Which factions/sides do you support?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

5th Dornish wars

The 5th one??? But I don't think that Daeron's invasion was unjustified. The Dornish had been a constant nuisance to Westeros since the Dornish War, constantly either raiding via a Vulture King, or cutting the middle man and just attempting to invade Westeros themselves (with predictable outcomes). Also the shit they pulled in the Second Dornish war, especially with Daeron, makes me really appreciate the Young Dragon. Also the young dragon only killed the soldiers opposing him. So yeah I can easily see why so many people support Dorne over Aegon, but I have to say I don't see anything they had over the Targs in the second Dornish War. Given how they acted, I'm just surprised the Targs didn't retaliate earlier.

[frenin]

17 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The 5th one???

How many were?? They is so many filler between Aegon's war and Daeron's that i get lost.

 

17 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

But I don't think that Daeron's invasion was unjustified.

Well, it was unjustified, Daeron didn't go to war because the Vulture kings and as far as we can  tell, the Dornish stopped being annoying early in the Dragonbane's reign, he did it because he was a warmonger.

 

17 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also the shit they pulled in the Second Dornish war, especially with Daeron, makes me really appreciate the Young Dragon.

Daeron's death was the only thing heinous and unjustifiable in my book, the rest is just warfare.

 

Quote

Also the young dragon only killed the soldiers opposing him.

Did he now??  They were opposing him, that's true, but they were not soldiers.

 

This tactic proved less effective than Daeron might have hoped, however. Whilst the hostages helped ensure the continued loyalty of their own blood, the king had not anticipated the tenacity of Dorne’s smallfolk, over whom he had no hold. Ten thousand men, it is said, died in the battle for Dorne; forty thousand more died over the course of the following three years, as common Dornishmen fought on stubbornly against the king’s men.

 

17 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

but I have to say I don't see anything they had over the Targs in the second Dornish War. Given how they acted, I'm just surprised the Targs didn't retaliate earlier.

Well, the Targs started an unprovoked war yet again, the Dornish nobility yielded, Dorne kept fighting, Lord Tyrell was horrible and had it coming and then Dorne rebelled again. 

[Myrish Lace]

14 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

• The Conquest: Aegon or the Kings? 7 - 4
• The Dornish War: The Iron Throne or Dorne? 3 - 7
• Maegor or Aenys? 2 - 6
• The Faith militant uprising: Targs or the Faith? 8 - 2
• The Council of 101: Rhaenys, Laenor or Viserys? 9 - 1 - 0
• The Dance: Greens or Blacks? 1 - 9
• The Second Dornish War: Daeron or the Martells? 3 - 5
• The Blackfyre Rebellion: Blackfyre or Targaryen? 1 - 9
• Roberts Rebellion: Loyalists or rebels? 4 - 7
• War of the Five Kings: Stannis, Robb, Balon, Joffrey or Renly? 2 - 8 - 0 - 0 - 1
• Mance's attack: Wildlings or NW? 4 - 5
• War in the North, Stannis or Roose? 9 - 1
• Slaver's Bay campaign: Dany or the Slavers? 11 - 0 (okay this is kinda pointless, but still)
• Kingsmoot: Asha, Victarion, Euron or Farwynd? 9 - 0 - 0 - 2
• The final kings: Stannis, Aegon, Jon, Dany, Tommen or Euron? 1 - 2 - 2 - 5 - 0 - 0

1. The Kings.

2. Dorne. 

3. Aenys.

4. The Faith.

5. Viserys

6. Greens

7. Martells

8. Targaryen

9. Rebels

10. Stannis

11. Mance

12. Stannis

13. Depends on how Slaver's Bay campaign ends. It would be very hard to justify all the devastation and enormous death toll if some Shavepate is left to play Cleon on the ruins.

14. Victarion.

15. Tommen can't rule, you have to specify the regent.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

Well, the Targs started an unprovoked war yet again

I'm really curious with F&B 2 to see the context for the second Dornish War.

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

as far as we can  tell, the Dornish stopped being annoying early in the Dragonbane's reign

We have no idea of that given that F&B ended there. My guess is that they didn't just stop all of a sudden.

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

Daeron's death was the only thing heinous and unjustifiable in my book

Putting an envoy in a pit of snakes was totally okay right? Or refusing to release a precious captive otherwise?

