Heresy 231 Alienarea Strikes Again

[alienarea]

On 6/12/2020 at 2:12 PM, Black Crow said:

Yeah, but its hardly likely to lift him on to the throne 

Of course, not. 

Though we are both joking about it, the underlaying question is what is a visual and what a  behaviour legacy? Lyanna was never described as brooding, that is something Jon would have inherited from his father. Which excludes Robert, Brandon and Arthur. And leaves us with Rhaegar ... and Ned.

[Frey family reunion]

15 hours ago, alienarea said:

Of course, not. 

Though we are both joking about it, the underlaying question is what is a visual and what a  behaviour legacy? Lyanna was never described as brooding, that is something Jon would have inherited from his father. Which excludes Robert, Brandon and Arthur. And leaves us with Rhaegar ... and Ned.

I’m sorry but this is a bit of a silly argument.  I don’t think “brooding” is a necessarily inheritable trait.  In fact it’s a stage that many of us go through no matter who are parents are.  Especially as teenagers.  Who knows as to whether Brandon, or Lyanna, or Arthur ever brooded?  

Jon has always had a bit of a grievance because he was often reminded that he was a second class citizen among his family.   Does this make him moody at times?  Sure.  Jon has also shown to be a bit petulant, and immature as well.  Does that mean that Rhaegar can’t be his father because we were never given examples of Rhaegar being petulant or immature?  Jon also has a bit of a temper as well.

Jon never had much patience for books either, does that mean he can’t be related to Rhaegar?  Jon also never took up the harp or any other musical instrument.  I think you see where I’m going here. 

[alienarea]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m sorry but this is a bit of a silly argument.  I don’t think “brooding” is a necessarily inheritable trait.  In fact it’s a stage that many of us go through no matter who are parents are.  Especially as teenagers.  Who knows as to whether Brandon, or Lyanna, or Arthur ever brooded?  

Jon has always had a bit of a grievance because he was often reminded that he was a second class citizen among his family.   Does this make him moody at times?  Sure.  Jon has also shown to be a bit petulant, and immature as well.  Does that mean that Rhaegar can’t be his father because we were never given examples of Rhaegar being petulant or immature?  Jon also has a bit of a temper as well.

Jon never had much patience for books either, does that mean he can’t be related to Rhaegar?  Jon also never took up the harp or any other musical instrument.  I think you see where I’m going here. 

I see where you are going, and your examples are valid, still it seems you're missing my point.

There is more than looks to be inherited.

 

[Black Crow]

The point though is that any attempt to promote a long-lost heir - and especially one nobody knew about, depends both on the optics and on the candidate playing his or her part.

Set Perkin[1] or as we know him, Young Griff, against Perkin [2] Jon Snow and its no contest.

Or put it another way [1] has landed in the heart of Westeros with an army - and even elephants. He faces a fight and if he wins he can justify parking himself on the throne as the lawful heir of the last Targaryen monarch,

[2] on the other hand has nothing, especially not the looks and he's also far far away. No-one is going to fall to their knees and pledge fealty to him as the Targaryen heir, with or without a mouldy parchment of even mouldier bit if wedding cake - although a fair few are doing so to the King in the North.

 

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

The point though is that any attempt to promote a long-lost heir - and especially one nobody knew about, depends both on the optics and on the candidate playing his or her part.

Set Perkin [a] or as we know him, Young Griff against Perking Jon Snow and its no contest.

Or put it another way [a] has landed in the heart of Westeros with an army - and elephants. He faces a fight and if he wins he can justify parking himself on the throne as the lawful heir of the last Targaryen monarch,

on the other hand has nothing, not even the looks and he's also far far away. No-one is going to fall to their knees and pledge fealty to him as the Targaryen heir, although a fair few are doing so to the King in the North.

 

Agreed.

Basically, all Manderly needs is Shaggydog's head and pelt and a child that has the could pass as Rickon to claim Winterfell in his name.

[LynnS]

You know I love 2Cellos.  Thought you might like to see this from Hauser.  Alone, Together.  Beginning with Benedictus: Blessed are those who come in the name of the Lord.  And finishing with Nessun Dorma: None shall sleep.

