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Martell Spy

U.S. Politics: Self Medicating

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I haven't had much to say about the Biden gaffe, but this talk about Obama and 2008 made me realize that I haven't heard Dems talk much about what their vision is for the near term and how they'll rebuild the country after kicking out Trump.

I'm worried that Biden will make the same mistakes Obama did in the aftermath of the GFC. I heard Biden on a talk show recently saying that he would appoint Republicans to his Cabinet. I can't think of a single Republican that I would want in his Cabinet. Democrats, if they win the Presidency and the Senate, need to be prepared to consolidate power. I'm not convinced that there's a plan to do so.

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4 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I haven't had much to say about the Biden gaffe, but this talk about Obama and 2008 made me realize that I haven't heard Dems talk much about what their vision is for the near term and how they'll rebuild the country after kicking out Trump.

I'm worried that Biden will make the same mistakes Obama did in the aftermath of the GFC. I heard Biden on a talk show recently saying that he would appoint Republicans to his Cabinet. I can't think of a single Republican that I would want in his Cabinet. Democrats, if they win the Presidency and the Senate, need to be prepared to consolidate power. I'm not convinced that there's a plan to do so.

Eh. The whole cross-cabinet thing is meaningless. It's the kind of thing that still sounds good to certain voters, so why not say it? I'm sure Biden could find some harmless anti-Trump retired Republican congressman to be Commerce Secretary or something. 

Pre-Trump, it was normal to have one cabinet Secretary from the opposite party. Obama had Robert Gates and Chuck Hagel; Bush had Norman Mineta; Clinton had William Cohen; H.W. Bush had Lauro Cavazos; Reagan had William Bennett; and so on back all the way to FDR naming a Republican as Treasury Secretary in 1933. Gerald Ford was the only president since who didn't have at least one; until Trump.

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17 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I'm worried that Biden will make the same mistakes Obama did in the aftermath of the GFC. I heard Biden on a talk show recently saying that he would appoint Republicans to his Cabinet. I can't think of a single Republican that I would want in his Cabinet. Democrats, if they win the Presidency and the Senate, need to be prepared to consolidate power. I'm not convinced that there's a plan to do so.

This is one of my pet peeves as a typical non-falsifiable complaint that a candidate should have "more vision."  More vision to do what exactly?  What precisely is Biden supposed to be pushing that he isn't - and why would articulating such a plan actually enhance its chances of success?  The response is usually "well that's not my job to figure out," which I guess is fair, but it dismisses the fact that those whose job it is would love to emphasize some strategy that would ensure more policy outcome success once taking power - if only it existed. 

And, like Fez said, saying you'll appoint a GOP cabinet member is a gesture that can only help him with voters.  And so is actually doing it.  There's plenty of departments where you can place a nominal Republican at the top of with minimal, if any, actual policymaking harm done. 

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No, that's bullshit. If Biden wins, and Democrats take the Senate, Republicans will launch an obstruction campaign that will make their GFC obstructionism look tame, and they'll be doing it during the likely 2nd wave of a pandemic which will probably be worse than the one we just experienced. They'll be doing with double digit unemployment and a possible depression. I think it's not beyond the pale to ask what Dems plan to do to counter that. Pack the courts? Abolish the filibuster? We need to know.

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On 5/23/2020 at 12:37 AM, Tywin et al. said:

Oh, also, the guy who voiced the character who I believe has the greatest arc ever in anime wrote me a little message when he signed my poster at an event when I was a kid. I still have the thing framed, somewhere.

Sorry to throw back to the off topic conversation, but...Dante Basco?

7 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

Saying the problem is with the voters instead of the candidate is a good way to carry moral certitude into a long period of political powerlessness.

I think it's fair to say that the problem is with Bernie for why he couldn't convince more voters, however I do think there is a point to be made that the problem is with voters that from a large field which included a great many better options than Biden the voters still picked Biden. My answer to this would not be any reduction in democracy though, please don't parse it that way. And I suspect the reason why is already answered in this thread, the overwhelming fear of more Trump pushed people to pick who they felt was the safest bet. I disagree with them, but that perception of safeness is self reinforcing in this case.

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2 hours ago, Triskele said:

This is very interesting, and I suspect where you're coming from is the whole "During Obama the Dems lost X number of state houses, etc..."

I have seen some of the arguments as to why this is a fair criticism, but I think there's a counterargument that doesn't get enough attention which is the cyclical nature of our politics combined with the ratfucking of 2010.  

Was it Obama's fault that the GOP had a massive year in 2010?  I hardly think so.  I think that a lot of 2008 voters thought the work was done which sucks plus then the very fired up GOP base to vote in those midterms like crazy.  Did anyone see the evil genius ratfucking of 2010 for future years coming before that election?  Probably not, but would it have mattered one bit if they had?  

Given that Obama will won re-election and in decently handy fashion in 2012 the fact that they lost so much at the lower levels feels a bit like the work of greater forces.  

