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Mouse Of No House

What little piece of canon do you wish you could tweak/change?

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On 5/29/2020 at 12:17 PM, Mouse Of No House said:

Is there something small you would like to change that would have a larger impact? A fantasy you would like fulfilled, or a 'what if' scenario you would've like to see? Or maybe a tweak that would make an event within the books more personally satisfying?

 

Jorah having been the man who dishonoured Ashara Dayne and this being why Barristan does not like him/wants him away from Dany because he thinks he disgraced Ashara Dayne and drove her to death. 

Plus if Dany is actually Ashara’s child that would be...well...

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8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I also hate that and find it implausible, but it seemed to me that's what GRRM was really going for there. How did he undercut it?

About his motive to impress Robert, Robert would never know anyhow. Then we hear that he and Joff were never close, he cried as a baby when Robert held him, being beaten, and then there's this in the first Sansa chapter of ACOK:

ACOK Sansa I

"We share that view, sweet child." Tyrion turned to Sansa. "My lady, I am sorry for your losses. Truly, the gods are cruel."

Sansa could not think of a word to say to him. How could he be sorry for her losses? Was he mocking her? It wasn't the gods who'd been cruel, it was Joffrey.

"I am sorry for your loss as well, Joffrey," the dwarf said.

"What loss?"

"Your royal father? A large fierce man with a black beard; you'll recall him if you try. He was king before you."

"Oh, him. Yes, it was very sad, a boar killed him."

Bran's attempted murder and Jon Arryn's murder are often discussed in tandem, and while we got a clean and believable full explanation for Jon Arryn, we got nonsensical murk about Bran. He has Tyrion and Jaime chew on who tried to kill Bran and they often reach wrong conclusion and it all just never adds up.

The attempted murder of Bran required some stealth and intelligence, especially in Winterfell with which Joff was unfamiliar and we're told over and over and over that Joff had massive impulse control issues and wasn't very smart at all.

So, it was as just as GRRM said, but Joff had help and it's too spoilery to reveal yet. He was vocal about his hostility towards Bran so someone overhearing and offering to help is built into the story.

 

 

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More relatives for the noble houses. I'm really getting tired of the families who have been in power for so long but who only seem to have a single branch of their family tree left alive (Caron, Cerwyn, Baratheon, Stark, Bolton, etc). I'm not even saying they have to do anything in the story, but surely there's a few of each family that are distant relatives and living quietly, maybe wondering if they'll ever be next in line for a big war?

14 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

More houses worshipping the old gods. I mean hell, we need more than just House Blackwood representing! Even just ten other houses would be helpful. In fact, I'll pick the ten right now: Royce, Crakehall, Swann, Rowan, Piper, Dayne, Tarly, Oakheart, Tollett, Banefort.

Did you pick those houses at random?

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

More houses worshipping the old gods. I mean hell, we need more than just House Blackwood representing! Even just ten other houses would be helpful. In fact, I'll pick the ten right now: Royce, Crakehall, Swann, Rowan, Piper, Dayne, Tarly, Oakheart, Tollett, Banefort.

House Wylde of the Rainwood and House Royce and House Dayne are the three houses I think should’ve been worshipping the old gods. Maybe not Royce though as the Vale has the largest Sandal influence.

Edited by Brandon Ice-Eyes V1

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Posted (edited)

I could probably think of more things, but the first that come to mind: less dead mothers. less dying in childbirth. less child brides. less underage girls being sexualized. i guess that's not really "one tiny thing you could change" but more an overall pattern.

oh and i always wondered why tyrion and brienne, two characters who are already considered 'ugly' by westerosi society in general, need to be further disfigured in the course of the story. with someone like jaime it's interesting to have him maimed because he has been considered handsome thus far. but why make the already "ugly" ones even "uglier"

Edited by punzerknacker
addition

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12 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

More relatives for the noble houses. I'm really getting tired of the families who have been in power for so long but who only seem to have a single branch of their family tree left alive (Caron, Cerwyn, Baratheon, Stark, Bolton, etc). I'm not even saying they have to do anything in the story, but surely there's a few of each family that are distant relatives and living quietly, maybe wondering if they'll ever be next in line for a big war?

