The House of Undying

[Curled Finger]

Holy cow!  Great discussion!  I have nothing to add insofar as the magical power of anything nor of the subterranean realms, but this entire discussion reminds me of things we initially suspected or just picked up on from TWOIAF, particularly the Ifequevron and the COTF, the Ibbinese and Giants.  It seemed to me during early reads that Westeros was something of a later try at things Essos failed.   Provided the COTF are a later or even evolved version of the Ifequevron it makes a certain sense to me that Men and Giants are as well.  Similar or even exact replicas of doors or structures or even cultures in Westeros of Essos sort of led me down that weird head space that is positive Westeros is an experiment of sorts.  As an American this isn't such a difficult concept.  North America really was the final frontier for many places and people over a long time.   Someone once told me definitively that the Wildlings were just a spin on the Picts.  I'm not so sure. They have maintained so many ancient practices and ideas in a very dangerous place.   A place far from mainlands and diversity.  

Now thoughts turn to Euron as a second coming of the Bloodstone Emperor.  Will Oldtown become a wasteland like Valyria or maybe Dorne left like Asshai after Euron plays his cards and has his way?  It's clear that history repeats between Essos and Westeros, I see no reason magical places--maybe portals--wouldn't as well.   Perhaps it is these magical places that keep Essos in 1 piece?  Did not mean to derail the conversation, just adding a little season to an awfully good stew.   

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 5/23/2020 at 4:06 AM, LynnS said:

And what do you think this means?

Could symbolize death like many things she sees. That chapter reads like a horror movie. Drogon is also trying to destroy the weirwood which I dont like.

[LynnS]

On 6/9/2020 at 5:02 PM, Rosetta Stone said:

Dany and Bran are the ones who must decipher the meaning of these symbols.  They have the most magic in their chapters.  The mouth at the House of the Undying and the face at the Wall are clues saying they consume humans.  Those who enter the mouth never return.  The witches and warlocks inside trap them and slowly consume their lives.  The doorway at the Wall consume unwanted babies. 

Bloodraven calls the wierwoods gates.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

The most unusual has to be the Black Gate  But recall Varamyr at the moment of his true death when his soul is floating about and he enters or seems to be attracted to a weirwood for a few moment before being ejected.  Wierwoods would then be portals to the Otherworld.  This may be an explanation for the apparent sacrifices before the trees.  We get Bran's experience of tasting blood but I suspect that the soul is entering the portal to the otherworld and that is the point.  

It reminds me that sacrifices were seen in many cultures as sending a messenger to the gods.

We know that the Black Gate is a magical construct embedded in the Wall which isn't just ice but also stone.  Mel says the Wall is one of the hinges of the world.  A gate by definition is a hinged barrier used to close an opening in a wall, fence, or hedge.

Dany's POV is populated by the word door.  Martin says the red door is important and I suspect that the Red Door is another hinge of the world. 

 

 

.

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Now thoughts turn to Euron as a second coming of the Bloodstone Emperor.  Will Oldtown become a wasteland like Valyria or maybe Dorne left like Asshai after Euron plays his cards and has his way?  It's clear that history repeats between Essos and Westeros, I see no reason magical places--maybe portals--wouldn't as well.   Perhaps it is these magical places that keep Essos in 1 piece?  Did not mean to derail the conversation, just adding a little season to an awfully good stew. 

Well, thank you for joining in.  Some spice is nice!   I feel like I haven't had a discussion about this stuff for a couple of years and I'm curious about what people might think about it, now that some time has passed. 

I was just saying upthread that the wierwood are portals and gateways to the Otherworld, in particular north of the Wall.  The analog is Essos seems to be doors of some sort.  Although this would be a literal depiction that may turn out to be something else.  Martin has said that the red door is important, so if Dany finds this door, I think it will be the equivalent of the Black Gate  

[LynnS]

On 6/9/2020 at 7:12 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

What make you believe the greenseers feed off of human blood? This speculation of Jojen paste? The sacrifice in Bran's vision?

Yes. But it's not the case here. Weirwoods are everywhere in the North, without blood sacrifices. This is their nature. The GS spirits, not their bodies, endure because grafted in their wood. The bodies are gone or dead.

I'm not sure what is going on with this.  I think this may be the way that someone soul is translated into the tree; perhaps bearing a message to the gods. BR says the trees are portals or gateways and we something of this when Varamyr dies the true death and his soul is drawn to the tree.  