 

[Melifeather]

I've been reading the Diana Gabaldon Outlander series and came upon a description of corpse-candle fungus and was intrigued by the bright blue description and wondered if it were a real-life thing - it is. It's especially interesting to me since the Greyjoys are "ironborn" and my suspicions that the wildlings may be closely related to them through early First Men ancestors. It is entertaining to contemplate the ramifications of "ironborn" corpses raising from the dead with bright blue eyes....

Corpse-candle fungus

If you were to get up close and personal with Ötzi the Iceman – the 5,000-year-old mummy of a tattooed, deep-voiced man who died and was frozen in the Alps – you’d notice that his skin is flecked with tiny bits of blue. At first, it would appear that these oddly bluish crystal formations embedded in his skin are from freezing to death or some other sort of trauma, but it’s actually a mineral called vivianite (or blue ironstone) and it happens to form quite often on corpses left in iron-rich environments.

<snip>

So, when a person dies and starts decomposing, all this phosphate leaks out into the environment around the corpse.

If this environment happens to be wet and filled with iron – like that of White’s coffin or Ötzi’s glacial tomb – the phosphate interacts with these other molecules to form the mineral vivianite.

At this early stage, the crystals are colourless, but if they interact with oxygen in the air, they quickly turn deep shades of blue, creating an odd scene for anyone who happens to find the corpse afterwards.

 

[Lady Dyanna]

OK @Melifeather  That’s just freaky. But it also takes me back to those damned ironwood trees and their black bark. And also the nameless blue leaved and black barked trees in Essos, where creatures similar to to CotF are said to have once roamed. 

[QhorinQuarterhand]

On 6/9/2020 at 12:41 PM, LynnS said:

Correct me if I'm wrong.  Ned had a yelling match with Robert before going to the TOJ. What do you think that was about? When Ned returns from Starfall, then they talk about Lyanna and grieve together, but there is no mention of Jon or Ned didn't bring Jon with him back to KL.  So what happened to Jon?  Was he sent ahead with his wetnurse by ship to the Quiet Isle where Ned met them.  Also retrieving Lyanna's bones before sending them onto Winterfell; while he returned Lady Dustin's horse.  Doesn't Catelyn say they were already at Winterfell when she arrived and Ned arrived later?  I don't remember.

Well we don't actually know when the TOJ or happened. Or entirely who was there. I'm starting to like the idea that Ned's fever dream represents two different events. One much earlier in the war where he found Lyanna as she was dying. The other a probably pointless fight with the Kingsguard later. 

But I think the idea that Lyanna dying before Robert killed Rhaegar on the Trident is a good one. We don't hear anything of Robert trying to question Rhaegar before killing him. 

Ned and Robert's actions afterwards do not seem to line up with two people who are desperate to find a missing Lyanna. Even after King's Landing fell they didn't rush off to look for her. Wounded or not don't you think Robert would be desperate to find her? Why would Ned go to lift the Siege of Storm's End instead of looking for his sister Lyanna? Would Robert really order that? I doubt it. 

[QhorinQuarterhand]

On 6/11/2020 at 4:31 AM, LynnS said:

Wasn't there a bit of a kerfuffle before Jon left the Hall.  Some drunken behavior calling attention to himself.  That is probably when he was noticed.

 “A bastard can have honor too,” Jon said. “I am ready to swear your oath.”

“You are a boy of fourteen,” Benjen said. “Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up.”
“I don’t care about that!” Jon said hotly.
“You might, if you knew what it meant,” Benjen said.  “If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.”
Jon felt anger rise inside him. “I’m not your son!”
Benjen Stark stood up. “More’s the pity.” He put a hand on Jon’s shoulder. “Come back to me after you’ve fathered a few bastards of your own, and we’ll see how you feel.”
Jon trembled. “I will never father a bastard,” he said carefully. “Never!” He spat it out like venom.
Suddenly he realized that the table had fallen silent, and they were all looking at him. He felt the tears begin to well behind his eyes. He pushed himself to his feet.
“I must be excused,” he said with the last of his dignity. He whirled and bolted before they could see him cry. He must have drunk more wine than he had realized. His feet got tangled under him as he tried to leave, and he lurched sideways into a serving girl and sent a flagon of spiced wine crashing to the floor. Laughter boomed all around him, and Jon felt hot tears on his cheeks. Someone tried to steady him. He wrenched free of their grip and ran, half-blind, for the door. Ghost followed close at his heels, out into the night.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

You might, if you knew what it meant,” Benjen said.  “If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.”

