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Ser Lumpyhead

Who wanted Pate dead?

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So the Kindly Man tells Arya (The Ugly Little Girl) "... we who serve Him of Many Faces give his gift only to those who have been marked and chosen."

So who chose Pate?

Perhaps Leo Hightower, or Alleras, or Rosie's Mom, or Rosie herself, or maybe Archmaester Walgrave in one of his lucid moments?

Edited by Ser Lumpyhead

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1 minute ago, Ser Lumpyhead said:

So the Kindly Man tells Arya (The Ugly Little Girl) "... we who serve Him of Many Faces give his gift only to those who have been marked and chosen."

So who chose Pate?

Perhaps Leo Hightower, or Alleras, or Rosie's Mom, or Rosie herself, or maybe Archmaester Walgrave in one of his lucid moments?

No one wanted him dead.

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I think this is a critical point in all the theorizing about Jaqen-as-Alchemist. The Faceless Men are assassins and they have a code; they are not thieves, even for an item as valuable as Walgrave's key. Unless Pate was marked for death through a transaction at the House of Black and White, I don't think the Faceless Men would murder him in order to obtain the key.

Jaqen helps Arya with her plot to free the northern bannermen at Harrenhal only when he feels he has no choice to discharge his obligation to her. I suspect he needs to complete another mission - the mission that brought him to Westeros - so he wants to both survive and to complete the "three deaths" he owes her for (personal?) religious reasons.

Unless.

We suspect that Arya never surrenders her true "Arya Stark of Winterfell" identity, even when she repeatedly tells the kindly man that she is No One. If "Jaqen" also has an underlying identity that he clung to during his training as an assassin, he may be on a rogue mission of his own, departing from the code of the Faceless Men and exacting personal revenge in his efforts to obtain the key.

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Here is more of that passage:

38 minutes ago, Seams said:

He had guards. Two of them, a tall thin man and a short thick one. They went with him everywhere, from when he left his house in the morning till he returned at night. They made certain no one got close to the old man without his leave. Once a drunk almost staggered into him as he was coming home from the soup shop, but the tall one stepped between them and gave the man a sharp shove that knocked him to the ground. At the soup shop, the short one always tasted the onion broth first. The old man waited until the broth had cooled before he took a sip, long enough to be sure his guardsman had suffered no ill effects.

"He's afraid," she realized, "or else he knows that someone wants to kill him."

"He does not know," said the kindly man, "but he suspects."

"The guards go with him even when he slips out to make water," she said, "but he doesn't go when they do. The tall one is the quicker. I'll wait till he is making water, walk into the soup shop, and stab the old man through the eye."

"And the other guard?"

"He's slow and stupid. I can kill him too."

"Are you some butcher of the battlefield, hacking down every man who stands in your way?"

"No."

"I would hope not. You are a servant of the Many-Faced God, and we who serve Him of Many Faces give his gift only to those who have been marked and chosen."

She understood. Kill him. Kill only him.

Jaquen clearly intends to murder Pate. But his code does not allow for murder just to further another objective (no "bodies as collateral damage, as it were). So unless he is indeed going against the code, the target had to have been Pate, right?

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Jaquen killed Pate because he needed to take Pate's place at the Citadel. He needed access to the Citadel, the key alone was not enough. To get into the Citadel, as many times as it will be needed, the sure way to do that was to have a face of a person that has a free entry into the Citadel, for example one of acolites.

Furthermore, Pate was an idiot - sooner or later he would have blabered to his pals that he got together with that girl for whom he needed money. And obviously they would have asked him from where or whom did he got those money. And Pate would have told them that the Alchemist gave him that golden coin, in exchange for the key.

So Pate had to die. Because of those two reasons.

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3 hours ago, Ser Lumpyhead said:

Jaquen clearly intends to murder Pate. But his code does not allow for murder just to further another objective (no "bodies as collateral damage, as it were). So unless he is indeed going against the code, the target had to have been Pate, right?

Maybe Pate is the third life that was still owed.

Jaqen tells Arya that she stole three lives from the red god when she saved him, Rorge and Biter. He kills Weese and Chiswyck for her, but she names Jaqen as her third name when he refuses to help her free the northmen and then ends up helping her so that she would unsay his name, which she does. Then he tells her the debt is paid and that it's time for him to "die."

