Samwell Tarly should remain craven

[LynnS]

A Game of Thrones - Bran I

"What do you think?" his father asked.

Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him. "Do you understand why I did it?"

[Bernie Mac]

18 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

"Bran thought about it. “Can a man still be brave if he’s afraid?” “That is the only time a man can be brave,” his father told him."

 

 

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

A Game of Thrones - Bran I

"What do you think?" his father asked.

Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him. "Do you understand why I did it?"

 

 

? What do the two of you think this quote means? Either the two of you (and the many others who use this quote) don't actually know what coward means, don't understand what Ned is saying or don't actually know why Sam is labelled a coward by himself and others.

Sam is not a coward because he was scared. He's a coward because he was timid who gave up without even bothering to try most of the time.

Most young nobles being trained are scared of being hit by the wooden swords. But they persevere despite their fears. They don't simply give up.

The same is true of the recruits of the Night Watch, they don't lie on the floor and allow themselves to be hit to end the training as quickly as possible.

The same is true of the Long March. Sam's Night Watch brothers were also scared. But they did not lie down and wait to die, they carried on marching. Some, like Smal Paul, even carried Sam or encouraged/motivated Sam when he was refusing to try.

Or at Craster's were Mormont and others were being slain and Sam did nothing, was just willing to die without a fight until Gilly and her sisters saved him.

 

Everyone is scared at times, but they still face their fears despite this. Sam is/was a coward because most of the time he refused to try.

[Nagini's Neville]

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

 

 

? What do the two of you think this quote means? Either the two of you (and the many others who use this quote) don't actually know what coward means, don't understand what Ned is saying or don't actually know why Sam is labelled a coward by himself and others.

Sam is not a coward because he was scared. He's a coward because he was timid who gave up without even bothering to try most of the time.

Most young nobles being trained are scared of being hit by the wooden swords. But they persevere despite their fears. They don't simply give up.

The same is true of the recruits of the Night Watch, they don't lie on the floor and allow themselves to be hit to end the training as quickly as possible.

The same is true of the Long March. Sam's Night Watch brothers were also scared. But they did not lie down and wait to die, they carried on marching. Some, like Smal Paul, even carried Sam or encouraged/motivated Sam when he was refusing to try.

Or at Craster's were Mormont and others were being slain and Sam did nothing, was just willing to die without a fight until Gilly and her sisters saved him.

 

Everyone is scared at times, but they still face their fears despite this. Sam is/was a coward because most of the time he refused to try.

I think I have explained extensively in my two posts prior to this quote why I think Sam is the way that he is and not a coward, but quite brave. So feel free to read them, if you are truly interested in my opinion.

[Bernie Mac]

49 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I think I have explained extensively in my two posts prior to this quote why I think Sam is the way that he is and not a coward, but quite brave. So feel free to read them, if you are truly interested in my opinion.

But he was still a coward.

noun

a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated person.

adjective

lacking courage; very fearful or timid.

 

Sam fits the description. I have read and replied to your previous posts on this, did you not see the reply?

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

? What do the two of you think this quote means?

I thought I might have something to add, but I don't.  My sentiments have already been expressed by a number of posters upthread. 

[Bernie Mac]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I thought I might have something to add, but I don't.  My sentiments have already been expressed by a number of posters upthread. 

I was asking what you thought Ned meant by that quote and how it applies to Sam?

From my reading of it, it seemed that you using  that quote was evidence that Sam was not a coward. Am I wrong on that one or just jumping to wild conclusions?

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I was asking what you thought Ned meant by that quote and how it applies to Sam?

"Bravery’ is not the absence of fear, but the acceptance that something else is more important than fear" 

Sam has been handicapped by his upbringing and his internal monologue reinforces that self image.   Sam's fight or flight instinct favors flight because he doesn't have the skill or knowledge or training to overcome a mortal threat.  The focus of his personality is intellectual rather than physical.   Knowing when to run is as important as knowing when to fight.  Recall what Old Nan says about the absence of fear.   A lack of fear leads to one's downfall or injury.  It's a survival mechanism that one must heed.

The more success Sam has conquering his fears, accidental and otherwise, the less insecure he will feel.  But he will always feel fear. That's an instinct that should serve him well.

ETA: What he won't do is remain craven, a perjorative term used by his brother in the NW when they first meet him.  In spite of his fear, he is already Sam the Slayer in their eyes.

[Darth Sidious]

On 6/5/2020 at 12:30 AM, Dorian Martell's son said:

We know how the story ends and there won't be a King Samwell. He will grow as a character, and take risks he hadn't before 

Not really.  Unless you have a direct line to George RR Martin.  Now about Samwell Tarly.  I myself do not think he will be a ruler.  It is out of character and a very bad idea.  But you never know what can happen.  

[Darth Sidious]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

"Bravery’ is not the absence of fear, but the acceptance that something else is more important than fear" 

Switch this in place of "fear" : one's own life. 

