Boarders writing a novel

[The Grey Wolf]

Any advice regarding how to resize a map after pasting it into Word?

[Lord Patrek]

23 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Speaking as another small press author... I think it really depends on knowing what you're in for. Small presses have advantages over self-publishing, in that you don't have to organise (and pay for) cover or edits, and even if the book doesn't sell more than three copies, you aren't losing any money. Sure, you have to do significant promotional leg-work, but it's arguably a less risky (and arguably slightly more respectable) option than self-publishing, where you are putting your own money on the gamble. Self-publishing requires one to be business minded, whereas with a small press, one can treat writing as a risk-free hobby. I personally consider royalties (and the money I get via short stories) to be a happy bonus.

With the Big Five, sure, you're going to have far more promotion, but they're also much less likely to treat you as a human being (and you get zero say over the cover art).

I get what you're saying. But if you're only going to move 150 copies, is that really worth it?

Personally, I'd find it extremely depressing. So much so that I'd rather keep that novel on my hard drive and not get my hopes up, only to have my illusions shattered down the line.

How do you guys keep your spirits up?

[The Marquis de Leech]

1 hour ago, Lord Patrek said:

I get what you're saying. But if you're only going to move 150 copies, is that really worth it?

Personally, I'd find it extremely depressing. So much so that I'd rather keep that novel on my hard drive and not get my hopes up, only to have my illusions shattered down the line.

How do you guys keep your spirits up?

150 copies is better than no copies (it's also better than the average self-published author, who really does struggle to hit triple digits). It's also a sense of personal achievement - sure, I'm never going to be a Big Name, but most writers aren't, and I have also found a publisher on my own merits, which is nice. Hell, there are few things more heart-warming than noticing that a library copy of your book is on loan. All I can do now is stick at it, and hope I improve. My blog traffic has basically doubled since the Coronavirus hit, so at least a growing number of people know I exist, even if they aren't buying the book. 

Then there are the short stories. I was a bit harsh to say that they haven't worked at promotion. They haven't worked at getting more readers for Wise Phuul, but my blog occasionally records search terms used to find it - and there are people out there google searching for my sword and sorcery piece, "A Breath Through Silver." From which I can conclude I'm OK at writing sword and sorcery (why else would people google it?). 

Edited October 11, 2020 by The Marquis de Leech

[The Marquis de Leech]

If all else fails, there's also the H.P. Lovecraft precedent. The guy died a complete unknown in 1937, and is now a staple of his entire genre. History has a strange sense of humour.

[Lord Patrek]

4 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

150 copies is better than no copies (it's also better than the average self-published author, who really does struggle to hit triple digits). It's also a sense of personal achievement - sure, I'm never going to be a Big Name, but most writers aren't, and I have also found a publisher on my own merits, which is nice. Hell, there are few things more heart-warming than noticing that a library copy of your book is on loan. All I can do now is stick at it, and hope I improve. My blog traffic has basically doubled since the Coronavirus hit, so at least a growing number of people know I exist, even if they aren't buying the book. 

Then there are the short stories. I was a bit harsh to say that they haven't worked at promotion. They haven't worked at getting more readers for Wise Phuul, but my blog occasionally records search terms used to find it - and there are people out there google searching for my sword and sorcery piece, "A Breath Through Silver." From which I can conclude I'm OK at writing sword and sorcery (why else would people google it?). 

While I agree that 150 copies are better than no copies sold, is it really a sense of personal achievement? As I said, personally I'd find it depressing in a major way.

It's much easier to get a deal with a small press than with traditional publishing houses, so I don't consider that "making it." Which is exactly why, when my agent wasn't able to secure that book deal, I didn't even consider going down the road of self-publishing or small presses. Like Starkess, I find that the dream of trad pub dies hard.

It's nice to see that low sales have not killed your enthusiasm and your desire to continue. It would have been a dealbreaker for me, that's for sure.

I'm loving the manuscript I'm working on now and it's likely the very best thing I've ever written. But if my agent doesn't like it, or if he can't sell the rights for whatever reason, I doubt that I'd consider either self-publishing or small presses. I'd probably turn the page on that one and start working on another project.

