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U.S. Politics: Only Death Can Pay For Growth


Jace, Extat

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And just to be clear, I've said since the beginning that Sanders had a very narrow path to victory that consisted entirely of him being able to either rack up a sizable plurality of delegates in order to win a contested convention, or by accumulating a string of victories so he begins to project the image of inevitability.

Given that this path to victory was actually working for a time because the moderate vote was split between more candidates, and that there wasn't a ton of overlap between Sanders and Warren backers, I can't understand why it's so controversial to argue that Sanders would have had a better chance, and Biden a worse chance, if the vote was still split among more candidates on Super Tuesday.

It was all only an inside straight, but it was a chance at winning. And it honestly baffles me when people say that the heaviest hitter in the Democratic party didn't makes his views on the subject quietly clear after South Carolina, when there is actual reporting stating the opposite.

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1 hour ago, alguien said:

I'm OK with Biden's positions on the issues at the moment.

I'm OK that he brought AOC onto his Green initiative, that Sanders has endorsed him. I mean, I voted for Sanders in WA after Warren dropped out. Now that Biden is the guy, I'd be voting for him even if this election wasn't about ejecting an orange facist from the White House. 

Cool. I don't like him and I also like Sanders, AOC, and Warren.

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23 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

I think it is in no small part because any time any of us who supported Bernie bring up an issue with Biden some folk always act like we're being disingenuous because we're mad Bernie lost, there by opening up old wounds which kick everything off again.

This was my initial response to The Great Unwashed thoughts on the subject:

4 hours ago, DMC said:

I don't think that will be the case.  Bernie's consistent strength with young voters - in spite of his myriad deficiencies - should be more of a lesson than Biden winning.  The latter's victory is plainly a particularized result based on the Dem electorate's fear of finding the most "electable" candidate after the 2016 whiplash.  Simply put, Biden won because of recency bias.  The left should indeed absolutely hold the leaders' feet to the fire as that's their role, but that doesn't change how people should approach elections, broadly. 

With a presidential nominee, not sure variance of ideology within the party matters much anymore, if it ever really did.  But, when it comes to acquiring or holding majorities in either chamber?  Yeah, like Kal said, you to find and recruit the best person for that constituency.  That's how you win.  Ridiculously safe Dem seats can go to the Squad, sure.  But we still need our Connor Lambs too.

If that means I'm treating Bernie supporters unfairly, well, yeah, I'm sorry I don't get it.

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1 hour ago, The Great Unwashed said:

For fucks sake, I fucking give up.

I mean, in one fucking breath you admit that what I was saying actually happened; that the moderates dropped out and endorsed Biden specifically to stop Sanders from winning the nomination, yet in the same fucking breath say that if that had not have happened, things would have played out exactly the same way anyway. And I'm the fucking illogical one somehow.

I applaud your staying power.

When it comes to gerrymandering, can't help but think it'd be more worthwhile to capture state legislatures in rder to prevent voter suppression, than to redistrict.  Florida and Georgia come to mind, Ohio, I'm sure Maithanet or DMC or Fez probabaly have a good handle on which states could likely get more disenfranchised voters their votes back.

On top of that, the coronavirus also pretty much hamstrung any competition left in the Dem primary.  Making elections easy to participate in should be a huge push for anyone Dem or likely to vote Dem.  Or fuck, vote at all.

 

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32 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

I think it is in no small part because any time any of us who supported Bernie bring up an issue with Biden some folk always act like we're being disingenuous because we're mad Bernie lost, there by opening up old wounds which kick everything off again.

Minnesota Prosecutor says that why George Floyd's death was terrible, there evidence that does not support a criminal charge. I wonder if this guy owns a bunch of buildings and is trying to run a scam on fire insurance companies.

Agreed. I haven't brought up Bernie forever. I don't know how many ways I can say it. He lost. He's done. We won't see him again, and that's okay. I'm excited for the young progressives coming up. But yeah, if you mention you have a problem with Biden, then you're a Bernie Bro. Which I guess is the same thing as a Bernie-"stan." 

