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Rhaegar: How do you feel about him?


James Steller

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20 hours ago, Peach King said:

Ned - Thinks offhandedly that Rhaegar probably didn't visit brothels often.

Note he doesn't think of Aerys unfavorably either, so not that great a selling point

 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

It's entirely true, the only thing Ned thinks positively about him is that he was not a man to go brothels.

Ned does not think ill of Aerys. Hell, you have Ned's thoughts and he does not think ill of him.

But we do have Ned's thoughts on the Mad King. Those thoughts are simply not negative, no matter how one to spin it. We have Ned's thoughts on his son is hmm positive and the rest can be sumed in "Robert can't stand this guy,".  Ned does not regard Aerys highly just as, as much as people want to believe it, he does not regard Rhaegar highly, he is pretty neutral and indifferent towards them. He has learnt to cope with the past and has moved on, besides Rhaegar and Aerys were destroyed and so was their House, that's why he is surprised that Robert couldn't let it go.

You are both missing the context - with his comment about Rhaegar, he puts him into contrast with Robert. Robert, his BF, his sister's betrothed. And he draws this comparison in favour of Rhaegar. 

As for Aerys... the comment Ned makes is that the Mad King did his last mad act. That sums it all - Aerys was mad, why hate on a mad man? It's like hating on a storm or earthquake. Compare this with Ned's attitude towards Tywin, who did not murder any Starks: he still despises Tywin for his cruelty.

 

- Back to the OP: I find Rhaegar an intriguing character, whose motivations remain largely a mystery. It seems that GRRM is depicting him as a tragic figure rather than a villain, with a lot of respect from both his friends and his enemies. I think we'll be getting a good man who fucked up big time and it cost lives, just like Ned or Robb. I don't hate the two, rather the contrary, and I suspect that I will eventually feel similar about Rhaegar, when I finally have enough information to pass a judgement.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You are both missing the context - with his comment about Rhaegar, he puts him into contrast with Robert. Robert, his BF, his sister's betrothed. And he draws this comparison in favour of Rhaegar.

Not so much as in favour but that Rhaegar didn't seem like a man who visited brothels and Robert totally is.

 

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

As for Aerys... the comment Ned makes is that the Mad King did his last mad act. That sums it all - Aerys was mad, why hate on a mad man? It's like hating on a storm or earthquake. Compare this with Ned's attitude towards Tywin, who did not murder any Starks: he still despises Tywin for his cruelty.

I didn't know that Westerosi were so advanced people, that's rather progressive of him. Aerys brutally killed his father and brothers and a dozen at the very least of friends. Martin said that Aerys acts radicalized Ned. This seems like a very weird rationalization. Aerys was mad but as far as we can tell he was on full control of his body, he was just beside mad, cruel.

And Ned despises Tywin because the man is alive and kicking and enjoying the perks of his cruelty and betrayal and joining late to the rebels cause. Rhaegar and Aerys are dead, their House destroyed and their names tarnished. Ned got the revenge/justice he wanted and Ned moved on. Which is why he is so annoyed with Robert being unabled to do the same.

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17 hours ago, Bhain Shadowien said:

Rhaegar is complicated. We are very clearly being withheld information about him. By most accounts he seems life a decent guy, perhaps depressed and a bit obsessive, but overall a good person. Then we have this story about him either kidnapping or eloping with Lyanna. And that sets off events in a way that paints him in a pretty negative light. I personally don't think he kidnapped or eloped with Lyanna.

Agree. Going by what we have, he was a decent guy; everything else is pure speculation.

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I think something else was going on there and the story told to Brandon had some liberties taken. I'd be very interested to know who told Brandon that Rhaegar kidnapped his sister.

Same here. And it’s pretty clear Brandon was a reckless, hot-headed bloke. I might add that he reacted like an eejit. But I do so very much want to know who told him what and when. Some speculate it was LF but I don’t buy it. 

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I'm also curious as to how long events preceded before Rhaegar found out about the war. This isn't our world. News travels slowly. Exactly when did he find out that the realm was at war? Why was Lyanna with him? Was she even with him or just people associated with him? There's way too much that we don't know to truly judge him. 

Yes, that’s the bottom line for me: too much we don’t know about him and circumstances to judge him fairly.

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I also find it interesting that even when Robert throws Rhaegar's crimes in his face, Ned still doesn't think ill of the man. I know someone pointed out that Ned doesn't think ill towards the mad king, but that's not entirely true. He does make a comment about them being just as bad if they are willing to assassinate a child. It's not much, and it might not show how he truly feels as much as he knows the room feels, but I trust that Ned does think that way about the mad king. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that thoughts of the mad king made Ned feel sad more than angry.

Ned doesn’t wear his heart on his sleeve. I feel pretty confident that he did think very poorly of Mad Aerys - and how could he not, given what transpired and how Brandon and Rickard were killed? I agree this whole horrible mess made Ned more sad than anything. 

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And the story is that Rhaegar raped his sister which led to her death. Ned has every reason to have ill thoughts about the man, but he doesn't. His only thought is borderline positive and doesn't fit the narrative if Rhaegar went after his sister for love or lust.

:agree:

I’ll add that Ned, after events at the ToJ knew Lyanna hadn’t been kidnapped nor raped, and that’s why he never thinks about kidnap and/or rape. 

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This is just my long-winded way of saying that I don't have strong opinions on Rhaegar one way or the other. There's just too much we don't know and I'm constantly wondering what the missing details are as opposed to trying to identify my feelings on him based on the info we do have. 

Well said. And ditto. 

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From what I have read about him, I can appreciate him because he was a bookworm and wanted to possibly overthrow Aerys(the only person that wanted to do right by the realm regarding his mad father/king) and he is most likely Jon’s bio dad so he gets points  

I’m a Targaryen fan so I am biased towards Rhaegar. But we don’t know a lot about him so I can put him in the okay pile for now. 
 

I will say that his biggest offense so far was towards Elia. 

