Robert giving Renly Storm's End was stupid

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? Surely making him Master of Ships and giving him a seat that is pretty close to the capital, means he was making Stannis stick around, not moving him on.

Yeah, that's the case.

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin did exactly that when his grandson was the King, he gave Kevan and Genna Riverrun and Darry and was trying to manoeuvrer Tyrion into becoming the Lord Protector of the North.

But Tywin wasn't throwing key lordships at his siblings and nephews which could ever endanger the succession of his own children to Casterly Rock or the Iron Throne. He was not endangering his family, he was trying to strengthen them.

Robert, on the other hand, gave the lordship that had been the seat of the Heir Apparent since Aegon the Uncrowned and Prince Aemon to a brother he didn't get along with all that well, and then he bestowed his own seat which was one of the great seats of the Realm to a preteen boy. That is just not very smart.

If we imagine he was doing that to strengthen the family the Tywin way - for which we have no indication since George never bothered to elaborate as to why Robert gave Dragonstone to Stannis, Storm's End to Renly, or why he felt his brothers were qualified to sit on his council - then he failed at that in the sense that he failed to instill a sense of loyalty, responsibility, decency, and obedience in his brothers.

I blame him less for Stannis, since the boy was barely a year younger than Robert, but Renly was in a very real sense Robert's child as much as he was his biological father. Lord Steffon died when Renly was but one year old, meaning Robert as Lord of Storm's End would have been Renly's legal guardian and foster father. Yet he completely failed at instilling a sense of loyalty towards the family - and that means Robert's wife and children after he had become king - in the boy. Instead, Renly grew into a self-involved, ambitious prick who thought looking like King Robert entitled him to become a king himself.

Compare that to the relationship Tywin has with his siblings - they knew their place. Robert's brothers did not.

This goes back to the standard issue I have with the Renly character. We have no idea who that person was, no idea how his relationship with Robert was, how and why he got Storm's End, where he grew up, who he squired with, where he lived for the most part of his life, how he ended up on the Small Council, why he didn't get along with the queen and wanted to replace her, etc.

If we are honest, we don't even know why Renly wanted to be king. We don't know to what degree he was honest in his talks with Catelyn and Stannis, especially since we clearly knew he lied/exaggerate when talking about his own Targaryen ancestry, the Dornish support he was expecting, and that he expected Stannis to not challenge him (which he told Catelyn after he had already received and read the letter where Stannis talked about the twincest and his intention to take the Iron Throne for himself).

3 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Stannis betrayed his king for Robert and fought against that king.  He was owed from his view of things.  Of course he repeats this when he spoke out against Joffrey.  

That is Stannis' self-importance talking - he was just a landless knight when Robert rebelled. He had no special relationship with his king. If Stannis had been one of Aerys II's or Rhaegar's household knights, sworn swords, etc. or if the king had made him a lord or a landed knight there would have been a clear conflict of interest there. But unless we are missing something Stannis Baratheon never swore a single vow of fealty or obedience or anything to King Aerys II while he would have acknowledged his brother Robert as his new liege lord the very night the Baratheon watched their parents drowning.

28 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Renly was six when the war ended. You can't tell that a child is going to grow up to be a populist power willing to wrestle power from their relatives. If Robert died randomly five years into his reign without a legitimate child, Stannis would have become king unopposed.

I don't think that's very likely. Stannis is so unpopular that they would have done anything in their power to prevent that. None of Robert's friends and allies would have felt the same loyalty and friendship they felt for Robert. The lords may have crowned Renly or invited Viserys III to take the crown rather than to suffer a man like Stannis as their king. And the Greyjoy Rebellion should have been much more successful if Stannis had been the king trying to crush it.

The people going with Stannis really have no other choice. Nobody likes him, especially not most of the people who follow him.

28 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Robert was hoping that he would die at an age where a legitimate son was able to take over. I really can't blame him for not being able to see that in 15 years a whole chain of events would take place leading to his death and civil war involving both his brothers.

Well, he knew how rotten his reign was during his last years. Lordships can be given and taken away. If Renly and Stannis didn't work out as lords in their own right then the king can take those lordships back.

[frenin]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But Tywin wasn't throwing key lordships at his siblings and nephews which could ever endanger the succession of his own children to Casterly Rock or the Iron Throne. He was not endangering his family, he was trying to strengthen them.

Tywin does not have a proper succesion of the Iron Throne, Robert giving his own brothers powerful seats also strengthen the Baratheons. But if you say that things go south, ofc they can.

 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert, on the other hand, gave the lordship that had been the seat of the Heir Apparent since Aegon the Uncrowned and Prince Aemon to a brother he didn't get along with all that well, and then he bestowed his own seat which was one of the great seats of the Realm to a preteen boy. That is just not very smart.

Why?? Stannis had been anything but loyal and Renly was perfectly suited to Storm's End. Why is not very smart.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I blame him less for Stannis, since the boy was barely a year younger than Robert, but Renly was in a very real sense Robert's child as much as he was his biological father. Lord Steffon died when Renly was but one year old, meaning Robert as Lord of Storm's End would have been Renly's legal guardian and foster father. Yet he completely failed at instilling a sense of loyalty towards the family - and that means Robert's wife and children after he had become king - in the boy. Instead, Renly grew into a self-involved, ambitious prick who thought looking like King Robert entitled him to become a king himself.

No, Renly was Robert's brother. No foster son. 

Renly was perfectly fine with his nephew inheriting while Ned was at charge, he was less fine with his nephew inheriting and the Lannisters still running the show. It's less about loyalty and more about self preservation.

 

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Compare that to the relationship Tywin has with his siblings - they knew their place. Robert's brothers did not.

What place was that, bar Kevan, they all chafed behind his shadow.

 

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This goes back to the standard issue I have with the Renly character. We have no idea who that person was, no idea how his relationship with Robert was, how and why he got Storm's End, where he grew up, who he squired with, where he lived for the most part of his life, how he ended up on the Small Council, why he didn't get along with the queen and wanted to replace her, etc.

- Robert and Renly were never close, but got along well and Renly stood beside him on his deathbed.

- He got Storm's End because Robert gave it to him and because Robert wanted to do it.

-  I'd say that he grew up in Storm's End but...

- Robert wanted to bring his brother to the Small Council.

- We can make our bets, the Lannisters (the principal ones) aren't really nice and bar Tyrion they have a hard time hiding it. If you add naked ambition and the influence they had over his brother is easy to see how, when and why.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If we are honest, we don't even know why Renly wanted to be king. We don't know to what degree he was honest in his talks with Catelyn and Stannis, especially since we clearly knew he lied/exaggerate when talking about his own Targaryen ancestry, the Dornish support he was expecting, and that he expected Stannis to not challenge him (which he told Catelyn after he had already received and read the letter where Stannis talked about the twincest and his intention to take the Iron Throne for himself)

- We very much know why he wants to be King.

- He didn't lie  about his Targ ancestry, it was a offhand comment that showcased Renly's opinion on the matter.

- He expected the Dornish to join him.

- Ditto with Stannis.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think that's very likely. Stannis is so unpopular that they would have done anything in their power to prevent that. None of Robert's friends and allies would have felt the same loyalty and friendship they felt for Robert. The lords may have crowned Renly or invited Viserys III to take the crown rather than to suffer a man like Stannis as their king. And the Greyjoy Rebellion should have been much more successful if Stannis had been the king trying to crush it.

The people going with Stannis really have no other choice. Nobody likes him, especially not most of the people who follow him.

It is very likely. The Starks would've supported him, ditto with the Stormlands, ditto with the Vale and ditto with the Riverlands.  That's 4 Kingdoms and the rest don't have a reason to either dislike him or like him. And the Greyjoys would've been worst if Stannis was the King trying to crush them, because the three Greyjoy brothers sure as hell would lose their drowned heads. The Lords would not have crowned Renly out of the blue and while the succesion seem stable and it is since Stannis is close to Robert so the thing goes smoothly.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, he knew how rotten his reign was during his last years. Lordships can be given and taken away. If Renly and Stannis didn't work out as lords in their own right then the king can take those lordships back.

What his brothers had done for him to attaint them?? And both @Vaith and OP are talking about him when he made the decision.

[Peach King]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This goes back to the standard issue I have with the Renly character. We have no idea who that person was, no idea how his relationship with Robert was, how and why he got Storm's End, where he grew up, who he squired with, where he lived for the most part of his life, how he ended up on the Small Council, why he didn't get along with the queen and wanted to replace her, etc.

If we are honest, we don't even know why Renly wanted to be king. We don't know to what degree he was honest in his talks with Catelyn and Stannis, especially since we clearly knew he lied/exaggerate when talking about his own Targaryen ancestry, the Dornish support he was expecting, and that he expected Stannis to not challenge him (which he told Catelyn after he had already received and read the letter where Stannis talked about the twincest and his intention to take the Iron Throne for himself).