I mean, it took Brandon Sanderson 12 rejected novels before getting a break. How the man kept going, I'll never know. But I've only had 2 rejected novels, both of them shopped by the same agent but in different genres. If there's going to be a third one, so be it. . . :/

[The Marquis de Leech]

Again, expectations. I'd done enough background reading on the publishing industry to know what to expect, so far as sales go (and that even small presses will typically reject 95% of manuscripts).

Different writers have different motivations. For me, I'm happy to consider it a hobby. Would I like to be a Big Name? Sure. But I'm not crying myself to sleep every night, and who knows what the future will bring? 

[Derfel Cadarn]

On 10/10/2020 at 3:20 AM, The Marquis de Leech said:

Speaking as another small press author... I think it really depends on knowing what you're in for. Small presses have advantages over self-publishing, in that you don't have to organise (and pay for) cover or edits, and even if the book doesn't sell more than three copies, you aren't losing any money. Sure, you have to do significant promotional leg-work, but it's arguably a less risky (and arguably slightly more respectable) option than self-publishing, where you are putting your own money on the gamble. Self-publishing requires one to be business minded, whereas with a small press, one can treat writing as a risk-free hobby. I personally consider royalties (and the money I get via short stories) to be a happy bonus.

With the Big Five, sure, you're going to have far more promotion, but they're also much less likely to treat you as a human being (and you get zero say over the cover art).

Incidentally, I have just requested that my local library stock Resurrection Men. I'll let you know if they decide to stock it.  

Thanks! My local library has a copy of Resurrection Men (I donated a copy, and would have donated a copy of my other two books had Covid not interrupted.

10 hours ago, Lord Patrek said:

I get what you're saying. But if you're only going to move 150 copies, is that really worth it?

Personally, I'd find it extremely depressing. So much so that I'd rather keep that novel on my hard drive and not get my hopes up, only to have my illusions shattered down the line.

How do you guys keep your spirits up?

One thing I've learned is that it's a marathon, not a sprint. I've sold roughly 150 copies so far of Resurrection Men in the two years since it was published, but it is still selling. On checking Amazon, in the past several days I've sold another copy in the UK judging by the sales ranking. Also at least one copy of Lord of the Hunt on the Australian Amazon, judging by a drop in sales rank there.  Promoting on Facebook book and fantasy pages has kept sales ticking over, small but at least something. 

This spring and summer I intended to promote the paperback in bookshops, trying to arrange signings and readings, albeit again Covid got in the way. All the same. I managed to sell 4 copies of my first two books just before lockdown to a small Edinburgh bookshop. I was in the process of trying to arrange a reading/signing in one of my local Waterstones, but I'll need to wait until restrictions ease.

While sales are low so far, it's still experience in the industry. Unlike most small presses, Elsewhen pay a small three-figure advance, so with three books sold I've breached the four figure mark. True, I'll need to earn that back (which will take time!) before I'm eligible for royalties.

Had I self-published, I'd have had to pay for editing and formatting and a cover, and that would be just for an ebook version. If I wanted a physical edition, that would be even more money. Instead, by going traditional route even if with a small press rather than a Big 5. I've got three books out there digital and paperback, been paid for all three, received 5 free copies (plus a couple of promotional copies), attended the launch of the first two books at conventions (the third was supposed to launch at Satellite 7 in Glasgow in the spring). I was lucky enough to get Waterstones to stock a couple of copies of Resurrection Men, and it was a small thrill to see them on a bookshelf, next to the Expanse novels.

When I'm ready to query agents again, I've at least got writing credits to add to the query letter.

[Lord Patrek]

3 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

When I'm ready to query agents again, I've at least got writing credits to add to the query letter.

Well, given those numbers, it wouldn't give you anymore credibility. Selling a couple of short stories to popular online or print venues would be more "prestigious."

But as you both pointed out, at least you didn't lose any money in these ventures. Which is the only silver lining as far as I can see.

Have you guys tried to be part of Mark Lawrence indie book showdown he does every year? Or is it only open to self-published works?

[polishgenius]

Pat, consider that from your blog you were already a recognisable name in the fantasy scene when you went to publish your first novel so your experience and expectations might have been and still be a bit different to the majority who are not?