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17 hours ago, Bhain Shadowien said:

Rhaegar is complicated. We are very clearly being withheld information about him. By most accounts he seems life a decent guy, perhaps depressed and a bit obsessive, but overall a good person. Then we have this story about him either kidnapping or eloping with Lyanna. And that sets off events in a way that paints him in a pretty negative light. I personally don't think he kidnapped or eloped with Lyanna.

I don't think he kidnapped or eloped with her either. The timing of it makes zero sense to me.

Rhaegar is difficult to judge. By all accounts, he seemed like a good person. I don't think he sought to humiliate his wife at Harrenhal or that he abandoned her and his children as has been suggested. One of my favorite lines in ADwD is Wyman's Manderly scorn at a Frey having a dragon's name and he fought against him on the Trident. That shows a level of respect, if anything.

Given the situation the 7Ks are about to face with the Long Night and the Others, I find it difficult to condemn him for reading about prophecies or trying to get ahead of whatever is about to go down, especially when we see how depleted and ignored the NW is, how their messages for assistance went largely ignored, how much scrambling Jon had to do, and how everyone is completely unprepared for this. 

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11 hours ago, Mouse Of No House said:

I think one of the reasons he's either beloved or hated by a majority is because what we're told about him is frankly ridiculous. Like we're supposed to believe he's some superhuman perfect man who's also the most attractive sensitive and charming man in the seven kingdoms who knows things no one else knows and can understand, and never did any wrong.

No, you are supposed to be a bit more subtle about it than that.
He's a Targaryen, a 'golden boy', much like Dany is a Targaryen and a 'golden girl' -" the most beautiful woman in the world". Thats not supposed to tell us anything about them except that thats an outsider's ignorant view and they (or some of them) do have 'special' Targaryen gifts, for better or worse. I doubt very much, for example, that Dany truly is the most beautiful woman in the world, but I don't doubt that her Targaryen colouring and features make her a literally extra-ordinary beauty. The same sort of thing applies to Rhaegar.

He's not written as perfect, very far from it. He's gifted, absolutely - 'able above all'. He's extremely intelligent, an expert jouster, which is the peacetime best mark of a warrior in their world, got the Targ 'attractiveness', the highest (second, but will be first) social position in the land, etc etc. But these aren't things that tell us much about him. They are merely 'gifts' he has been born with, so to speak.
And the truth is, that we are not all born 'equal' in these sorts of things. Some people do get 'gifted' more than their fair share it seems. Its natural to have an instinctive dislike of such people, due to the 'unfairness' of them having so much more in the way of 'gifts', through no effort of their own. But that is an issue with us, not with them.
What matters more, is the person they are. How they interact with others. How they treat others.

This is harder to see, but there are clues scattered throughout the books.

Barristan describes Rhaegar

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The old man considered a moment. "Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded. 

Able - seems to me this is just a description of gifts. And perhaps how they are used.
Determined - this speaks more to character. Can be positive or negative, usually positive.
Deliberate - again, this to me speaks of character. 
Dutiful - again, this speaks more to character to me.
Single minded - thats character again, but more often a negative than a positive.

What we are shown by GRRM is a gifted man who struggles with some combination of fate, duty, responsibility etc. He is melancholy, sad, sometimes withdraws from the world, but he always does his duty, even when its not to his choice. He takes his time to decide what he thinks is right (deliberate, dutiful), and he goes after that course with everything he has (determined, dutiful), regardless of all else (single-minded).
Yet at the same time, he seems to have the respect of friends, non-friend acquaintances and enemies and the love of the general populace. And he seems to have maintained a good family relationship with his own family, as best we can judge. These things tell me that he generally had good judgement, and his deliberation, dutiful-ness and determination largely served good purposes.

Barristan is a key figure in our understanding - much of our most reliable information comes from him. In assessing Barristan's descriptions of Rhaegar we note the following:
Barristan was around Rhaegar practically all the prince's life, yet never closely involved with the prince. He thus has access to data, but little or no inherent 'bias'. He's not a Rhaegar fanboy (as JonCon is!), nor is he a hater (as Robert is!)
Barristan is careful around Dany not to be too harsh on the Targaryen family and alienate her, but he does strongly differentiate between Rhaegar and Viserys/Aerys. and he does start to tell her the hard truth about her father and brother. He is actually telling Dany about her father and brother's madness, when she stops him because she isn't ready. So he's not just sucking up to her about Rhaegar, and he's not just whitewashing Targaryens. (I quoted two long passages from ASoS here but then messed up putting them in spoilers to shrink them and ... I'm not going to redo all that cutting and pasting line by line!)

As another relative neutral, we have is Jorah. Thoughtless people tend to dismiss Jorah's talk about Rhaegar as meaningless Targaryen suck-up to Dany, but that quite silly when you look at it. Jorah has no need to bring up Rhaegar at any time - if it was just suckup he could use anyone. Instead he brings Rhaegar into conversations when there is no need of suck-up and no need to bring Rhaegar in.
 

Spoiler
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"I hit him," she said, wonder in her voice. Now that it was over, it seemed like some strange dream that she had dreamed. "Ser Jorah, do you think … he'll be so angry when he gets back …" She shivered. "I woke the dragon, didn't I?"
Ser Jorah snorted. "Can you wake the dead, girl? Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake."

This is definitely no suckup since he just compared Viserys, whom Dany is afraid of and still respectful of at this stage, as less than the shadow of a snake. There was also no need to bring Rhaegar into the conversation. This is clearly a genuine respect for Rhaegar.

 

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"I will not have her harmed," Dany said. "I claim her. Do as I command you, or Khal Drogo will know the reason why."
"Ai, Khaleesi," Jhogo replied, kicking his horse. Quaro and the others followed his lead, the bells in their hair chiming.
"Go with them," she commanded Ser Jorah.
"As you command." The knight gave her a curious look. "You are your brother's sister, in truth."
"Viserys?" She did not understand.
"No," he answered. "Rhaegar." He galloped off.

This is when she halts the rape of the lamb women. There is no suckup, no Targaryen fannishness, just a simple comment that she doesn't even understand.

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"I am not Viserys."
"No," he admitted. "There is more of Rhaegar in you, I think, but even Rhaegar could be slain. Robert proved that on the Trident, with no more than a warhammer. Even dragons can die."