You're really exaggerating how underdeveloped Renly is - of course, he's a tertiary character who's mostly a plot device. Renly doesn't require more characterization than someone like Lancel.

Anyway, all these questions are easily answered, with some speculation.

Quote

no idea how his relationship with Robert was

Stannis says Renly worshipped Robert growing up. Later we see Renly saying that Robert disliked "counting coppers" and the duties of being king, and that he would be a better king than Robert to Catelyn. IMO the takeaway from this is that Renly loved Robert growing up, grew disappointed with him when he turned out not to be the hero he envisioned but a fat drunken oaf (though he might still have had some fondness for him), and ultimately decided he could do what Robert could not.

Quote

how and why he got Storm's End

"How" - because Robert was king and he could do what he wanted. "Why" - GRRM says Renly got Storm's End because of Robert's careless generosity.  Cersei says Robert gave Stannis Dragonstone and Renly Storm's End as a slight to Stannis. Stannis also think it's a slight, but Cressen says he was given Dragonstone and Renly Storm's End because Robert needed a strong man to rule there and Renly was a child.

Quote

where he grew up

Quote

“Your brother has been the Lord of Storm’s End these past thirteen years. These lords are his sworn bannermen—”

- A Clash of Kings, Prologue.

"These past thirteen years" - that means Renly was given Storm's End at the age of eight, and he was at the Siege of Storm's End along with Stannis and Cressen, so we can safely conclude he grew up there.

Quote

who he squired with

He was most probably not squired with anyone since he was Lord of Storm's End from a young age, and it wouldn't be a wise political move to place a Lord of a powerful castle in someone else's hands. 

Quote

where he lived for the most part of his life

I'd probably say he lived in Storm's End for most of his life and his appointment to the Small Council was recent.

Quote

how he ended up on the Small Council,

Because of nepotism.

Quote

why he didn't get along with the queen and wanted to replace her, etc.

Renly didn't get along with Cersei because of politics. Cersei's cruelty was not a secret and considering how Catelyn wanted Jon gone from Winterfell because his claim or his children's claims could challenge Robb's,  to Cersei, Renly would also be a threat, being popular and well connected and being in line for the throne. Once Robert bit it she might even have tried to wrest Storm's End from Renly and give it to Tommen.

Quote

If we are honest, we don't even know why Renly wanted to be king.

Cressen tells us why Renly wanted to be king:

Quote

Even as a boy, Renly had loved bright colors and rich fabrics, and he had loved his games as well. “Look at me!” he would shout as he ran laughing through the halls of Storm’s End. “Look at me, I’m a dragon,” or “Look at me, I’m a wizard,” or “Look at me, look at me, I’m the rain god.”

The bold little boy with wild black hair and laughing eyes was a man grown now, one-and-twenty, and still he played his games. Look at me, I’m a king, Cressen thought sadly.

- A Clash of Kings, Prologue.

Renly tells us why he wanted to be king:

Quote

 

On the night of Robert’s death, I offered your husband a hundred swords and urged him to take Joffrey into his power. Had he listened, he would be regent today, and there would have been no need for me to claim the throne.”

“Ned refused you.” She did not have to be told.
“He had sworn to protect Robert’s children,” Renly said. “I lacked the strength to act alone, so when Lord Eddard turned me away, I had no choice but to flee. Had I stayed, I knew the queen would see to it that I did not long outlive my brother.”

A Clash of Kings, Catelyn II

 

So it was mostly self preservation, oh and popularity didn't hurt. 

Quote

especially since we clearly knew he lied/exaggerate when talking about his own Targaryen ancestry

Renly used to say books were for maesters. I'd say he was genuinely ignorant instead of lying.

Quote

the Dornish support he was expecting

Tyrion also says Renly took the Dornish for granted, and GRRM says Doran didn't join Renly because he didn't see him as a winner. So Renly was egotistically expecting Dorne to join him.

Moving on to:

Quote

and that he expected Stannis to not challenge him (which he told Catelyn after he had already received and read the letter where Stannis talked about the twincest and his intention to take the Iron Throne for himself).

It wouldn't surprise me if Renly thought his large army would be enough for Stannis to submit to him. Or he was exaggerating his numbers in order to intimidate Catelyn.

The Renly "character" can mostly be summed up as:

He was a baby when he lost his parents, he grew up with an undemonstative Stannis and Cressen as caretakers until Stannis left for Dragonstone, while Robert was partying in the Vale. He was given Storm's End by Robert when Robert took the throne. Renly had no close familial ties, outranked everyone around him and was given gifts he did not work for - which meant he became entitled and egotistical. His family was distant, Stannis especially resented him for being given Storm's End, which might have contributed to the need for attention which Cressen mentions. The man we see in AGOT and ACOK was just a product of his upbringing and circumstances. 

[zandru]

Just a note in passing re: the showdown between Stannis and Renly:

Tywin Lannister bragged that his "red wedding" at the Twins was both smart and merciful, 'better to kill one man at dinner than thousands on the field of battle', or something to that effect. Yet the wedding killed not only Robb Stark the "one man", it also slaughtered most of his bannermen lords and ladies, and killed maybe 10,000 of his troops. That really is a Tywin-class massacre. Lannister has no reason to pat himself on the back.

Yet what Stannis did, using dark magic, is to literally kill just the "one man", his brother Renly, and as a result, their armies never fought. Later, he killed one more man, the castellan of Storm's End, which prevented a siege and further killing and deaths by starvation and disease.

We can agree that what Stannis did was reprehensible, while recognizing that  he did a great job of minimizing the overall death toll. And yet, there are those who don't think he'd be a good to adequate king.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

You're really exaggerating how underdeveloped Renly is - of course, he's a tertiary character who's mostly a plot device. Renly doesn't require more characterization than someone like Lancel.

But Lancel grew into more of a character than Renly ever was by AFfC, no?

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Anyway, all these questions are easily answered, with some speculation.

And that is the point. I don't want to use speculation on many of those issues. I want facts. If I have to fill the blanks myself the character isn't very developed.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Stannis says Renly worshipped Robert growing up. Later we see Renly saying that Robert disliked "counting coppers" and the duties of being king, and that he would be a better king than Robert to Catelyn. IMO the takeaway from this is that Renly loved Robert growing up, grew disappointed with him when he turned out not to be the hero he envisioned but a fat drunken oaf (though he might still have had some fondness for him), and ultimately decided he could do what Robert could not.

Nice speculation, but the thing is - Edric Storm also idolizes Robert. Many people who do not interact with the king do that kind of thing. Does this mean Renly was as close to Robert as Edric Storm or more/less closer? We don't know.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

"How" - because Robert was king and he could do what he wanted.

Sure, I meant how exactly we are to envision this happened - how did Robert come up with the idea, with whom was this discussed, who offered his/her advice, did it happen before or after or at the same time Robert gave Dragonstone to Stannis, etc.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

"Why" - GRRM says Renly got Storm's End because of Robert's careless generosity.

That is an SSM and not really an explanation. It doesn't explain why a nine-year-old was the benificiary of this 'careless generosity'.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Cersei says Robert gave Stannis Dragonstone and Renly Storm's End as a slight to Stannis. Stannis also think it's a slight, but Cressen says he was given Dragonstone and Renly Storm's End because Robert needed a strong man to rule there and Renly was a child.

And I'd actually like to know what actually happened there, i.e. what Robert's motivations truly were. Or at least a closer approximation to what really happened.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

"These past thirteen years" - that means Renly was given Storm's End at the age of eight, and he was at the Siege of Storm's End along with Stannis and Cressen, so we can safely conclude he grew up there.

It would mean he got Storm's End in 286 AC since the point in time this quote is given is early 299 AC, meaning Renly was likely around nine years old at the time, since he was born in 277 AC.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

He was most probably not squired with anyone since he was Lord of Storm's End from a young age, and it wouldn't be a wise political move to place a Lord of a powerful castle in someone else's hands. 

Oh, I didn't mean he had to leave Storm's End or court to be a squire. He could be a squire to the castellan of Storm's End, say - who would be somebody else until Renly came of age. But he could also be the squire of a prominent Stormlord to get to know the lands and lords he would rule one day in his own right - like Tywin did with Jaime. Or he could have served Robert as a squire or a high lord at court. After all, there would have been predecessors to Renly and Littlefinger on the Small Council and those could have been important and powerful men, etc. Hell, he could even have been Stannis' or Jon Arryn's squire.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

I'd probably say he lived in Storm's End for most of his life and his appointment to the Small Council was recent.

The latter is a given since minors wouldn't sit on the council. The former is possible but something I'd like to know not speculate about.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Because of nepotism.

