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TyrionsFlagon

Who would've been the best ruler for Westeros?

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15 hours ago, Roswell said:

Westeros badly indebted to the Iron Bank.  Political skills nor battle courage are not the most important qualities needed by then.  Robert and Jon Arryn needed to leave.  The better choice is a real Targaryen who will have goodwill from the east.  Viserys was a prick but with a capable small council would have been fine wearing the crown.  Time will pass and he would marry his little sister.  She can keep him in line.

  1. Renly Baratheon.  I can't stand the Baratheons but Renly would have been okay.  
  2. King Viserys III.  The Beggar King.  

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15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like when?

He managed to rule the North effeciently for 15 years, he built a solid base there, he was able to understand how Varys, Pycelle and LF works, he built a solid plan to get the throne that only failed due betrayal and he cornered Tywin when he sentenced Gregor to death and summoned Tywin to court, which only failed due to Robert's death.

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22 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Wyman Manderly should have been King of the seven kingdoms at the start of the series. He's clearly capable of running things, given how wealthy and powerful his house is. He's also one of the most intelligent characters in the books, even though nobody realizes just how smart he is. And his being so underrated makes him even more dangerous. 

Hear, hear! I'd considered adding Lord Wyman to my list, but wondered if he could get onto the Iron Throne without being skewered. What fat bigotry! My apologies. I'm surprised there hasn't been more love shown here for the Fat Man (now I'm doing it again...)

I would definitely leave Cersei off the list, though. From the very first chapters, she comes across as self-obsessed, vindictive, demanding, unempathetic, manipulative, and a little slutty. While I know most of these characteristics are pluses in a king, the "self-obsessed" and "vindictive" traits would be minuses for both queens and kings. As the books wend on, Cersei also comes across as not very bright, less interested in getting solid, expert information than just enough to confirm her prejudices or her first thoughts. She's prone to off the cuff decisions, often involving execution and torture. And, if you believe "but she loves her children", you've been watching too much teevie.

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Depends on what you mean by 'At the time of the first book' Jon Arryn who was managing the Kingdom for Robert anyway. His downside is his heir being breastfed, did he not know about that? 

Tywin is effective but he's monstrous. He has a strong heir (as King he releases him of his vows) but Jaime is in the lure of Cersei. 

Hoster Tully would have been a good candidate as he connects 3 of the Kingdoms of Westeros to his line, but again, Edmure is perhaps a weak heir. And he was on the verge of death,

Doran Martell would be a decent shot at the time of the first book, 2 sons as his heirs. Both seems OK. While he isn't in the first book, this was still true of him at the time of the first book. 

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3 hours ago, frenin said:

He managed to rule the North effeciently for 15 years, he built a solid base there,

Thats true, although there were lords, chiefly Dustin and Ryswell who felt resentment to Ned.

But however good he was at ruling his own realm, he showed no attention to the lands beyond the wall despite Mance gaining strength and crows deserting in greater numbers then ever before.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

he was able to understand how Varys,  works, 

When?

He mistrusted him the entire time, thinking he was the plague in Roberts SC, when in fact he was on Eddards side to keep Robert alive.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

 Pycelle 

When?

He repeatedly informed Pycelle of his plans to counter Cersei. Ned handed letter after letter, addressed to Stannis, to Pycelle and then kept wondering why he hasnt gotten a reply

3 hours ago, frenin said:

LF works, 

When?

Petyr told him Neds first reaction to mistrust him was correct, he didnt listen. 

 

.

He damned them all: Littlefinger, Janos Slynt and his gold cloaks, the queen, the Kingslayer, Pycelle and Varys and Ser Barristan, even Lord Renly, Robert's own blood, who had run when he was needed most. Yet in the end he blamed himself. "Fool," he cried to the darkness, "thrice-damned blind fool."

 .

 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

 he built a solid plan to get the throne that only failed due betrayal 

Whos betrayal? I dont see anything about using the master of coin to bribe the commander of the city watch to circumnavigate the KG and arrest a woman and child in the throne room to be a solid plan.

Especially when the game plan is Stannis, whom Petyr told Ned he didnt want, and Janos obviously felt the same

3 hours ago, frenin said:

 and he cornered Tywin when he sentenced Gregor to death and summoned Tywin to court, which only failed due to Robert's death.