Again, this is no fanboy sucking up. Jorah points out that Rhaegar was slain, with just a warhammer. Even dragons can die. What he does do is show respect for Rhaegar and differentiate Rhaegar from Viserys.
 

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"My queen," the big man said slowly, "all you say is true. But Rhaegar lost on the Trident. He lost the battle, he lost the war, he lost the kingdom, and he lost his life. His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate, and Robert the Usurper rode over his corpse to steal the Iron Throne. Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

Again, this is not fanboyism or sucking up. He's stating that Rhaegar was a failure. Valiant, noble and honourable, but most importantly a failure.
All those gifts, all that dutifulness, all that deliberation, all that determination all the true dragon-ness, all the valour, all the nobility, all the honour, and it all meant nothing in the end. He lost.

 

 Then we have his family situation.
Dany's vision, assuming it is a true one, sees him with Elia and Aegon after Aegon's birth. 

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Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"
"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

There is no indication here of any poor relationship between Rhaegar and Elia, that he'd previously humiliated her, just as has been none from Harrenhal after he crowned Lyanna. In fact there is no indication anywhere that Elia ever felt humiliated or betrayed by him. The assumption of her humiliation is purely speculative based upon assumptions of how events we see very briefly from only a very narrow perspective might impact upon her.
What I see here is a man and his wife, respectful of each other, not divided by betrayal or humiliation.
And the song, that she requested, is sweet, as well as sad.

The other hint I see about Rhagear's familial relationships is a little more distant, but in some ways even more meaningful. Tyrion, a person who has close proximity to the truth and is trying to demonstrate to Oberyn that he is telling the truth and can be trusted, tells us that Rhaenys was dragged from beneath her father's bed before being savagely murdered by Lorch. This reads far truer than the sycophantic and heavily biased writings of Yandel. It seems that GRRM is telling us that when Rhaenys was frightened, the place she felt safest, the place she ran to and hid, was under her father's bed. That very strongly seems to symbolise both on a real and a metaphorical level the level of trust and love and safety that Rhaegar has managed to instill in his relationship with his daughter, despite all his duties and cares troubles.
For me, this more than anything else, tells me about Rhaegar the person.
 

11 hours ago, Mouse Of No House said:

He humiliates

Did he humiliate her?
Its possible. Doesn't fit well with what GRRM has given us about him though, nor is there any indication in the books she ever felt humilated..
Perhaps she wasn't humiliated. Perhaps she was more involved and more aware than you assume. She seems to be aware of the SoIaF and 3HotD issue. I suspect she was also aware of the KotLT and that he was going to crown Lyanna because of it, before he did. There's no record or hint of any bad blood between them after Harrenhal. She's also known to be unable to have a third child after Aegon. And it is known that they were not 'in love', but a political match of Aerys' choice.

11 hours ago, Mouse Of No House said:

and cheats on his wife

Did he cheat on his wife?
Perhaps. Doesn't match his characterisation of dutiful. Nor the scene between them in Dany's vision. 

If they were a political match rather than a love match, and she literally can no longer carry children without risk to her life, there is no reason for them to be lovers any more.
A third head still needs to be produced.
A third sibling might also reduce the likelihood of Aegon and Rhaenys having to marry each other. I don't know if that might factor in to Elia's thinking, nor does anyone else at this stage.

11 hours ago, Mouse Of No House said:

then elopes with a 14 year old girl,

Elopes?
Again, perhaps. 
And again, perhaps there is more to this than we understand yet. A second marriage for example? Thats not eloping.

And the 14 yr old is silly and petty emotional emphasis. Lyanna was old enough for marriage in their society. She was already promised to a womanising boor and strong arguments have been made that her marriage may have been brought forward due to the political situation.

11 hours ago, Mouse Of No House said:

it's ok because prophesy,

One has to be particularly silly to dismiss prophecy's import in this world given that the entire existence of the Targaryen dynasty is 100% through following an insane sounding prophecy. If they didn't take prophecy seriously none of them would ever have existed.

11 hours ago, Mouse Of No House said:

because his wife was Dornish and ok with it,

I don;t think many people think her Dornishness has much to do with it.

11 hours ago, Mouse Of No House said:

because they were in love. What!? Seriously if this doesn't explain why so many people WANT to hate him then I don't know what will. I try to avoid it but I am guilty of reading a few anti-Rhaegar fanfics and can understand where people are coming from. 

What does fanfiction, ie bullshit, have to do with understanding ASoIaF?

6 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

That's certainly true. You'd think with how little info we get about him, people wouldn't forget things about his character, but most theories and "interpretations" of Rhaegar rely on extrapolating from a single action of his. Like the idea that he's irresponsible because went MIA with Lyanna -that ignores that he's described as dutiful and promised Jaime he'd sort out Aerys. It's like people don't understand that human beings can sometimes do things inconsistent with their regular personality.

Or even that we have extremely incomplete pictures of a number of critical events, so making judgements around them is somewhat foolish.

6 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Apart from the first thing, everything you list is conjecture.

Even the first thing is conjecture. There is no evidence that Elia ever felt humiliated by Rhaegar. Only conjecture from people who are trying to interpret certain events with minimal knowledge.

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Ned wasn't perfect and the guy made mistakes, but what did he do that's comparable to what Rhaegar did?

What did Rhaegar do? Do you know? Do youhave some secret insight into GRRM's brain?

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

And sure, we don't all the details, but every theory I've ever seen that seeks to absolve Rhaegar of responsibility relies on a highly convoluted chain of events and IMO devalues the story by turning Rhaegar from a complex, grey character to the actual shining prince that his fanboys make him out to be.

GRRM makes him out to be a shining prince. But still a failure. 
Its a tragedy, not a farce.

3 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

The timing of when Rhaegar heard about the war doesn't matter. That a political crisis would ensue when the married crown prince runs off with the Warden of the North's daughter (who was betrothed to the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands), especially without any sort of explanation, was obvious and foreseeable. It also doesn't take much foresight to realize that Aerys handling that situation was extremely dangerous and irresponsible.