[frenin]

1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Putting an envoy in a pit of snakes was totally okay right? Or refusing to release a precious captive otherwise?

Well yes, the first is completely fine. The second is more dumb than anything.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

Well yes, the first is completely fine.

A peace envoy, protected by every single rule of hospitality under a peace banner, and they sent him to for what they thought die. And you say it was okay. I'm going to ignore the fact that Baelor was also the only person that would have given them peace and that with him dead, they would have suffered even more war. So it wasn't only cruel but very stupid too.

[frenin]

5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

A peace envoy, protected by every single rule of hospitality under a peace banner, and they sent him to for what they thought die. And you say it was okay. I'm going to ignore the fact that Baelor was also the only person that would have given them peace and that with him dead, they would have suffered even more war. So it wasn't only cruel but very stupid too.

Once they attacked Daeron it was clear what was their endgame and they expected war regardless, since no one could've expected Baelor. So after the deed was done, yes, i'm fine with that. It is absolutely stupid tho. Oh, you're talking about Baelor, i thought you were talking about Aemon, yeah it was cruel and stupid.

[CassDarry]

16 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So I was curious what are the various sides people on this forum support in the history of Westeros. I'll put the results on the right of each one as they get updated, also now that more people voted I''m gonna put my own opinions here too:

1. The Conquest: Aegon or the Kings? 8 - 7
2. The Dornish War: The Iron Throne or Dorne? 4 - 10
3. Maegor or Aenys? 2 - 10
4. The Faith militant uprising: Targs or the Faith? 10 - 4
5. The Council of 101: Rhaenys, Laenor or Viserys? 13 - 1 - 0
6. The Dance: Greens or Blacks? 3 - 11
7. The Second Dornish War: Daeron or the Martells? 4 - 7
8. The Blackfyre Rebellion: Blackfyre or Targaryen? 1 - 13
9. Roberts Rebellion: Loyalists or rebels? 4 - 11
10. War of the Five Kings: Stannis, Robb, Balon, Joffrey or Renly? 4 - 9 - 0 - 1 - 1
11. Mance's attack: Wildlings or NW? 8 - 5
12. War in the North, Stannis or Roose? 12 - 2
13. Slaver's Bay campaign: Dany or the Slavers? 15 - 0 (okay this is kinda pointless, but still)
14. Kingsmoot: Asha, Victarion, Euron or Farwynd? 12 - 1 - 0 - 2
15. The final kings: Stannis, Aegon, Jon, Dany, Tommen or Euron? 2 - 2 - 2 - 6 - 1 - 0

1. Aegon

2. Iron Throne

3. Aenys

4. Targaryens

5. Laenor Velaryon 

6. Blacks

7. Targaryens

8. Blackfyre

9. Loyalists

10.Renly

11. Nights Watch 

12. Stannis

13. Dany

14. Euron

15. Aegon

[Hugorfonics]

19 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So I was curious what are the various sides people on this forum support in the history of Westeros. I'll put the results on the right of each one as they get updated, also now that more people voted I''m gonna put my own opinions here too:

1. The Conquest: Aegon or the Kings? 8 - 8
2. The Dornish War: The Iron Throne or Dorne? 4 - 11
3. Maegor or Aenys? 2 - 11
4. The Faith militant uprising: Targs or the Faith? 10 - 5
5. The Council of 101: Rhaenys, Laenor or Viserys? 13 - 1 - 1
6. The Dance: Greens or Blacks? 4 - 11
7. The Second Dornish War: Daeron or the Martells? 4 - 8
8. The Blackfyre Rebellion: Blackfyre or Targaryen? 1 - 14
9. Roberts Rebellion: Loyalists or rebels? 4 - 12
10. War of the Five Kings: Stannis, Robb, Balon, Joffrey or Renly? 5 - 9 - 0 - 1 - 1
11. Mance's attack: Wildlings or NW? 6 - 8
12. War in the North, Stannis or Roose? 13 - 2
13. Slaver's Bay campaign: Dany or the Slavers? 15 - 0 (okay this is kinda pointless, but still)
14. Kingsmoot: Asha, Victarion, Euron or Farwynd? 12 - 2 - 0 - 2
15. The final kings: Stannis, Aegon, Jon, Dany, Tommen or Euron? 2 - 2 - 2 - 6 - 1 - 0

1. (Umm, pass. theyre all pretty cool.)