How so? It was only a matter of time before the kingslayer took Riverrun, Robert or no Robert. The realm was at war, Tywin the lion is not brought down meekly

Plus if Ned didnt break his own leg then he would have been the one to get ambushed by Gregor instead of Beric. His plan didnt blow up even more in his face strictly because Jaimes a loose cannon.

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13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats true, although there were lords, chiefly Dustin and Ryswell who felt resentment to Ned.

And the Starks, Baratheons and Velaryons felt resentment towards Jaeharys and Alyssanne, you can't please everyone.

 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But however good he was at ruling his own realm, he showed no attention to the lands beyond the wall despite Mance gaining strength and crows deserting in greater numbers then ever before.

He said that if the threat increased he would have to call the banners to end Mace. He also had plans to resettle the gift and convincing the Watch to return the lands and handing them over to his bannermen, or creating other Houses, in exchange of them defending said lands and paying taxes to the Watch instead of the Iron Throne.

 

 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

When?

He mistrusted him the entire time, thinking he was the plague in Roberts SC, when in fact he was on Eddards side to keep Robert alive.

 

Quote

For a brief moment, Ned considered telling him all of it, but there was something in Littlefinger’s japes that irked him. The man was too clever by half, a mocking smile never far from his lips. “Jon Arryn was studying this volume when he was taken sick,” Ned said in a careful tone, to see how he might respond. And he responded as he always did: with a quip. “In that case,” he said, “death must have come as a blessed relief.” Lord Petyr Baelish bowed and took his leave. Eddard Stark allowed himself a curse. Aside from his own retainers, there was scarcely a man in this city he trusted. Littlefinger had concealed Catelyn and helped Ned in his inquiries, yet his haste to save his own skin when Jaime and his swords had come out of the rain still rankled. Varys was worse. For all his protestations of loyalty, the eunuch knew too much and did too little. Grand Maester Pycelle seemed more Cersei’s creature with every passing day, and Ser Barristan was an old man, and rigid. He would tell Ned to do his duty.

Ned needed time to adjust as anyone needs to a new position that is out of his confort zone.

 

 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He repeatedly informed Pycelle of his plans to counter Cersei. Ned handed letter after letter, addressed to Stannis, to Pycelle and then kept wondering why he hasnt gotten a reply

When he informed him of his plans to counter Cersei?? 

Stannis got the letters, he was just waiting for dear old Robert to die.

 

 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Petyr told him Neds first reaction to mistrust him was correct, he didnt listen. 

He did listen, he needed and temporal ally and his own wife was the alledged common friend between the two of them and encouraged Ned to trust him.

 

 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Whos betrayal? I dont see anything about using the master of coin to bribe the commander of the city watch to circumnavigate the KG and arrest a woman and child in the throne room to be a solid plan.

Especially when the game plan is Stannis, whom Petyr told Ned he didnt want, and Janos obviously felt the same

LF’s, the man who promised help him and then backstabbed him.  

Why wasn't a solid plan?? Wouldn't have it work If he was not betrayed??

 

 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

How so? It was only a matter of time before the kingslayer took Riverrun, Robert or no Robert. The realm was at war, Tywin the lion is not brought down meekly

With what army?? Certainly not Tywin's the lion. Taking Riverrun by storm is a hell of ride.

And there was no war while Robert was alive, only Tywin brigands trying to goad the Tullys into breaking the King's Peace.

 

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Plus if Ned didnt break his own leg then he would have been the one to get ambushed by Gregor instead of Beric. His plan didnt blow up even more in his face strictly because Jaimes a loose cannon.

If Ned didn't break his leg he was out of King's Landing since that was the only reason he made peace with Robert.

That's why "Tywin's" plans is so damn absurd, beyond being suicide. Not that it was his plans anyway.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

He said that if the threat increased he would have to call the banners to end Mace. He also had plans to resettle the gift and convincing the Watch to return the lands and handing them over to his bannermen, or creating other Houses, in exchange of them defending said lands and paying taxes to the Watch instead of the Iron Throne.