Well, lets assume that's what Rhaegar did - we don't actually know that remember.
Lets also remember that Rhaegar was deliberate. He didn't act on whims. He considered things, thought through consequences and reactions. He understood the political situation, social complexities, cultural nuances, and the characters involved, far better than we do.
Lets also remember that Rickard, to the best of our knowledge, never mentioned Lyanna when he went to KL. Neither did Brandon even, as best we know. Why not? Her abduction appears to be the catalyst! Yet her safety or her return are not their interest? Did they know things we don't as yet? Had they had communications already, that we are not privy to? Is there a great deal more to unravel before we understand that situation more completely? 
Lets also consider that he was determined, and single-minded. Its possible that he just decided "to hell with everything else, this is what is most important". But I can't reconcile just leaving the situation and disappearing with being able and dutiful. Following one duty above all others, does not require total abandonment of all others, just putting them lower in the pecking order. Nor is it 'able' to create such a situation and totally ignore it.

In the end, what is clear, is that Rhaegar the gifted, melancholy, troubled, golden boy, supposed saviour of the world, ultimately(?) made mistakes despite his deliberation (definitely not perfect!) and failed apparently about as disastrously as is possible. 
Unless of course, that disaster ultimately ends in saving the world from the long night. We'll see, unless GRRM dies first.

 

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24 minutes ago, corbon said:

Then we have his family situation.
Dany's vision, assuming it is a true one, sees him with Elia and Aegon after Aegon's birth. 

You raise fair points, but I'd just like to interject-

This recent reddit post pointed out that Rhaegar told Elia that she must have one more baby after her pregnancy nearly killed her:

Which is....hilariously insensitive (I agree with the poster who said Rhaegar probably had some type of personality disorder).

24 minutes ago, corbon said:

Did he humiliate her?
Its possible. Doesn't fit well with what GRRM has given us about him though, nor is there any indication in the books she ever felt humilated..
Perhaps she wasn't humiliated. Perhaps she was more involved and more aware than you assume. She seems to be aware of the SoIaF and 3HotD issue. I suspect she was also aware of the KotLT and that he was going to crown Lyanna because of it, before he did. There's no record or hint of any bad blood between them after Harrenhal. She's also known to be unable to have a third child after Aegon. And it is known that they were not 'in love', but a political match of Aerys' choice.

Ned thinks in his POV that when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, "all smiles died".

https://www.paolopuggioni.com/tourney/

The official artist who got GRRM's input on his drawing on the Tourney of Harrenhall also says here that GRRM wanted him to depict Elia as "stiff-backed and trying to act as if nothing was wrong". If she was acting like nothing was wrong that suggests there was something wrong about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna, which makes it likely she wasn't privy to his plans.

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28 minutes ago, Peach King said:

You raise fair points, but I'd just like to interject-

This recent reddit post pointed out that Rhaegar told Elia that she must have one more baby after her pregnancy nearly killed her:

No, he said there must be one more. He didn't say that Elia had to produce it.
Its also not clear in the vision whether he said that to Dany or to Elia.

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Which is....hilariously insensitive (I agree with the poster who said Rhaegar probably had some type of personality disorder).

Well, yes, it still sounds a bit insensitive. Although that depends in part on how much she already knows. And remember, this is after he's just told her about Aegon's song being the Song of Ice and Fire.

You do remember the single minded bit? ;)

I don't put much truck with the plethora of 'personality disorders' which get put about these days. A dose of single mindedness will cover that nicely enough. 

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Ned thinks in his POV that when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, "all smiles died".

Yeah. And that is almost certainly an expression, rather than an absolute fact. For a start, Ned wouldn't have been able to see everyone. Secondly, given the political factionalism at court, its certain that at least some people would have been delighted by any 'mistake' like this by Rhaegar.

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I note that the artist is somewhat ignorant of the wider picture, calling Elia Rhaegar's 'betrothed' (they'd been married more than a year and a half and had one child already with another probably on the way) and saying he forced Lyanna to stay with him (which he certainly did not - any 'abduction' was many months later).

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The official artist who got GRRM's input on his drawing on the Tourney of Harrenhall also says here that GRRM wanted him to depict Elia as "stiff-backed and trying to act as if nothing was wrong". If she was acting like nothing was wrong that suggests there was something wrong about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna, which makes it likely she wasn't privy to his plans.

Thats interesting. Its the very first hint I've seen anywhere like that. Dubious source or not, its still interesting.
It also fits perfectly with Elia knowing what is coming and knowing that its going to look 'bad' to most people and she's responsible for showing that its not actually what it looks like.
I can't see any reason Rhaegar would tell her what he is going to do and not tell her why - the KotLT story.
I wonder if he told her what was happening and why, and she didn't agree with him on the political risks. 

ETA; Just to be clear, you've made an error of analysis when you say its unlikely she knew his plans. Its clear according to the source that she did know his plans.

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Jon Arryn and Robert and Lord Hunter joking a moment before what was happening dawned on them, Ned watching as Rhaegar was about to stop in front of his sister (who must have been seated quite close), mad Aerys glowering in the distance, Elia stiff-backed and trying to act as if nothing was wrong, Jon Connington probably looking vaguely sad (read: jealous), and so on.

This is before the act has been done. Elia knew it was coming. Rhaegar must have told her. I think she disagreed with him on its value, probably assessed the political risk was great. But Rhaegar was single-minded. It was right, it was honourable, it was just. He was going to do it regardless and deal with the consequences after. And she is the one that has most to do with dealing with the consequences, which explains her body language.

There is still no hint anywhere of a rift between Rhaegar and Elia after Harrenhal.

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50 minutes ago, corbon said:

Even the first thing is conjecture. There is no evidence that Elia ever felt humiliated by Rhaegar. Only conjecture from people who are trying to interpret certain events with minimal knowledge.

The reason I gave that one a pass is because there's a difference between Elia being publicly humiliated and her feeling humiliated. Naming someone other than his wife the QoLaB and having an indiscreet affair is seen as a slight to the wife by the public, whether or not she is personally upset by it.