2. Dorne.

3. Maegor.

4. Targaryen

5. Rhaenys

6. Blacks. (Not a fan, but I really disliked the Greens)

7. Martell (I do like me some young drago tho)

8.Targ. (I love Blackfyres, I just love Brynden more.)

9. Rebels. (Not a fan, but not one of Aerys either)

10. (Damn. Your making me choose? I mean, ill always be a supporter of the Young Wolf. But I love the campaign of Stannis and Balon too, and of Joff.... Not Renly lol)

11. NW (I respect the hell out of Mance, but bringing down the Wall is not a viable option, Mance knew that but still wanted it)

12. Roose. (Im not betting against Ramsay)

13. Dany (duh lol)

14. Euron (hands down)

15. Ummm.... Sansa?? Final king? Why not one out of the 3 queens?

Quote

. . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear."

Like, how is the undisputed queen of asoiaf not on your list, Cersei the great? Im still choosing Sansa. (If i cant pick 2 outta of the 3 then I guess im picking the 3rd, Dany.... Though shout out to Jon, Stannis and Euron)

[Iris Purpurea]

Nice question! Here are my answers, I won't elaborate because honestly I can't remember exactly why I prefer some over others.

1. Aegon
2. Dorne
3. Aenys
4. Targs
5. Rhaenys
6. Blacks
7. The Martells
8. Targaryen
9. Loyalists
10. Renly
11. Wildlings
12. Stannis
13. Dany
14. Asha
15. Erm hard one.. but I think Dany has the best claim.

[Lion of the West]

8 hours ago, frenin said:

 

This is interesting why do you support them??

EDITED: You know, what, you made some really good points that I find myself unable to refute. So I guess I'm switching sides to the Dornish and the Martells.

[frenin]

25 minutes ago, Lion of the West said:

As said by @Alyn Oakenfist why should Dorne be treated any differently than say the Ironmen given both kingdoms' inclination raiding?

Because that inclination doesn't really exist, it's more of a bad blood between two borders and those raidings went in both directions back in the day. The Iron Islands however live for raid and raid for live.

There have been 3 raids that we know of during the Targ reign, 2 Vulture Kings and the Aliandra Martell. 3 raids in 200 years, that's a pretty bad excuse.

25 minutes ago, Lion of the West said:

And if its a positive thing for the Targaryens to step in and end the endless wars between the Westerlands, Reach, Stormlands etc. why is it less of a positive thing for the Targaryens to step in to end the wars between Dorne and the Reach and Stormlands?

Because two can't fight if one does not want to. Dorne is not going to look for a war, Morion aside, with a united south, especially if they have dragons. There was no necessity for the Targs to step in because there was no problem in the first place. 

 

25 minutes ago, Lion of the West said:

You can argue that the common Dornishmen kept fighting the king's men, well, when did we start to count popular jingoist nationalism as a proof of morale high ground?

Because it tells us about them and their determination as a country because Dorne is not a feudal kingdom as the other, bar one could say the Iron Islands and the North, Dorne is a country. And in what world their nationalism can be considered jingoist?? They were the ones defending themselves from genocidal megalomaniacs who wanted to subdued because they were the master race. The imperialist country was Westeros, not Dorne.

 

Why should anyone be sympathetic with colonized countries  that try to break free from a yoke??

25 minutes ago, Lion of the West said:

The fact that common Dornishmen would so eagerly want to keep wars and violence going speaks more against them than in their favor.

Why?? Because they don't like colonization??

 

 

25 minutes ago, Lion of the West said:

Hence I am squarly in the favor of the Iron Throne.

I see.

[Lion of the West]

EDITED: I changed my mind.