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, Seams said:

Long ago, I had a suspicion that the HotU is a Targaryen version of the Winterfell crypt, filled with dead ancestors who want to help educate or convey powers or advance the interests of their descendants. So keep that in mind: messages from dead people.

I actually had the impression that it was comparable to the wormways beneath the Wall with it's many doors and storage rooms. 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

All of Castle Black was connected underground by a maze of tunnels that the brothers called the wormways. It was dark and gloomy underneath the earth, so the wormways were little used in summer, but when the winter winds began to blow and the snows began to fall, the tunnels became the quickest way to move about the castle. The stewards were making use of them already. Jon saw candles burning in several wall niches as they made their way along the tunnel, their footsteps echoing ahead of them.

 Bowen Marsh was waiting at a junction where four wormways met. With him he had Wick Whittlestick, tall and skinny as a spear. "These are the counts from three turns ago," Marsh told Jon, offering him a thick sheaf of papers, "for comparison with our present stores. Shall we start with the granaries?"  

 

12 hours ago, Seams said:

I've also speculated that the HotU is analogous to Winterfell's library, which is burned when Bran (actually Catelyn) is attacked. "Always the door to the right" is like turning the pages of a book.

It's movement upwards that forms a spiral or whorl in three dimension.

12 hours ago, Seams said:

Tyrion tells us about coming down the outside steps from the library tower, which may tie into the "serpentine steps" imagery that overlaps with the serpentine HotU.

And the serpentine structure of the Wall is both a serpent and a sword In it's construction.

12 hours ago, Seams said:

Most of those deaths take place on the Green Fork and the Red Fork, though. So far, we have seen or heard very little about the Blue Fork.

Yes, I've always been a puzzled about the color distinctions here.  At first blush I'd say they represent represent the bloodlines of  Garth Greenhand, the Starks and the Targaryens.  But looking at the source of the rivers, I'm not so sure.  Just looking at a map; the source of the Blue Fork is Oldstones, the source of the Red Fork is Hornvale and the sourse of the Geen Fork is the Neck and Greywater Watch.  The all conjoin at the Crossroads Inn.  Crossroads also being magical places. 

https://quartermaester.info/  

12 hours ago, Seams said:

His eyes were molten. (ADwD, Daenerys IX)

I think this contains a "lemon tree" anagram - Dany has found her much-longed-for lemon tree.

And this brings me back to "the mold-eaten carpet." I think this may be another anagram.

The mold-eaten carpet = Lemon tree death pact?

Did Dany accept it or reject it before it was burned?

Wow!  As I've mention upthread I think the Red Door might be another hinge of the world.  Martin says it's important.  But what is the significance of the lemon tree?  This seems equivalent to the Black Gate and it's weirwood tree.  Perhaps we should be looking at the symbolism of lemons.

https://magickalspot.com/lemon-tree-symbolism-meaning/

[BalerionTheCat]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure what is going on with this.  I think this may be the way that someone soul is translated into the tree; perhaps bearing a message to the gods. BR says the trees are portals or gateways and we something of this when Varamyr dies the true death and his soul is drawn to the tree.  

I believe the weirwoods are more than trees. There are like symbiotes for the greenseers. I would not be surprised if they need something human to become what they are. Maybe human (or CotF) blood or life. But maybe it's not sacrifice. It could be a way, for those without the gift, to achieve something equivalent of the extended life of the greenseers. What would be such "sacrifice" when old men go to die alone in Winter; to leave the food for their children?

And like the Black Gate, the weirwoods have faces. Not as impressive. But their eyes are seeing. And their mouths... what if not for takling? If only to the mind of those who can listen.

[Son of Man]

On 6/9/2020 at 5:04 PM, Rosetta Stone said:

The greenseers feed off of human blood.  So no, they are not any more benevolent.  Only death can pay for life.  These devious folks require the blood of the living to continue living.  Human sacrifice. 

The North is savage.  Killing people and spilling their blood to fertilize those cursed trees was part of the Stark tradition. 

[corbon]

On 6/10/2020 at 6:08 AM, LynnS said:

Wonderfully fascinating essay!

I agree.