I should add, to take these isolated incidents to mean he was politically ignorant or malicious or having poor personal skills, as many here do, ignores what we are explicitly told about him - that he was intelligent and beloved. It does not mean everyone who thinks or speaks well of him is wrong. It means actions with Lyanna are uncharacteristic of him. And we don't need elaborate theories to explain why because we are already told it was because he was in love.

45 minutes ago, corbon said:

Thats interesting. Its the very first hint I've seen anywhere like that. Dubious source or not, its still interesting.
It also fits perfectly with Elia knowing what is coming and knowing that its going to look 'bad' to most people and she's responsible for showing that its not actually what it looks like.

The simpler interpretation is just that she didn't want to make a scene.

43 minutes ago, corbon said:

No, he said there must be one more. He didn't say that Elia had to produce it.
Its also not clear in the vision whether he said that to Dany or to Elia.

I mean, it was a vision and he looked right at Dany as he said it. If those aren't giant blinking signs that it wasn't something he really said to Elia, I don't know what is.

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

No, he said there must be one more. He didn't say that Elia had to produce it.
Its also not clear in the vision whether he said that to Dany or to Elia.

Well, yes, it still sounds a bit insensitive. Although that depends in part on how much she already knows. And remember, this is after he's just told her about Aegon's song being the Song of Ice and Fire.

Those two options are possible, but Rhaegar also impregnated Elia again just 6 months after Rhaenys was born, which you can't say is not a dick move. Whatever he was, he was not a good husband.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

You do remember the single minded bit? ;)

I don't put much truck with the plethora of 'personality disorders' which get put about these days. A dose of single mindedness will cover that nicely enough.

On a second read I might have been a bit ableist - sorry.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

 And that is almost certainly an expression, rather than an absolute fact. For a start, Ned wouldn't have been able to see everyone. Secondly, given the political factionalism at court, its certain that at least some people would have been delighted by any 'mistake' like this by Rhaegar.

Yes, the World of Ice and Fire talks about that:

Quote

 

And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.
Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna's brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister's honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. Eddard Stark, Brandon's younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince's gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due...but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.

 

Note everyone still thinks it's an insult.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

I note that the artist is somewhat ignorant of the wider picture, calling Elia Rhaegar's 'betrothed' (they'd been married more than a year and a half and had one child already with another probably on the way) and saying he forced Lyanna to stay with him (which he certainly did not - any 'abduction' was many months later).

Those are the artist's thoughts, not GRRM's thoughts, which are shown in italics. Whether they are accurate or not is irrelevant.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Thats interesting. Its the very first hint I've seen anywhere like that. Dubious source or not, its still interesting.
It also fits perfectly with Elia knowing what is coming and knowing that its going to look 'bad' to most people and she's responsible for showing that its not actually what it looks like.
I can't see any reason Rhaegar would tell her what he is going to do and not tell her why - the KotLT story.
I wonder if he told her what was happening and why, and she didn't agree with him on the political risks. 

ETA; Just to be clear, you've made an error of analysis when you say its unlikely she knew his plans. Its clear according to the source that she did know his plans.

This is before the act has been done. Elia knew it was coming. Rhaegar must have told her. I think she disagreed with him on its value, probably assessed the political risk was great. But Rhaegar was single-minded. It was right, it was honourable, it was just. He was going to do it regardless and deal with the consequences after. And she is the one that has most to do with dealing with the consequences, which explains her body language.

Dubious source? It's from the official artist of the World of Ice and Fire.

Yes she knew it was coming - because this was just before Rhaegar stopped by where Lyannna was sitting and was about to crown the Queen of Love and Beauty. Which is why Jon Con looked jealous. 

And even if she knew (which there is no evidence of btw) she wasn't happy about it.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

There is still no hint anywhere of a rift between Rhaegar and Elia after Harrenhal.

Elia was said to be kind and gentle, and there was no "rift" between her and Rhaegar after he nearly killed her with her second pregnancy, so that says nothing.

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On 5/26/2020 at 10:32 PM, Finley McLeod said:

I like most of what you are saying.  I do take exception with your suggestion of making a power move against King Aerys II.  The only things he can do which will get approval from me are:  (a) do his best to support the heir chosen by his father, Prince Viserys, (b) stay away from politics and just keep on writing songs (c) join the NW.

Rhaegar failed the people of Westeros.  He should have kicked Lyanna out of the door.  It matters not how she came to be at the tower of sorrow.  He should have sent her back to her family even if it meant she will be unhappy for the rest of her life.  That is what a prince of the kingdom should do.  I do not think he would have been a good king.  He was too irresponsible.  Viserys would have been better.  Most anyone with a drop of conscience and responsibility could do better as the king.  Viserys took care of his little sister and raised her while living in the mean streets of the Free Cities.  No matter what you think of Viserys, that was quite an accomplishment.  Rhaegar has not done anything even close to that kind of achievement.  Sure, he can unseat people from their horses and sing sad songs.  That does not sound useful to me. 

D.  Stay home and be a good husband to Elia.

Rhaegar was a donkey.  He could not have been smart.  Little sister ended up with the brains.  It is easy to see why she is Azor Ahai and not Rhaegar. 

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31 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Those two options are possible, but Rhaegar also impregnated Elia again just 6 months after Rhaenys was born, which you can't say is not a dick move. Whatever he was, he was not a good husband.

What?
Well, I can say that that statement speaks to the quality of any other analysis that you offer.

31 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Note everyone still thinks it's an insult.

First, thats written to please King Robert.
Second, it doesn't say everyone thought it was an insult. It says that people who were keen to weaken Rhaegar interpret it as an insult to his wife - for their own political purposes, not because it was. 
It also points out that if it was an insult to his wife, then it was therefore an honour to Lyanna. Yet those connected to her don't treat it as an insult to Lyanna. Once again, Yandel's treatment of this is about politics, not personal statements about either Lyanna or Elia.

31 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Dubious source? It's from the official artist of the World of Ice and Fire.

Yes. Its not cannon, nor an SSM. I'm prepared to take it seriously, but not as much as anything officially from GRRM.

