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King Adrian Storm

Theories you originally disliked, but are now invested in

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What theories did you originally think were dumb, but now are dying to see?

For me:

1. Jon is King in the North.

2. Euron is the third head of the Dragon.

3. Shireen burns to resurrect Jon.

4. Drogon burns the iron throne.

5. Stannis is the night's king.

 

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  1. Jon and Satin will have a romantic relationship, or at least, Jon has subconscious feelings for Satin.
    • I was not originally against the idea because I have something against Satin or against this relationship abstractly. Rather, I felt there was insufficient seeding for Jon being bisexual, and I originally wondered what such a relationship might add.
    • By way of explaining the value: @Lord Varysrecently put it best by suggesting Satin "helps Jon become human again," and by proposing a parallel with Daenerys and Irri -- any avid reader knows how often Jon and Dany are in parallel!
    • One can argue there was only one PoV character at the Wall before Melisandre, so the description of Satin falls to him; but the inopportune moments by and unnecessary redundancy with which Jon contemplates Satin's attractiveness or grace seem noteworthy. It certainly contrasts with how he considers other characters, including other men who have been described as attractive.
    • Additionally, there are several instances of double entendres in prose and dialogue between Satin and Jon, which reflect some of the scenes developing Brienne and Jaime's relationship. Mr. Martin excels at this type of language, and he uses it to great effect when these two pairs are -- for the sake of comparison here -- sparring.
    • Assuming a relationship is indeed established, the biggest concern is one of pacing, but I believe that is symptomatic of the host of problems which restricting the remainder of the series to two books inherently introduces. I am firmly of the belief that a minimum of three books is necessary to complete A Song of Ice and Fire; this relationship could very well fill the gaps between Jon's resurrection, help explain the likely recovery of much of his humanity, and parallel him yet another time with Daenerys, as they would presumably be each other's third and final romantic partner.
  2. Jaime will be the valonqar.
    • My objection was largely because I did not like the misogynistic undertones: the reasonable man putting down the crazy (read: hysterical) woman, in a manner that is very evocative of domestic abuse. I had no doubt Mr. Martin would accomplish this with literary merit, but I thought that the pattern of ineffectual queens and probable justification of this act by the narrative would result in unfortunate implications.
    • However, I do now believe that this is likely; Jaime fulfilling the prophecy is the most narratively sound decision for multiple reasons, and will end the arcs of both twins appropriately. Jaime will perhaps not be the "good" twin to Cersei's "evil" per se, but he will have reasons both righteous (Mad Queen Cersei attempting to complete the job that Mad King Aerys started seems probable, considering Cersei's rapid descent into paranoia throughout A Feast for Crows and the slipping of her sanity since) and self-righteous (Cersei's abuse and abandonment of him might strike a chord, particularly if she directly or indirectly reminds him of her narcissism or indiscretions). This means that the reader will have to understand his act was not borne purely from good or selfless reasons -- as much as outright murder can ever be -- especially as he will likely abuse the trust of his sister and (former) lover Cersei, as he once did with his king Aerys. Leaving such analyses to the reader is very characteristic of Mr. Martin.
    • I also like the idea that Jaime lives after fulfilling this prophecy, which entails him living with knowledge of his actions, both for good (saving King's Landing once again) and for evil (no doubt the culmination of their relationship, which was arguably mutually abusive but certainly included Cersei's emotional manipulation of Jaime, will offer Jaime a selfish and unforgivable additional reason to murder his twin sister). Incidentally, someone living as Kingslayer, Queenslayer, and Kinslayer would make for an extremely interesting story, especially for the reader, who apprehends why.
  3. fAegon is a Blackfyre, rather than either the real Aegon or some rando who has no claim to so-called royal blood.
    • This one requires much more comprehensive explanation, and I do not have the time to explain why I changed my views. Suffice it to say that I find very compelling symbolism, foreshadowing, thematic cohesion, and so forth to believe that Aegon VI Targaryen will be the last of the Blackfyre Pretenders.
    • One significant consequence of this theory is potentially providing Varys with a relatable motivation. The most duplicitous, and quite possibly the most complex, character in the series might well ultimately have the most understandable and basic drive of all: that of love. If fAegon is the son of Serra Blackfyre and Illyrio Mopatis, and Varys is Serra's brother, he would be the boy's uncle, and akin to his godfather considering his close relationship with Illyrio.