But the debt he paid was to Arya when I think the debt he was paying was to the Many-Face God rather, and he didn't truly die, he's just wearing a different face. So maybe he still owed a third death to the Many-Face God. If it's a life for life type of situation, then he would still need to kill someone to fulfill that bargain.

So Pate would cover that. He's a means to an end and gives him a clean slate. The debt would be paid in full with Pate's death.

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8 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Maybe Pate is the third life that was still owed.

Jaqen tells Arya that she stole three lives from the red god when she saved him, Rorge and Biter. He kills Weese and Chiswyck for her, but she names Jaqen as her third name when he refuses to help her free the northmen and then ends up helping her so that she would unsay his name, which she does. Then he tells her the debt is paid and that it's time for him to "die."

But the debt he paid was to Arya when I think the debt he was paying was to the Many-Face God rather, and he didn't truly die, he's just wearing a different face. So maybe he still owed a third death to the Many-Face God. If it's a life for life type of situation, then he would still need to kill someone to fulfill that bargain.

So Pate would cover that. He's a means to an end and gives him a clean slate. The debt would be paid in full with Pate's death.

But several guards died after Jaqen threw Weasel Soup on them. So the debt would have already been paid in full with some death left over.

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The question can't be answered unless we know who wants full access to the Citadel and it's libraries and/or who wants glass candles.  Who has the money to bankroll an assassination and who has access to the House of Black and White to make the deal.

ETA: Or is could be that there is no client (as proposed by Sweetsunray)  and the FM are infiltrating the Citadel to spy and collect information.  This is essentially what Arya does as part her training; report back on three new things she learns every day.

Given that the political landscape is shifting it would certainly be useful to know how to use a glass candle. Also to have access to the ravenry and incoming messages from maesters across the land.   

So I think Pate's death only serves the FM or the Iron Bank.

Edited by LynnS

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13 minutes ago, Seams said:

But several guards died after Jaqen threw Weasel Soup on them. So the debt would have already been paid in full with some death left over.

That is true. Thank you for that reminder. So I guess Jaqen will kill if he has to. 

We really have no idea what Jaqen's mission in Westeros was. First, he gets himself arrested for who knows what in KL and thrown in the black cells. Then he is put in a cage to be taken to the Wall. Then he's at Harrenhal. Then he turns up in Oldtown. That's a lot of mileage he has under his belt. 

And there's the whole idea that he was the one who killed Balon Greyjoy, which would put him at Pyke somewhere in the middle of ASoS. Then he'd have to take a ship to get to Oldtown, if he didn't make a pit stop somewhere before arriving there. 

I imagine that Jaqen might be a high ranking member of the FM which could allow him more freedom.

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I think Pate's death is a case of the end justifies the means. You try to avoid harming innocents, the unmarked ones, but if the mission requires it, so be it. 

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6 hours ago, Seams said:

If "Jaqen" also has an underlying identity that he clung to during his training as an assassin, he may be on a rogue mission of his own, departing from the code of the Faceless Men and exacting personal revenge in his efforts to obtain the key.

This seems to be a distinct possibility. And if so, it would foreshadow Arya doing much the same, using her mad skillz learned in the House of Black & White for her own personal vendettas.

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And there's the whole idea that he was the one who killed Balon Greyjoy, which would put him at Pyke somewhere in the middle of ASoS. Then he'd have to take a ship to get to Oldtown, if he didn't make a pit stop somewhere before arriving there. 

I had assumed that it was Euron himself who killed his brother Balon, but maybe I just watch too much teevie. Nonetheless, "Jaqen H'gar" sure gets around.

But that still doesn't answer the question of what his mission(s) were. Was he heading to Old Town all along, and just got picked up in King's Landing for something else? (And why would he be so careless?) It seems as if "Jaqen" wants full access to the Citadel, via that skeleton key, and surely there's a reason that he "matriculated" close to Marwen the Mage, a shadowbinder from As'shai. Who had working glass candles, kind of a Valyrian weirnet system.

