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Who would've been the best ruler for Westeros?


TyrionsFlagon

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At the time of the first book, who do you think would've been the best king/queen for the realm?

I ask because my wife hates Ned and thinks every decision he made was a poor one. I asked her if she would like for Ned to be her boss/administrator. She said no. I told her Ned would've been a good king, which led to the discussion of which of the characters would've been the best monarch.

My choice would be Ned or Tywin. I think Cersei, LittleFinger, and Varys would be good options. Obviously Cersei was crazy by the time she was queen in Feast, but if she were Queen at the beginning of the first book- no Robert, no Tyrells, no threat from Stannis, she would've done well. 

Anyway, I'm interested to see what people think.

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Are you assuming the man became king after 15 years of Robert Baratheon's misrule, or after Aerys II was killed?

1. I would have recommended Rhaegar, had he not been dead. A bookish young man, highly educated, trained to rule, hard working, who upon realizing he'd need competence in the martial arts, went out and attained it. When his father had clearly become cuckoo-bananas, set up a Great Council so that the lords could choose a new king, 25th amendment style, and it would have worked had not Aerys invited himself to it, and Lyanna distinguished herself on the field.

Sadly, that's all gone. The man who would be king would need to be just, smart enough to have advisors and staff who were at least as smart as he, would need to care for the good of the realm as opposed to his own glories and gluttonies and neuroses, and politically astute enough to weather the backstabbing, toadying, and scheming of the capital city. Or maybe move the seat of government elsewhere.

2. Stannis Baratheon has many of these characteristics. He could have kept his big brother on as Master of War. It's really too bad that King Robert wasn't smart enough to at least make Stannis his Hand.

Tywin Lannister is too corrupt; too interested in furthering the interests of his own house, too brutal in my book.

3. Jon Arryn would have been too old, but might have been a good transitional figure.

Ned Stark has the decency and trustfulness of the North. We saw what that bought him in that nest of vipers, King's Landing. Note that he rode away from the capital city in disgust at what he'd seen, after the Lannisters had sacked it, and would have been a happy man if he'd never had to return there.

5. Tyrion Lannister actually looks pretty good on paper, and did surprisingly well as Hand, but was still condemned for being an ugly dwarf, an imp, a little monkey demon. On the other hand, if he was represented by some good-looking figurehead and his actual appearance kept secret, it might work.

 

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Ned, Tywin and Tyrion. Ned seems a little less able adminstrator but i don't think people would be as salty as they would be with Tywin or Tyrion. Stannis is a set up for a rebellion during two books. Ned is in anyway as incompetent as people portray him. He went to KL, with the sole intention of uncovering a plot and after that getting the hell away from there, he was well out of his element and did good until he chose compassion over common sense. Yet he started to understand his foes right before he fell. Had that not happened, Ned's control over King's Landing would eventually pretty strong.

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For a brief moment, Ned considered telling him all of it, but there was something in Littlefinger’s japes that irked him. The man was too clever by half, a mocking smile never far from his lips. “Jon Arryn was studying this volume when he was taken sick,” Ned said in a careful tone, to see how he might respond. And he responded as he always did: with a quip. “In that case,” he said, “death must have come as a blessed relief.” Lord Petyr Baelish bowed and took his leave. Eddard Stark allowed himself a curse. Aside from his own retainers, there was scarcely a man in this city he trusted. Littlefinger had concealed Catelyn and helped Ned in his inquiries, yet his haste to save his own skin when Jaime and his swords had come out of the rain still rankled. Varys was worse. For all his protestations of loyalty, the eunuch knew too much and did too little. Grand Maester Pycelle seemed more Cersei’s creature with every passing day, and Ser Barristan was an old man, and rigid. He would tell Ned to do his duty.

The best ruler will always be Goldenhand tho.

 

6 minutes ago, zandru said:

. I would have recommended Rhaegar, had he not been dead. A bookish young man, highly educated, trained to rule, hard working, who upon realizing he'd need competence in the martial arts, went out and attained it. When his father had clearly become cuckoo-bananas, set up a Great Council so that the lords could choose a new king, 25th amendment style, and it would have worked had not Aerys invited himself to it, and Lyanna distinguished herself on the field.

I mean... 

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Princess Daenerys was too young and inexperienced at the beginning of A Game of Thrones.  Otherwise she would be my chosen monarch to rule over Westeros. 

Tyrion and the other Lannisters are too corrupt.  The Martells are too caught up in the past.  The Starks are much too loyal to themselves to serve the realm. 