Did the Dems have a genius strategy in the 2018 midterms or was it kinda sort the inverse of 2010?  The latter seems likelier to me.  

So to summarize I think that "Obama led the Dems so poorly," while I'm not saying there's nothing there, I think is also a bit of a huge bit of circumstance in that the GOP was always virtually guaranteed to have a big 2010 and then they ratfucked that particular year to great advantage which paid dividends for years after.  On the latter, that is not newly-elected Obama's job to deal with.  

 

Fair points. It's true that the first term midterm often serves as a correction against the president. I can forgive 2010 but wow what a scale of a loss and it just never stopped.  What happened in the early twenty teens goes well beyond correction. I think part of the problem was he never saw the opposition's true colors and was never willing to risk his legacy it it meant playing with brass knuckles.

Your post reminded me of the night Obama won reelection and I can vividly remember Maddow's smug face as the returns came in. She was so chipper. Meanwhile all I wanted to know is how MI state returns went. Not good. Republicans still controlled the legislature. Right to work laws soon passed. Flint would soon be poisoned. But Obama won a second term so liberal world was supposed to be overjoyed. Never mind that Congress hadnt changed and nothing of consequence would pass for four years.

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5 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I think it's not beyond the pale to ask what Dems plan to do to counter that. Pack the courts? Abolish the filibuster? We need to know.

I don't think it'd be useful to advocate packing the courts or abolishing the filibuster during a campaign.  Even if that's what you plan to do (and I'd disagree with abolishing the filibuster), that's not going to help you get votes.  Nor are any other institutional mechanisms one could possibly employ to circumvent GOP obstructionism.  This demand seems to be asking Biden to campaign as if he's already governing, which is just generally a horrible campaign strategy for any non-incumbent.

3 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I do think there is a point to be made that the problem is with voters that from a large field which included a great many better options than Biden the voters still picked Biden.

Time to break this out again..

 

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

I don't think it'd be useful to advocate packing the courts or abolishing the filibuster during a campaign.  Even if that's what you plan to do (and I'd disagree with abolishing the filibuster), that's not going to help you get votes.  Nor are any other institutional mechanisms one could possibly employ to circumvent GOP obstructionism.  This demand seems to be asking Biden to campaign as if he's already governing, which is just generally a horrible campaign strategy for any non-incumbent.

Time to break this out again..

 

Well right now, Biden seems to think he'll be able to just Uncle Joe everyone into going along. I'm not convinced that he doesn't actually believe that. 

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7 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Sorry to throw back to the off topic conversation, but...Dante Basco?

Sabat, voice of Vegeta, the Prince of all Saiyans. 

It's so weird to listen to a group of voice actors play out a scene in person........

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17 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Well right now, Biden seems to think he'll be able to just Uncle Joe everyone into going along. I'm not convinced that he doesn't actually believe that. 

I mean, in general do I think Biden could be more aggressive in his criticism of Trump and the GOP in general?  I suppose there's a valid argument there, but so too is the strategy right now of standing back and letting Trump self-destruct all on his own.  But coming out for any institutional changes not only wouldn't help Biden electorally right now, it would most certainly hurt down-ballot ballot races.  You think Mark Kelly or John Hickenlooper or Sara Gideon or Cal Cunningham or Steve Bullock want to have to respond the their party's nominee advocating abolishing the filibuster or packing the courts if they get elected?  It would play terribly in their states, and in doing so would be a self-defeating strategy in that the Senate would be unobtainable - even if Biden won.  The same goes for the 31 Dem-held districts Trump won in 2016 that need to be defended.  Not saying Biden is running a perfect campaign by any means, and certainly any alternatives are worth considering, but I just don't see much specifically Biden should be doing that he isn't already.

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What is more, why announce things that may hurt you when it may not even be relevant?  Dems need to win the senate before abolishing the filibuster is even relevant.  Raising that now, allowing you to be attacked on it, and then only getting to 49 seats would be pretty embarrassing.  

I've seen plenty of campaigns fail because details of policies or plans were released, which allowed the other side to emphasise just specific elements, often taken out of context.  Less information is often a good move. 

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I appreciate the confidence that the Biden ticket will lift up the vote down ballot and lead to a take over of the Senate. Fingers crossed!

That said, it feels like counting one's chickens before they're hatched. Until Biden wins and until the Senate falls into the hands of the Democrats, I don't want his opinion on the filibuster, I don't want his opinion on packing the court, and any other pie-in-the-sky thing that needs a bunch of other things to happen before it's worth discussing them.

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Worth noting that Biden has publicly stated his positions on ending the filibuster and court packing (he's against them):

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/10/14/20910445/2020-democratic-debates-climate-change-filibuster

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/voting-changes/supreme-court-packing/

But these aren't the only issues where Biden could be making a more aggressive case. I'd argue they're not electoral winners or losers, most voters will have little understanding of either issue. But I think something like advocating for handing out a lot more free money to people, as many Democrats now support, would be both good politics and good policy. 