That isn't an answer. Renly was very young. Choosing him for a position like Master of Laws is something somebody has to think about, suggest, support during a debate, etc. Was Stannis in favor of this? Jon Arryn? Robert himself? If so, why? And this sort of fits together with the question where Renly lived - usually, people are considered for advancement who are there so that the people making such decisions have them right in front of their faces. That would mean that one could doubt that Robert would think of Renly when he had to choose a new Master of Laws if he had dumped Renly at Storm's End and had Varys sent him a gift each year.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Renly didn't get along with Cersei because of politics. Cersei's cruelty was not a secret and considering how Catelyn wanted Jon gone from Winterfell because his claim or his children's claims could challenge Robb's,  to Cersei, Renly would also be a threat, being popular and well connected and being in line for the throne. Once Robert bit it she might even have tried to wrest Storm's End from Renly and give it to Tommen.

That isn't a good answer, either, since Cersei wasn't 'cruel' as such. She didn't rule nor orchestrate executions and torture stuff, etc. Renly was Robert's youngest brother, he was no danger to either Cersei or her children just because he existed - instead, he became a danger because for some reason he and Cersei didn't get along. And we just don't know why that is. I'd like to know, but we don't. Or rather: We can make a good inference why Cersei disliked her husband's brothers - because she knew her children weren't Robert's. But that doesn't explain why Renly disliked Cersei and wanted to replace her with Margaery.

I mean, look in Westerosi history - the wives of kings who had younger brothers didn't consider them all dangers to themselves or their children nor did said brothers routinely try to destroy the wives of those kings. That is a pretty odd behavior.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Cressen tells us why Renly wanted to be king:

Renly tells us why he wanted to be king:

So it was mostly self preservation, oh and popularity didn't hurt. 

Those are just not very good or detailed explanations. The one is an old man explaining the worst of treasons by means of referencing the childhood fancies of the traitor, and Renly's own explanation is something he tells Catelyn. He wants her sympathy and support, but he doesn't really explain why he had to claim the crown. That he never actually explains aside from the obvious fact he wants to be king. But that isn't enough proper characterization.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Renly used to say books were for maesters. I'd say he was genuinely ignorant instead of lying.

Nah, that makes no sense unless you want to tell me Renly would have to read books to know who his own paternal grandmother was. That is ridiculous. If a king is your great-grandfather you know that in this world.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Tyrion also says Renly took the Dornish for granted, and GRRM says Doran didn't join Renly because he didn't see him as a winner. So Renly was egotistically expecting Dorne to join him.

That, or he was making himself greater than he was. He also makes his army greater than it may have been - camp fires do not equal soldiers sitting around camp fires.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Moving on to:

It wouldn't surprise me if Renly thought his large army would be enough for Stannis to submit to him. Or he was exaggerating his numbers in order to intimidate Catelyn.

He was clearly lying there - or George dropped the ball as he did with his eye color and the Targaryen ancestry (which I also consider a mistake rather than a lie if I'm honest). Renly cannot have received the letter from Stannis and see Stannis as a (potential) ally. Those things do not happen in the same chapter, so the whole thing may have escaped George's notice.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

The Renly "character" can mostly be summed up as:

He was a baby when he lost his parents, he grew up with an undemonstative Stannis and Cressen as caretakers until Stannis left for Dragonstone, while Robert was partying in the Vale. He was given Storm's End by Robert when Robert took the throne. Renly had no close familial ties, outranked everyone around him and was given gifts he did not work for - which meant he became entitled and egotistical. His family was distant, Stannis especially resented him for being given Storm's End, which might have contributed to the need for attention which Cressen mentions. The man we see in AGOT and ACOK was just a product of his upbringing and circumstances. 

Aside from the speculation there, Robert wasn't partying in the Vale for most of Renly's childhood. Robert was there, at Storm's End, when Steffon and Cassana died, and his days as a ward were long over when he became Lord of Storm's End. He visited later with Jon at the Eyrie in the Year of the False Spring but we do not have the data to conclude that Robert spend most of the years from 278-282 AC in the Vale. Whether Stannis or Robert cared more for young Renly is completely unclear at that point.

Renly also didn't get Storm's End when Robert took the throne but only in 286 AC, meaning three years after Robert became king. Whether he lived at Storm's End once Robert became king is unclear, too. It is possible, but we have no idea whether that's the case or not. The need for attention Cressen mentions would be something Cressen noticed while he lived still at Storm's End - which he no longer did after Robert gave Dragonstone to Stannis and Cressen accompanied him there. Unless young Renly lived for a time as Stannis' ward on Dragonstone I don't see a chance for Cressen and Renly spending time together ... unless, of course, Stannis himself only got Dragonstone around 286 AC, the same time as Renly got his castle.

But even if that were so Stannis likely spend most of the first years of Robert's reign at court, building the fleet and taking Dragonstone from the Targaryens. He may have served as Master of Ships from the start (although we don't know that, either) which would imply that Stannis had little to no time to spend either at Storm's End or Dragonstone.

20 minutes ago, zandru said:

Just a note in passing re: the showdown between Stannis and Renly:

Tywin Lannister bragged that his "red wedding" at the Twins was both smart and merciful, 'better to kill one man at dinner than thousands on the field of battle', or something to that effect. Yet the wedding killed not only Robb Stark the "one man", it also slaughtered most of his bannermen lords and ladies, and killed maybe 10,000 of his troops. That really is a Tywin-class massacre. Lannister has no reason to pat himself on the back.

Yet what Stannis did, using dark magic, is to literally kill just the "one man", his brother Renly, and as a result, their armies never fought. Later, he killed one more man, the castellan of Storm's End, which prevented a siege and further killing and deaths by starvation and disease.

We can agree that what Stannis did was reprehensible, while recognizing that  he did a great job of minimizing the overall death toll. And yet, there are those who don't think he'd be a good to adequate king.

Well, and if Stannis had just not insisted he had to wear a crown neither his brother Renly nor Ser Cortnay Penrose would have died... He could have submitted to both his younger brother Renly as well as his nephew King Joffrey. It was his choice. Nobody forced him to become a murderer and kinslayer.

In principle I do agree that assassination can be preferrable to a bloody battle ... but the more important question is why do you want to fight/assassinate who!

[zandru]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, and if Stannis had just not insisted he had to wear a crown neither his brother Renly nor Ser Cortnay Penrose would have died... He could have submitted to both his younger brother Renly as well as his nephew King Joffrey. It was his choice. Nobody forced him to become a murderer and kinslayer.

In principle I do agree that assassination can be preferrable to a bloody battle ... but the more important question is why do you want to fight/assassinate who!

True, true. But remember how rules-based Stannis was. The successor to the King would be the King's eldest legitimate son; if the son was dead, then the son's eldest legitimate son and so on down the chain; failing any of those, his next eldest brother, yada yada and the son-sequence repeats. Stannis stated a number of times that he had to win the Kingship, because "it was his duty" and not something he actually wanted.

But come on. It's incredible that anyone would work so hard, kill so many including relatives, expend/borrow so much gold for something they didn't actually "want", but felt "duty-bound" to achieve. Yes, it was Stannis's choice. Was it a dumb choice? Of such are tragedies made.

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, zandru said:

True, true. But remember how rules-based Stannis was. The successor to the King would be the King's eldest legitimate son; if the son was dead, then the son's eldest legitimate son and so on down the chain; failing any of those, his next eldest brother, yada yada and the son-sequence repeats. Stannis stated a number of times that he had to win the Kingship, because "it was his duty" and not something he actually wanted.

The problem is that he has no evidence or proof to convince anyone that his nephews and niece aren't his nephews and niece. A person truly obsessed with rules would know that claiming something being true doesn't make it so. And Stannis knew he had literally no cards in his hand ... else he would have gone to Robert to tell him 'the truth'.

But even if he thought about rules. He had any right to abdicate/not accept the crown. He could have handed it over to Renly. And he would have if he didn't want to be king.

19 minutes ago, zandru said:

But come on. It's incredible that anyone would work so hard, kill so many including relatives, expend/borrow so much gold for something they didn't actually "want", but felt "duty-bound" to achieve. Yes, it was Stannis's choice. Was it a dumb choice? Of such are tragedies made.

Stannis lies when he goes on about duty and that he doesn't want to be king. He wants to be king very, very much. That's all he wants. Or rather: He wants to be like Robert, to be as loved as Robert, to be a better king than Robert ever was and still be loved, etc. It is part of his personality disorder/character flaw/whatever that he cannot admit what he wants. Just as he cannot admit he murdered Renly or that he fucks Melisandre, etc.

How much he craves power you can also see in his half-mad promises to Davos that they 'will make new lords'. Stannis wants power so he can remake the world in his image and make people fear, worship, and/or love him. That's why he is also using his red falcon. He struck his deal with Mel because his lords and knights fear her ... and he likes that.

