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What are some popular theories in the fandom that you can't see happening?


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On 5/31/2020 at 8:26 PM, Lollygag said:

I don't think the Blackfyres will play as large of a role as some seem to think. They've only been barely mentioned in the main books which is what casual readers stick to and those few mentions haven't been memorable at all. Also, the Blackfyre story-line didn't exist as of AGOT meaning Varys and Illyrio had a motive(s) which stand independent of them.

Also don't buy the Jon-resurrection storyline. Beric was raised as a proxy for Ned which is why he was irrationally compelled to raise Catelyn. Jon would make 3/4 dead Starks to be resurrected literally or symbolically which is massive overkill. GRRM is also very good at hiding his cards as to where the books will go, yet he created a so-called massive cliffhanger where he all but screamed from the rooftop what would happen? Nah. Through parallels with Bran in AGOT, Jon's only injured and how he gets back on his feet is being hidden behind the resurrection red herring.

The Blackfyres didn't exist until after Clash. And George will retcon whatever he wants. 

It is interesting that Varys and Illyrio may have some plan that doesn't involve loyalty to the Blackfyres or Targaryens. But listen to what he says about his ASOIAF writing process. It is entirely possible George hadn't finalized anything about their conspiracy at the time other than what he put on the page in that Arya chapter. 

I agree Jon may not need to be resurrected. None of the wounds described to us need be fatal. 

Agreed George is very good at hiding his cards. Alot of info is couched in fever dreams, drug trips, recollections by other people. Like Catelyn's recollection of Ned saying “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know." and the rest of the exchange. It is world class slight of hand. In reality we do not know what Ned said, if he said anything. 

He also gives every POV their own knowledge level and biases. Which makes it absolutely mind boggling that anyone would try to build a theory on interpreting a fevre dream literally.

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37 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

The Blackfyres didn't exist until after Clash. And George will retcon whatever he wants. 

It is interesting that Varys and Illyrio may have some plan that doesn't involve loyalty to the Blackfyres or Targaryens. But listen to what he says about his ASOIAF writing process. It is entirely possible George hadn't finalized anything about their conspiracy at the time other than what he put on the page in that Arya chapter. 

Sure. But I think it's more likely that Varys and Illyrio still have the same motives from the first two books in place and that the Blackfyres were roped into that in a way that works well. It's just weird to write 2 full books of Varys and Illyrio and their game which turn so much of the plot and to then just toss their whole backstory mid-stream.

12 unmemorable mentions in the main series, often just in passing, just don't match the forum's massive expectations. :dunno:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=blackfyre&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc

 

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1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Sure. But I think it's more likely that Varys and Illyrio still have the same motives from the first two books in place and that the Blackfyres were roped into that in a way that works well. It's just weird to write 2 full books of Varys and Illyrio and their game which turn so much of the plot and to then just toss their whole backstory mid-stream.

12 unmemorable mentions in the main series, often just in passing, just don't match the forum's massive expectations. :dunno:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=blackfyre&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc

 

I agree with and like your line of thinking. Just George can do what he wants as long as the clues still point to the butler doing it. We need not know that's the 5th butler he's pointed to. The books need not know the Blackfyres didn't exist until after Clash. In book world they date back to well before 298 AC. They just hadn't been mentioned to us yet. 

P.S. I can think of a theory that has 12 less mentions and has gotten like 10,000× more attention.

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9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Sure. But I think it's more likely that Varys and Illyrio still have the same motives from the first two books in place and that the Blackfyres were roped into that in a way that works well. It's just weird to write 2 full books of Varys and Illyrio and their game which turn so much of the plot and to then just toss their whole backstory mid-stream.

12 unmemorable mentions in the main series, often just in passing, just don't match the forum's massive expectations. :dunno:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=blackfyre&scope[]=agot&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc

 

I also find it hard to believe that the payoff for the Varys Illyrio storyline is just going to be the what, 7th, 8th attempt at a Blackfyre rebellion?  My guess is that they are attempting a more fundamental change than just replacing a Blackfyre line in place of a Targaryen one.  I think Aegon's lineage takes a back seat to the fact that they trained him to be the type of ruler that realm needs as opposed to one that the realm inherits due to a birth right.

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But to return to the Blackfyre line for a second.  While it may not have existed as an idea in the first two books, it certainly exists as an idea now, and there must be a reason for it.  While I don't believe that we're looking at another attempt at a Blackfyre rebellion, I do think certain parties may be taking an interest in the Blackfyre lineage, especially the Blackfyre lineage along the female line for a more fundamental reason.

