What is the Great Stone Beast?

[chrisdaw]

Euron is experimenting and Falia is a trial run in recreating what Dany did, but Euron is not trying to take Dany's place in the procedure, he is trying to take Drogo's, hence all the grouping with Drogo in all the relevant HOTU visions. Falia is in Dany's place, as GRRM himself draws the comparison by having Falia say Dany and she are to be like sisters. He's using Aeron in his stead (same blood as his own, sam as Falia's child) for this trial run because obviously he can only sacrifice himself the once.

It is going to work, with a leviathan instead of a dragon, as suits the blood and the location, Aeron is going to second life a leviathan (with Falia) and that is what the Drowned God's watery halls refer to.

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

What I meant was that stone dragons, waking dragons from stone, are directly associated with the AA prophecy. Mel wants Stannis to give her Edric Storm to burn so that she can wake the stone dragon.

Sure, and it seems that the stone beast breathing shadow fire might be some sort of fake or monstrous dragon. But it could also be merely the symbolic representation of the person - as the shadowless king is Stannis and the cloth dragon Aegon. Euron would only want to wake dragons from stone if he wanted to play the role of the promised prince. Which I doubt he will.

Perhaps we are going to learn that Euron's inner representation of his status as potential greenseer is not a chained wolf like Bran but a stone beast which will take wing in TWoW in the sense that whatever rituals and spells he works fully open his third eye. Then him 'taking wing and breathing shadow fire' could be the moment when he actually becomes a real greenseer or at least a twisted version of that - like Bran started to fly after his chains were broken. Which I think he will due to his enormous consumption of shade of the evening.

17 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Whatever Euron manages to do, I think he will draw people to his cause regardless. And I think this will be the catalyst to Shireen's sacrifice (which is completely off topic).

All I think we can say about the Shireen thing is that this will have to do something with Stannis in a desperate situation further down the road - stabilizing the spells in the Wall, prevent the Others from breaching it, something along those lines.

17 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

That said, Euron is going to be a formidable adversary for Bran and anyone fighting against him. I think he's being set up as the champion of the Others in any case. 

I don't think he'll intentionally or unintentionally ally with them ... but he is a monstrous person. He doesn't care about people at all, and will use anything that weakens his enemies to his advantage. And considering his powers we can expect him to believe till the very end that he actually has the power to crush the Others no matter what they throw at him. For him it is not going to be a problem that half or two thirds of the Westerosi become wights. He'll crush the Others no matter what, clean up the mess afterwards, and take what he wants.

And depending how well he plays his potential allies chances are that many people are going to believe in him, especially when things get worse and worse because, like Thoros in the Riverlands, he will have real magical/divine powers.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 5/21/2020 at 6:21 PM, King Adrian Storm said:

One of the 3 lies that Dany has to slay from the HOTU. "A great stone beast takes flight from a smoking tower, and breathes shadow fire" (paraphrasing).

I have 4 different ideas of what the stone beast could be:

1. Greyscale- This could be Jon Connington spreading greyscale in kingslanding. The shadow fire being metaphorical for the spreading of greyscale.

2. Euron- The other 2 lies, Stannis and Aegon are claimants to the throne, so it would make sense that the 3rd be Euron. Maybe he steals one of Dany's Dragons. The shadow fire having something to do with his magical abilities.

3. Tyrion- The great stone beast could be referring to a gargoyle, or greyscale growing from inside of him. We have heard many times, that Tyrion casts a large shadow.

4. Jon- Him being ressurected by burning Shireen could make him a "Stone beast". But I don't think Jon could be one of the lies, since he's probabally R+L=J.

All quite possible. I"ve read good arguments for each of them. 

On 5/22/2020 at 7:24 PM, Damon_Tor said:

There's only one explanation I'm aware of that accounts for every word of the stanza.

I decided to work backwards from the prophecy, specifically looking for past events that could be a smoking tower, and naturally Harrenhal was the standout. Since we know that the line of House Hoare survived the burning of Harrenhal at least up to Harren the Red, one wonders if the prophecy is about the survival of their bloodline: to this end, one can easily find a "Stone beast taking wing" in the continuing story of Harrenhal. House Lothston has a winged beast for a sigil) and their name appears to mean "hateful stone". Notably, "Lothston" does not appear to be a real surname: it is entirely the invention of GRRM, so one has to wonder how much thought was put into it and why.