[Tygett Lannister]

20 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

 

1. The Conquest: Aegon or the Kings? 8 - 8
2. The Dornish War: The Iron Throne or Dorne? 4 - 11
3. Maegor or Aenys? 2 - 11
4. The Faith militant uprising: Targs or the Faith? 10 - 5
5. The Council of 101: Rhaenys, Laenor or Viserys? 13 - 1 - 1
6. The Dance: Greens or Blacks? 4 - 11
7. The Second Dornish War: Daeron or the Martells? 4 - 8
8. The Blackfyre Rebellion: Blackfyre or Targaryen? 1 - 14
9. Roberts Rebellion: Loyalists or rebels? 4 - 12
10. War of the Five Kings: Stannis, Robb, Balon, Joffrey or Renly? 5 - 9 - 0 - 1 - 1
11. Mance's attack: Wildlings or NW? 6 - 8
12. War in the North, Stannis or Roose? 13 - 2
13. Slaver's Bay campaign: Dany or the Slavers? 15 - 0 (okay this is kinda pointless, but still)
14. Kingsmoot: Asha, Victarion, Euron or Farwynd? 12 - 2 - 0 - 2
15. The final kings: Stannis, Aegon, Jon, Dany, Tommen or Euron? 2 - 2 - 2 - 6 - 1 - 0

1. Kings
2. Dornish
3. /
4. Targs
5. /
6. /
7. Martells
8. Blackfyre
9. Rebels
10. Renly
11. Wildlings
12. Stannis
13. Slavers
14. Vicatrion
15. Aegon

/ means that I don't support anybody or just don't know much about it to decide. Yeah I support Slavers because things obviously went downhill for the majority since Dany took over, she can't handle the situation, it is kinda similar to NATO starting civil wars against middle eastern dictators leading to chaos and destroyed countries.

[Morte]

22 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So I was curious what are the various sides people on this forum support in the history of Westeros. I'll put the results on the right of each one as they get updated, also now that more people voted I''m gonna put my own opinions here too:

1. The Conquest: Aegon or the Kings? 8 - 8
2. The Dornish War: The Iron Throne or Dorne? 4 - 11
3. Maegor or Aenys? 2 - 11
4. The Faith militant uprising: Targs or the Faith? 10 - 5
5. The Council of 101: Rhaenys, Laenor or Viserys? 13 - 1 - 1
6. The Dance: Greens or Blacks? 4 - 11
7. The Second Dornish War: Daeron or the Martells? 4 - 8
8. The Blackfyre Rebellion: Blackfyre or Targaryen? 1 - 14
9. Roberts Rebellion: Loyalists or rebels? 4 - 12
10. War of the Five Kings: Stannis, Robb, Balon, Joffrey or Renly? 5 - 9 - 0 - 1 - 1
11. Mance's attack: Wildlings or NW? 6 - 8
12. War in the North, Stannis or Roose? 13 - 2
13. Slaver's Bay campaign: Dany or the Slavers? 15 - 0 (okay this is kinda pointless, but still)
14. Kingsmoot: Asha, Victarion, Euron or Farwynd? 12 - 2 - 0 - 2
15. The final kings: Stannis, Aegon, Jon, Dany, Tommen or Euron? 2 - 2 - 2 - 6 - 1 - 0

1. Aegon

2. duh, don't know enough about Dorne of that time (they seem to be more decent than the other kingdoms), but for consistence - Throne

3. Aenys

4. Targs, obviously

5. Rhaenys

6. Black

7. Martells, because by then it would have been possible to actually get Dorne to join without bloodshed, as it did happen just a little later

8. Targaryen

9. Can I vote Council? But then, Council is more loyalists, me thinks

10. none

11. Night Watch

12. can we solve that by single combat and the winner is beheaded?

13. Dany

14. Asha

15. Dany

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

And yet for some reason people are pissed with the Ironmen's raiding. Better to end it now and let it be over than let it continue forever more.

Because the Ironmen raiding was endemic, this isn't. 

 

3 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

A better excuse than what Aegon had for the rest of Westeros.

Which was  none just as in this case, you can't, or well you shouldn't, excuse Aegon's war with events that happen years, decades or even centuries after his death.

 

3 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

There was the same amount of problem as with the rest of Westeros. And last I recall the Dornish were kind of active.

And the rest of Westeros was submitted, Dorne wasn't.

Sure, during the Vulture Kings and Morion after that nothing until Aliandra and then Daeron's conquest.