This is curious.  Is Benjen talking about the promises Ned made to Lyanna? Or is he talking  about himself?

[Melifeather]

13 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

OK @Melifeather  That’s just freaky. But it also takes me back to those damned ironwood trees and their black bark. And also the nameless blue leaved and black barked trees in Essos, where creatures similar to to CotF are said to have once roamed. 

Yes. I had thought of the ironwood also. Its shocking how intense the coloring of the blue fungus is! If I were to stumble upon a corpse in the woods AND they were blue - I would freak out! LOL  And the necessary elements of water and iron are so obviously inspiration for white walkers. Even the "candle" part of the name implies a "light". I believe "corpse-candle" is also the name given to blue lights some people claim to see floating around cemeteries at night.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is curious.  Is Benjen talking about the promises Ned made to Lyanna? Or is he talking  about himself?

He's talking about himself, but it does suggest that for him joining the Watch was a matter of choice rather than of family duty, and that in turn begs the question as to Why?

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Ned and Robert's actions afterwards do not seem to line up with two people who are desperate to find a missing Lyanna. Even after King's Landing fell they didn't rush off to look for her. Wounded or not don't you think Robert would be desperate to find her? Why would Ned go to lift the Siege of Storm's End instead of looking for his sister Lyanna? Would Robert really order that? I doubt it. 

Then again you see Lyanna disappeared over a year before and so far as we know nothing has been heard of her since. There's no reason to assume she's still alive, far less any clues we're privy to as to her whereabouts.

Lord Eddard obviously did pick up a clue at some point, but it could have been a chance encounter rather than an intense search.

As you all know I prefer the simple answers myself and suggest that in the recounter at the tower Lord Eddard and his companions were doing what it said on the tin - running down a part of bitter-enders - until a dying Ser Arthur told Lord Eddard where his sister was.

[Frey family reunion]

8 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Well we don't actually know when the TOJ or happened. Or entirely who was there. I'm starting to like the idea that Ned's fever dream represents two different events. One much earlier in the war where he found Lyanna as she was dying. The other a probably pointless fight with the Kingsguard later. 

But I think the idea that Lyanna dying before Robert killed Rhaegar on the Trident is a good one. We don't hear anything of Robert trying to question Rhaegar before killing him. 

Ned and Robert's actions afterwards do not seem to line up with two people who are desperate to find a missing Lyanna. Even after King's Landing fell they didn't rush off to look for her. Wounded or not don't you think Robert would be desperate to find her? Why would Ned go to lift the Siege of Storm's End instead of looking for his sister Lyanna? Would Robert really order that? I doubt it. 

I agree with much of this, though I have a hard time reconciling Lyanna dying prior to the Trident with this quote:

Quote

It had taken another death to reconcile them;  Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

Certainly you can parse the quote, to mean something other than what it appears to mean, but I understand the criticism over doing that.

The other possibility is that at the time of the Battle of the Trident, Lyanna had been found, and had been found either pregnant, or having just given birth.  Robert's rage against Rhaegar is that the Lyanna that was supposed to be his and his alone had been forever denied him by Rhaegar.

After all, why does Robert assume that Rhaegar raped Lyanna and raped her possibly thousands of times?  For Robert, if Lyanna was pregnant after having disappeared with Rhaegar, this would be the only possible reason that she would have allowed herself to be "dishonored".  We're never really told how Robert thinks Lyanna died.  Other than Rhaegar was responsible and Rhaegar must have raped her thousands of times.  Surely even Robert can put two and two together:  being raped thousands of times could lead to childbirth, and in the Westeros time period, childbirth could lead to the death of the mother.

But you are absolutely correct that the events after the Sack do not seem to align with an active search to rescue Lyanna.  I think the biggest head scratcher is Tywin's decision to kill Rhaegar's children, and Robert's positive reaction to it.  