George has seemingly taken an interest in inheritable genes in this series.  Our first major mystery involved fairly rudimentary genetics of the improbability of the black haired Baratheon  conceiving three golden haired children.  And the idea that the Targaryens believed that incest was the only way to keep their dragon riding line intact.

GRRM's wildcard series he edits and occasionally writes has also delved into the idea of inherited superpowers.

I think the main genetic importance of the Blackfyre line, is that it can be traced back to a time when the female Targaryen line and the male Targaryen line had a significant split.

The Targaryen line which ended with Aerys II was really descended from Viserys II and Larra Rogare.  Aerys III daughters were not a part of this lineage at all.  But they did create their own lineages, Daena through House Blackfyre, and Elaena through House (Long)Waters, Plumm, and Penrose.  

It would not surprise me if we learn that there has been an attempt to genetically engineer a dragon rider through an attempt to weave some of these blood lines back together.

ETA: and this quote I stumbled across from early on in the first book of the series makes me more convinced that the author was teasing a split between the male and the female Targaryens back to the time the Targaryen still had dragons:

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The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another's swords hundred of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons.

So while presumably GRRM hadn't worked out the details of the Dance just yet, it was important to note that there was a split between the Targaryen brother and sister at the time of the Dance.

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10 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

I agree with and like your line of thinking. Just George can do what he wants as long as the clues still point to the butler doing it. We need not know that's the 5th butler he's pointed to. The books need not know the Blackfyres didn't exist until after Clash. In book world they date back to well before 298 AC. They just hadn't been mentioned to us yet. 

P.S. I can think of a theory that has 12 less mentions and has gotten like 10,000× more attention.

Oh, I agree. But Jon's parentage and the events of Robert's Rebellion loom HUGE over the series.

12 mentions or less may be fine if they've been presented in such a way that the casual reader (not us who obsess on the forums) have some recollection of them. But the mentions are in passing with no significant time or memorable story attached that grabs the readers' imagination. Much of the time spent on the Blackfyres is from TWOIAF and F&B which aren't going to be read by most and aren't intended as required reading for the series proper. The Blackfyres are canon and will be in the next books, but I think they're a means rather than an end and won't be as big as is generally believed on the forum. I agree with @Frey family reunion that V&I's big goals are bigger and I strongly suspect that magic is involved somehow. Varys' proclamation of hating magic doesn't fit with his behavior at all so I think it was all bs to convince Tyrion to take a bigger role against Stannis, but the specific story that Varys told tells me that his goals may involve the Others or factions who support them. Trying to weave genetic lines together as FFR suggested would fit right into that and provides an interesting parallel to BR who was waiting for specific gifts to appear in the Starks.

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16 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

She does care.

Reread A Dance with Dragons

Yes, she cares. She always believes it. She even shows it by going to the diseased. But it doesn't help. The plague was the consequence of her abandon of Astapor. She feels bad. But she intents to reclaim the 7K anyway. If she was really caring she would have stayed at Astaport, to build a system without slavery. Her desertion generated the plague. And she is willing to repeat the experience with Meereen. And probably bring destruction to Westeros even if fAegon is at this stage a decent king.  Bring Red priests against the Faith. Bring dothrakis, sell-swords, ironborns (the brute or the monster?), living all for rampage and slavery.

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Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

 

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On 6/14/2020 at 5:37 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

Jaime or kingslaying in general?

I meant Jaime. 

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But these kings, the Targaryens, Dany in particular (so far only Mance impresses me), are no king or queen. They are monsters, killing others to get what they want. Not chosen by gods and men. Gods are enjoying their death.

The Targaryens are the only family who has done good for the people of Westeros.  Just look what happened when the Baratheons took over.  Robert and his family could not even handle one successful succession.  The Baratheons are slimy slugs compared to the majesty of the Targaryens.  The Baratheons are fools and morons when you put them up against the Targaryens.  The Stags took over a healthy economy and a full treasury.  It only took them fifteen years to put the crown in debt.  The Baratheons and their Stark allies could not handle the responsibility.

The Targaryens could have used their dragons to take Casterly Rock by force.  They did not.  Because they did not conquer Westeros to plunder.  Now, let us look what Tywin and the Lannisters did when they finally got their asses in power.  Tywin schemed to take his stunted drunk of a son and appropriate the north and make it a Lannister holding.  The Targaryen rulers did not do that.  They were content to rule instead of lining their pockets. 

Daenerys is a Queen.  She is also a khaleesi who leads her own khalasar.  The Mother of Dragons and Azor Ahai.  The Breaker of Chains.  She is the heroine and the protagonists of A Song of Ice and Fire.