[Peach King]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But Lancel grew into more of a character than Renly ever was by AFfC, no?

And that is the point. I don't want to use speculation on many of those issues. I want facts. If I have to fill the blanks myself the character isn't very developed.

Not really.

And he doesn't need to be developed.

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nice speculation, but the thing is - Edric Storm also idolizes Robert. Many people who do not interact with the king do that kind of thing. Does this mean Renly was as close to Robert as Edric Storm or more/less closer? We don't know.

He "worshipped him". That seems pretty clear to me. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, I meant how exactly we are to envision this happened - how did Robert come up with the idea, with whom was this discussed, who offered his/her advice, did it happen before or after or at the same time Robert gave Dragonstone to Stannis, etc.

That is an SSM and not really an explanation. It doesn't explain why a nine-year-old was the benificiary of this 'careless generosity'.

And I'd actually like to know what actually happened there, i.e. what Robert's motivations truly were. Or at least a closer approximation to what really happened.

Why is that important? And why don't SSMs count?

Robert is a very impulsive and unthinking man by nature - he was going to give Jaime the title of Warden of the East. It's perfectly keeping with his character to give a young Renly a castle just because.

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It would mean he got Storm's End in 286 AC since the point in time this quote is given is early 299 AC, meaning Renly was likely around nine years old at the time, since he was born in 277 AC.

The app says he was born in 277 AC and it's not really canon. 

He was said to be 21 here, 21-13 = 8.

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I didn't mean he had to leave Storm's End or court to be a squire. He could be a squire to the castellan of Storm's End, say - who would be somebody else until Renly came of age. But he could also be the squire of a prominent Stormlord to get to know the lands and lords he would rule one day in his own right - like Tywin did with Jaime. Or he could have served Robert as a squire or a high lord at court. After all, there would have been predecessors to Renly and Littlefinger on the Small Council and those could have been important and powerful men, etc. Hell, he could even have been Stannis' or Jon Arryn's squire.

He likely wasn't anyone's squire considering no one said he ever was a squire, and Robert couldn't be bothered to make him a squire for anyone.

I have no idea why his being a squire would make him more fleshed out, the opposite is true, as I said he outranked everyone around him which is why he became arrogant.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The latter is a given since minors wouldn't sit on the council. The former is possible but something I'd like to know not speculate about.

I don't see why it's important. We hear Renly has been Lord for the past 13 years, we don't hear of him being fostered or squired anywhere - ergo, he lived in Storm's End as lord.

13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That isn't an answer. Renly was very young. Choosing him for a position like Master of Laws is something somebody has to think about, suggest, support during a debate, etc. Was Stannis in favor of this? Jon Arryn? Robert himself? If so, why? And this sort of fits together with the question where Renly lived - usually, people are considered for advancement who are there so that the people making such decisions have them right in front of their faces. That would mean that one could doubt that Robert would think of Renly when he had to choose a new Master of Laws if he had dumped Renly at Storm's End and had Varys sent him a gift each year.

Robert doesn't think deeply about issues. Robert is incredibly self absorbed. Robert thinks his way of showing love is just handing out gifts to everyone. It doesn't require more thought than that.

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That isn't a good answer, either, since Cersei wasn't 'cruel' as such. She didn't rule nor orchestrate executions and torture stuff, etc. Renly was Robert's youngest brother, he was no danger to either Cersei or her children just because he existed - instead, he became a danger because for some reason he and Cersei didn't get along. And we just don't know why that is. I'd like to know, but we don't. Or rather: We can make a good inference why Cersei disliked her husband's brothers - because she knew her children weren't Robert's. But that doesn't explain why Renly disliked Cersei and wanted to replace her with Margaery.

Cersei isn't cruel? Wow, I've heard everything. Cersei sold one of Robert's mistresses to slavery, and had the children killed. Cersei wanted Arya's hand chopped off for striking Joffrey, and had Mycah run down just for being present in the vicinity.

Renly is a threat just by existing, and he isn't going to try to coast by on the Lannister's good graces - considering how treacherous they've proven themselves to be (in the eyes of everyone), with Jaime killing his rightful king, with Tywin entering the capital under a false peace banner.

Catelyn didn't trust Jon even when he had grown up alongside her children and was seen as a brother by them.

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, look in Westerosi history - the wives of kings who had younger brothers didn't consider them all dangers to themselves or their children nor did said brothers routinely try to destroy the wives of those kings. That is a pretty odd behavior.

It's not odd at all, considering the wife in question is known for being ambitious, comes from a cruel, power hungry family, and was trying to fill up all the offices with as many Lannisters as possible. Renly could plainly see he had no place in a Lannister dominated court, and responded as such. 

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Those are just not very good or detailed explanations. The one is an old man explaining the worst of treasons by means of referencing the childhood fancies of the traitor, and Renly's own explanation is something he tells Catelyn. He wants her sympathy and support, but he doesn't really explain why he had to claim the crown. That he never actually explains aside from the obvious fact he wants to be king. But that isn't enough proper characterization.

The first is an old man who raised and was intimately acquainted with the "traitor". And Cressen's explanation makes sense, as Renly was swanning around and enjoying the attention instead of heading straight to KL.

He explains why he had to claim the crown - Cersei wanted him dead. Which was actually true, as we learn later in her POV. 

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nah, that makes no sense unless you want to tell me Renly would have to read books to know who his own paternal grandmother was. That is ridiculous. If a king is your great-grandfather you know that in this world.

He was making a flippant statement that blood ties aren't important, might is. If anything, he was undermining his connection to the Targaryens and stressing that his swords would make him king. 

Genealogies are something you learn about from maesters.

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That, or he was making himself greater than he was. He also makes his army greater than it may have been - camp fires do not equal soldiers sitting around camp fires.

He was clearly lying there - or George dropped the ball as he did with his eye color and the Targaryen ancestry (which I also consider a mistake rather than a lie if I'm honest). Renly cannot have received the letter from Stannis and see Stannis as a (potential) ally. Those things do not happen in the same chapter, so the whole thing may have escaped George's notice.

He fully expected Dorne and Barristan to join him, so I could believe it.

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aside from the speculation there, Robert wasn't partying in the Vale for most of Renly's childhood. Robert was there, at Storm's End, when Steffon and Cassana died, and his days as a ward were long over when he became Lord of Storm's End. He visited later with Jon at the Eyrie in the Year of the False Spring but we do not have the data to conclude that Robert spend most of the years from 278-282 AC in the Vale. Whether Stannis or Robert cared more for young Renly is completely unclear at that point.

Renly also didn't get Storm's End when Robert took the throne but only in 286 AC, meaning three years after Robert became king. Whether he lived at Storm's End once Robert became king is unclear, too. It is possible, but we have no idea whether that's the case or not. The need for attention Cressen mentions would be something Cressen noticed while he lived still at Storm's End - which he no longer did after Robert gave Dragonstone to Stannis and Cressen accompanied him there. Unless young Renly lived for a time as Stannis' ward on Dragonstone I don't see a chance for Cressen and Renly spending time together ... unless, of course, Stannis himself only got Dragonstone around 286 AC, the same time as Renly got his castle.

But even if that were so Stannis likely spend most of the first years of Robert's reign at court, building the fleet and taking Dragonstone from the Targaryens. He may have served as Master of Ships from the start (although we don't know that, either) which would imply that Stannis had little to no time to spend either at Storm's End or Dragonstone.

Alright - so Robert was an erratic figure in his childhood who moved to KL when be became king.  Stannis didn't spend much time at Storm's End when he was given Dragonstone. Renly was still Lord of Storm's End from a very young age and his family weren't around for much of his life, which explains like 90% of his personality.

Why wouldn't he live at Storm's End? You're really making this way too complicated. GRRM said Robert didn't see Renly much until he was old enough to come to court. 

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Not really.

Lancel has a complex religious conversion story at this point, and a pretty good dialogue with his cousin about his emotional and sex life. We know much more about Lancel as a character than we know about Renly.

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

And he doesn't need to be developed.

I'm just pointing out Renly isn't very developed - I also don't like that, of course. But the latter is just my taste.

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

He "worshipped him". That seems pretty clear to me. 

Again, to what degree? And what does this mean in detail?

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Why is that important? And why don't SSMs count?

Because they aren't part of the novels. If I had dinner with George tomorrow and asked him to tell me more details about Renly's childhood and youth and he did that for two hours then this would still not change the published novels, no?

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Robert is a very impulsive and unthinking man by nature - he was going to give Jaime the title of Warden of the East. It's perfectly keeping with his character to give a young Renly a castle just because.

That is not enough for me.

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

The app says he was born in 277 AC and it's not really canon. 

He was said to be 21 here, 21-13 = 8.