Robert should have been extremely angry with Twyin for the Lannisters having killed Elia and her children.  The idea of the exchange of royal hostages had to be something in the mind of GRRM when he wrote that passage.  After all we're reminded how protective Cat is over Jaime Lannister while he is a hostage because she knows that any harm to him could cause harm to her daughters.  

Surely Elia and her children would have been more use to Robert to exchange for Lyanna, assuming that she was still being held captive.  And even if he didn't want to exchange hostages, he surely would have realized that the death of Elia and her children could have led to Lyanna's death, especially if she was being held captive by Dorne.

Eddard certainly seems angry over the death of Elia's children but not apparently to the danger it could have caused Lyanna, but instead because, he has a fundamental problem with the murder of children.  And then Eddard's immediate action afterwards isn't to try to find Lyanna, (who's life would presumably now be in much greater danger) but to finish fighting the war.

Something doesn't really add  up.  Unless of course, Lyanna was dead prior to the Trident, or Lyanna had already been found prior to the Trident, and Robert was secure in the notion that no further harm could have come to Lyanna with the death of Elia and her children.

My guess is that while Robert, Eddard, and Connington fought the war, Eddard had others looking for Lyanna.  My guess is Howland Reed was probably the one who may have been put in charge of that duty.

 

[Melifeather]

24 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

until a dying Ser Arthur told Lord Eddard where his sister was.

Simple, but this is only your assumption.

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

After all, why does Robert assume that Rhaegar raped Lyanna and raped her possibly thousands of times?  For Robert, if Lyanna was pregnant after having disappeared with Rhaegar, this would be the only possible reason that she would have allowed herself to be "dishonored".  We're never really told how Robert thinks Lyanna died.  Other than Rhaegar was responsible and Rhaegar must have raped her thousands of times.  Surely even Robert can put two and two together:  being raped thousands of times could lead to childbirth, and in the Westeros time period, childbirth could lead to the death of the mother.

 

It is never said that Lyanna was "dishonored". That word is only used in conjunction with Ashara. I think Robert is making assumptions here, either that or he was the one that raped Lyanna. I look at him like I do Trump. Whatever comes out of his mouth as a criticism of others is something he himself is guilty of doing.

 

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

It is never said that Lyanna was "dishonored". That word is only used in conjunction with Ashara. I think Robert is making assumptions here, either that or he was the one that raped Lyanna. I look at him like I do Trump. Whatever comes out of his mouth as a criticism of others is something he himself is guilty of doing.

 

I take Robert at his word on this matter.  His anger at Rhaegar seems very real.  Now Robert may be lying to himself about Lyanna' being raped, since it would be an easier pill for him to swallow than the idea of her having consensual sex with Rhaegar, but it seems fairly evident that Robert came to a very certain conclusion that Lyanna and Rhaegar had sexual intercourse.  I think the only real reason Robert would go down that dark path, is that he was given evidence that could lead him to no other conclusion.  And evidence that Lyanna was pregnant would certainly be pretty good evidence.

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is curious.  Is Benjen talking about the promises Ned made to Lyanna? Or is he talking  about himself?

Presumably he's talking about the loss of starting a family, and becoming a father, at least in the traditional sense.  

Even though later in the conversation he seems to imply that Jon should have some bastards of his own before he decides to join the Night's Watch and take an oath of chastity.  Of course, Benjen should know that this is a bs argument, considering that the Night's Watch has a brothel that the sworn brothers often frequent, and presumably father bastards anyway.  

The real loss is not being a traditional father and not passing on your family name and legacy.

[Melifeather]

56 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I take Robert at his word on this matter.  His anger at Rhaegar seems very real.  Now Robert may be lying to himself about Lyanna' being raped, since it would be an easier pill for him to swallow than the idea of her having consensual sex with Rhaegar, but it seems fairly evident that Robert came to a very certain conclusion that Lyanna and Rhaegar had sexual intercourse.  I think the only real reason Robert would go down that dark path, is that he was given evidence that could lead him to no other conclusion.  And evidence that Lyanna was pregnant would certainly be pretty good evidence.

I don't think Robert was there when Ned found Lyanna, and Lyanna extracted some promises. In order to keep those promises, Ned admits he's had to lie - even to Robert, so for me I'm not convinced Lyanna was pregnant or raped. I suspect she died of a sword wound to the belly.