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Posted (edited)

I'm not sure how Biden's plan to Uncle Joe Republicans into submission is any less pie-in-the-sky than court-packing or filibuster reform, but YMMV. 

At this point, anything anyone says about "returning to normal" is just an admission that they don't have a plan, because they haven't come to the realization that there is no "normal" left for us to return to.

Edited by The Great Unwashed

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Posted (edited)

I see the Twit-in-Chief is celebrating the weekend with golf and twitter rage. And to think he was outraged that Obama went golfing after they found two ebola cases in the US.

Edited by Fragile Bird

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Posted (edited)

Trump expected to broaden foreign worker bans
The president has already barred many foreign workers during the coronavirus pandemic, but he is facing pressure from conservatives to go further.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/25/trump-broaden-foreign-worker-bans-276510

Quote

 

President Donald Trump is expected to extend and expand restrictions on foreign workers coming into the United States during the coronavirus pandemic, aiming to appease a frustrated political base as Americans try to return to work.

Immigration hardliners have been lobbying Trump to take the step, which would broaden an April executive order that barred several categories of foreign workers from entering the country for a temporary period. They argue that the directive didn’t go far enough, given the skyrocketing unemployment rate and an election only months away.

But the expected expansion risks angering business leaders who insist foreign workers are still needed, even with so many Americans out of work, to keep vital industries staffed.

 


 

Trump’s Economic Adviser Calls Americans Facing Unemployment ‘Human Capital Stock’
In the interview with CNN, Kevin Hassett failed to mention that American workers would be risking their lives if there’s a second COVID-19 spike.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kevin-hasset-economy-human-capital-stock_n_5ecb395fc5b61967c333b309

Quote

 

President Donald Trump’s senior economic adviser, Kevin Hassett, presented a cold view of the U.S. economic system Sunday, referring to American workers as “human capital stock.”

In a Sunday interview on CNN, Hassett predicted that business would pick up again soon.

“Our human capital stock is ready to get back to work,” he said, while admitting at the same time that the nation will continue to struggle with unemployment as high as 23% this month.

The smiling Hassett seemed blithely calm about an unemployment rate “north of 20%” in May, which may be higher in June and will likely be in the double digits by November, he said.

 

 

Edited by Martell Spy

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3 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

“Our human capital stock is ready to get back to work,” he said, while admitting at the same time that the nation will continue to struggle with unemployment as high as 23% this month.

Not when it is dead. But there's always more of it from the same place the previous stock came from.

That is exactly what we are to them, stock to be used as they see fit, killed when they see fit, fed if they see fit.  It used to be called slavery and it was practiced exactly like this and used the same language.

In the Brit papers there is some discussion that this catastrophe may bring back the 'feudal order' for work.  Here in the US we just skip right to slavery.

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20 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yeah I'm sure most if not all of you don't mean it the way it sounds, but the gist of the last few pages seems to be "Black Democrat voters aren't smart enough to vote as they should, lets dismiss the whole thing were they all voted for Biden".

I kind of see this argument  but I think it quickly falls apart, it's not like Biden was the only candidate to get black support.  Younger rblack voters seemed to be either split or prefer Sanders.  And in this particular issue this seems an especially strange claim to make, considering the context of Biden's response.  Here's Charlemagne about it afterwards:

Quote

Charlamagne told Stephen Colbert this past February. “I just got questions. I got the same questions that everybody else has….I would want to know about the ‘94 crime bill… I would also want to know why he can’t simply apologize for making a mistake.” 

Biden has since apologized for the “you ain’t black” remark, saying “I should not have been so cavalier. I’ve never, never, ever taken the African American community for granted.” But he still hasn’t meaningfully addressed Charlamagne’s questions, taking for granted that he doesn’t need to to secure our votes. “The apology is cool,” Charlamagne said Sunday on Joy-Ann Reid’s MSNBC show, “but the best apology is actually a black agenda. . . When you have Black people who have the nerve, the audacity, the unmitigated gall to act like citizens and demand something of our votes it’s a problem? You’ve got whites telling us to stay in our place and you got Black people saying ‘oh stop, now is not the time. You’re gonna get Trump re-elected.’ It has to come to a point where we stop putting the burden on Black voters to show up for Democrats and start putting the burden on Democrats to show up for Black voters

From here, and yes, full disclosure that this is written by Briahna Joy Gray, a Sanders' surrogate and comms director.

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I was glad to see a photo of Biden laying a Memorial Day wreath -- and wearing a mask.  For finally coming out, this was a right choice and right move.

 

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6 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

I see the Twit-in-Chief is celebrating the weekend with golf and twitter rage. And to think he was outraged that Obama went golfing after they found two ebola cases in the US.

BIRD!,

I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Shuffle closer. Closer. Even closer. Now listen up, because I need to whisper this.

One of them was black. When he was golfing, he was being lazy. But Donald's fat ass? He was exercising. 

Shuffle away, BIRD! 

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