As for shadow fire, consider that the Blackfyre Rebellion was only possible because Aegon IV indulged his lusts, and that behavior appears to have been enabled by Lucas Lothston, who became known to history as "The Pander" which is another word for a pimp. How much was Lucas responsible for Aegon IV becoming the man he would become? If he was indeed "The Pander" did he do more than arrange for his wife and daughter to bed the king? Did he arrange other trysts? And of course this pandering is what allowed Lucas Lothston to take Harrenhal for himself, and House Lothston would hold Harrenhal longer than any other, seemingly immune to whatever "curse" had driven previous holders into extinction.

And it's likely the bloodline continues beyond the death of the last Lothston: when Danelle Lothston fell out of favor (supposedly there was some Dracula nonsense going on, but who knows how true that was) Harrenhal went to House Whent, knights in service of House Lothston. Notably, Whent's sigil is a modification of Lothston's, which usually means the lesser house is a cadet branch of the greater.

So who do we know who are descendants of house Whent in our story? Why, Catelyn Stark and all her children of course. And one of those children is currently pretending to be the only daughter of the current Lord of Harrenhal, putting her in a very interesting position in regard to that castle. And what is that daughter currently calling herself? Alayne Stone. And there is a very strange dream she has where she is both a wolf and a bat. Not a fish, the Tully sigil, a bat, the sigil of the Whents and Lothstons. The stone beast takes wing.

So the question is, why is this relevant: even if we assume that this is true, that the blood of House Hoare lives on in house Whent and thus in Sansa, why does Daenerys have to slay this particular lie? Why does it matter if a descendant of House Hoare is Lady of Harrenhal?

One of the great mysteries of the story is what happened to the dragons? Why did they stop hatching? There are rumors the Citadel or the Faith of the Seven poisoned the dragons, but that's never been confirmed, and it wouldn't explain why no Targaryen was able to hatch new ones for so, so long. But interestingly, there are a few dates that closely align and raise some eyebrows: the last living dragon died only three years after Lucas Lothston took possession of Harrenhal, and Daenerys was able to hatch her dragons after the last Whent was driven from the castle during the War of the Five Kings. Other dates which align perfectly: Aegon the Conqueror decided to conquer Westeros the very same day Harren Hoare took up residence inside the castle. And of course the loss of dragons coincides with the loss of magic. Did magic die because dragons died, or did dragons die because magic did? Unclear, but SOMETHING caused this, and an enduring mystery of the series is: what?

Rumors abound that Harrenhall was built of atrocities: rafters cut from Heart Trees, human blood mixed into the mortar. And yet we hear nothing of Harrenhal possessing magical power, except, I suppose, the rumored curse which drove everyone (except, it seems, Lothstons and Whents) from it. Is it possible Harrenhal was built with a specific purpose, a weapon against Dragons, or perhaps against magic in general? Perhaps this magic only works when someone with Hoare's blood holds lordship over the castle: this would explain why the dragons flourished while Harrenhal passed from house to house then died when Lothston took posession and returned when Whent lost it. If Sansa becomes Lady of Harrenhal, which seems possible, would this anti-dragon magic reactivate? Will Daenerys "feel" this threat to her dragons like Aegon seemed to?

In any case, it's easy to see how this would create a threat for Daenerys.

Hmm... If the shadow fite is Blackfyre, then the stone beast could be Jon Connington, a griffin. 

[dialt]

The triplet is about people who believe to be Azor Ahai.
And I agree that it doesn’t matter if Aegon is a fake or not. The point is just that he’s not Azor Ahai / the PtwP.

The stone dragon is about Euron. Whatever sorcery he’s practicing in Old Town, that would result in the stone dragon. Still a “fake” just like Stannis’ Lightbringer.

Overall the pattern I see is

- Daughter (figurative) of death (keyword): 3 dead princes with Targaryen blood

- Slayer (figurative) of lies (keyword): 3 false prince that was promised 

- Bride (figurative) of Fire (keyword): 3 Targaryen princes/princesses (herself, Aemon, Jon).