Renly's age is another weird and contradictory issue - something also that also shows George didn't care much about the character.

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

He likely wasn't anyone's squire considering no one said he ever was a squire, and Robert couldn't be bothered to make him a squire for anyone.

I have no idea why his being a squire would make him more fleshed out, the opposite is true, as I said he outranked everyone around him which is why he became arrogant.

I don't see why it's important. We hear Renly has been Lord for the past 13 years, we don't hear of him being fostered or squired anywhere - ergo, he lived in Storm's End as lord.

You mean like Edric Dayne, Lord of Starfall lives at Starfall? Being a lord of something doesn't mean you live at your castle - Ned and Tywin both offered to take Robert Arryn, Lord of the Eyrie, as ward after the boy had become Lord of the Eyrie.

We just know Renly was Lord of Storm's End for thirteen years in 299 AC - but that tells us nothing where the man lived in those years.

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Cersei isn't cruel? Wow, I've heard everything. Cersei sold one of Robert's mistresses to slavery, and had the children killed. Cersei wanted Arya's hand chopped off for striking Joffrey, and had Mycah run down just for being present in the vicinity.

Littlefinger claims she did that. Could be as true as the dagger lie. Arya/Mycah is correct but then we don't know how often something like that happened - and why would Renly care about that? He also wanted to assassinate a pregnant fourteen-year-old who was his own cousin.

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Renly is a threat just by existing, and he isn't going to try to coast by on the Lannister's good graces - considering how treacherous they've proven themselves to be (in the eyes of everyone), with Jaime killing his rightful king, with Tywin entering the capital under a false peace banner.

Still, they are Robert's family now - and by extension also Renly's family.

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Catelyn didn't trust Jon even when he had grown up alongside her children and was seen as a brother by them.

Jon is a bastard, not just Robb's younger brother. Do you think Rickon would want to destroy Jeyne or Jeyne Rickon?

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

It's not odd at all, considering the wife in question is known for being ambitious, comes from a cruel, power hungry family, and was trying to fill up all the offices with as many Lannisters as possible. Renly could plainly see he had no place in a Lannister dominated court, and responded as such. 

Or perhaps Renly wanted to put all his little roses in powerful positions at court? Perhaps he wanted to dominate court? We don't know. Cersei had no one on the Small Council - she wasn't dominating court, anyway.

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

The first is an old man who raised and was intimately acquainted with the "traitor". And Cressen's explanation makes sense, as Renly was swanning around and enjoying the attention instead of heading straight to KL.

I don't say it doesn't make any sense - I said he wouldn't have known Renly very well. And I'd add that using childhood behavior to completely describe a character isn't great complexity or development.

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

He explains why he had to claim the crown - Cersei wanted him dead. Which was actually true, as we learn later in her POV. 

He could have done a lot of things defending himself against Cersei and not crown himself. It is ridiculous he had to be king to rebel against Joffrey.

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

He was making a flippant statement that blood ties aren't important, might is. If anything, he was undermining his connection to the Targaryens and stressing that his swords would make him king. 

Genealogies are something you learn about from maesters.

He is still not making sense there. He talks about marriages that never even existed yet forgot the marriage of his own grandmother.

Your grandparents are something you learn about from your parents and siblings and servants and companions. Maesters might tell you about your ancestors from a couple of hundred years ago, but your own family and household tell you about your more immediate ancestors and family.

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Why wouldn't he live at Storm's End? You're really making this way too complicated. GRRM said Robert didn't see Renly much until he was old enough to come to court. 

See above.

And I could add the Loras stuff: We have no clue whether Renly actually loved Loras. Was he his true love or just a fuckbuddy? We don't know. Also thanks to there being not much development in that department.

[KingintheNorth4]

There must always be a Baratheon in Storm's End.

[dialt]

It wasn’t stupid. It was strategic.

Stannis is a good leader so you don’t give him lordship on lands that control powerful assets.

The less he has, the less chances he has to become another powerful man to deal with, to cause “problems”, to try to influence the crown, to ever try to seize the throne.

The question I have is if that came from Robert himself, Jon Arryn or Tywin.

[Peach King]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, to what degree? And what does this mean in detail?.

It means he idolized the man when he was young. But he doesn't seem to idolize him as a grown up. Which tells us something about his relationship with Robert.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Because they aren't part of the novels. If I had dinner with George tomorrow and asked him to tell me more details about Renly's childhood and youth and he did that for two hours then this would still not change the published novels, no?.

Two in-world characters also provide context on why Stannis was given Dragonstone and Renly Storm's End.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not enough for me.

Ok then.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly's age is another weird and contradictory issue - something also that also shows George didn't care much about the character.

He was thought to be "near twenty" in AGOT. He was stated to be 21 in ACOK. I see no contradiction here.

GRRM sure brings him up a lot after his death for someone he didn't care about - 207 times over three books.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You mean like Edric Dayne, Lord of Starfall lives at Starfall? Being a lord of something doesn't mean you live at your castle - Ned and Tywin both offered to take Robert Arryn, Lord of the Eyrie, as ward after the boy had become Lord of the Eyrie.

We just know Renly was Lord of Storm's End for thirteen years in 299 AC - but that tells us nothing where the man lived in those years.

Since we are never told he was a squire and ward to anyone, he wasn't. Again, I don't see how this is a problem and how it would add "complexity" to his character.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Littlefinger claims she did that. Could be as true as the dagger lie. Arya/Mycah is correct but then we don't know how often something like that happened - and why would Renly care about that? He also wanted to assassinate a pregnant fourteen-year-old who was his own cousin.

Littlefinger is telling Ned one of the rumours in court.

He would care because it affects him and his place in court. Besides, I read that as empty machismo.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Still, they are Robert's family now - and by extension also Renly's family.

Jon is a bastard, not just Robb's younger brother. Do you think Rickon would want to destroy Jeyne or Jeyne Rickon?

We've seen how much "family" counts for with the Blacks and the Greens.

That's a terrible non argument.You acknowledged that Renly was a threat to the succession just upthread.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Or perhaps Renly wanted to put all his little roses in powerful positions at court? Perhaps he wanted to dominate court? We don't know. Cersei had no one on the Small Council - she wasn't dominating court, anyway.

Perhaps. Since he says the Lannisters have no mercy and it's confirmed that Cersei wanted to deal with him in her POV chapters I'd say it was for self preservation though.

Cersei didn't have anyone on the Small Council but there were Lannister guardsmen everywhere, Jaime was going to be Warden of the East,  the king had two Lannister squires, and she had more influence over Robert than Ned.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't say it doesn't make any sense - I said he wouldn't have known Renly very well. And I'd add that using childhood behavior to completely describe a character isn't great complexity or development.

Why not? We know that Jon used to say he was Lord of Winterfell and Robb would tell him that his lady mother said he can't ever be Lord. We can realistically infer this affected Jon growing up.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He could have done a lot of things defending himself against Cersei and not crown himself. It is ridiculous he had to be king to rebel against Joffrey.

Not really.

His plan to install Ned as Regent had already failed.

If he stayed neutral, he had no way of knowing how the tide would turn and if the Lannisters won, they could turn on him next. The Tyrells could even join up with the Lannisters.

He could have joined up with Stannis - except he had no way of knowing what Stannis was doing. Stannis might have fought for his rightful king Joffrey instead.

He could have rebelled with just the Stormlands like Robb - but that also runs the risk of the Tyrells joining up with the Lannisters. 

He could have tried to be a friend to the Lannisters - but that wouldn't make his position very secure since we know what the Lannisters do to their "friends" - like Aerys and Falyse Stokeworth.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He is still not making sense there. He talks about marriages that never even existed yet forgot the marriage of his own grandmother.

Your grandparents are something you learn about from your parents and siblings and servants and companions. Maesters might tell you about your ancestors from a couple of hundred years ago, but your own family and household tell you about your more immediate ancestors and family.

See above.

Maybe Renly didn't care? It's supposed to contrast his character with Stannis, who thinks birthright is everything. 

I'd say that we aren't supposed to get to know Renly intimately. We have no POVs close to him, only a bunch of subjective opinions from various people, and we never see him in a private moment. So all we can do is try to piece together an accurate picture of him from all these sources.

[Vaith]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think that's very likely. Stannis is so unpopular that they would have done anything in their power to prevent that. None of Robert's friends and allies would have felt the same loyalty and friendship they felt for Robert. The lords may have crowned Renly or invited Viserys III to take the crown rather than to suffer a man like Stannis as their king. And the Greyjoy Rebellion should have been much more successful if Stannis had been the king trying to crush it.

The people going with Stannis really have no other choice. Nobody likes him, especially not most of the people who follow him.

Well, he knew how rotten his reign was during his last years. Lordships can be given and taken away. If Renly and Stannis didn't work out as lords in their own right then the king can take those lordships back.