He talked and planned. Nothing short of procrastination, then as Hand and ruler of Westeros he never acted once on any of this

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Ned needed time to adjust as anyone needs to a new position that is out of his confort zone.

So what? He never adjusted to Varys even though he would have been an ally to keep Robert alive.

Ned did not figure out how Varys, nor anyone, works

1 hour ago, frenin said:

When he informed him of his plans to counter Cersei?? 

Stannis got the letters, he was just waiting for dear old Robert to die.

When Ned checked out the book.

Do we know Stannis got the letters? Even so, he knew they came from Pycelles

1 hour ago, frenin said:

He did listen, he needed and temporal ally and his own wife was the alledged common friend between the two of them and encouraged Ned to trust him.

So... He didnt listen

1 hour ago, frenin said:

LF’s, the man who promised help him and then backstabbed him.  

How was that a betrayal? Petyr owes no oaths to Ned

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Why wasn't a solid plan??

Because its stupid. Every part of it is ridiculous. Ned should have used his own men, or bribe Janos himself. Nor should he have made his move in open court under Selmys watch

1 hour ago, frenin said:

With what army?? Certainly not Tywin's the lion. Taking Riverrun by storm is a hell of ride.

Jaime took Riverrun

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And there was no war while Robert was alive, only Tywin brigands trying to goad the Tullys into breaking the King's Peace.

Thats war

1 hour ago, frenin said:

If Ned didn't break his leg he was out of King's Landing since that was the only reason he made peace with Robert.

Why do you think that?

1 hour ago, frenin said:

That's why "Tywin's" plans is so damn absurd, beyond being suicide. Not that it was his plans anyway.

That was his plan

 

.

Only six Winterfell men remained of the twenty her father had sent west with Beric Dondarrion, Harwin told her, and they were scattered. "It was a trap, milady. Lord Tywin sent his Mountain across the Red Fork with fire and sword, hoping to draw your lord father. He planned for Lord Eddard to come west himself to deal with Gregor Clegane. If he had he would have been killed, or taken prisoner and traded for the Imp, who was your lady mother's captive at the time. Only the Kingslayer never knew Lord Tywin's plan, and when he heard about his brother's capture he attacked your father in the streets of King's Landing."

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7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He talked and planned. Nothing short of procrastination, then as Hand and ruler of Westeros he never acted once on any of this

He went to KL with one purpose, find wtf had happened with old Jon and then get the hell out of King's Landing. Then he tries to uncover the Lannister plot. All or that are pretty pressing matters.

Besides he himself said that the Watch thing should have to wait for spring and that he would only march against Mance if he grew getting bolder.

 

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So what? He never adjusted to Varys even though he would have been an ally to keep Robert alive.

Ned did not figure out how Varys, nor anyone, works

Varys didn't have the swords Ned needed at the time.

No, he started to understand them.

 

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

When Ned checked out the book.

Do we know Stannis got the letters? Even so, he knew they came from Pycelles

Who tells you that he did?? Neither Pycelle nor Cersei do.

He knew they came from Ned, as in Ned the Hand of the King had sent it.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So... He didnt listen

No, he did listen. Did you just miss the rest.

 

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

How was that a betrayal? Petyr owes no oaths to Ned

But Petyr made a very specific one over the love he had for Ned's wifey.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because its stupid. Every part of it is ridiculous. Ned should have used his own men, or bribe Janos himself. Nor should he have made his move in open court under Selmys watch

- It's a very good plan actually.

- Ned's men weren't available, he had sent to the Riverlands.

- Ned didn't know how Janos costed and Janos was Lf's man regardless.

- Selmy would not have done much, because Ned's plan was first being installed as regent and then calling Stannis and telling the truth.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Jaime took Riverrun

By convincing its lord yo yield it, not by taking it by storm. And ofc after Robert died.

 

25 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats war

No, it isn't... Like by definition.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/war?s=t

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/war

 

28 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why do you think that?

Because Ned had resigned and was ready to leave when Jaime attacked him.

 

29 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

That was his plan

No, that's what Harwin believes his plan, I don't have a good opinion of Tywin but i don't consider the man an idiot and that plan... Well, it's not a good one.

 

 

 

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On 5/24/2020 at 12:49 PM, TyrionsFlagon said:

At the time of the first book, who do you think would've been the best king/queen for the realm?