Also consider that with your platform and some of the connections you got, if you went self-published or indie you'd still have a massive head start in promotional platform on almost any other selfpub writer, but whether you want to use that or not is your call I guess.

[Lord Patrek]

Oh, without a doubt. Especially back then, but probably not so much today. Way back when, at a time when the blog racked up about half a million page views per year (it's hard to believe that the Hotlist predates Facebook, Twitter, Goodreads, Netgalley, etc), it gave me a lot of exposure and helped me sign with Matt Bialer for representation.

When we failed to get that bookdeal, it never really occurred to me to go down the self-publishing road. Small presses are NEVER an option for agented material, I'm afraid.

Given my "popularity" back in the day, a lot of people claimed that my fantasy novel could have sold in the 4-figure ballpark. That could have meant a few grands in my pocket had it been true. But the trad pub dream was too strong then and is pretty much alive now. And ebooks were not as big back in around 2008 as they are now. And there were a lot less companies offering to format everything and get things into shape for you.

A part of me has always wondered if I made a mistake when I decided to simply forget about those two manuscripts. Going indie might have made me like Michael J. Sullivan and got the ball rolling. I'll never know.

Things are much different today and I'm not sure how many units I could potentially move should I elect to self-publish the novel I'm working on now. As a promotional platform, it's hard to evaluate how much impact the Hotlist would turn out to be. You may recall that Subterranean Press approached me to compile and edit an anthology back in 2009, which were the heydays of the blog. And though the anthology was great and we even got a starred review in PW, and though I pimped it quite heavily on the Hotlist prior and at the time it was released, we never managed to sell the 1500 copies printed. It did okay, but the last 200 or 300 copies were included in Subpress grab bags during the following months.

So the jury's still out on whether or not the Hotlist would really help me or not in that regard. Having said that, it would indeed give me a massive head start on both Derfel and the Marquis. But would it translate into a much greater amount of copies sold? I have no idea. . .

[polishgenius]

Fair nuff on all that. Didn't mean to insinuate you hadn't thought it through or anything and true, the selfpub market was way different then. But yeah, your perspective is defo different to the other two guys here.

[Kyoshi]

Reading that you saw your book was on loan, @The Marquis de Leech, and that you saw yours on a shelf against known titles, @Derfel Cadarn, kind of made me smile ... okay, it definitely made me smile. That's kind of beautiful.

[Lord Patrek]

5 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Fair nuff on all that. Didn't mean to insinuate you hadn't thought it through or anything and true, the selfpub market was way different then. But yeah, your perspective is defo different to the other two guys here.

Sure, but only for marketing purposes. If your book sucks, it doesn't matter how many followers you have!

[The Marquis de Leech]

8 hours ago, Lord Patrek said:

Well, given those numbers, it wouldn't give you anymore credibility. Selling a couple of short stories to popular online or print venues would be more "prestigious."

But as you both pointed out, at least you didn't lose any money in these ventures. Which is the only silver lining as far as I can see.

Have you guys tried to be part of Mark Lawrence indie book showdown he does every year? Or is it only open to self-published works?

The Mark Lawrence thing is for self-published only. He's been explicitly asked about that.

[The Grey Wolf]

@The Marquis de Leech

Could you elaborate on the Mark Lawrence thing? Sounds like it would be of interest to me since I intend to self-publish my anthology.

[The Marquis de Leech]

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@The Marquis de Leech

Could you elaborate on the Mark Lawrence thing? Sounds like it would be of interest to me since I intend to self-publish my anthology.

http://mark---lawrence.blogspot.com/2018/06/the-official-self-published-fantasy.html

[The Grey Wolf]

4 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

http://mark---lawrence.blogspot.com/2018/06/the-official-self-published-fantasy.html

Thanks!

[The Grey Wolf]

No anthologies or short stories. Darn.

[Lord Patrek]

Well, anthologies or short stories can't really compete with novels as far as depth and characterization are concerned. So it's understandable.

[Lord Patrek]

Are you guys on r/fantasy on Reddit? That's where Lawrence started his contest and that's where hundreds/thousands of indie works are being pimped on a regular basis. There is a huge market for non-traditionally published SFF works there.

If you're not, you are potentially missing out big time.