31 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Yes she knew it was coming - because this was just before Rhaegar stopped by where Lyannna was sitting and was about to crown the Queen of Love and Beauty. Which is why Jon Con looked jealous. 

And even if she knew (which there is no evidence of btw) she wasn't happy about it.

Agreed.

31 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Elia was said to be kind and gentle, and there was no "rift" between her and Rhaegar after he nearly killed her with her second pregnancy, so that says nothing.

Thats another ridiculous thought.

19 minutes ago, U. B. Cool said:

D.  Stay home and be a good husband to Elia.

Rhaegar was a donkey.  He could not have been smart.  Little sister ended up with the brains.  It is easy to see why she is Azor Ahai and not Rhaegar. 

Once again, we see someone put their opinions in direct opposition to the books, just because they have judgements about some events we know very little about.

Quote

As you wish," said Whitebeard. "As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

 

 

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

The reason I gave that one a pass is because there's a difference between Elia being publicly humiliated and her feeling humiliated. Naming someone other than his wife the QoLaB and having an indiscreet affair is seen as a slight to the wife by the public, whether or not she is personally upset by it.

And yet, all the reactions are political, not personal. 
The QoLaB can be used as a personal romantic gesture. Jorah did so for example. But it is not always awarded for such reasons. The KG, for example, often win tournaments and if the naming of the QoLaB was purely romantic then it would be scandalous every time they named any woman. Nor do they always name royalty. Barristan reflects he would have named Ashara Dayne had he won Harrenhal - which would have been an honour to her, not an insult. A reflection of his respect for her, not his desire for her. Similarly, the 5 initial champions at Harrenhal were defending Lord Whent's daughter as QoLaB - they were her brothers and uncle. If they had of won it would be seen as a sign of respect for her, not desire.

The naming of Lyanna as QoLaB is not an insult to Elia. Its a surprise - no one, except perhaps Elia, understand why he's doing it and so they don;t expect it - he's the dutiful prince, everyone expects him to name his wife.  

The "indiscreet affair" remains to be seen. No one has talked of it as an affair, period.

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I should add, to take these isolated incidents to mean he was politically ignorant or malicious or having poor personal skills, as many here do, ignores what we are explicitly told about him - that he was intelligent and beloved. It does not mean everyone who thinks or speaks well of him is wrong. It means actions with Lyanna are uncharacteristic of him.

Or, it means that there are more to those actions than we know and his determination and singlemindedness lead him in directions that seem unexpected when we don;t know the necessary details.

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

And we don't need elaborate theories to explain why because we are already told it was because he was in love.

The problem is, that answer has no veracity and doesn't fit the facts.

Who says it?
Dany and 'the singers'.
Dany has no connection back to Rhaegar to know what he thought or felt about Lyanna - she's probably getting her information from the singers in fact.
The singers have no information about Rhaegar's feelings or claims and don't care about the truth anyway - their only interest is in songs that will be popular.
Its possible he was 'in love'. But we have o reliable indications that he was. 
We do have indications from Lyanna's end that she was in love, and I guess he probably was too - before the end.

But there is no indication or whiff of any contact or affair or indiscretion or anything between them after Harrenhal, and we see a seemingly comfortable family scene in Dany's vision, much later.
It is only after Aegon's birth, after Elia cannot provide the third head and another woman is needed, that things change and we see Lyanna come back into the picture. I wonder about whether the SoIaF reminded him of the PoIaF, which had the Targaryens still owing the Starks a royal marriage, and when Elia couldn't have kids, that brave and honourable Stark girl came to mind...

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I mean, it was a vision and he looked right at Dany as he said it. If those aren't giant blinking signs that it wasn't something he really said to Elia, I don't know what is.

Thats not clear either though. It does seem as though Elia might be aware of the 3HotD thing. I mean, she's been married to him for 2+ years already, borne 2 heads, and he's been chasing this prophecy since he was a boy (it seems I must be a warrior, discussions with Aemon, belief he was teh PtwP changing to belief Aegon is the PtwP). He's single minded and determined. Its a reasonable guess that he's discussed that with her at some stage, the vision merely seems to confirm that she's aware.

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On 5/28/2020 at 3:48 AM, corbon said:

As another relative neutral, we have is Jorah. Thoughtless people tend to dismiss Jorah's talk about Rhaegar as meaningless Targaryen suck-up to Dany, but that quite silly when you look at it. Jorah has no need to bring up Rhaegar at any time - if it was just suckup he could use anyone. Instead he brings Rhaegar into conversations when there is no need of suck-up and no need to bring Rhaegar in.

Such as??

Not Viserys "everyone's punching bag" Targaryen.

Not Aerys, for whom honestly the best flatter is quite literally omit him altogether and is quite weird that our good and neutral Jorah does not bring daddy any single time.

Not Rhaelle, he didn't know her and Dany must've heard something about her by her brother, so that's a very slippery terrain.

Rhaegar is the perfect option, especially after Jorah realized that Dany is Rhaegar's nº1 fangirl. The idea that he would not use him is indeed quite silly. And the way to to do it inadvertently   is by bring him up in random situations. Hell, up until Barristan dismissed it, Jorah was actively encouraging the "warrior without peer" image on Dany.

 

On 5/28/2020 at 3:48 AM, corbon said:

Lets also remember that Rickard, to the best of our knowledge, never mentioned Lyanna when he went to KL. Neither did Brandon even, as best we know. Why not? Her abduction appears to be the catalyst! Yet her safety or her return are not their interest? Did they know things we don't as yet? Had they had communications already, that we are not privy to? Is there a great deal more to unravel before we understand that situation more completely? 

Rickard never mentions  Lyanna, because Jaime introduces as Rickard as him being  already being charged for treason and defending himself.

Quote

“Aerys accused them of treason and summoned their fathers to court to answer the charge, with the sons as hostages. When they came, he had them murdered without trial. Fathers and sons both.” “There were trials. Of a sort. Lord Rickard demanded trial by combat, and the king granted the request. Stark armored himself as for battle, thinking to duel one of the Kingsguard. Me, perhaps. Instead, they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys’s pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen. So all Lord Rickard needed to do to prove himself innocent of treason was … well, not burn.