I ask because my wife hates Ned and thinks every decision he made was a poor one. I asked her if she would like for Ned to be her boss/administrator. She said no. I told her Ned would've been a good king, which led to the discussion of which of the characters would've been the best monarch.

My choice would be Ned or Tywin. I think Cersei, LittleFinger, and Varys would be good options. Obviously Cersei was crazy by the time she was queen in Feast, but if she were Queen at the beginning of the first book- no Robert, no Tyrells, no threat from Stannis, she would've done well. 

Anyway, I'm interested to see what people think.

It had to go the way it did in order for Daenerys Targaryen to not only be born but be reborn as Azor Ahai and bring back the dragons.  She is the Promised Princess after all.

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On 5/25/2020 at 9:05 AM, frenin said:

He managed to rule the North effeciently for 15 years, he built a solid base there, he was able to understand how Varys, Pycelle and LF works, he built a solid plan to get the throne that only failed due betrayal and he cornered Tywin when he sentenced Gregor to death and summoned Tywin to court, which only failed due to Robert's death.

Is Ned the best politician or administrator? No, but Ned is definitely underestimated as a politician because of hindsight and plot necessity, in order for GRRM to pull off AGoT ending and pass the torch to a new Stark generation, he had to fail. Other posters on various threads have discussed "presentism" and hindsight being 20-20. Of course Ned should've seen it all coming! However he doesn't have the reader's perspective, his POV is more limited than our own. Did he make serious mistakes? Absolutely, yet is he a complete political incompetent? I think not, he engendered surpringly lasting loyalty for House Stark even after his death such as the Mountain clans still fighting for "the Ned's" daughter in ADWD even after his death and the Sack of Winterfell.

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Lord Varys.  He cares about realms, have necessary experience and expertise to became a great rules. He always reminded me Cardinal Richelieu : pulling the strings from the shadow, making the right decisions for the weak ruler. With Illyrio, as master of coin, they could have archived a new golden age for Westeros.

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You know this whole discussion kinda gave me a revelation. I never once really gave thought to who I would like to see on the throne, only the people i don't. I guess I truly I don't care as it's still a feudal kingdom with feudal values and a feudal leader. Way I see it unless the next ass on the throne writes up a constitution, restricts the power of the lords, and starts giving more social and financial mobility to the smallfolk, then I say burn it all down and hit the reset button until people can learn how not to be complete bastards.

But if I had to choose I guess I have a few people in mind. I guess Jon SNOW if he can be more like his book self and not the bumbling idiot in the show. Margery wouldn't be too bad as she's not exactly cruel or cold and can at least look at commoners without sneering. Tyrion wouldn't be a bad idea at all as most of his faults and huge mistakes come from how the world perceives him, so if he could somehow reign lords in and earn some much needed respect and keep it he COULD do a fine job as 'King of Giants' I think. Sansa maybe, as for some reason I think if she could get the correct training and mindset for it she could easily be a mafia like leader in the vein of Al Capone, which could work really well in Westeros. Less seriously and likely.....Davos. He's my hero and I kinda want to see a a really happy ending to this whole thing that I know I'm not going to get, so just put Shireen on the throne and let her be the adorable munchkin she is, while Davos does as Davos does, be Hand.    

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On 5/25/2020 at 7:21 PM, frenin said:

Varys didn't have the swords Ned needed at the time.

The spider still had power, and would have been a useful ally towards Ned, however Eddard never trusted him or utilized his skill

On 5/25/2020 at 7:21 PM, frenin said:

No, he started to understand them.

When? When Petyrs knife was at his throat? When Varys seemingly magically appeared in the black cells?

On 5/25/2020 at 7:21 PM, frenin said:

Who tells you that he did?? Neither Pycelle nor Cersei do.

Why wouldn't Pycelle? He admits to betraying hands in favor of Lannisters

On 5/25/2020 at 7:21 PM, frenin said:

He knew they came from Ned, as in Ned the Hand of the King had sent it.

He probably never got them

On 5/25/2020 at 7:21 PM, frenin said:

No, he did listen. Did you just miss the rest.

He listened to Cat, not Pete.