Aemon dies. But because of his last words to Sam, Dany will start to understand what this PtwP thing is about. Not seizing the throne or ruling (1st triplet) not about being a divine ruler per se (2nd triplet) but about the fight vs the Others.

[Bowen Marsh]

On 5/22/2020 at 12:50 PM, Morte said:

Agree.

A griffin is a winged beast (the prophesy never talked about a stone dragon, just a beast); JonCon is the greatest of the living griffins, Kevan thinks he should be a capable field commander by now, and the task he has set himself is not a small one, so it would fit...

And Daenerys will certainly know a dragon if she sees one in the vision.  The fact that the creature is described as a beast is significant.  A large beast, breathing false fire.  A false dragon.  Someone trying to pass themselves as a dragon.  The frauds are Stannis, Aegon, and Jon.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 5/22/2020 at 7:33 AM, Megorova said:

(2.3. distant past, Jon's birth. Jon is the stone dragon that Dany will awake. The lie that she will slay is that he is Ned Stark's bastard.) From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . .

If Dany "will awake" the stone dragon, then the vision takes place in the future rather than the past. Jon's birth doesn't seem like "a stone beast taking wing, breathing shadow fire".

[Morte]

9 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

And Daenerys will certainly know a dragon if she sees one in the vision.  The fact that the creature is described as a beast is significant.

Agree. I don't understand why everyone is talking about a stone dragon, than Dany doesn't see one, but a beast - imho it points to the thing being something else, not a dragon.

[Malgoth]

My ex-girlfriend used to call that my member, but now I know that she did it in very sarcastic manner.

Oh, you asking about the books? Well, it's probably has something to do with already mentioned by Melisandre stone dragon, which is supposedly has to come to life. Perhaps, after the sacrifice of Shireen, who has a greyscale, result with be that  a "Great Stone Beast". 

[Megorova]

8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

On 5/22/2020 at 3:33 PM, Megorova said:

(2.3. distant past, Jon's birth. Jon is the stone dragon that Dany will awake. The lie that she will slay is that he is Ned Stark's bastard.) From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . .

If Dany "will awake" the stone dragon, then the vision takes place in the future rather than the past. Jon's birth doesn't seem like "a stone beast taking wing, breathing shadow fire".

Dany will awake "stone dragon" in the future, but this has nothing to do with the vision about Slayer of lies. The vision is not about awakening of that stone dragon, it's about his birth. I just explained why that stone beast is Jon - because he's the last Targaryen dragon/prince, he's living a life of lie, he doesn't know who he really is, thus he is a dormant dragon, the last dragon that Dany will awake from stone (not knowing his real origin makes his life restricted/petrified, or something like that. Slaying a lie that he's a bastard will make him free/he will "awake" as a Targaryen/dragon. Or that stone beast is a metaphor about chimeras. Chimera is a hybrid-being, a mix of spicies. For example, Jon, who is half-Stark and half-Targaryen, is half-direwolf and half-dragon, or winged wolf (with leather not feather wings). All gargoyles are chimeras. According to folklore gargoyles are magic beasts that during daylight are petrified, and become alive only in the darkness/at night. So, Jon is a chimera that is living in darkness/in secrets).

The lie about distant past is that Jon is Ned Stark's bastard. That vision depicts a lie about Jon's birth*. Smoking tower is, most likely, a Tower of Joy. Though it's not a fact that Jon was born there (I think that he was born at Starfall, under the "bleeding stars", at the site where prior First Long Night fell meteorite from which, in my opinion, was forged Dawn of Daynes/Azor Ahai's Lightbringer. I.e. Daynes are descendants of first Azor Ahai, and Dawn is Lightbringer, while Jon is bloodrelated to Daynes thru Egg's/Aegon V's mother, Dyanna Dayne. So, Jon is a Dayne (about 1/8. Robert Baratheon was 1/16 Targaryen, and that was enough to claim their crown), and he's going to become the Sword of the Morning). *Could be that the Tower of Joy is the place where was "born"/created a lie about Jon's origin. The tower is smoking because it's where was created a "smoke screen" that hid Jon's origin from the rest of the world. Starting from then began the beast's/Jon's "fly"/life, while breathing shadow fire/living in secrets /hiding in shadows/living a life of lie.