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2 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

"Moderates" play brinkmanship all the fucking time, by literally saying that they're going to vote for the other fucking candidate. Progressives should just vote for the Democrats, even if those Democrats have made clear that they have no fucking desire to have a substantive discussion of the issues, and that you better vote for us because we will just blame you if we lose? No fucking thanks.

Progressives should vote Biden. Moderates should vote Biden. In a just world Republicans would vote Biden.

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2 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

I applaud your staying power.

When it comes to gerrymandering, can't help but think it'd be more worthwhile to capture state legislatures in rder to prevent voter suppression, than to redistrict.  Florida and Georgia come to mind, Ohio, I'm sure Maithanet or DMC or Fez probabaly have a good handle on which states could likely get more disenfranchised voters their votes back.

On top of that, the coronavirus also pretty much hamstrung any competition left in the Dem primary.  Making elections easy to participate in should be a huge push for anyone Dem or likely to vote Dem.  Or fuck, vote at all.

 

Yes, I am absolutely in favor of expanding the franchise, but I'm also not above resorting to dirty tricks when possible.

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1 minute ago, Freshwater Spartan said:

Progressives should vote Biden. Moderates should vote Biden. In a just world Republicans would vote Biden.

I mean yeah, that's essentially what I was trying to say in the post that kicked this whole thing off: that progressives should campaign hard for Biden, so that we don't get locked out of negotiations over the platform. And then when the election is over, let the knife fights begin, and if progressives get shut out because they got outmaneuvered, then that's one thing, but that they shouldn't even try to push the party and consolidate power is bonkers.

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Just now, The Great Unwashed said:

I mean yeah, that's essentially what I was trying to say in the post that kicked this whole thing off: that progressives should campaign hard for Biden, so that we don't get locked out of negotiations over the platform. And then when the election is over, let the knife fights begin, and if progressives get shut out because they got outmaneuvered, then that's one thing, but that they shouldn't even try to push the party and consolidate power is bonkers.

Maybe you should reach out to other Sanders supporters and ask them to vote in down ballot races at least or even vote for Biden.  I bet if you actually got off your fucking ass you could make some texts or calls to the estranged Sanders' contingent of deplorables.

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1 minute ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I mean yeah, that's essentially what I was trying to say in the post that kicked this whole thing off: that progressives should campaign hard for Biden, so that we don't get locked out of negotiations over the platform. And then when the election is over, let the knife fights begin, and if progressives get shut out because they got outmaneuvered, then that's one thing, but that they shouldn't even try to push the party and consolidate power is bonkers.

Ah, sorry. I think that progressives absolutely should try and push the party as much as they can - again, probably the most useful way to do so is be part of new executive-level organization establishments, not through legislation. But don't play crazy hardball if they're in power. It is far better to get smaller wins and show successes and show actual benefit than it is to block until you get your way. That is one big lesson the ACA has shown - that it might be hard to get benefits in, but once you do people like them. The goal should be to get wins that people like first, even if that means agreeing to things that you don't like quite as much. 

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1 minute ago, larrytheimp said:

Maybe you should reach out to other Sanders supporters and ask them to vote in down ballot races at least or even vote for Biden.  I bet if you actually got off your fucking ass you could make some texts or calls to the estranged Sanders' contingent of deplorables.

Wtf? I've literally posted about doing precisely that, and that I was going to specifically campaign on Biden's behalf.

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4 minutes ago, DMC said:

This was my initial response to The Great Unwashed thoughts on the subject:

If that means I'm treating Bernie supporters unfairly, well, yeah, I'm sorry I don't get it.

At this point, without pointing any fingers, I don't find you to be one of the perpetrators of what I'm talking about.

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2 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Wtf? I've literally posted about doing precisely that, and that I was going to specifically campaign on Biden's behalf.