I dont even understand how this is up for discussion

Quote

As his men died around him, Littlefinger slid Ned's dagger from its sheath and shoved it up under his chin. His smile was apologetic. "I did warn you not to trust me, you know."

 

On 5/25/2020 at 7:21 PM, frenin said:

But Petyr made a very specific one over the love he had for Ned's wifey.

LF swore an oath of loyalty to Ned?

On 5/25/2020 at 7:21 PM, frenin said:

- It's a very good plan actually.

Lmao, its really not. Thats why it failed

On 5/25/2020 at 7:21 PM, frenin said:

- Ned's men weren't available, he had sent to the Riverlands.

(Sent em to the RL, some with Lady, others to police the tourney, he kept shedding his soldiers.) Then he should have came up with a different plan

On 5/25/2020 at 7:21 PM, frenin said:

- Ned didn't know how Janos costed 

Because he was a fool

On 5/25/2020 at 7:21 PM, frenin said:

Janos was Lf's man regardless.

Ok, he wasnt. This is exactly Eddard like thinking. Janos, like every other human on this blue rock we call the world, is his own man. 

The game is not Cyvesse. People have their own thoughts and interests.

On 5/25/2020 at 7:21 PM, frenin said:

- Selmy would not have done much, because Ned's plan was first being installed as regent and then calling Stannis and telling the truth.

Selmy was present when Ned tried to arrest Cersei and Joff. Arguably the greatest warrior ever.

On 5/25/2020 at 7:21 PM, frenin said:

Because Ned had resigned and was ready to leave when Jaime attacked him.

Which is why he stayed, to finish the fight with Jaime. Not because his leg broke

On 5/25/2020 at 7:21 PM, frenin said:

No, that's what Harwin believes his plan, I don't have a good opinion of Tywin but i don't consider the man an idiot and that plan... Well, it's not a good one.

Whats wrong with the plan? It worked. And if Ned went instead of Beric he would have been captured. 

Harwin believes that was the plan, because it clearly was

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43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The spider still had power, and would have been a useful ally towards Ned, however Eddard never trusted him or utilized his skill.

He trusted his reports and acted on them.

 

46 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

When? When Petyrs knife was at his throat? When Varys seemingly magically appeared in the black cells?

 

Quote

For a brief moment, Ned considered telling him all of it, but there was something in Littlefinger’s japes that irked him. The man was too clever by half, a mocking smile never far from his lips. “Jon Arryn was studying this volume when he was taken sick,” Ned said in a careful tone, to see how he might respond. And he responded as he always did: with a quip. “In that case,” he said, “death must have come as a blessed relief.” Lord Petyr Baelish bowed and took his leave. Eddard Stark allowed himself a curse. Aside from his own retainers, there was scarcely a man in this city he trusted. Littlefinger had concealed Catelyn and helped Ned in his inquiries, yet his haste to save his own skin when Jaime and his swords had come out of the rain still rankled. Varys was worse. For all his protestations of loyalty, the eunuch knew too much and did too little. Grand Maester Pycelle seemed more Cersei’s creature with every passing day, and Ser Barristan was an old man, and rigid. He would tell Ned to do his duty.

Way before that.

 

 

48 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why wouldn't Pycelle? He admits to betraying hands in favor of Lannisters

And weird enough he  doesn't admit messing with Stannis in any way.

 

49 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

For a brief moment, Ned considered telling him all of it, but there was something in Littlefinger’s japes that irked him. The man was too clever by half, a mocking smile never far from his lips. “Jon Arryn was studying this volume when he was taken sick,” Ned said in a careful tone, to see how he might respond. And he responded as he always did: with a quip. “In that case,” he said, “death must have come as a blessed relief.” Lord Petyr Baelish bowed and took his leave. Eddard Stark allowed himself a curse. Aside from his own retainers, there was scarcely a man in this city he trusted. Littlefinger had concealed Catelyn and helped Ned in his inquiries, yet his haste to save his own skin when Jaime and his swords had come out of the rain still rankled. Varys was worse. For all his protestations of loyalty, the eunuch knew too much and did too little. Grand Maester Pycelle seemed more Cersei’s creature with every passing day, and Ser Barristan was an old man, and rigid. He would tell Ned to do his duty.