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24 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

My objection was largely because I did not like the misogynistic undertones: the reasonable man putting down the crazy (read: hysterical) woman, in a manner that is very evocative of domestic abuse. I had no doubt Mr. Martin would accomplish this with literary merit, but I thought that the pattern of ineffectual queens and probable justification of this act by the narrative would result in unfortunate implications.

Anyone who wants a peek under GRRM's hood should read Meathouse Man. George is extremely progressive, and on an intellectual level I think he truly believes he is a feminist, but deep down inside him someplace he really seems to hate women.

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14 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Anyone who wants a peek under GRRM's hood should read Meathouse Man. George is extremely progressive, and on an intellectual level I think he truly believes he is a feminist, but deep down inside him someplace he really seems to hate women.

Oh, well, he also hates men if you read 'Weekend in a War Zone'. Those stories were all from this 'life sucks, and people I love fuck me in the unpleasant manner' period.

But, of course, he can channel/write misogynistic murderers very well, in part certainly due to his own biography.

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Jon being brought back from death. I'm not sure why I was so resistant to this one... I guess it's because I originally interpreted Jon as only having been heavily wounded but not dead. But now I'm super curious about Franken-Jon.

41 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

My objection was largely because I did not like the misogynistic undertones: the reasonable man putting down the crazy (read: hysterical) woman, in a manner that is very evocative of domestic abuse. I had no doubt Mr. Martin would accomplish this with literary merit, but I thought that the pattern of ineffectual queens and probable justification of this act by the narrative would result in unfortunate implications.

I'm rather weary of this too. There will always be the uncomfortable implication that "the bitch got what she deserved" but the framing will make a big difference. The Walk of Shame is the exact tone needed.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/22/2020 at 11:51 PM, Many-Faced Votary said:

Jaime will be the valonqar.

Very interesting read!  Although Jaime is the odds on favorite for volonqar;  I still entertain the idea that Euron is involved.  I get the sense that Cersei's dreams have the characteristics of a glass candle invasion.  The last is interesting:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IX

Dawn was breaking over King's Landing when they climbed from the tub. The queen's skin was white and wrinkled from her long immersion. "Stay with me," she told Taena. "I do not want to sleep alone." She even said a prayer before she crawled beneath her coverlet, beseeching the Mother for sweet dreams.

It proved a waste of breath; as ever, the gods were deaf. Cersei dreamt that she was down in the black cells once again, only this time it was her chained to the wall in place of the singer. She was naked, and blood dripped from the tips of her breasts where the Imp had torn off her nipples with his teeth. "Please," she begged, "please, not my children, do not harm my children." Tyrion only leered at her. He was naked too, covered with coarse hair that made him look more like a monkey than a man. "You shall see them crowned," he said, "and you shall see them die." Then he took her bleeding breast into his mouth and began to suck, and pain sawed through her like a hot knife.

And this from Victarion about the company Euron keeps:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain

"He is here," Victarion told the Barber. "Drop sail. We proceed on oars alone. Command Grief and Iron Vengeance to stand between Silence and the sea. The rest of the fleet to seal the bay. None is to leave save at my command, neither man nor crow."

The men upon the shore had spied their sails. Shouts echoed across the bay as friends and kin called out greetings. But not from Silence. On her decks a motley crew of mutes and mongrels spoke no word as the Iron Victory drew nigh. Men black as tar stared out at him, and others squat and hairy as the apes of Sothoros. Monsters, Victarion thought.