Overall the same goes for Brandon, he was asking for his sister's captor's head. 

 

 

On 5/28/2020 at 7:39 AM, corbon said:

And yet, all the reactions are political, not personal. 

Brandon's reaction is personal, just as Ned seems personal and just as Robert's.

Robert believed Rhaegar was hitting on his bethrothed in his very face and he did not like that, Brandon was worried about his sister's honor, which is again personal. The only one's whose reactions were politocal were Aerys's and his little court, the rest have no reason to think on politics there.

 

 

The rest, is going in circles and meh.

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3 hours ago, corbon said:

And yet, all the reactions are political, not personal. 
The QoLaB can be used as a personal romantic gesture. Jorah did so for example. But it is not always awarded for such reasons. The KG, for example, often win tournaments and if the naming of the QoLaB was purely romantic then it would be scandalous every time they named any woman. Nor do they always name royalty. Barristan reflects he would have named Ashara Dayne had he won Harrenhal - which would have been an honour to her, not an insult. A reflection of his respect for her, not his desire for her. Similarly, the 5 initial champions at Harrenhal were defending Lord Whent's daughter as QoLaB - they were her brothers and uncle. If they had of won it would be seen as a sign of respect for her, not desire.

The naming of Lyanna as QoLaB is not an insult to Elia. Its a surprise - no one, except perhaps Elia, understand why he's doing it and so they don;t expect it - he's the dutiful prince, everyone expects him to name his wife. 

The title is Queen of LOVE and BEAUTY, not Queen of Really Respectable Traits. It's like asking a married man who the most beautiful woman in the room is. Naturally, him naming anyone other than his partner or a family member would be frowned upon, regardless of Elia's feelings about it. Naming someone else's (soon to be) partner would be downright scandalous. A bachelor bestowing the title to an unattached lady is obviously not the same at all.

6 hours ago, corbon said:

The "indiscreet affair" remains to be seen. No one has talked of it as an affair, period.

It was an affair and people found out about it... I don't see this as debatable. If your quibble is that they likely never intended to act on their feelings, or for it to be public, that's not the point. Again, it's about what wider society perceives, not the intentions or feelings of the characters involved.

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Or, it means that there are more to those actions than we know and his determination and singlemindedness lead him in directions that seem unexpected when we don;t know the necessary details.

6 hours ago, corbon said:

The problem is, that answer has no veracity and doesn't fit the facts.

[snip'd for space]

But there is no indication or whiff of any contact or affair or indiscretion or anything between them after Harrenhal, and we see a seemingly comfortable family scene in Dany's vision, much later.
It is only after Aegon's birth, after Elia cannot provide the third head and another woman is needed, that things change and we see Lyanna come back into the picture. I wonder about whether the SoIaF reminded him of the PoIaF, which had the Targaryens still owing the Starks a royal marriage, and when Elia couldn't have kids, that brave and honourable Stark girl came to mind...

See, this is what I was complaining about. You've taken one decontextualised aspect of the character and based your whole theory around it. The problem with this approach approach is you're likely to contradict existing data, something you chide others for. For example, in assuming Lyanna just dutifully goes along with some plan to fulfill a prophecy, you ignore her rebellious nature. In assuming R, L and E all working together, you have to ignore that it makes no sense R never told Maester Aemon about any of it. You have to make a whole host of assumptions just to justify why Lyanna was involved if another child was all that was required.

Anyway, GRRM himself has called Rhaegar lovestruck. Characters speak of R+ L as lovers, and even the rape and kidnapping story speaks to Rhaegar's desire for Lyanna in some form. All of Rhaegar's actions involving Lyanna are consistent with this. And most importantly, it aligns with how human beings act.

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Thats not clear either though. It does seem as though Elia might be aware of the 3HotD thing. I mean, she's been married to him for 2+ years already, borne 2 heads, and he's been chasing this prophecy since he was a boy (it seems I must be a warrior, discussions with Aemon, belief he was teh PtwP changing to belief Aegon is the PtwP). He's single minded and determined. Its a reasonable guess that he's discussed that with her at some stage, the vision merely seems to confirm that she's aware.

"He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door [...] whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say"

Why this weirdness, if not to signal what we're seeing is not literal? The scene is actually pretty nonsensical if we assume everything Dany saw did happen. Elia asks Rhaegar to make a song for their newborn and Rhaegar replies "he has a song [...] his is the song of ice and fire", which is an odd thing to say. But if you take out the portion where Rhaegar was looking straight at Dany, it becomes "Will you make a song for him?" -> Rhaegar plays a tune, which makes much more sense.

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Going with the nonsense that 'Rhaegar was always dutiful' is completely ignoring context and structure of ASoIaF as such. George likes to construct certain appearances of characters only to deconstruct them and turn them on their heads.

We got Tywin the icy and unsmiling glacier and now know that this was nonsense. And there are other such examples - first the Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn and then this turned out to be a lie, Sandor Clegane was a complete thug when first introduced but gradually we learn that there is another side to him, as is to Jaime Lannister, the Tysha story we first heard, etc.

With Rhaegar it is quite clear already that the entire Lyanna story cannot have anything to do with him being dutiful or reserved.

His story most likely is going to turn out to be the story of a man who tried very hard to fulfill the expectations of his father, his mother, his late grandfather, his great-great-uncle, the few friends he had, the wife he had to marry, his father's Hand, etc. ... until he met that magical Northern girl and fell for her body and soul.

That is how love stories do work. Especially with George's stories. They are irrational. There is not going to be a difference with Rhaegar and Lyanna and, say, Robb and Jeyne. Marrying her was stupid, too, and got Robb killed and destroyed what remained of his family and house and meant the end of his kingdom. He didn't care.

Rhaegar was also obsessed with prophecy, but nothing indicates that prophecy demanded he marry a particular woman, ever. Elia was nothing special and yet she was, in Rhaegar's mind, the mother of the promised prince.