He did but he was rather busy marshalling an army and hiring sellswords.

 

49 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He listened to Cat, not Pete.

I dont even understand how this is up for discussion

He listened  to both but at the time he needed LF and thought that because of Cat he would behave.

 

 

50 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

LF swore an oath of loyalty to Ned?

He swore that he would give him the Gold Cloaks. Man seriously??

 

 

51 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lmao, its really not. Thats why it failed

Sure, because good plans can't fail. It failed simply because  Petyr betrayed Ned.

 

 

52 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

(Sent em to the RL, some with Lady, others to police the tourney, he kept shedding his soldiers.) Then he should have came up with a different plan

Sure at the time he didn't know that he would need to stage a coup. And again, his plan was fine.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He listened to Cat, not Pete.

I dont even understand how this is up for discussion

He was a fool for not knowing how much they cost or even if they cost something??

 

54 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, he wasnt. This is exactly Eddard like thinking. Janos, like every other human on this blue rock we call the world, is his own man. 

The game is not Cyvesse. People have their own thoughts and interests.

They do, but we can infer that Ned is Robert's man even if he has his own thoughts and interests and we can infer that Pycelle is a Lannister man.

Well, Janos was Petyr's.

 

56 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Selmy was present when Ned tried to arrest Cersei and Joff. Arguably the greatest warrior ever.

And?? 

 

56 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, he wasnt. This is exactly Eddard like thinking. Janos, like every other human on this blue rock we call the world, is his own man. 

The game is not Cyvesse. People have their own thoughts and interests.

He stayed because Ned reappointed him as Hand.

 

57 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Whats wrong with the plan? It worked. And if Ned went instead of Beric he would have been captured. 

Harwin believes that was the plan, because it clearly was

It's suicidal and the only reason it worked... Yet again was because Robert's and Ned's downfalls.  And to the later, well one can only hope.

Harwin believes it the plan because they were attacked.

 

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23 minutes ago, frenin said:

He trusted his reports and acted on them.

When?

24 minutes ago, frenin said:

Way before that.

How? By mistrusting him?

On 5/25/2020 at 12:05 PM, frenin said:

, he was able to understand how Varys, Pycelle and LF works

Mistrusting Varys is in not understanding how he works

26 minutes ago, frenin said:

And weird enough he  doesn't admit messing with Stannis in any way.

Why would he mention that?

Weird enough we get no info from Stannis that Ned wrote him

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

He listened  to both but at the time he needed LF and thought that because of Cat he would behave.

He heard them. He understood the words when Pete says dont trust me...but he still trusts him.

Again, clearly not understanding how LF works

29 minutes ago, frenin said:

Sure at the time he didn't know that he would need to stage a coup.

Its simple trappings of power. Melisandre tried to explain that to Jon but in this regard he was as dumb as his father

31 minutes ago, frenin said:

He swore that he would give him the Gold Cloaks. Man seriously??

He said he would. Not really a promise. I guess you can say he betrayed Cat.

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

He was a fool for not knowing how much they cost or even if they cost something??

Yes, obviously. Janos is a high ranking civil servant, you cant just hand him a briefcase

I truly dont understand how Ned was so politically inept that he didnt feel Janos out personally.

Like, whatd he imagine would happen? lF shows up with two bags of money with a $ sign on it like a damn cartoon?

We see Petyr bribe someone in affc, he makes no mention of money nor political strife, only honors and gratitudes. 

42 minutes ago, frenin said:

They do, but we can infer that Ned is Robert's man even if he has his own thoughts and interests and we can infer that Pycelle is a Lannister man.

Well, Janos was Petyr's.

Ned liked Robert but was not blindly loyal to him, as we see with Dany and his will.

Stannis says he would have executed Janos if they were back at court... Why would Janos ever be on board with that?

45 minutes ago, frenin said:

And?? 

And arresting the king while the greatest KG ever is present is fucking dumb

On 5/25/2020 at 4:59 PM, frenin said:

If Ned didn't break his leg he was out of King's Landing since that was the only reason he made peace with Robert.

 

50 minutes ago, frenin said:

He stayed because Ned reappointed him as Hand.

There ya go

51 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's suicidal and the only reason it worked... Yet again was because Robert's and Ned's downfalls.  And to the later, well one can only hope.