Mace Tyrell could do a good enough job.  Let him rule for five years and then Princess Daenerys will be ready to take her father's throne.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

 

Ned Stark has the decency and trustfulness of the North. We saw what that bought him in that nest of vipers, King's Landing. Note that he rode away from the capital city in disgust at what he'd seen, after the Lannisters had sacked it, and would have been a happy man if he'd never had to return there.

 

You're misinterpreting the North

Ned Stark's Northern traits are his ferocity, his bluntness, and his directness. What people call his "decency" is his burdensome sense of honour. And he got that from House Arryn. He grew up in the Vale, and he is thus obsessed with his honour to the point that it proves his undoing. The same happens to Robb, where his being his father's son is his undoing as well. Catelyn urges him to trust Grey Wind's judgment of men. Instead, Robb ignores his wolf, and thus his own best nature, and puts his faith in honour, either through marrying the girl who slept with him, or through trying to amend his honour by executing Rickard Karstark and trusting the Freys not to turn on him once he walks into their keep. If Robb hadn't lost faith in his direwolf, then he might have survived.

My point is that I'm getting tired of how misrepresented House Stark is by so many people. The Starks are wolves, and wolves are not honourable or noble. They're animals, savage animals that humans are still terrified of despite centuries of killing them. Yet they have endured far longer than we have as a species, and that explains in part why House Stark endured for millennia. All the kings of old were wolves, fierce and savage and direct. They lived a simple lifestyle, didn't bother with deception and trickery. The Starks outfought and outlasted all challengers, and things only fell apart in the main storyline because House Stark has moved away from its roots. But when winter comes, Starks will remember just how wolves survive, and we'll see them use their teeth again. We've already gotten hints of it through Wyman Manderly's gaoler reminiscing on the savage customs of the North, followed by Wyman using his Andal roots in a Northern fashion. He waits until the Freys are no longer his guests, then serves them up for dinner. Manderly is intelligent, but he's also a wolf in his own right; the wolf in a big blubbery seal's clothing. Rickon Stark was always a wild boy, and he's growing up on Skagos of all places. He's going to be another Hungry Wolf if he gets the chance, someone who will have no qualms with unleashing Shaggydog on his enemies. 

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3 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

You're misinterpreting the North

Ned Stark's Northern traits are his ferocity, his bluntness, and his directness. What people call his "decency" is his burdensome sense of honour. And he got that from House Arryn. He grew up in the Vale, and he is thus obsessed with his honour to the point that it proves his undoing. The same happens to Robb, where his being his father's son is his undoing as well. Catelyn urges him to trust Grey Wind's judgment of men. Instead, Robb ignores his wolf, and thus his own best nature, and puts his faith in honour, either through marrying the girl who slept with him, or through trying to amend his honour by executing Rickard Karstark and trusting the Freys not to turn on him once he walks into their keep. If Robb hadn't lost faith in his direwolf, then he might have survived.

My point is that I'm getting tired of how misrepresented House Stark is by so many people. The Starks are wolves, and wolves are not honourable or noble. They're animals, savage animals that humans are still terrified of despite centuries of killing them. Yet they have endured far longer than we have as a species, and that explains in part why House Stark endured for millennia. All the kings of old were wolves, fierce and savage and direct. They lived a simple lifestyle, didn't bother with deception and trickery. The Starks outfought and outlasted all challengers, and things only fell apart in the main storyline because House Stark has moved away from its roots. But when winter comes, Starks will remember just how wolves survive, and we'll see them use their teeth again. We've already gotten hints of it through Wyman Manderly's gaoler reminiscing on the savage customs of the North, followed by Wyman using his Andal roots in a Northern fashion. He waits until the Freys are no longer his guests, then serves them up for dinner. Manderly is intelligent, but he's also a wolf in his own right; the wolf in a big blubbery seal's clothing. Rickon Stark was always a wild boy, and he's growing up on Skagos of all places. He's going to be another Hungry Wolf if he gets the chance, someone who will have no qualms with unleashing Shaggydog on his enemies. 

Isn't this rant a bit irrelevant to the topic?

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Just now, Canon Claude said:

Isn't this rant a bit irrelevant to the topic?

Fine. I'll make it relevant. Wyman Manderly should have been King of the seven kingdoms at the start of the series. He's clearly capable of running things, given how wealthy and powerful his house is. He's also one of the most intelligent characters in the books, even though nobody realizes just how smart he is. And his being so underrated makes him even more dangerous. 