On 6/10/2020 at 6:08 AM, LynnS said:

I'd like to point out that Jaime, as a boy, used to jump of the cliffs of Casterly Rock in to the sea (according to Cersei); until Tywin put a stop to it.  So perhaps he was also dreaming of flying not unlike Euron. 

I can't find any references to this using cliffs, jump or similar.
The internet references are to the show.
I think this is a show only thing?

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, corbon said:

I agree.

I can't find any references to this using cliffs, jump or similar.
The internet references are to the show.
I think this is a show only thing?

Pretty sure its in the books.  I'll look for it.

[BalerionTheCat]

9 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Killing people and spilling their blood to fertilize those cursed trees was part of the Stark tradition

The North is harsh and unforgiving. If someone starts a war at the time everyone should gather food for the winter, everyone will die. This is a place where people chose to die so their children will live the Winter. This is the opposite of feeding on someone else live, killing someone for his food.

There are bad men everywhere. How about Gregor Clegane and those who used his services? The Boltons? Not likely all, but certainly Roose and Ramsay. The Starks? Some were hard men. But was Brandon Ice Eyes a bad man when he recaptured the Wolf's Den from slavers, then gave them to the ex-slaves? Or was he sending the right message to all slavers, that there is no such thing allowed in the North?

Violence is a tradition everywhere. Less in the North I would say. If only because the Winter doesn't forgive it. I don't know about blood fertilizing practices. But from everything written by GRRM, I would say the word "tradition" is an overstatement. Nothing is formally stated about a widespread practice.

[James West]

On 6/10/2020 at 9:47 PM, Bowen 747 said:

She has a successful track record of burning witches, warlocks, sorcerers, and magicians.  Who also happen to be liars and deceivers.  I believe this pattern will continue.  Those who try to deceive the Dragon end up in the fires.  It is almost like sending them to hell for their sins.

Here is an interesting idea.  What if "king's blood" meant the descendants of the children of the Maiden Made of Light and the Lion of the Night?  Only those have the real magical abilities.  Mirri was one such person.  The magic blood, the right priestess as well as the right conditions are the ingredients to miracles.  Dany is the right priestess because she is Azor Ahai.  All she needs is the blood of somebody who was born with magic powers.  She has the ritual down.  

[Springwatch]

On 6/11/2020 at 1:43 AM, Seams said:

Long ago, I had a suspicion that the HotU is a Targaryen version of the Winterfell crypt, filled with dead ancestors who want to help educate or convey powers or advance the interests of their descendants. So keep that in mind: messages from dead people.

I've also speculated that the HotU is analogous to Winterfell's library, which is burned when Bran (actually Catelyn) is attacked. "Always the door to the right" is like turning the pages of a book. Also, oddly, our best glimpses inside of the Winterfell library are with Tyrion and Bran. Tyrion is there to read rare books and Bran helps Septon Chayle clean up after the fire. One of Chayle's claims to fame is that he learned to swim in the White Knife river. I think he is a guide who can take mortals into the Underworld.

Tyrion tells us about coming down the outside steps from the library tower, which may tie into the "serpentine steps" imagery that overlaps with the serpentine HotU.

Spiral stairs in castles are nearly always clockwise and up - believed to obstruct swordsmen invading from below. The library stairs (on the outside) would work the same way - so always up is always turning right.

On 6/11/2020 at 1:43 AM, Seams said:

But those are old thoughts and I apologize for the repetition to those who have already read them in one of my old posts. Here's my new thinking, still tentative:

I'm increasingly interested in decoding GRRM's use of colors. "Indigo murk" is a unique color phrase the author uses in the HotU. Darker than blue but on the same side of the rainbow.

The HotU colours are a bit odd - indigo and black and purple are colours associated with Targs. Indigo appears in the chapter as the colour of Rhaegar's eyes - possibly a sign that Rhaegar's soul was gripped by prophecy (as Mel's is by fire) - and possibly a sign that Dany will find herself in conflict with Rhaegar's legacy in some way.

Also the HotU is serpentine in shape, drinking up the sun like the legendary dragons. If it's a dragon, why is it hostile to Drogon and Dany? Because dragons fight?

Last strange thing is that even though the Undying are blue and cold, they are incredibly combustible, like cold fuel that's been set alight: 'Their flesh was crumbling parchment, their bones dry wood soaked in tallow. They danced as the flames consumed them; they staggered and writhed and spun and raised blazing hands on high, their fingers bright as torches.'