Edited by zandru
2nd thoughts

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Who could Pate have offended so much that a Faceless Man from Braavos was the best solution?  I see the issue with his death being just a means to an end, but there are enough casualties in Harrenhall to reason that this is a guideline or principal, not a hard rule.  Sure some of the people in Pate's circle have funds, but would Pate really be so hard to dispose of that it's worth the price?  Old Town is a port on a river, you don't need to mortgage your family's future to get rid of a body or have a drunk knocked off in a setting like that.  And then what a lucky coincidence it is for the Faceless Men that one of their marks is coincidentally the guy that can get them access to Walgrave's key which they need for something else that they're up to (another contract? a hidden superagenda?)?  What if they didn't get the contract on Pate? They'd have to wait to make their move or come up with a way of procuring the key which didn't involve topping some dude and impersonating him. Pate's just the wrong guy at the wrong time.

 

What are those Faceless Men up to though? 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Jay21 said:

What are those Faceless Men up to though? 

That triggered a third thought... the Braavosi coin that Jaqen gave to Arya. Arya received one to leave with the body of the insurance fraudster. Maybe the coins are used as the Faceless Men's signature, a kind of Mark of Zorro? And if so, why would Jaqen have "extras"?

I'm still inclined to the theories that either he's a highly placed Faceless Man on a mission, or a rogue. I can see how a rogue would help the storyline in terms of Arya's arc. Then again, I could see how the Hound might have helped Arya's arc, but that doesn't yet seem to have happened.

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6 minutes ago, zandru said:

'm still inclined to the theories that either he's a highly placed Faceless Man on a mission, or a rogue. I can see how a rogue would help the storyline in terms of Arya's arc. Then again, I could see how the Hound might have helped Arya's arc, but that doesn't yet seem to have happened.

If he turns out to be a rogue FM does the story get a novel longer?  I think he's forwarding whatever agenda it is that they have. Faceless Man internal conflicts have to be beyond the story's scope, right?  please? I mean I love these books and all, but they have to end somewhere.

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8 hours ago, Ser Lumpyhead said:

Here is more of that passage:

Jaquen clearly intends to murder Pate. But his code does not allow for murder just to further another objective (no "bodies as collateral damage, as it were). So unless he is indeed going against the code, the target had to have been Pate, right?

That assumes that FM assassin only ever act for their 'religious' assassination missions, where the code applies.

Why wouldn't the FM organisation also have its own 'political' aims and plans? For which the 'religious' code wouldn't apply necessarily.

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On 5/20/2020 at 8:48 PM, Ser Lumpyhead said:

So who chose Pate?

Perhaps Leo Hightower, or Alleras, or Rosie's Mom, or Rosie herself, or maybe Archmaester Walgrave in one of his lucid moments?

This question makes me crazy cause I have no idea how to answer it. If it were one of the five people Ser Lumpyhead mentions I think it could only be Leo Tyrell, given how expensive the Faceless Men are. They get more expensive the more important a target is, which would theoretically make Pate a cheap target, but I still don't think Rosie or her mum could have afforded to hire one. Alleras maybe, but I don't see Alleras wanting Pate dead. I doubt Walgrave would have the money for a Faceless Man either, and even though we don't know much about him I don't think it's his style - he'd just go to Gormon, I think. Gormon already dislikes Pate so he wouldn't need much of an excuse to get rid of him.

That being said I don't think Leo would have either. I don't think Leo wanted Pate dead, because that's then one less person he can bully, which strikes me as Leo's main joy in life.

Edited by TheTargaryen

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On 5/20/2020 at 11:48 AM, Ser Lumpyhead said:

So the Kindly Man tells Arya (The Ugly Little Girl) "... we who serve Him of Many Faces give his gift only to those who have been marked and chosen."

 

The Faceless men are obviously lying their asses off. Their assassination business is just a front.

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I hate to be that person, but it's Leo Tyrell, not Hightower. And he has no reason to have Pate killed. 

For one, he has the skill at arms to do it himself, and for another, he is highborn, his father is the Commander of the City Watch, he is connected to the Hightowers by marriage, and he is Mace Tyrell's cousin. If he killed Pate, whose status is as low as dirt, I doubt anyone would condemn him for it. It just seems like overkill hiring a faceless man to do the deed. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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It does seem inconsistent, but thematically Pate chooses himself when he takes the coin, as that confirms he's betrayed his station. Had Pate chosen not to betray he'd not have died, the Alchemist fairly gave him that chance. The kill is obviously a means to infiltrate the Citadel.

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