Perhaps Elia no longer being able to carry children is the final straw that Rhaegar took Lyanna ... but it would have nothing to do with Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna or his desire to be with her. It might be the last drop, so to speak, the sign from the gods that Rhaegar was destined to be with this woman he truly loved because his wife could no longer give him children and was thus no longer truly a wife to him.

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

For example, in assuming Lyanna just dutifully goes along with some plan to fulfill a prophecy, you ignore her rebellious nature. In assuming R, L and E all working together, you have to ignore that it makes no sense R never told Maester Aemon about any of it. You have to make a whole host of assumptions just to justify why Lyanna was involved if another child was all that was required.

This is what has been vexing me about most of those Rhaegar discussions for years. People reduce Lyanna Stark to some sort of puppet or extra in their fantasy of Rhaegar fulfilling some prophecy. This includes Elia as well, but with Lyanna - who was a dialed-up version of Arya Stark with none of Arya's insecurities because Lya was the true princess of the North, with no beautiful Sansa to contend with - it really makes no sense she was just Rhaegar's sidekick or the pliable little girl who absorbed the dragon's powerful semen to fulfill a prophecy.

Unless we go with the brutal rape plot - which still is possible to a point because we simply don't yet know whether Lya was willing to go with Rhaegar at the beginning or at all - Lyanna Stark had a say in all this. And the really interesting question is what the hell she thought about the Rebellion, about Rhaegar standing with his mad dad, about Rhaegar and Robert clashing at the Trident, about Rhaegar possibly killing her other brother(s) after his father already murdered her father and older brother.

I cannot but wonder whether Lya was in that tower to prevent her from betraying Rhaegar and House Targaryen. Because I don't see a woman with Arya's character ever getting so love sick that she would allow her lover/husband to save Mad Aerys from his deserved fate or stand idly by while her lover/husband fights and possibly kills her (former) betrothed and brother.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Unless we go with the brutal rape plot - which still is possible to a point because we simply don't yet know whether Lya was willing to go with Rhaegar at the beginning or at all - Lyanna Stark had a say in all this. And the really interesting question is what the hell she thought about the Rebellion, about Rhaegar standing with his mad dad, about Rhaegar and Robert clashing at the Trident, about Rhaegar possibly killing her other brother(s) after his father already murdered her father and older brother.

This doesn't make sense to me either.  I just can't cast Rhaegar as a rapist or we would probably get Ned's thoughts about it.  The Third possibility is that he was neither her rapist nor her lover.  He may have been her protector or she may have been his hostage if we really want to look at all the possibilities. 

As far as Harrenhall is concerned; I don't see placing the crown of roses on Lya's lap from the end of a lance very romantic or appropriate (penis metaphors aside).   Everyone calls the crowned lady the queen of love and beauty.  Except for Ned, he calls it the queen of beauty's laurel.  So love is completely excluded in his mind.

As for why Rhaegar did that, I don't have a clue.  There are boundless arguments, which I won't restate.  It may only be that Lyanna was the most worthy to receive it given her defense of Howland Reed, whatever you may think about the KotLT. 

What I wonder about are all those visits alone to Summerhall.  I think he was trading songs for dreams with the GoHH to learn more about the prophecy.  He may have learned something that caused him to look twice at Lyanna and this may have something to do with her disappearance.

Just spitballing.

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18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Same here. And it’s pretty clear Brandon was a reckless, hot-headed bloke. I might add that he reacted like an eejit. But I do so very much want to know who told him what and when. Some speculate it was LF but I don’t buy it. 

I think it could have been Lysa.

She was in love with Baelish and he was sent away because he challenged Brandon to a duel for Catelyn's hand.  Lysa was already jealous of Catelyn and probably took great pleasure in lying to Brandon to send him off in a rage.  Lysa might not have imagined it would be an action that led to the start of a war but probably thought he would simply get punished or something, perhaps even as petty as thinking it would simply delay the wedding so Catelyn would have to wait for Brandon (who Catelyn was in love with).

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18 hours ago, corbon said:

What did Rhaegar do? Do you know? Do youhave some secret insight into GRRM's brain?

We are told several times over that Rhaegar went off with Lyanna, which started a chain of events resulting in abject disaster. There's dispute over the nature of things and the exact details, but even Barristan, someone who remembers Rhaegar fondly and as a KG would presumably be privy to more relevant information than almost anyone else in Westeros, believes that thousands died because "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna." You can speculate all you want, but all indications we have are that deliberately or not, Rhaegar's actions led to the Rebellion, one way or another. That doesn't mean he's solely responsible for it, but it's a much worse stain than anything Ned did.

18 hours ago, corbon said:

GRRM makes him out to be a shining prince. But still a failure. 
Its a tragedy, not a farce.

I disagree that George makes him out to be a shining prince. He certainly crafts that appearance for Rhaegar, and a perception by some, but I don't think he means for it be accepted uncritically. Rhaegar's a great character precisely because he is neither the monster he's made out to be by Robert and some of his other enemies, nor is he the shining heroic prince that his fanboys make him out to be. Making him one or the other devalues his character and the story IMO.

18 hours ago, corbon said:

Lets also remember that Rickard, to the best of our knowledge, never mentioned Lyanna when he went to KL. Neither did Brandon even, as best we know. Why not? Her abduction appears to be the catalyst! Yet her safety or her return are not their interest? Did they know things we don't as yet?

We are told that Brandon rode to KL to confront Rhaegar specifically because he heard that Lyanna was abducted. Do you think he actually was coincidentally riding to KL demanding Rhaegar's head for some other reason? The descriptions we get of what happened while Brandon was in captivity or when Rickard showed up are very vague and focused on the trial/execution. We don't know that Lyanna wasn't mentioned and I don't think it's a safe assumption to make with the few details we have. In any case, it wouldn't be that surprising to me if Lyanna took a back seat given that Rickard's #1 priority was presumably saving his the life of his eldest son (and heir), who was arrested and charged with a capital crime by an insane king. Making demands about Lyanna while Brandon's safety (not to mention his own) was at risk could be pretty dangerous when he's dealing with Aerys Targaryen.

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