As far as killing others to get what they want, well, every noble family does that.  Has done that.  How do you think those mutts in the north called Starks got into power?  They slaughtered and killed the other families who stood in their way.  These savages practiced the ritualistic rape of newlyweds.  And that's not all.  They murdered people and fed their blood to their disgusting weirwood.  The Gods throw a celebration party each time one of these Stark slimeballs go down.  The Gods and many fans broke out the champagne when Bowen freed the watch from Jon's tyranny.

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39 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Just look what happened when the Baratheons took over.

I didn't count the Baratheons in the good kings. But Robert killed less of his people than Maegor or the conqueror.

43 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

many fans broke out the champagne when Bowen freed the watch from Jon's tyranny

Yes I know. You did no doubt.:cheers:

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5 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The Targaryens could have used their dragons to take Casterly Rock by force.  They did not.  Because they did not conquer Westeros to plunder. 

Don't really care about the as usual rant but this was really funny. 

The Targaryens didn't take Casterly Rock because it's impossible to break a chunk of rock thrice the size of the wall, with or without dragons.

That and because Loren the last bent the knee , so there was literally no necessity for them to embarass themselves.

 

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These savages practiced the ritualistic rape of newlyweds.  

So did/do the Targaryens. Dragonseeds they called them.

 

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They murdered people and fed their blood to their disgusting weirwood.  

I bet that's not worse than slavery.

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5 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

They murdered people and fed their blood to their disgusting weirwood. 

There is only one Bran's vision. And we don't know what it means.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

I bet that's not worse than slavery.

The Boltons had awful practices. But those who followed them died. Only fools like Ramsay want to resume it.

But to stay in this thread's theme, because we're derailing it. Any theories that proclaim the Targaryens as the rightful kings. Masters and slavers of all, by their Valyrian blood.

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On 6/18/2020 at 9:17 AM, Frey family reunion said:

I also find it hard to believe that the payoff for the Varys Illyrio storyline is just going to be the what, 7th, 8th attempt at a Blackfyre rebellion?  My guess is that they are attempting a more fundamental change than just replacing a Blackfyre line in place of a Targaryen one.  I think Aegon's lineage takes a back seat to the fact that they trained him to be the type of ruler that realm needs as opposed to one that the realm inherits due to a birth right.

The next Blackfyre Rebellion will be the sixth, I believe. It will also be the second Dance of the Dragons, making it extra cool.

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On 5/25/2020 at 5:56 PM, Lady Anna said:

That either Jon or Dany, or both together, will become rulers at the end.

That's the one I disagree the most with. Because both Dany and Jon would be poor choices for the next ruler, but even more so, because this breaks the meta-level logic of the entire series. 

The moment in which ASOIAF 'creed' was born was the downfall and execution of Ned Stark. Killing him off just when the story was starting to really gain momentum went against every expectation of how things are supposed to go for the protagonist of the story and GRRM time and again confirmed he deliberately sets out to break audience's expectation with the way he handles plot and character development in the series. So I can't see him suddenly throwing all that aside and giving this very subversive story a cookie-cutter conventional ending with one (or both) of messianic archetypes getting the ultimate prize - the kingdom to rule. 

That is also why I don't think Dany nor Jon (nor Aegon, nor any other character in the series) will straight up fulfill the Azor Ahai/Prince Who Was Promised prophecies. 

Also - I'm in full agreement with @punzerknacker as to the theory that R+L=J but he's still a bastard, just not Ned's. 

Other than that, I don't see:

- Tyrion being the Targ and/or riding a dragon, 

- Gendry being legitimized, 

- Cleganebowl, 

- Bran staying in the weirwood cave for the reminder of the story (and his life), 

- Others being gone once and for all from Planetos at the end of the story, 

- any and all shiping theories, but especially Brienne and Jaime. 

 

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On 5/25/2020 at 5:56 PM, Lady Anna said:

That either Jon or Dany, or both together, will become rulers at the end.

This. Or that their child would be one, in the event that one or both of them will die while saving Westeros from Others. 

 I don't know how anyone can realisticaly expect this kind of conventional, troperrific ending to the story that delivered its storytelling 'logic' by offing Ned Stark - the protagonist at that point - just as it was starting to really gain momentum. I'll sooner believe that Others devouring all the Planetos is the endgame. 

On that note, Azor Ahai/Prince That Was Promised being a genuine savior of humanity - if their identity is at all confirmed in the novels. 