Euron is also the younger brother of Balon.  Of course, this is a prediction that Cersei would translate into Tyrion, whom she hates (because he does confront her narcissism).  For me valonqar doesn't necessarily translate to either of Cersei's little brothers.  Euron has no conscience when it comes to killing family members and I'm guessing that it will extend to Cersei, his potential rock wife when she outlives her usefulness (or talks to much). :D 

Edited by LynnS

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On 5/22/2020 at 11:51 PM, Many-Faced Votary said:

fAegon is a Blackfyre,

I'm wondering if fAegon is a bastard Targaryen where his colors would be reversed rather than a Blackfyre and it's the bastardy that is being covered up.

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On 5/22/2020 at 11:51 PM, Many-Faced Votary said:

fAegon is a Blackfyre, rather than either the real Aegon or some rando who has no claim to so-called royal blood.

  • This one requires much more comprehensive explanation, and I do not have the time to explain why I changed my views. Suffice it to say that I find very compelling symbolism, foreshadowing, thematic cohesion, and so forth to believe that Aegon VI Targaryen will be the last of the Blackfyre Pretenders.

I went with the current that he was a Blackfyre pretender, but there's just a lot in the text that points to him not being that. And yes, it would very much alter the speculation on Varys. 

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51 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I went with the current that he was a Blackfyre pretender, but there's just a lot in the text that points to him not being that. And yes, it would very much alter the speculation on Varys. 

I'm of two minds.  I lean towards fAegon being the real thing.  Since Rhaegar thought he was the pwip; I can't see him or Elia not taking steps to hide him.  On the other hand, if Rhaegar thought he would win the Battle of the Trident; he may have thought that his family was safe where they were.  In which case, the infant was killed and a replacement supplied by Varys.  

At one point, Varys is talking about Robert's bastards with Tyrion and he tells him that he knows of one more but doesn't name the bastard.  Potentially this is fAegon who may be Targ bastard rather than one of Robert's bastard.  In other words a royal bastard that nobody knows about.  

To me this could be either Rhaegar's bastard or Aerys bastard.  I'm thinking Ashera is the mother given Selmy's comments about being dishonored in some way at Harrenhall.  I'm guessing that Ned Stark was too shy for coitus; but Aerys is a randy bastard and likely to stomp on Ned and Ashera for their mutual attraction.

Selmy may well be aware of the kings actions and made to suffer in silence.  If only Ashera hadn't turned to Ned Stark.... she wouldn't have been dishonored.  Who else knows she was dishonored?

The rest is subterfuge.

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My main initial resistance to FAegon was the fact that the Blackfyres have not been explored that much in the main novels; only in ADWD, the novel FAegon appears in (if I'm not mistaken). And I don't really like when things from secondary sources are supposed to be, or are used as, explanations for things that happen in the main work. However, FAegon being a Blackfyre really fits, and, after all, we still have more books coming, so the Blackfyres history could still be, and will surely be, expanded in those volumes.

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38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm of two minds.  I lean towards fAegon being the real thing.  Since Rhaegar thought he was the pwip; I can't see him or Elia not taking steps to hide him.  On the other hand, if Rhaegar thought he would win the Battle of the Trident; he may have thought that his family was safe where they were.  In which case, the infant was killed and a replacement supplied by Varys.  

Him thinking that he was going to win doesn't mean he didn't try to take his precautions with Elia and the children. He left 3 Kingsguard at Lyanna's back. If he is so sure that he is going to win, then giving her 3 men to guard her is overkill, imo. We know that he commanded Elia and the children's safety to Jaime from Jaime's dream. We don't know who else he spoke to about their safety. 

Elia tried to leave king's Landing, but Aerys wouldn't let her. If there plans that needed to be set in motion, this is the time. And if there were no plans, there is a big enough window to prepare. Elia isn't an idiot and I don't think she sat on her hands. And Varys clearly did not trust Tywin Lannister since he told Aerys not to open his gates, which he ended up doing anyway.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Him thinking that he was going to win doesn't mean he didn't try to take his precautions with Elia and the children. He left 3 Kingsguard at Lyanna's back. If he is so sure that he is going to win, then giving her 3 men to guard her is overkill, imo. We know that he commanded Elia and the children's safety to Jaime from Jaime's dream. We don't know who else he spoke to about their safety. 