So unpopular that they'd rather crown an eleven-year old rather than a 23 year old who'd have had a decade less to prove his popularity? Yeah, I really don't think that's likely. Or that they would completely undermine the rebel cause by simply inviting the rebels back. The circumstances of all the kingdoms breaking away upon Robert's death really wouldn't be in place, and there would be no reason for a child Renly to build a strong power base.

Revoking lordships is going to be seen as despotic to some degree unless they have been accused of some high crime. Renly and Stannis did not prove themselves so awful or incompetent prior to the beginning of AGOT that such a revocation would have even crossed Robert's mind.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

It means he idolized the man when he was young. But he doesn't seem to idolize him as a grown up. Which tells us something about his relationship with Robert.

Like it tells us something about Robert's relationship with Edric Storm? Robert turned from a charismatic warrior into a fat and lazy drunkard. That alone can explain why his little brother no longer thought highly of him ... just as essentially nobody in the Realm thought highly of him. Even Ned is pretty disgusted when he sees what his friend had become.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

He was thought to be "near twenty" in AGOT. He was stated to be 21 in ACOK. I see no contradiction here.

The contradiction is how old Renly was when Robert won the throne - eight years old, according to Ned. That doesn't fit with any of the other information given and is a mistake.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Since we are never told he was a squire and ward to anyone, he wasn't. Again, I don't see how this is a problem and how it would add "complexity" to his character.

We can assume that every knight once served as a squire because that's what people who gain knighthoods do. He doesn't have to be a ward of somebody else but if they raised him at Storm's End somebody would have been his legal guardian since neither Robert nor Stannis lived there and the boy was still very young when Robert took the throne. But it is also possible that Renly lived at court with Robert until he got his knighthood. We don't know.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Littlefinger is telling Ned one of the rumours in court.

Or he is inventing something. Those children and their mother are never mentioned by any other character. Tyrion should know about that but it never crosses his mind when he thinks about Cersei. Not even when she captures Alayaya and threatens her. Nor does Cersei herself remember this episode.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

We've seen how much "family" counts for with the Blacks and the Greens.

Last time I looked we got explanations why the Blacks and the Greens didn't like each other, right? For Renly there is zero explanation. Neither is there for Stannis, for that matter. What issues did he have with his brother's wife?

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

That's a terrible non argument.You acknowledged that Renly was a threat to the succession just upthread.

Yes, on Cersei's part. But that also goes to a point. I mean, don't pretend to be stupid. If you were Cersei in AGoT you knew that Stannis may suspect or even think he 'knows' about the twincest. In such a scenario you need your ducks in a row to deal with the Stannis problem. Cersei even tried to seduce Ned and get him on her side ... why shouldn't she also try to do that with Renly? Not the seduction thing, the 'get him on her side' thing. She could need the Stormlands in the coming struggles.

Renly has no idea what Cersei does with Jaime, so his issues with her are obviously petty and based on nothing. And for Cersei we only infer she had issues with Robert's brothers because of the twincest. She never actually says that. She never says 'Stannis and Renly have to go because they are a danger to my children.' It makes sense to assume that, but we don't really know if that was her (only) motivation.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Perhaps. Since he says the Lannisters have no mercy and it's confirmed that Cersei wanted to deal with him in her POV chapters I'd say it was for self preservation though.

Well, he is wrong. The Lannisters do have mercy. Not that much, though.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Cersei didn't have anyone on the Small Council but there were Lannister guardsmen everywhere, Jaime was going to be Warden of the East,  the king had two Lannister squires, and she had more influence over Robert than Ned.

Still, she didn't dominate court, and Jaime being Warden of the East could have meant Robert planned to send him to the Vale eventually. It would have been a pointless title if he didn't actually hang out in the east, no?

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

If he stayed neutral, he had no way of knowing how the tide would turn and if the Lannisters won, they could turn on him next. The Tyrells could even join up with the Lannisters.

You mean, like the Lannisters turned on Dorne or the Vale? Don't be ridiculous, a shaking government cannot afford to antagonize people who are potential allies. And the Tyrells could rise alongside Renly in his rebellion without him becoming a pretender to the throne. Just as the Tullys and Starks fought King Joffrey while Robb had not yet been proclaimed king.

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

He could have joined up with Stannis - except he had no way of knowing what Stannis was doing. Stannis might have fought for his rightful king Joffrey instead.

Well, he could have talked to him first, no? He had the ability to receive and send ravens...

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

He could have rebelled with just the Stormlands like Robb - but that also runs the risk of the Tyrells joining up with the Lannisters. 

It doesn't, if you use the ties you have with that house. I mean, it is ridiculous to assume that all the Reach demanded of Renly that he has to crown himself and marry Margaery before they would consider becoming the vilest of traitors with him. Or rather: If that was the case we would want to know that.

The reason why nearly have the Realm thought a vile traitor with essentially no good claim to the throne was a great bet is completely unexplained. Were they all cynics who didn't give a damn about the line of succession?

That is another problem in this whole Renly thing. We have no idea why a man like Randyll Tarly stands with as vile and despicable a traitor as Renly. Why is that? We do understand why Brienne worships Renly, but what about all those other lords and ladies?

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Maybe Renly didn't care? It's supposed to contrast his character with Stannis, who thinks birthright is everything. 

Renly is only a pretender to the throne because he is the brother of King Robert. And that has to do with his blood, too. He doesn't care about birth order, but he, like his supporters, do care about royal blood. Else they could have crowned Loras Tyrell or Mace Tyrell or Randyll Tarly. And Robert's and Renly's own royalty goes back to their grandmother Rhaelle. Everybody listening to Renly would have known that, since they all knew why the hell Robert became king back in 283 AC. This was a pretty major event.

Bottom line is, that this is likely another mistake in the novel. Because in the end Robert himself was effectively the next in line after Viserys III (and his sister) after the Sack. His claim wasn't so much a war hammer but his royal blood. If it truly had to be his war hammer then George should have made him no Targaryen cousin at all or a much more distantly related cousin with a number of prominent people being passed over in favor of Robert because he was impressive a warrior and general and had so great a war hammer. But that simply isn't the case.

1 hour ago, Vaith said:

So unpopular that they'd rather crown an eleven-year old rather than a 23 year old who'd have had a decade less to prove his popularity? Yeah, I really don't think that's likely. Or that they would completely undermine the rebel cause by simply inviting the rebels back. The circumstances of all the kingdoms breaking away upon Robert's death really wouldn't be in place, and there would be no reason for a child Renly to build a strong power base.

My impression is that Stannis is even less popular in the Seven Kingdoms than Egg ever was. Literally nobody likes him and he has no friends among the lords. Half the Realm stood with the Targaryens during the Rebellion and it seems that many of those would fear that a King Stannis would persecute them if he gained the throne. If the succession would be settled consensually by a Great Council - say, because King Robert never anointed an heir, expecting to have children of his own - then I don't see Stannis winning such a popularity contest. And that's not an unlikely scenario considering what happened after Maekar's death.

If Stannis falls through, then the only viable candidates at such a gathering would be young Renly or Viserys III.

1 hour ago, Vaith said:

Revoking lordships is going to be seen as despotic to some degree unless they have been accused of some high crime. Renly and Stannis did not prove themselves so awful or incompetent prior to the beginning of AGOT that such a revocation would have even crossed Robert's mind.

That certainly is true. But then, Robert Arryn also hadn't done anything to provoke Robert and he refused to grant him the traditional title and office of Warden of the East. Robert was a pretty despotic king if you think of that.

[Vaith]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

My impression is that Stannis is even less popular in the Seven Kingdoms than Egg ever was. Literally nobody likes him and he has no friends among the lords. Half the Realm stood with the Targaryens during the Rebellion and it seems that many of those would fear that a King Stannis would persecute them if he gained the throne. If the succession would be settled consensually by a Great Council - say, because King Robert never anointed an heir, expecting to have children of his own - then I don't see Stannis winning such a popularity contest. And that's not an unlikely scenario considering what happened after Maekar's death.

If Stannis falls through, then the only viable candidates at such a gathering would be young Renly or Viserys III.

That certainly is true. But then, Robert Arryn also hadn't done anything to provoke Robert and he refused to grant him the traditional title and office of Warden of the East. Robert was a pretty despotic king if you think of that.

Would he have been so unpopular in the early days, however, when his small council career was new or possibly hadn't even begun? I really don't think that the same concerns would exist in a timeline before Stannis being seen as a hanging judge would be an issue (because Renly would not have declared himself king and gather a huge power base) or before he renounced the Faith. 5 years after the rebellion the roadblocks just aren't the same and both rival candidates would be minors.

Warden of the East is a ceremonial title and not really the same as indefinitely stripping someone of their land. What would give Robert a reason to take land away from Stannis/Renly before the events of his death took place, anyway?