Pretty sure he was being facetious, and going with the idea that you stating things gets turned into an argument about the exact thing you said to do, except being told that way in an antagonistic way. 

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2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Ah, sorry. I think that progressives absolutely should try and push the party as much as they can - again, probably the most useful way to do so is be part of new executive-level organization establishments, not through legislation. But don't play crazy hardball if they're in power. It is far better to get smaller wins and show successes and show actual benefit than it is to block until you get your way. That is one big lesson the ACA has shown - that it might be hard to get benefits in, but once you do people like them. The goal should be to get wins that people like first, even if that means agreeing to things that you don't like quite as much. 

Yes, I mean that's literally what I was arguing, which is why the pushback was so unexpected. I'm not saying...entirely...that progressives should only play hardball, but that they shouldn't be afraid to play hardball, and then just gave an example of the moderate wing of the party playing hardball against progressives. I literally was not making a value judgment on whether they were wrong or right to do so.

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6 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

But yeah, if you mention you have a problem with Biden, then you're a Bernie Bro. Which I guess is the same thing as a Bernie-"stan." 

Simon, this is bad faith. I am pretty sure the whole "accusing someone of being a die-hard supporter for flimsy reasoning" started with you accusing BFC of being Biden's buddy because he said you'd still complain about Biden even if he could orate like MLK (quoted below). Then you drifted into that nonsensical argument about how Biden is too vile a person to be even in the same comparison as MLK, even if the comparison was literally that Biden is nowhere near on MLK's level.

I'm trying to be more restrained in these dumb arguments but you started this shit today. And it's your pattern to question the good faith of people who have even a tangential disagreement with you. I called you out about it when you called Week a Biden fan despite his obvious antipathy for him. You're still doing it. Honestly, get the fuck off this shit already. I don't even remember what a sane Simon post looks like any more.

7 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

But he doesn't orate like MLK and to compare him to a black civil rights leader seems pretty low, even for you.

I will give you and your buddy Biden this, he did read from a teleprompter more effectively than when he tries to say things off the top of his head. I'm sorry I rained on your little Biden parade. The man flat out sucks.

 

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2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Pretty sure he was being facetious, and going with the idea that you stating things gets turned into an argument about the exact thing you said to do, except being told that way in an antagonistic way. 

Oh, okay. Yeah I think my capacity for detecting subtlety is nonexistent for the moment.

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5 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Simon, this is bad faith. I am pretty sure the whole "accusing someone of being a die-hard supporter for flimsy reasoning" started with you accusing BFC of being Biden's buddy because he said you'd still complain about Biden even if he could orate like MLK (quoted below). Then you drifted into that nonsensical argument about how Biden is too vile a person to be even in the same comparison as MLK, even if the comparison was literally that Biden is nowhere near on MLK's level.

I'm trying to be more restrained in these dumb arguments but you started this shit today. And it's your pattern to question the good faith of people who have even a tangential disagreement with you. I called you out about it when you called Week a Biden fan despite his obvious antipathy for him. You're still doing it. Honestly, get the fuck off this shit already. I don't even remember what a sane Simon post looks like any more.

 

I explained why I thought comparing Biden to MLK was rough, and someone else explained why they saw it the other way, and I agreed with them I hadn't considered it that way. I did call BFC Biden's buddy because, like I mentioned elsewhere, I could only assume someone I don't know and have never talked to wouldn't talk to me that way unless they really loved Biden. 

But in the BFC post, it wasn't kind, and all I'd done was say I didn't care for Biden's response. It felt like empty platitudes. And why is it up to you to determine my sanity. I'll agree, I'm in the middle of this shit today, as always, but I'm not seeking it out. I just seem to piss people off. What can I do about it? Submit to their viewpoints? And you should be fair too--I've apologized to you and Week for being a dick, but we can't seem to quit bringing those things up. 

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