Sam has been handicapped by his upbringing and his internal monologue reinforces that self image.   Sam's fight or flight instinct favors flight because he doesn't have the skill or knowledge or training to overcome a mortal threat.  The focus of his personality is intellectual rather than physical.   Knowing when to run is as important as knowing when to fight.  Recall what Old Nan says about the absence of fear.   A lack of fear leads to one's downfall or injury.  It's a survival mechanism that one must heed.

The more success Sam has conquering his fears, accidental and otherwise, the less insecure he will feel.  But he will always feel fear. That's an instinct that should serve him well.

ETA: What he won't do is remain craven, a perjorative term used by his brother in the NW when they first meet him.  In spite of his fear, he is already Sam the Slayer in their eyes.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

58 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Not really.  Unless you have a direct line to George RR Martin.  Now about Samwell Tarly.  I myself do not think he will be a ruler.  It is out of character and a very bad idea.  But you never know what can happen.  

Yes really. We have already been shown the ending. Not the exact ending, but very close to it and Samwell does not become king 

[broken one]

He charged at a demon armed with stone dagger, cmon XD Sam may not be the most realistic or psychologically consistent character, but seems like author decided he's brave.

the idea he will sit on the throne, where does it come from?

 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, broken one said:

He charged at a demon armed with stone dagger, cmon XD Sam may not be the most realistic or psychologically consistent character, but seems like author decided he's brave.

Yup, his face to face interaction with an Other was brave and did change him. From that point he has been more confident and far less craven. So much so that we see Sam making decisions that he would not have made before that, such as his manipulation of the vote for the Night Watch Commander or him beating the shit out of Dareon for not doing his 'duty'.

But for the majority of his life and the first three books he was pretty much a craven. It took him coming face to face with the scariest thing he had ever seen, with the knowledge that there was no one there to save him for him to step up and save himself.

 

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

Sam has been handicapped by his upbringing and his internal monologue reinforces that self image.  

I actually disagree with this. If anything his upbringing has blessed him.

Finally, after three girls in as many years, Lady Tarly gave her lord husband a second son. From that day, Lord Randyll ignored Sam, devoting all his time to the younger boy, a fierce, robust child more to his liking. Samwell had known several years of sweet peace with his music and his books.

Had his father not gave up on him, forced him to train, even at a softer level, he'd not be as well read and educated as he was (same goes for Tyrion).

Many of the advantages he gets at the Wall is due to his education, something that he got from his upbringing. Peasant 'cowards' are not getting the same protection or advantages as Sam is getting at the Wall. They are forced to train and pass the recruitment tests.

It should also be pointed out that Sam's training started the same as any other nobles, it only got more harsh because Sam did not respond the same way to is as the majority of his peers did.

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

Sam's fight or flight instinct favors flight because he doesn't have the skill or knowledge or training to overcome a mortal threat. 

He has the knowledge. He has just refused to harness that knowledge up until fairly recently.

Sam hit him.

He did not think about it. His hand came up, curled into a fist, and crashed into the singer's mouth. Dareon cursed and his naked wife gave a shriek and Sam threw himself onto the singer and knocked him backwards over a low table. They were almost of a height, but Sam weighed twice as much, and for once he was too angry to be afraid. He punched the singer in the face and in the belly, then began to pummel him about the shoulders with both hands. When Dareon grabbed his wrists, Sam butted him with his head and broke his lip. The singer let go and he smashed him in the nose. Somewhere a man was laughing, a woman cursing. The fight seemed to slow, as if they were two black flies struggling in amber. Then someone dragged Sam off the singer's chest. He hit that person too, and something hard crashed into his head.

 

Sam was always capable of defending, even attacking people, if he wanted to.

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

The focus of his personality is intellectual rather than physical.   Knowing when to run is as important as knowing when to fight.

eh? Sam's response to the long march was not to run, it was not even to walk, it was to lie down and give up. Small Paul had to carry him to safety.

The same was true at Craster's. Sam once again gave up, chose to wait to die until the women of Craster's Keep saved him and snapped him out of his craven attitude.

When he chose to lie down during training, that was not a fight or flight response, it was giving up without even trying.

 

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

  Recall what Old Nan says about the absence of fear.   A lack of fear leads to one's downfall or injury.  It's a survival mechanism that one must heed.

eh? Everyone with the exception to extreme examples like Gregor have fear.

No one is claiming that simply having fear makes a person a coward, it is the refusal to try. To simply give up. That is why Sam was a coward for the first few books and the majority of his life.

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

The more success Sam has conquering his fears, accidental and otherwise, the less insecure he will feel.  But he will always feel fear. That's an instinct that should serve him well.

Yeah, I'm still confused on your understanding of the word coward/craven.

Do you think Ned does not think cowards/cravens exist? Because he does.

And yet, the thought of leaving angered him as well. So much was still undone. Robert and his council of cravens and flatterers would beggar the realm if left unchecked …

They exist. To Ned they are those that will take the easier option, that don't stand up for themselves. Ned, if introduced to Sam before his face to face encounter with an Other, would think of Sam as a coward (much like Jon does). He'd feel sympathy for him, but he'd still think of him as a craven who needed to be less of  a coward.