[The hairy bear]

To be fair, Robert had a point in not wanting Sweetrobin as Warden of the East. The title may be cerimonial in times of peace, but is the responsible to command the king's armies in the event of an invasion.

Given that Robert had intel the the Targaryens had just acquired a Dothraki army in the East, it's understandable that he wanted an experienced commander leading the troops.

[Vaith]

38 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

To be fair, Robert had a point in not wanting Sweetrobin as Warden of the East. The title may be cerimonial in times of peace, but is the responsible to command the king's armies in the event of an invasion.

Given that Robert had intel the the Targaryens had just acquired a Dothraki army in the East, it's understandable that he wanted an experienced commander leading the troops.

Plus, I think the whole Warden of the East thing is considered one of those early things in AGoT that never really amounted to anything and looks quite weird in retrospect. Jaime's job is to guard the king and royal family, so him being expected to be the leading figure of the Vale's defences is rather odd. I mean if you wanted to give it to someone else, the obvious choice would be Lord Royce or another strong bannerman.

It doesn't really amount to much in AGOT and is quickly reversed in ACOK and ASOS too. Is it just the remnant of that earlier outline where Jaime wanted to grab power and had plans on the throne, I wonder?

[Peach King]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Like it tells us something about Robert's relationship with Edric Storm? Robert turned from a charismatic warrior into a fat and lazy drunkard. That alone can explain why his little brother no longer thought highly of him ... just as essentially nobody in the Realm thought highly of him. Even Ned is pretty disgusted when he sees what his friend had become.

 Yeah, that's what I believe happened.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The contradiction is how old Renly was when Robert won the throne - eight years old, according to Ned. That doesn't fit with any of the other information given and is a mistake.

Or Ned remembered things wrong. GRRM said POVs can be unreliable.

Brienne and Cressen, who knew Renly much better, remember his age correctly. It's been 13 years since Ned last saw Renly.

It's like Theon remembering Ned and Robert as being the first to breach the walls of Pyke, when it was actually Thoros and Jorah Mormont. 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We can assume that every knight once served as a squire because that's what people who gain knighthoods do. He doesn't have to be a ward of somebody else but if they raised him at Storm's End somebody would have been his legal guardian since neither Robert nor Stannis lived there and the boy was still very young when Robert took the throne. But it is also possible that Renly lived at court with Robert until he got his knighthood. We don't know.

He didn't  have to be a squire though.

The wiki says this:

"Although not an absolute requirement for becoming a knight, boys, often nobly born, can serve as pages and later squires."

"Regardless, at times, a lord's son is knighted without fulfilling the requirements. For example, Lord Caswell of Bitterbridge had his only son and heir, a weakling, knighted."

Robert could have just knighted Renly without him being a squire to anyone.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Or he is inventing something. Those children and their mother are never mentioned by any other character. Tyrion should know about that but it never crosses his mind when he thinks about Cersei. Not even when she captures Alayaya and threatens her. Nor does Cersei herself remember this episode.

Maybe - but Cersei's personality was still not a secret.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Last time I looked we got explanations why the Blacks and the Greens didn't like each other, right? For Renly there is zero explanation. Neither is there for Stannis, for that matter. What issues did he have with his brother's wife?

Isn't her being ambitious, a great influence on Robert, and a nasty person in general enough? You're being needlessly pedantic.  As far as I know that was also why Rhaenyra didn't get along with Alicent.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, on Cersei's part. But that also goes to a point. I mean, don't pretend to be stupid. If you were Cersei in AGoT you knew that Stannis may suspect or even think he 'knows' about the twincest. In such a scenario you need your ducks in a row to deal with the Stannis problem. Cersei even tried to seduce Ned and get him on her side ... why shouldn't she also try to do that with Renly? Not the seduction thing, the 'get him on her side' thing. She could need the Stormlands in the coming struggles.

The seduction was a last minute attempt just when Ned told her he was going to reveal the truth. Before that, she didn't try to win Ned over to her side at all.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly has no idea what Cersei does with Jaime, so his issues with her are obviously petty and based on nothing. And for Cersei we only infer she had issues with Robert's brothers because of the twincest. She never actually says that. She never says 'Stannis and Renly have to go because they are a danger to my children.' It makes sense to assume that, but we don't really know if that was her (only) motivation.

It's not based on nothing, it's based on the Lannisters being known for being power hungry and treacherous, and Renly having good reason to want to increase his own power base and limit theirs. It's silly to think these people were trying to remove each other out of petty dislike....it's called politics.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, he is wrong. The Lannisters do have mercy. Not that much, though.

Still, she didn't dominate court, and Jaime being Warden of the East could have meant Robert planned to send him to the Vale eventually. It would have been a pointless title if he didn't actually hang out in the east, no?

It clearly shows she's grasping and would have tried to dominate court as soon as Robert died, which might not have been far off on the horizon given his drinking and eating habits.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You mean, like the Lannisters turned on Dorne or the Vale? Don't be ridiculous, a shaking government cannot afford to antagonize people who are potential allies. And the Tyrells could rise alongside Renly in his rebellion without him becoming a pretender to the throne. Just as the Tullys and Starks fought King Joffrey while Robb had not yet been proclaimed king.

Why would the Tyrells do that if they could get their daughter as queen by marrying her to Joffrey? They don't receive any benefits from just rebelling.

The Starks and Tullys were fighting for Ned, who was their Lord Paramount whom the Lannisters had imprisoned unjustly. 

The Eyrie is impregnable, Dorne is protected by natural borders, while Storm's End is easily assailable. 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, he could have talked to him first, no? He had the ability to receive and send ravens...

True, but Stannis had been doing nothing while everything in KL went down, so Renly probably thought he couldn't be depended upon.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It doesn't, if you use the ties you have with that house. I mean, it is ridiculous to assume that all the Reach demanded of Renly that he has to crown himself and marry Margaery before they would consider becoming the vilest of traitors with him. Or rather: If that was the case we would want to know that.

The reason why nearly have the Realm thought a vile traitor with essentially no good claim to the throne was a great bet is completely unexplained. Were they all cynics who didn't give a damn about the line of succession?

Why is it ridiculous? We're clearly told by Olenna that Mace followed Renly because he wanted Margaery to be queen. Which wouldn't happen if they followed Renly just as rebels. What would be the outcome of this rebellion anyway? Holding a Great Council and choosing the next king after they deposed the Lannisters? Well then, why not just skip all that and go directly to crowning Renly, since that would be the likeliest outcome of such a council.

And I'd say they were cynics, yeah. Renly said that those who followed him all wanted something from him, like lands and knighthoods and honors. Renly being charismatic, the Lannisters being hated tyrants, and Stannis being hated and also declaring late would also help things.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is another problem in this whole Renly thing. We have no idea why a man like Randyll Tarly stands with as vile and despicable a traitor as Renly. Why is that? We do understand why Brienne worships Renly, but what about all those other lords and ladies?

Randyll Tarly followed his liege lord, Mace Tyrell. We're told in Catelyn's chapters that the lords flocked around Renly because of his personal charisma and he looked like the second coming of Robert. 

It's easy to follow a usurper if the other choice is a tyrant who was shooting random citizens with crossbow bolts and making men fight to the death for fun.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly is only a pretender to the throne because he is the brother of King Robert. And that has to do with his blood, too. He doesn't care about birth order, but he, like his supporters, do care about royal blood. Else they could have crowned Loras Tyrell or Mace Tyrell or Randyll Tarly. And Robert's and Renly's own royalty goes back to their grandmother Rhaelle. Everybody listening to Renly would have known that, since they all knew why the hell Robert became king back in 283 AC. This was a pretty major event.

Bottom line is, that this is likely another mistake in the novel. Because in the end Robert himself was effectively the next in line after Viserys III (and his sister) after the Sack. His claim wasn't so much a war hammer but his royal blood. If it truly had to be his war hammer then George should have made him no Targaryen cousin at all or a much more distantly related cousin with a number of prominent people being passed over in favor of Robert because he was impressive a warrior and general and had so great a war hammer. But that simply isn't the case.

I'd say that was the case, it's not as if they they would have crowned Viserys if Robert's grandmother wasn't Rhaelle.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Vaith said:

Would he have been so unpopular in the early days, however, when his small council career was new or possibly hadn't even begun? I really don't think that the same concerns would exist in a timeline before Stannis being seen as a hanging judge would be an issue (because Renly would not have declared himself king and gather a huge power base) or before he renounced the Faith. 5 years after the rebellion the roadblocks just aren't the same and both rival candidates would be minors.

Well, to be sure, I don't really understand the 'Stannis is unpopular as hell' story, either, since that's also one of the things which were never developed in detail. But it is nevertheless the defining character trait of Stannis, along with the trait of him being 'uncomfortable around women'. And perhaps gnashing his teeth.