Did you pick those houses at random?

No, I thought of which houses would be best suited to worship the old gods, as well as scattering them out across the regions of Westeros. Given that Rowan and Oakheart both have trees in their house's name, that was an easy choice. Plus I like the idea of several marcher lords being old gods' worshippers, especially since it can be a nod to their animosity with tree-less Dorne. Speaking of Dorne, House Dayne is definitely another one with very old ties to Westeros, they should be worshipping the old gods too. 

 

6 minutes ago, Brandon Ice-Eyes V1 said:

House Wylde of the Rainwood and House Royce and House Dayne are the three houses I think should’ve been worshipping the old gods. Maybe not Royce though as the Vale has the largest sandal influence.

That's true, I forgot that Gulltown contains the shoe-making industry of Westeros. I heard a great theory that the Dornish only agreed to join the Seven Kingdoms because of the tariffs on sandals they were importing from the Vale.

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3 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

No, I thought of which houses would be best suited to worship the old gods, as well as scattering them out across the regions of Westeros. Given that Rowan and Oakheart both have trees in their house's name, that was an easy choice. Plus I like the idea of several marcher lords being old gods' worshippers, especially since it can be a nod to their animosity with tree-less Dorne. Speaking of Dorne, House Dayne is definitely another one with very old ties to Westeros, they should be worshipping the old gods too. 

 

That's true, I forgot that Gulltown contains the shoe-making industry of Westeros. I heard a great theory that the Dornish only agreed to join the Seven Kingdoms because of the tariffs on sandals they were importing from the Vale.

One of the less known details of ASOIAF :bang:

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4 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

That's true, I forgot that Gulltown contains the shoe-making industry of Westeros. I heard a great theory that the Dornish only agreed to join the Seven Kingdoms because of the tariffs on sandals they were importing from the Vale.

So that's why House Grafton's motto is "Just do it"?!!

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Those Tullys being named after the damn Muppets. It's just too much, you can't put it out of your mind. It's like Tolkien naming Rivendell 'Elfland' or something.

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Less info about what Dany's breasts are up to- especially not from her perspective. Dany wouldn't notice and wouldn't care!! Therefore it's kinda bad writing. Once searched for the word "breasts" on kindle and it came up in her chapters way to many times. In general less information about (random) female characters' breasts- there are more interesting aspects about peoples' looks.

Figuring something out with the ages of the younger characters or less sexualization of underage girls, especially not at age 12, 13, 14. IMO it's also not needed for the story for all of these old dudes to be attracted to very young girls. Or at least to portray it in a more critical and less sexualized manner.

Get rid of any non-platonic undertones in Sansa's and Sandor's dynamic. I don't think it's what their dynamic is based on. It's just not needed to make it meaningful. And therefore it just feels like an unnecessary distraction from the more interesting/more important elements of their relationship. IMO if it will be eventually important to the story it could have been introduced later on, if not it's just an unnecessary distraction. (also is the message supposed to be men only help/support young girls, if they are also sexually attracted to them? Because that seems to be the pattern for Dany and Sansa)

If GRRM's goal was to make the dynamic more problematic, it's also not needed for that either- it's still problematic enough without these undertones.

I also wish, that Jorah wasn't attracted to Dany- would make their relationship more interesting. And again you could find other more interesting ways to make it twisted, problematic, if that's the goal. Wouldn't it be nice for Dany to have one man on her side, who isn't attracted to her?

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Posted (edited)

The ages of the main characters.

Marriages involving 13 year old brides have no place or precedent in medieval Europe. As a matter of fact, most of the world doesn't even deem it as acceptable. It is wiser and more valuable to have a 16-17 year old bride; it's another to have girls who are 12-13 years old be presented as brides and wives. I understand that Sansa's marriage to Tyrion Lannister is an abhorrently cruel act of war (and frankly, an act of genocide) but Dany's marriage to Drogo was established to be a normal marriage of a Dothraki khal to a foreign woman with a good name. I don't care if Drogo is the youngest Dothraki khal in ______ years, it was absurdly unrealistic for a 13 year old girl to be ceremoniously married into a foreign culture and then immediately expected to bear children....WITH NO EDUCATION!!! A khaleesi is practically a queen. Why is a new queen taught how to speak the language and culture of her husband and how please her husband after she is already married? LOL what?!