It feels like most of the orange flame came from them (isn't Drogon's flame mostly black anyway?)

It's a big contrast with the godswood at Winterfell, which we're told almost completely resisted the huge fire there: 'A few pines along the edge of the wood had been scorched, but deeper in the damp soil and green wood had defeated the flames. "There is a power in living wood," said Jojen Reed, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, "a power as strong as fire."

Doesn't look Dany will find friends among the trees either.

On 6/11/2020 at 1:43 AM, Seams said:

I'm wondering whether GRRM is setting up a contrast between the red / orange / yellow at the Wall

and blue / indigo / violet in Dany's arc.

Stannis is blue too - blue eyes, and I think I remember blue shadows under the eye, or blue jawline from the stubble. He might be blue fuel too.

[Springwatch]

I looked up the quotes for the psycho-active drugs at the various places:

Quote

Dany] The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading throughout her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother's milk and Drogo's seed, like red meat and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them... and then the glass was empty.

[ACOK - DAENERYS IV]

[Bran] He ate. It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him. The empty bowl slipped from his fingers and clattered on the cavern floor.

[ADWD - BRAN III]

[Arya] The air was warm and heavy, so heavy that she yawned. She could smell the candles. The scent was unfamiliar, and she put it down to some queer incense, but as she got deeper into the temple, they seemed to smell of snow and pine needles and hot stew. Good smells, Arya told herself, and felt a little braver.

[AFFC - ARYA I]

"Death is not the worst thing," the kindly man replied. <snip> "Those who come to drink from the black cup are looking for their angels. If they are afraid, the candles soothe them. When you smell our candles burning, what does it make you think of, my child?"

Winterfell, she might have said. I smell snow and smoke and pine needles. I smell the stables. I smell Hodor laughing, and Jon and Robb battling in the yard, and Sansa singing about some stupid lady fair. I smell the crypts where the stone kings sit. I smell hot bread baking, I smell the godswood. I smell my wolf, I smell her fur, almost as if she were still beside me.

[AFFC - ARYA II]

In each case the effect is neutral or nasty at first, and then attractive in a really profound way (and it's nice to see what the the characters truly feel inside). Some of the effects are just impossible - the taste of molten gold, or a mother's last kiss, the smell of Hodor laughing. They are all mind-altering drugs and it's a bit disturbing that the kindly men talks so much about soothing totally reasonable fears.

The candles are described further here:

Quote

The second body was that of an old woman. She had gone to sleep on a dreaming couch, in one of the hidden alcoves where special candles conjured visions of things loved and lost. A sweet death and a gentle one, the kindly man was fond of saying. Her fingers told her that the old woman had died with a smile on her face [...]

Things loved and lost - true in all three cases.

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Some of the effects are just impossible - the taste of molten gold, or a mother's last kiss, the smell of Hodor laughing. They are all mind-altering drugs and it's a bit disturbing that the kindly men talks so much about soothing totally reasonable fears.

Yes, the drugs affect the senses; smell. ,sight, hearing, taste and touch and mix them up.  Synesthesia. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 6/10/2020 at 11:03 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Hey @The Lord of the Crossing 

I love all of this, and it fits perfectly with what I've been posting about regards the Celtic mythology & subterranean link. In Celtic myth when a mortal travels to the Underworld/Otherworld they experience time differently. In some cases the mortal will have been in the Underworld for mere weeks or days, yet when they return to our normal world hundreds of years could have passed.

Another name for the Celtic Otherworld is Tir-na-Nog which translates as 'Land of Youth'. This all fits nicely with what you mention, but also ties in with the extended years the greenseers seem to live.

Check out the novels of the late Tom Dietz.  His stories take place in Tir-Nan-Og. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 6/12/2020 at 2:16 PM, James West said:

Here is an interesting idea.  What if "king's blood" meant the descendants of the children of the Maiden Made of Light and the Lion of the Night?  Only those have the real magical abilities.  Mirri was one such person.  The magic blood, the right priestess as well as the right conditions are the ingredients to miracles.  Dany is the right priestess because she is Azor Ahai.  All she needs is the blood of somebody who was born with magic powers.  She has the ritual down.  

Ah and this is why Egg's attempt went wrong.  He misunderstood what king's blood meant.