn't you highlight the whole bit?

Quote

"You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

Your interpretation is popular but a very literal reading. 

In the full statement, we see Jon is warning her to stop hiding and go back to her room or else she'll be needling through winter...etc. 

At the end of this chapter, George has Arya returning to her room to find her Sept and mother waiting for her. 

Quote

Arya didn't think it was funny. "I hate needlework!" she said with passion. "It's not fair!"

"Nothing is fair," Jon said. He messed up her hair again and walked away from her, Ghost moving silently beside him. Nymeria started to follow too, then stopped and came back when she saw that Arya was not coming.

Reluctantly she turned in the other direction.

It was worse than Jon had thought. It wasn't Septa Mordane waiting in her room. It was Septa Mordane and her mother.

Arya will stop hiding (who she is, leave the FM) and return to her room (go home to Winterfell). 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, a black swan said:

Why didn't you highlight the whole bit?

Your interpretation is popular but a very literal reading. 

In the full statement, we see Jon is warning her to stop hiding and go back to her room or else she'll be needling through winter...etc. 

At the end of this chapter, George has Arya returning to her room to find her Sept and mother waiting for her. 

Arya will stop hiding (who she is, leave the FM) and return to her room (go home to Winterfell). 

Because it wasn't relevant to the point that I was making. But you make an interesting point about hiding. Because hiding in plain sight is part of a FM's training.  The GOHH tells Arya that she can't hide from her though.  Of course, we know about Arya now and her kill list and the sewing (killing) she will be doing all throughout winter.

[corbon]

On 6/10/2020 at 8:54 AM, Melifeather said:

This is the popular accepted chain of events, which I believe is all "bait" to encourage the reader to come to an incorrect conclusion. But  yes, Ned and Robert had an argument over the bloody and flag wrapped bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon. Ned said something to the effect that the main reason they went to war was to prevent the deaths of children, and Robert said he didn't see children, only dragon spawn. Then sometime later they reconcile over their shared grief for Lyanna. IMO this does not confirm that Lyanna died after the argument, only that they reconciled while talking about her.

 

Quote

Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

 

On 6/10/2020 at 8:54 AM, Melifeather said:

Catelyn said that Jon was already living at Winterfell when she arrived, and I believe Ned was with her - that he picked her up on his way back from Starfall.

There is no indication for this belief anywhere.

Quote

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

Ned brought his bastard home, not sent him home. Catelyn rode to Winterfell, no mention of being with Ned here or anywhere else..

On 6/10/2020 at 8:54 AM, Melifeather said:

Of course a lot of people don't like that theory, because then that would mean that Jon was at Winterfell before Ned went to Starfall.

People don't like your theories because you just ignore any text, no matter how explicit, that doesn't conform to your desired result. It has nothing to do with where those theories go and everything to do with what GRRM has written.

[QhorinQuarterhand]

 

On 6/10/2020 at 9:43 AM, Frey family reunion said:

I'd buy into this a bit more, if the author gave us something to go on.  Perhaps Robert asking Ned to see Jon, or invite Jon hunting, or do something where he could have some type of contact with Jon.  But we don't have any evidence to show that Robert had any interest in the boy whatsoever.

It's my same issue that I have with Ned being concerned about hiding Jon from Robert.  There is nothing in the text to indicate that Ned was concerned about Robert's surprise visit to Winterfell.  Indeed the opposite, it put a smile on the face of the normally somber Ned.   Nor do we have any evidence that Ned tried to keep Jon away from Robert during Robert's visit.

Exactly. The canon text goes against the idea that Ned was knowingly hiding Jon TargBastard so that Robert wouldn't kill him. 

As you said, Ned is unconcerned that Robert will see Jon and think he is a Targ and want to kill him. Also if Ned had spent the past 14 years hiding Jon because he thinks Robert is out to kill all the remaining Targaryens...then why was he genuinely shocked that Robert ordered Dany's assassination? 

It just doesn't add up. 

[Black Crow]

3 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

From this it is simple to deduce that Jon has exactly zero noticeably Targaryen features. 

Exactly. The canon text goes against the idea that Ned was knowingly hiding Jon TargBastard so that Robert wouldn't kill him. 

As you said, Ned is unconcerned that Robert will see Jon and think he is a Targ and want to kill him. Also if Ned had spent the past 14 years hiding Jon because he thinks Robert is out to kill all the remaining Targaryens...then why was he genuinely shocked that Robert ordered Dany's assassination? 

It just doesn't add up. 

Its not only a lack of noticeably Targaryen features, but we're explicitly told of his characteristically Stark features [I can remember a wishful post by one of the faithful, suggesting that Jon will rise from the dead with silvery-white hair] and that lack of Targaryen features also adds another problem for those wishing to proclaim him king.

 

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its not only a lack of noticeably Targaryen features, but we're explicitly told of his characteristically Stark features [I can remember a wishful post by one of the faithful, suggesting that Jon will rise from the dead with silvery-white hair] and that lack of Targaryen features also adds another problem for those wishing to proclaim him king.

 

Jon's emo and brooding like Rhaegar for sure

[Black Crow]

29 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Jon's emo and brooding like Rhaegar for sure

Yeah, but its hardly likely to lift him on to the throne