Harwin believes it the plan because they were attacked.

Harwin was attacked because that was the plan. Tywin sent Gregor out to lay an ambush, Ned sent out Loras to kill him. 

Nothing about the events in KL can possibly change what happened.

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Tyrion is the man !

He did a very good job as the Hand of the King, he should be the one in charge.

 

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1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

When?

In King's Landing.

 

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

How? By mistrusting him?

Yes. 

 

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Mistrusting Varys is in not understanding how he works

Sure, he didn't know the man was in cahoots with the Martells and the Lord of Cheese yo bring war on Westeros an overthrow the dynasty he installed.

 

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why would he mention that?

Weird enough we get no info from Stannis that Ned wrote him

He was mentioning all his loyal services, weird enough not mentioning Stannis.

Stannis has no reason to say it, he would be admitting he is a petty man and a traitor.

 

Quote

He heard them. He understood the words when Pete says dont trust me...but he still trusts him.

Again, clearly not understanding how LF works

Again ignoring context. 

 

 

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its simple trappings of power. Melisandre tried to explain that to Jon but in this regard he was as dumb as his father

Ned did not dismiss his whole household and he was still the Hand of the King, nor would he have needed them... If Robert hadn't died.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He said he would. Not really a promise. I guess you can say he betrayed Cat.

He swore it over Cat.

 

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yes, obviously. Janos is a high ranking civil servant, you cant just hand him a briefcase

I truly dont understand how Ned was so politically inept that he didnt feel Janos out personally.

Like, whatd he imagine would happen? lF shows up with two bags of money with a $ sign on it like a damn cartoon?

We see Petyr bribe someone in affc, he makes no mention of money nor political strife, only honors and gratitudes. 

Because having a go between usually is safer. 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ned liked Robert but was not blindly loyal to him, as we see with Dany and his will.

Stannis says he would have executed Janos if they were back at court... Why would Janos ever be on board with that?

- I've never said that he was blindly loyal. I said he was loyal.

- Because he would just arresting Cersei and as far as Janos knows, Stannis had nothing against him.

 

 

33 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And arresting the king while the greatest KG ever is present is fucking dumb

Greatest KG or not, Barri is one man against a lot and old and Ned wanted to be confirmed as regent, then he would've have the authority to do whatever.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

There ya go

Should i explain it better??

After Ned's fallout with Robert, he was out of King's Landing. Ned's accident is the only thing that make Robert and Ned "patch things up" and be reinstalled as Hand. This scene.

 

Quote

“Your Grace,” Ned Stark said, “we must talk …” Robert pressed his fingertips against his temples. “I am sick unto death of talk. On the morrow I’m going to the kingswood to hunt. Whatever you have to say can wait until I return.” “If the gods are good, I shall not be here on your return. You commanded me to return to Winterfell, remember?” Robert stood up, grasping one of the bedposts to steady himself. “The gods are seldom good, Ned. Here, this is yours.” He pulled the heavy silver hand clasp from a pocket in the lining of his cloak and tossed it on the bed. “Like it or not, you are my Hand, damn you. I forbid you to leave.” Ned picked up the silver clasp. He was being given no choice, it seemed. His leg throbbed, and he felt as helpless as a child. “The Targaryen girl—” The king groaned. “Seven hells, don’t start with her again. That’s done, I’ll hear no more of it.” “Why would you want me as your Hand, if you refuse to listen to my counsel?” “Why?” Robert laughed. “Why not? Someone has to rule this damnable kingdom. Put on the badge, Ned. It suits you. And if you ever throw it in my face again, I swear to you, I’ll pin the damned thing on Jaime Lannister.”

Never happens.

 

42 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Harwin was attacked because that was the plan. Tywin sent Gregor out to lay an ambush, Ned sent out Loras to kill him. 

Nothing about the events in KL can possibly change what happened.

Harwin was attacked because Ned was not leading anything and Robert was likely already dead.

Hmm yes, Kidnapp the Hand of the King and the Hound has the whole Realm up on his ass, which again didn't happen because...

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What qualities is required in a ruler? What would make Ned, Tywin, Robert, Stannis, etc the best one to rule? 

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