Other than that, a few minor theories (in the grand scheme of the fate of Planetos) I don't subscribe to:

- any theory involving hidden secret identity (possibly with exception of Septa Lemore having one) but especially Cersei/Jaime/Tyrion being secretly Targs, Mance being secretly Rhaegar, Roose Bolton being secretly part-Other, 

-any shiping theory that involves true love and/or happy ending for the parties involved, 

- any of BobbyB's bastards being legitimized to restore House Baratheon after it perishes with Stannis ans Shireen, 

- Cleganebowl, 

- Bran staying in the weirwood cave for the reminder of the story/his life. 

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Alayne, LF's bastard daugher = Sansa
Reek = Theon
That bald guy with the big lady in the Riverlands = Jaime Lannister
Dude on the Quiet Isle = Sandor Clegane
Jon Snow = Rhaegar & Lyanna's kid
Young Griff = Aegon
Random guy hanging out with Catelyn in AGOT = Rodrick
Arstan = Barristan
Stoneheart = Catelyn Stark
That random kid hanging out with the mountain clans = Bran Stark
That kid hanging out in Skagos = Rickon Stark
Hugor Hill = Tyrion Lannister
Abel = Mance Rayder
Rattleshirt = Mance Rayder
Griff = Jon Connington
Long list of names I'm not going to bother to list = Arya Stark
Maybe just as long a list of folks = Varys
3EC = Bloodraven
Various = Sandsnakes
Pate = Jaqen

Frog = Quentyn Martell

Notice a pattern? GRRM likes secret-so-and-so's even if the readers don't. I don't buy that there won't be a fair number more secret identities revealed.

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@Lollygag

True, but there is marked difference between revealing that Reek was Theon (or that first Reek was Ramsay Bolton) or that Lady Stoneheart is Catelyn Tully or that Gravedigger is Sandor and revealling that Cersei/Jaime/Tyrion are secretly Targaryens or that Rhaegar was hiding all this time as Mance Rayder.

Notice that in most of those examples there's the true identity established first - Theon, Sansa, Jaime, Sandor, Rodrick, Barristan, Bran, Rickon, Tyrion, Arya, Varys - and then plot causes that character to disappear and then reappear under the new identity. Even in case of Jon Connington, Aegon Targaryen and arguably Bloodraven, who first appear on page under the new identities, are previously established to exist as their true identities (the fact that Rhaegar and Elia had a son is established way before Young Griff's first scene).

There isn't previously well-established fact that Aerys and Joanna had a bastard child, who can then be introduced to the readers as one of Lannister siblings. That whole theory is based on a speculation that Aerys raped Joanna on her wedding night and extrapolating from that, that it must've happened again - since neither the twins nor Tyrion can be result of that supposed wedding night rape. And also - unlike in the case of Jon Snow - the secret identity of one parent isn't a fundament of Lannister siblings' identity from the moment of their introduction. 

But more importantly the secret identities you've mentioned are relatievely short-lived before the truth is revealed and the reveal doesn't retroactively detract from the character's portrayal. Not so in case of Cersei/Jaime/Tyrion=Targs or Mance=Rhaegar. If Cersei and Jaime are secret Targs then their incestous relationship immediatelly becomes 'inborn incest inclination' and that massively cheapens their character dynamic. If Tyrion is a Targ, then Tywin is vindicated in his refusal to accept him as his trueborn son and that cheapens all the drama between the two of them. That's stuff from a silly soap opera and I just can't see Martin going for this kind of trick. 

In case of Mance, the amount of hoops you need to jump through to justify why Rhaegar would survive the Trident and then decide to go north instead of following his siblings across the Narrow Sea is just to much for me. Also, Mance Rayder the ex-crow and self-made King Beyond The Wall is IMHO way more interesting character than Mance-Rhaegar, a wash-out prince, who caused a civil war, miraculously survived his defeat and ran to the wilderness to plot his come-back through another war - this time with a with a wilding invasion twist.

 TL;DR: I'm not saying there won't be anymore secret identities revealed, but the places fandom seems to be looking for them for the most part isn't in line with Martin's modus operandi for making those reveals. Septa Lemore, however, makes a perfect candidate for a secret identity. 

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On 6/20/2020 at 6:29 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

I didn't count the Baratheons in the good kings. But Robert killed less of his people than Maegor or the conqueror.

Yes I know. You did no doubt.:cheers:

Robert's Rebellion killed a lot of people.  Has our author given us the numbers of those who died in these conflicts?  

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Robert's Rebellion killed a lot of people.  Has our author given us the numbers of those who died in these conflicts?  

It couldn't kill more people than Aegon's war in Dorne. And well Maegor did follow his father's footsteps so...

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