That lie was created/told to people in a distant past. The lie about Stannis-Azor-Ahai-reborn was created in recent past. The lie about fAegon-Rhaegar's-son will be created in future, when his people will be telling people of 7K that fAegon is the rightful heir of Iron Throne, and that he came to Westeros to save them from Cersei, Euron, Stannis, etc.

So, that vision is definitely about the past event.

[Shi Qiang]

Jon will need to contract Greyscale to become the stone beast.  He is just pure Ice otherwise.  So purely ice that I give credit to those who believe he is the son of Brandon and Lyanna.  Stark on both sides.  The only grey about him is his eyes.  He is more north than his siblings.  More Stark than any of his family.  His wolf is more north and more savage.  Jon is the north.  The future King of the North, King of the Night.  The Nights King in every sense of the word.  He is the corpse king.  He will accomplish what Robb failed to do.  Take the north away from the kingdoms ruled by the Iron Throne.  That is indeed treason. 

Fire is power.  Shadow power in this case.  Dark powers.  What the beast has is not real fire but the power of darkness.  A power that does not bring light but instead brings the darkness.  Jon will help bring on that darkness.

 

19 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

And Daenerys will certainly know a dragon if she sees one in the vision.  The fact that the creature is described as a beast is significant.  A large beast, breathing false fire.  A false dragon.  Someone trying to pass themselves as a dragon.  The frauds are Stannis, Aegon, and Jon.

 

[Frey family reunion]

Very early on we're given a distinction between dragons and beasts:

Quote

“Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men. ”

And while dragons have been referred to as beasts, by far the creature most commonly referred to as a beast in the series is the direwolf.  Starting from very early on:

Quote

His father knelt and groped under the beast's head with his hand.  He gave a yank and helt it up for all to see.  A foot of shattered antler, tines snapped off, all wet with blood.

And wargs are commonly known as having the "mark of the beast":

Quote

"No, unhand me.  He's just a boy, a bastard.  His father was a traitor.  The mark of the beast is on him, that wolf of his..."

Quote

"When Stark changed into a wolf, his northmen did the same.  The mark of the beast was on them all.  Wargs birth other wargs with a bite, it is well-known."

If Jon is to be resurrected, it may be through Melisandre's sacrifice of Shireen (Shireen being used in place of Edric Storm since they both share a similar lineage).  It's also possible that Melisandre will be also sacrificed to raise Jon, in a manner similar to Beric's sacrifice to raise Catelyn).  And Melisandre's magic seems to be more shadow magic masquerading as fire magic:

Quote

“Shadow?” Davos felt his flesh prickling. “A shadow is a thing of darkness.”
“You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows.”

So Jon, with the mark of the beast is raised by a sacrifice of Shireen (stone), and Melisandre's shadow fire.

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So Jon, with the mark of the beast is raised by a sacrifice of Shireen (stone), and Melisandre's shadow fire.

God that sounds horrific.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

 

[Kierria]

4 hours ago, Allardyce said:

Jon will need to contract Greyscale to become the stone beast.  He is just pure Ice otherwise.  So purely ice that I give credit to those who believe he is the son of Brandon and Lyanna.  Stark on both sides.  The only grey about him is his eyes.  He is more north than his siblings.  More Stark than any of his family.  His wolf is more north and more savage.  Jon is the north.  The future King of the North, King of the Night.  The Nights King in every sense of the word.  He is the corpse king.  He will accomplish what Robb failed to do.  Take the north away from the kingdoms ruled by the Iron Throne.  That is indeed treason. 

Fire is power.  Shadow power in this case.  Dark powers.  What the beast has is not real fire but the power of darkness.  A power that does not bring light but instead brings the darkness.  Jon will help bring on that darkness.

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Very early on we're given a distinction between dragons and beasts:

And while dragons have been referred to as beasts, by far the creature most commonly referred to as a beast in the series is the direwolf.  Starting from very early on:

And wargs are commonly known as having the "mark of the beast":

If Jon is to be resurrected, it may be through Melisandre's sacrifice of Shireen (Shireen being used in place of Edric Storm since they both share a similar lineage).  It's also possible that Melisandre will be also sacrificed to raise Jon, in a manner similar to Beric's sacrifice to raise Catelyn).  And Melisandre's magic seems to be more shadow magic masquerading as fire magic:

So Jon, with the mark of the beast is raised by a sacrifice of Shireen (stone), and Melisandre's shadow fire.