 

3 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

What do you base it on that the Targaryens were genocidal, as in trying to destroy the Dornish culture or people, that the Targaryens saw Dornish as lesser than them from a biological/race perspective or that Westeros sought to create colonies in Dorne?

No, I'm basing  my claim in that the Targs deliberately tried to mass murder Dorne into submission. Now according to the international law, genocide implies. 

.. any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

 Aegon tried to destroy the Dornish into submission which means that he did intent to destroy a national and ethnical group. And he checks in A,B,C.But if you prefer i can just say mass murderer.

 

One Dornish knight, brought before Queen Visenya as a captive, insisted that Meria Martell would sooner see her people dead than slaves to House Targaryen. Visenya replied that she and her brother would be glad to oblige the princess.

Genocidal intent

 

And about colonialism control by one power over a dependent area or people.

Aegon was going to exploit them, both economically and if needed be militarily, no one in Dorne was happy with the submission and Aegon needed to leave an army behind him.

The Targs do see themselves as the master race and not just superior to the Dornish but to everyone.

 

Quote

This seems to be attempts to use guilt by association between the Targaryens and Westerosi to the aweful evils of RL colonialism and Nazism in order to build an argument.

I don't need that for them to be evil, Aegon massacred a nation because said nation did not want him as King and he could not accept that, you can't be more awful than that.  

[dbergkvist]

48 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

/ means that I don't support anybody or just don't know much about it to decide. Yeah I support Slavers because things obviously went downhill for the majority since Dany took over, she can't handle the situation, it is kinda similar to NATO starting civil wars against middle eastern dictators leading to chaos and destroyed countries.

I think there is a very big difference between Slaver's bay and the real world, in that GRRM has clearly chosen the situation in Slaver's bay in order to drive the story in the direction he wants, which does not happen in the real world. GRRM decided that slavers, and their entire culture, should be maximally and irredeemably evil, and the cities are made to not have any other possible source of income than slavery, and so on. This makes it difficult to say that Dany should or shouldn't have acted differently.

If the situation was realistic, maybe The Iron Bank, who have lots of money and who hate slavery, could have helped convert the cities into trade hubs (where they would trade with goods instead of people), so no violence would have been needed? But the plot seems to require that Dany learns to "become a dragon", so The Iron Bank are absent in this one region of the world.

[dbergkvist]

6 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I don't know about him, but I too support Aegon due to what we discussed previously. Aegon was just uniting the Kingdoms, in let's be fair a very bloodless conquest. I mean the massive field of fire only had 4k dead. The lives lost in the conquest were more then made up by those saved due to the existence of a united Westeros.

Westerosi historians are claiming that prior to Aegon's conquest, there were always at least two kingdoms at war with each other at any given point in time. But can we trust that, or is that just propaganda to justify the conquest? It's not like Westeros has freedom of speech and an independent academia.

[Tygett Lannister]

22 minutes ago, dbergkvist said:

I think there is a very big difference between Slaver's bay and the real world, in that GRRM has clearly chosen the situation in Slaver's bay in order to drive the story in the direction he wants, which does not happen in the real world. GRRM decided that slavers, and their entire culture, should be maximally and irredeemably evil, and the cities are made to not have any other possible source of income than slavery, and so on. This makes it difficult to say that Dany should or shouldn't have acted differently.

If the situation was realistic, maybe The Iron Bank, who have lots of money and who hate slavery, could have helped convert the cities into trade hubs (where they would trade with goods instead of people), so no violence would have been needed? But the plot seems to require that Dany learns to "become a dragon", so The Iron Bank are absent in this one region of the world.

One of the main themes of the entire book series is that there is no black and white (bad or good) but every character and goverment in grey. Cities have income from other sources but they are a slave based society which existed in real life. Dany breaks this society and expects everyone will adapt to the new rule instantly and disregards that certain slaves just want to remain slaves. Slaves are mostly treated poorly by their masters but there are examples in the book where slaves are completely happy and not mistreated by their owners. Cities that she leaves soon become slave based again either with old slaver masters or former slaves become the new slave masters (Soviet Union is good comparison for this case).

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Lion of the West said:

EDITED: I changed my mind.

I don't know if you wrote that either because you indeed changed your mindor because you're tired of arguing, but i do think that there is nothing wrong with your idea, just wanted to know why and things got heated