4 hours ago, Vaith said:

Warden of the East is a ceremonial title and not really the same as indefinitely stripping someone of their land. What would give Robert a reason to take land away from Stannis/Renly before the events of his death took place, anyway?

It isn't the same, but it can be seen as a hint that Robert may have done that if he felt the need he should. He also presumed to rule where the hell Lord Robert Arryn should live ... which wasn't his call at all.

As for a reason for such a thing - lordships/seat for Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen. Cersei could have decided she wanted that Joffrey be Prince of Dragonstone like any Heir Apparent since Prince Aemon (presumably) and that Myrcella or Tommen get Storm's End. Robert listened to Cersei in this Warden of East thing, too, after all.

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

To be fair, Robert had a point in not wanting Sweetrobin as Warden of the East. The title may be cerimonial in times of peace, but is the responsible to command the king's armies in the event of an invasion.

Given that Robert had intel the the Targaryens had just acquired a Dothraki army in the East, it's understandable that he wanted an experienced commander leading the troops.

Not sure that makes much sense. Lord Rodrik Arryn was a ten-year-old when he took the Vale and he served as Warden of the East, too. As did Jeyne Arryn, one assumes, who took her seat at a much younger age.

Not to mention that the very notion that the Dothraki would land in the Vale of Arryn of all places and then try to conquer Westeros from there is a very weird prospect. The person leading a royal army trying to stop a Targaryen-Dothraki invasion would be King Robert himself and his Hand, not some Warden of the East all by himself. Troops from the Vale would not be the first or second defense in such a scenario ... unless the invaders were stupid enough to land in the Vale.

If Robert felt that a grown up should be Warden of the East he should have given the honor to another Vale lord or knight - a man actually being there to actually raise troops. Jaime never left court so he was a worse Warden than Lord Robert would have been considering Lysa and her people could and would have raised troops in the Warden's name if the Vale had been attacked.

2 hours ago, Vaith said:

It doesn't really amount to much in AGOT and is quickly reversed in ACOK and ASOS too. Is it just the remnant of that earlier outline where Jaime wanted to grab power and had plans on the throne, I wonder?

Could be, although I'd say it technically fits well with things as they are. The king could have sent Jaime to the Vale to act as Warden there, just as he later named a new Warden of the North in Roose Bolton.

If I had to guess I'd say the chapter were Ned stupidly talks about Jaime getting the Wardenship of the West as well as that of the East once Tywin dies (which is completely nonsensical since Ned would have never seen Jaime as Tywin's heir) never got rewritten after George decided to invent the Kingsguard and the vows and rules regulating the order. We can be reasonably sure that this chapter reflects a very early strata of the AGoT material - as does the first Cat chapter where it is said there are no weirwood godswoods south of the Neck.

I'm inclined to believe the whole Kingsguard thing as a special order of knights with specific rules, etc. only developed when George started to write chapters set in KL. 'Evil Jaime' from the outline would have never worked if Jaime had been unable to acquire personal power measured in lordships and lands and bannermen, etc.

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Or Ned remembered things wrong. GRRM said POVs can be unreliable.

That's how one would likely explain it away, but such unreliability about basic facts introducing characters isn't the way George usually uses this kind of thing. Also considering Ned's close friendship with Robert I'd find it odd that he doesn't know how old one of his brothers is. I mean, don't you know how old the siblings of your best friend are?

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

He didn't  have to be a squire though.

The wiki says this:

"Although not an absolute requirement for becoming a knight, boys, often nobly born, can serve as pages and later squires."

"Regardless, at times, a lord's son is knighted without fulfilling the requirements. For example, Lord Caswell of Bitterbridge had his only son and heir, a weakling, knighted."

Robert could have just knighted Renly without him being a squire to anyone.

That is possible but pretty much unlikely. Not being a squire is basically the same as a bought or battlefield knighthood - and Jorah Mormont most likely served as a squire, too, like any Northman of high birth would. They don't have knights, but they do have mounted warriors of noble birth, and those men would have squires serving them. Robb isn't a knight either, yet he takes on Elmar Frey as a squire.

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Maybe - but Cersei's character was still not a secret.

Was it? We don't hear anything about Cersei being 'an evil queen' throughout Robert's reign. Proud and arrogant, yes, but not evil or cruel.

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Isn't her being ambitious, a bad influence on Robert, and a nasty person in general enough? You're being needlessly pedantic.  

I just would like why people can't stand each other.

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

If you want another answer - Cersei wanted to get rid of the Baratheon brothers, and she didn't like them. She made this dislike known, so they also didn't like her.

Could be. But I'd like that answer from George ;-).

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

It's not based on nothing, it's based on the Lannisters being known for being power hungry and treacherous, and Renly having good reason to want to increase his own power base and limit theirs. It's silly to think these people were trying to remove each other out of petty dislike....it's called politics.

What Lannister is ambitious? Jaime is a lazy ass, Tyrion an obscure dwarf, Tywin an old man at the Rock. Only Cersei likes power and she is a woman with no office.

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

It clearly shows she's grasping and would have tried to dominate court as soon as Robert died, which might not have been far off on the horizon given his drinking and eating habits.

Renly clearly did not expect his brother to die an early death. Else he would have never planned to give him a new queen in Margaery.

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Why would the Tyrells do that if they could get their daughter as queen by marrying her to Joffrey? They don't receive any benefits from just rebelling.

Joffrey was betrothed to Sansa Stark.

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

The Starks and Tullys were fighting for Ned, who was their Lord Paramount whom the Lannisters had imprisoned unjustly. 

And Renly would have called his banners to defend himself against a minor king whose government was dominated by 'evil advisers', i.e. the woman unsuited to rule as regent. He could have stormed the city and made himself the new regent of King Joffrey.

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

The Eyrie is impregnable, Dorne is protected by natural borders, while Storm's End is easily assailable. 

By what army? The City Watch in KL? Cersei had no army.

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

True, but Stannis had been doing nothing while everything in KL went down, so Renly probably thought he couldn't be depended upon.

I'd like to read such things in the book.

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Why is it ridiculous? We're clearly told by Olenna that Mace followed Renly because he wanted Margaery to be queen. Which wouldn't happen if they followed Renly just as rebels. What would be the outcome of this rebellion anyway? Holding a Great Council and choosing the next king after they deposed the Lannisters? Well then, why not just skip all that and go directly to crowning Renly, since that would be the likeliest outcome of such a council.

To oust the Lannisters from power and install Renly's people in Joffrey's government. The boy was his nephew and a Baratheon himself, after all.

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

And I'd say they were cynics, yeah. Renly said that those who followed him all wanted something from him, like lands and knighthoods and honors. Renly being charismatic, the Lannisters being hated tyrants, and Stannis being hated and also declaring late would also help things.

Who in the Reach and the Stormlands hates 'the Lannisters' for what reason?

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Randyll Tarly followed his liege lord, Mace Tyrell. We're told in Catelyn's chapters that the lords flocked around Renly because of his personal charisma and he looked like the second coming of Robert. 

Well, and Walder Frey didn't follow his liege lord, Hoster Tully, until Catelyn Stark made a deal with him. Why are the Reach lords and Stormlords just mindless drones following a man who was a traitor thrice over - ignoring the claims of Joffrey, Tommen, and Stannis?

There are explanations for stuff like that. One doesn't even know whether Brienne and Tarly and the others blister as quickly as they do when Renly is called 'Lord Renly' because they know they are all traitors or whether that's why they love Renly so much.

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

It's easy to follow a usurper if the other choice is a tyrant who was shooting random citizens with crossbow bolts and making men fight to the death for fun.

Last time I looked Joff did all that only after Renly had crowned himself. Popular opinion doesn't know how bad an apple Joff is. Even Olenna and Margaery want to talk to Sansa to confirm the rumors before they decide to murder him. Nobody in the Reach or the Stormlands crowned Renly because they thought Joffrey was a bad king.

12 minutes ago, Peach King said:

I'd say that was the case, it's not as if they they would have crowned Viserys if Robert's grandmother wasn't Rhaelle.

There is no way of knowing that, is there? What I think we can expect, though, is that Ned wouldn't have agreed to crown Robert if Robert hadn't had the better claim - which is the reason Ned himself gives.

But that's another problematic issue in this entire Baratheon thing - we still have no idea when exactly Robert decided he wanted to be king and whether there was a proclamation before or after the Trident, whether his men already 'Your Graced' him before the Trident (like the Blackfyre loyalists did with Daemon I & II), or whether Robert personally killing Rhaegar was the deciding factor there.

If they wanted Robert to be the king before the Trident then the blood claim would have been the deciding factor because then Robert simply hadn't yet won the war nor slain Rhaegar with his war hammer.