And as high as the mortality rate of pregnant full-grown women and their newborn/unborn children, one would think that they would know better. Or at least know enough to recognize that their interests are far better served if the girl is in her late teens at the earliest.

There are cultures in third-world countries that do that sort of thing and nobody in that country even likes it. Most people within that culture don't even like it.

It goes for the boys too. Like there is absolutely no reason for Joffrey (a Crown Prince and then king no less) to be pressured into marrying any girl at 13 years old. Much less Tommen who is like 8. Absolutely no reason. Isn't the whole point of it all was to link younger women with older men. Older men because they are more likely to have gained maturity, experience, respect and power and the ability to actually impregnate their wives and younger women so that their biological clock can be maximized. Jaehaerys I waited until the age of majority to get married and people still complained that it was much too soon. Aegon III and Jaehaera were both hitched before the age of 12 and people -- while acknowledging that thought it was done out of necessity in order to bring a very bloody, ugly civil war to an end -- still found it to be deeply unpleasant.

Not only that. But Bran is 7 year old. Can most people clearly remember being 7 years old? Even your brightest, most well-behaved and your oldest of old souls 7 year olds are still 7 years olds. They have only just begun to learn what the world is, much less how they are to fit in. In the medieval world, 7 years old isn't even old enough to be fostered away. 7 year olds have no value in apprenticeships; you'd spend more of your time raising them, than actually teaching them how to do the job. Even in the ancient world, 7 years old is when the Spartans -- as cold, harsh and borderline barbaric as they were -- would BEGIN training the male youth at age 7....not the age where male youth are thrusted into battle and given responsibility. Yet, Bran is expected to be the Stark in Winterfell and beccome Bloodraven's successor as this powerful greenseer. He can barely even knows how to keep his body clean.

And what adult in any time or place would okay 14-15 year old boy running for election and winning said election...and then lording over them in an ill-advised fashion. Much less in a institution that has more in common with a prison than with an army. I like Jon and Robb but dang.

The ages, the ages, the ages...it's hard for me to cope.

I automatically age every single character up by at least 3 years in the books in my head. Robert's Rebellion took place 18 years before the start of the series, not 15. That's my head canon.

On 5/30/2020 at 1:15 PM, punzerknacker said:

oh and i always wondered why tyrion and brienne, two characters who are already considered 'ugly' by westerosi society in general, need to be further disfigured in the course of the story. with someone like jaime it's interesting to have him maimed because he has been considered handsome thus far. but why make the already "ugly" ones even "uglier"

Very good point.

That's one thing the show got right.

On 5/30/2020 at 12:02 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

Maester Aemon living just a bit longer so he could meet dragons. :crying:

Re-quoted for emphasis.

Even if he met Dany just a few moments before dying, I really wanted them to meet.

Edited by BlackLightning

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2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The ages of the main characters.

Marriages involving 13 year old brides have no place or precedent in medieval Europe. As a matter of fact, most of the world doesn't even deem it as acceptable. It is wiser and more valuable to have a 16-17 year old bride; it's another to have girls who are 12-13 years old be presented as brides and wives. I understand that Sansa's marriage to Tyrion Lannister is an abhorrently cruel act of war (and frankly, an act of genocide) but Dany's marriage to Drogo was established to be a normal marriage of a Dothraki khal to a foreign woman with a good name. I don't know if Drogo is the youngest Dothraki khal in ______ years, it was absurdly unrealistic for a 13 year old girl to be ceremoniously married into a foreign culture and then immediately expected to bear children. As high as the mortality rate of pregnant women and newborn/unborn children, one would think that they would know better. Or at least know enough to recognize that their interests are far better served if the girl is in her late teens at the earliest.

It goes for the boys too. Like there is absolutely no reason for Joffrey (a Crown Prince and then king no less) to be pressured into marrying any girl at 13 years old. Much less Tommen who is like 8. Absolutely no reason. Isn't the whole point of it all was to link younger women with older men. Older men because they are more likely to have gained maturity, experience, respect and power and the ability to actually impregnate their wives and younger women so that their biological clock can be maximized. Jaehaerys I waited until the age of majority to get married and people still complained that it was much too soon. Aegon III and Jaehaera were both hitched before the age of 12 and people -- while acknowledging that thought it was done out of necessity in order to bring a very bloody, ugly civil war to an end -- still found it to be deeply unpleasant.