 

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

God that sounds horrific.

 

He is not coming back a good boy.  

[LynnS]

"Prophecy is a staple element in Fantasy, but it's tricky...You want to play with the notion of prophecies coming true but in an unexpected way. You want to be unpredictable about it. Shakespeare is the ultimate example of that — when the forest of Birnam Wood coming to Dunsinane Castle, MacBeth will fall. Everybody laughs — how can the forest come to the castle. [Malcolm] came camouflaged with branches and so on. Also, during the War of the Roses, one of the lords was prophesied that he would die at a certain castle. So he always took pains to avoid that castle. But then in the First Battle of St Albans, he was wounded and died outside a pub that had that castle on its pub sign. You have to look at prophecies carefully and look at the weasel-wording. Maggy the Frog tells Cersei a prophecy, but could Cersei make it happen through her efforts to avoid it?"

- George R. R. Martin

 

 

 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So Jon, with the mark of the beast is raised by a sacrifice of Shireen (stone), and Melisandre's shadow fire.

I'm hoping this has more to do with Euron or Victarion than Jon.  They fit the bill for 'beast' (an inhumanly cruel, violent, or depraved person.) better than Jon.    

- a great stone beast

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Theon II

Neither the dancers nor the drinkers took much note of Theon Greyjoy as he strode to the dais. Lord Balon occupied the Seastone Chair, carved in the shape of a great kraken from an immense block of oily black stone. Legend said that the First Men had found it standing on the shore of Old Wyk when they came to the Iron Islands. To the left of the high seat were Theon's uncles. Asha was ensconced at his right hand, in the place of honor. "You come late, Theon," Lord Balon observed.

 

[chrisdaw]

The Great is also significant, look to Garin the Great, Grazdan the Great, Khiara the Great, particularly Qarlon the Great and even the Great Spring Sickness for cross references to the Great Stone Beast and Euron.

For example Khiara's whole significance being the taking of two spouses, as Euron is to have a salt and rock wife. 

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The Great is also significant, look to Garin the Great, Grazdan the Great, Khiara the Great, particularly Qarlon the Great and even the Great Spring Sickness for cross references to the Great Stone Beast and Euron.

Frey Family Reunion could be right but I'd hate it to be Jon.  I didn't think things could get any worse with Ramsey, Victarion and Euron, but that's wishful thinking.

These characters are already beasts and demons in human skin.  Euron is represented by the black stone throne carved into the great kraken.  He and Victarion are the immediate threats to Dany.  

[rotting sea cow]

On 5/26/2020 at 12:04 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

What I meant was that stone dragons, waking dragons from stone, are directly associated with the AA prophecy.

I wouldn't discard Euron presenting himself as a champion against the Others. A false one. But if he "wakes up" dragons from stone and people are desperate enough they might follow.

 

On 5/26/2020 at 12:04 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

That said, Euron is going to be a formidable adversary for Bran and anyone fighting against him.

Yes, I think to defeat Euron a number of people will need to band together and therefore becoming the prelude of the coalition against the Others.  Bran will be fundamental of course, Sam and Marwyn et al. will play an important role,  Garlan and Willas too, Theon and Asha (and maybe the Reader?), Moqorro and maybe others. Euron will likely make Dany and Jon to work together  and the two of them will finally kill Euron.

[LynnS]

26 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Yes, I think to defeat Euron a number of people will need to band together and therefore becoming the prelude of the coalition against the Others.  Bran will be fundamental of course, Sam and Marwyn et al. will play an important role,  Garlan and Willas too, Theon and Asha (and maybe the Reader?), Moqorro and maybe others. Euron will likely make Dany and Jon to work together  and the two of them will finally kill Euron.

I'm wondering if the army of the dead is being raised to protect Bran from Euron.

I'm also wondering if Arya will be the one to slay the savage beast in a castle made of snow.  Who else has a sword that can penetrate scaled armor? 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm also wondering if Arya will be the one to slay the savage beast in a castle made of snow.  Who else has a sword that can penetrate scaled armor? 

Arya has a sword that can penetrate scaled armor?