Elia tried to leave king's Landing, but Aerys wouldn't let her. If there plans that needed to be set in motion, this is the time. And if there were no plans, there is a big enough window to prepare. Elia isn't an idiot and I don't think she sat on her hands. And Varys clearly did not trust Tywin Lannister since he told Aerys not to open his gates, which he ended up doing anyway.

I agree.  Elia and Rhaegar would take precautions to hide Aegon.  That seems to be the most logical thing to do if they believe he is the important pwip.  Cersei was prepared to do the same with Tommen and Egg disguised himself and wandered about with Dunk.

Just spit-balling about Aerys and the question of royal bastards.  Varys makes it his business to know where they are all hidden. 

 

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)

 There are several out there that I wholeheartedly disagree with, like Jojen Paste. But the reveals I’m looking forward the most are the ones that really totally crush the unsupported “theories”, like @LmL‘s “human paste”. Really, what are you gonna do w/ yourself once TWoW is published? :dunno:

Edited by kissdbyfire
Drunken spelling

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8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 There are several out there that I wholeheartedly disagree with, like Jojen Paste. But the reveals I’m looking forward the most are the ones that really totally crush the unsupported “theories”, like @LmL‘s “human paste”. Really, what are you gonna do w/ yourself once TWoW is published? :dunno:

I followed LML for a while during the early stages of his project.  I'm mainly interested in ideas and possibilities and those were the heady days when the competition for ideas was hot.   In the end, I wanted to be able to use my own head, rather than be overly influenced by how someone else interprets the material. Today, I just don't remember anything about the substance of his essays. I remember that I thought he was intelligent and creative and friendly on the few occasions that we conversed.

I don't actually hate ideas or opinions.  I suppose I'm not as invested as I used to be.  I want answers from GRRM though and I hope that will not be long in coming.  

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I followed LML for a while during the early stages of his project.  I'm mainly interested in ideas and possibilities and those were the heady days when the competition for ideas was hot.   In the end, I wanted to be able to use my own head, rather than be overly influenced by how someone else interprets the material. Today, I just don't remember anything about the substance of his essays. I remember that I thought he was intelligent and creative and friendly on the few occasions that we conversed.

I don't actually hate ideas or opinions.  I suppose I'm not as invested as I used to be.  I want answers from GRRM though and I hope that will not be long in coming.  

I don’t think I’ve ever interacted w/ him, but I had the same impression from the stuff of his that I read; he seems to be intelligent and very creative. I just don’t see his ideas for ASoIaF ever paying off in any meaningful way. 

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2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think I’ve ever interacted w/ him, but I had the same impression from the stuff of his that I read; he seems to be intelligent and very creative. I just don’t see his ideas for ASoIaF ever paying off in any meaningful way. 

Well, human paste... Whaaa?!  I have no context, but assume it's a take-off of Jojen paste.  I'm not sure about his take on the moons colliding or the oily black stone either.  That's about all I remember minus the details. 

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Tyrion will get Arya pregnant and cause problems with icey Jon. 

Spoiler

Bobono is Tyrion in the Mercy preview.  This is what will happen in the future.  They will have sex in the future.  The quarrel between the Lannisters and the Starks will resume.  Jon will have the wildlings at his side against the Lannisters.

 

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It's embarassing now but for me without a doubt it was not accepting Lyanna Stark as KotLT. Like others I put too much stock into the booming voice element of the character. After thinking about it and reading more of GRRMs work both inside and outside ASOIAF universe there's no doubt in my mind of the theory's veracity.

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A. Slavery will remain unresolved at the end.  We will get a Dany POV in which she starts making plans for a final battle with the slave masters but we will not know the results.  Count on George to include economic as well as social issues on the table.

B.  I really would like Brandon Stark and Lyanna Stark to be the parents of Jon Snow.  I am now accepting Mance Rayder as Jon's father.  The sneaky bard got Lyanna pregnant.  Mance had the audacity and the skill to invite himself for dinner during Robert's visit to Winterfell.  Walls and distance are not enough to stop this fellow.

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