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

ETA: What he won't do is remain craven, a perjorative term used by his brother in the NW when they first meet him.  In spite of his fear, he is already Sam the Slayer in their eyes.

Sure. As I pointed out in my first post, Sam has changed. But the idea that he was never a craven is clearly wrong and the Ned quote often used in these discussion makes zero sense applied to Sam.

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

I think quitting or walking away from taunting bullies is totally admirable. And if anyone who saw the recent film about WWI, 1917, running away from the action was actually logical and quite moving. Who can blame those guys? I'd never call them cowards.

[BlackLightning]

I think the whole point of Sam's story is to highlight different types of courage.

Bran is established to have been be the kind of boy GRRM both wishes he was as a boy and had for a son. But Sam is basically GRRM's self-insert, his love letter to himself.

I think the end-goal of the character arcs of Bran, Sam and Sansa is to show that there are different kinds of courage and different kinds of heroes and all have a place in science fiction and fantasy.

[Kierria]

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I think the whole point of Sam's story is to highlight different types of courage.

Bran is established to have been be the kind of boy GRRM both wishes he was as a boy and had for a son. But Sam is basically GRRM's self-insert, his love letter to himself.

I think the end-goal of the character arcs of Bran, Sam and Sansa is to show that there are different kinds of courage and different kinds of heroes and all have a place in science fiction and fantasy.

'A love letter to himself.'  BlackLightning that was a great way to put it. 

I wouldn't mind if Samwell were to survive at the end.  He and Gilly can both live and start a family.  I would not mind that at all.  That's a nice love letter from the author to the author. 

[LynnS]

On 6/6/2020 at 10:33 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. As I pointed out in my first post, Sam has changed. But the idea that he was never a craven is clearly wrong and the Ned quote often used in these discussion makes zero sense applied to Sam.

Sorry, I'm not interested in the subject. 

[Bernie Mac]

14 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think quitting or walking away from taunting bullies is totally admirable.

He did neither, he sat down and let them hit him until they gave up.

Which chapter are you referring to with regard to Sam walking away from taunting bullies?

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He did neither, he sat down and let them hit him until they gave up.

Which chapter are you referring to with regard to Sam walking away from taunting bullies?

You missed the point. He's not promising vengeance or eye for an eye. He's not turning into a Chett. Its non violent resistance and makes the bullies look even worse. He is also verbally taunted and doesnt retaliate. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

You missed the point. He's not promising vengeance or eye for an eye. He's not turning into a Chett. Its non violent resistance and makes the bullies look even worse.

What bullies.

• Him refusing to train for his Maester at Arms is not some win against bullying. They were all fired for failing at their job.
• Him refusing to train properly with the other trainees is not some win against bullying. It weakens everyones survival if one recruit refuses to try
• Him sitting on his ass on the march in the North is not some win against bullying. Small Paul has to carry him and subsequently dies for his efforts
• Him refusing to help Mormont and the other 'good' Watchmen as they were being slaughtered at Craster's Keep is not some win against bullying.

Sam's a (self confessed) coward for most of his life because he refuses to try. It has nothing to do with him being a bad fighter, fat or his enjoyment of books. It is down to a refusal to stick up for himself, which is not ideal for someone who is responsible for thousands of people and the lands they inhabit.

Quote

 

He is also verbally taunted and doesnt retaliate. 

So you think Sam has become a worse person over the series?

Because the later parts of ASOS and AFFC is when most people think he has character growth, when he is willing to stand up for himself. He manipulates the other watchmen leaders to get what Sam wants. The Sam of the earlier books would have been too timid, too much a coward to do that. When he beats the shit out Daeron for refusing to do his duty that is Sam retaliating to someone he thinks has failed him.

For most people Sam's character has got better, but from the sounds of it you seem to think him finallt standing up for himself is a negative aspect of the character.

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

What bullies.

• Him refusing to train for his Maester at Arms is not some win against bullying. They were all fired for failing at their job.
• Him refusing to train properly with the other trainees is not some win against bullying. It weakens everyones survival if one recruit refuses to try
• Him sitting on his ass on the march in the North is not some win against bullying. Small Paul has to carry him and subsequently dies for his efforts
• Him refusing to help Mormont and the other 'good' Watchmen as they were being slaughtered at Craster's Keep is not some win against bullying.

Sam's a (self confessed) coward for most of his life because he refuses to try. It has nothing to do with him being a bad fighter, fat or his enjoyment of books. It is down to a refusal to stick up for himself, which is not ideal for someone who is responsible for thousands of people and the lands they inhabit.

So you think Sam has become a worse person over the series?

Because AFFC is when most people think he has character growth, when he is willing to stand up for himself. He manipulates the other watchmen leaders to get what Sam wants. The Sam of the earlier books would have been too timid, too much a coward to do that. When he beats the shit out Daeron for refusing to do his duty that is Sam retaliating to someone he thinks has failed him.

For most people Sam's character has got better, but from the sounds of it you seem to think him finallt standing up for himself is a negative aspect of the character.

 

Go away. No one wants to interact with you. You treat everyone on this forum like they're on trial and you're cross examining them.