What also works is the fact that he is as smart as Tywin or Littlefinger, but unlike them, Wyman has a clear ethical code. He will find ways around his code, sure, but he still stands by his code no matter what. If Manderly was as power-hungry and ruthless as Tywin or Roose Bolton, he would have jumped House Stark's ship ages ago. He had so many opportunities to take advantage of House Stark, but he never did. And we never get any idea that his people suffer while under his rule. They seem pretty damn loyal to him, despite his neither being a warrior nor a known intellect (again, his intelligence and resourcefulness is not acknowledged).

 

With Wyman Manderly, you get Tyrion Lannister without all the insecurities. Wyman isn't tortured by doubt and bitterness towards men who mock him, he's happy to let people continue to underestimate him as he quietly secures the best position for himself no matter what. And he shows his worth by remaining loyal to House Stark even when it could cost him the life of his son. He deceives his enemies, finds ways to get revenge, and survives when so many others die. 

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I don’t think Ned would have been a good ruler, he is not politically savvy enough. Tywin is brutal, and would be hated by the people of King’s Landing and any Targaryen loyalists for what he did during the Sack. At the point of AGOT, Jaime and Cersei are too self-absorbed. Tyrion would be mistrusted by the smallfolk, and Robert is gluttonous. We don’t know Jon Arryn’s tenure as Hand went firsthand, the realm seems prosperous, but the Crown is deeply in debt. Varys would definitely not be trusted by anyone, and is not even Westerosi. Petyr Baelish is lowborn, and also untrustworthy. The Tyrells have too much self-interest. 

Stannis would be a just king, and he is a great commander, but he will need to win people’s love first. Renly or Doran might be good as well.

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4 hours ago, TyrionsFlagon said:

I ask because my wife hates Ned and thinks every decision he made was a poor one.

Like, literally almost all of them. (I hate him too. Hes so condescending for example) which brings us to his original decision

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"You should have taken the realm for yourself. It was there for the taking. Jaime told me how you found him on the Iron Throne the day King's Landing fell, and made him yield it up. That was your moment. All you needed to do was climb those steps, and sit. Such a sad mistake."

The thing is, more often then not, Neds not a decision maker. He kinda just stares blankly as the world passes by. Refusing to participate in the murder or the protection of Dany is a good example.

The seat was "meant" for Brandon, Ned never got accustomed to leadership, never wanted it. He liked serving, wiping down the IT of Aerys blood, even if he didn't like wiping it down of Dragonspawns. He liked executing Gareds in Roberts name, when it came to Ladys execution it started to get a little old.

Ned was a follower who didnt know what his king wanted, its no surprise his time as Hand was depressing and unsuccessful.

Ned would have been a far better king then Robert, at the very least his heir would have been monumentally better then Joffreys.

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2 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

And he shows his worth by remaining loyal to House Stark even when it could cost him the life of his son. He deceives his enemies, finds ways to get revenge, and survives when so many others die. 

Wylla Manderly is a fierce Stark loyalist and I suspect this reflects her father's true loyalties. 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Wylla_Manderly

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Westeros badly indebted to the Iron Bank.  Political skills nor battle courage are not the most important qualities needed by then.  Robert and Jon Arryn needed to leave.  The better choice is a real Targaryen who will have goodwill from the east.  Viserys was a prick but with a capable small council would have been fine wearing the crown.  Time will pass and he would marry his little sister.  She can keep him in line.

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41 minutes ago, McGuv19 said:

I don’t think Ned would have been a good ruler, he is not politically savvy enough.

I will not understand why people think this. 

 

4 minutes ago, Roswell said:

The better choice is a real Targaryen who will have goodwill from the east. 

The Targs had goodwill from the East??

 

 

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1 hour ago, Roswell said:

Viserys was a prick but with a capable small council would have been fine wearing the crown.  Time will pass and he would marry his little sister.  She can keep him in line.

That sounds really safe and promising for the future

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I will not understand why people think this. 

I can not understand how people say this

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3 hours ago, Roswell said:

Westeros badly indebted to the Iron Bank.  Political skills nor battle courage are not the most important qualities needed by then.  Robert and Jon Arryn needed to leave.  The better choice is a real Targaryen who will have goodwill from the east.  Viserys was a prick but with a capable small council would have been fine wearing the crown.  Time will pass and he would marry his little sister.  She can keep him in line.

Such a cute little fan fic.

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Jon Arryn seems to be the best choice. 

Ned was too inflexible, Robert too extravagant, the Tywin too self-serving, Tyrion too unpopular and  Cersei too short-sighted.

Jaime was too arrogant before he lost his hand and is generally uninterested in ruling. Stannis,though he did help Arryn in governing  the realm ,is at his peak only at the end of Storm of Swords and in DwD when Davos reminded him of duty.

So it seems that Arryn is the one best suited to be King. 

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