Not only that. But Bran is 7 year old. Can most people clearly remember being 7 years old? Even your brightest, most well-behaved and your oldest of old souls 7 year olds are still 7 years olds. They have only just begun to learn what the world is, much less how they are to fit in. In the medieval world, 7 years old isn't even old enough to be fostered away. 7 year olds have no value in apprenticeships; you'd spend more of your time raising them, than actually teaching them how to do the job. Even in the ancient world, 7 years old is when the Spartans -- as cold, harsh and borderline barbaric as they were -- would BEGIN training the male youth at age 7....not the age where male youth are thrusted into battle and given responsibility. Yet, Bran is expected to be the Stark in Winterfell and beccome Bloodraven's successor as this powerful greenseer. He can barely even knows how to keep his body clean.

And what adult in any time or place would okay 14-15 year old boy running for election and winning said election...and then lording over them in an ill-advised fashion. Much less in a institution that has more in common with a prison than with an army. I like Jon and Robb but dang.

The ages, the ages....

I automatically age every single young character up by at least 3 years in the books in my head. Robert's Rebellion took place 18 years before the start of the series, not 15.

Very good point.

That's one thing the show got right.

Re-quoted for emphasis.

Even if he met Dany just a few moments before dying, I really wanted them to meet.

Honestly I think the kids being/staying that young is a side-effect of gardening. GRRM said before he initially intended for the young characters to grow up during the story. But yeah it's no explanation for Dany's marriage. And I don't think the right solution to that problem should have been necessarily to just normalize it within Westeros for no logical reason.

Marrying Dany to Drogo and as you say, expecting her to be able to bear children right away is really stupid on Viserys' and also Drogo's part. 

But the same goes for Tywin and Tyrion with Sansa. I never really understood, what Tywin's goal was. When Tyrion argues before the marriage, that Sansa is a child, Tywin states it's just about the consummation and after Tyrion "can wait a couple of years", from their pov politically that would make sense. But the next time they talk Tywin tells Tyrion Sansa needs to get with child asap. The man, who lost his own wife in childbed, thinks it's a clever idea to impregnate a not even 13 year old valuable political pawn, the only, who'll give them access to the north? And Tyrion, who has quite a bit of trauma connected to "having killed" his mother during his birth doesn't think to bring that up either, not even to use as a counterargument against his father? Bit weird.

There were however quite a few boy-kings throughout history.

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On 5/30/2020 at 9:33 AM, Lollygag said:

About his motive to impress Robert, Robert would never know anyhow.

I absolutely agree with that, which is why it seems odd that Tyrion/Jaime don't even think about that.

Quote

Then we hear that he and Joff were never close, he cried as a baby when Robert held him, being beaten, and then there's this in the first Sansa chapter of ACOK:

Joffrey doesn't remember being a baby, and their lack of closeness is part of Joffrey's theorized motive (a "pat on the head" from a distant father).

Quote

"What loss?"

 

"Your royal father? A large fierce man with a black beard; you'll recall him if you try. He was king before you."

"Oh, him. Yes, it was very sad, a boar killed him."

To be fair to Joffrey, after first bringing up Sansa he probably was confused by Tyrion going back to something earlier and (in Joffrey's mind) unrelated, particularly as Robert was killed by a boar rather than a human (unlike Ned Stark). Later on when Joffrey rebukes Tywin compared to Robert and insists "a king must be bold" citing him, we get the impression Joffrey did look up to Robert.

Quote

Bran's attempted murder and Jon Arryn's murder are often discussed in tandem, and while we got a clean and believable full explanation for Jon Arryn, we got nonsensical murk about Bran. He has Tyrion and Jaime chew on who tried to kill Bran and they often reach wrong conclusion and it all just never adds up.

But why do they both reach the SAME conclusion on such weak evidence? It seems to me like GRRM was trying to tell the audience to believe them.

Quote

The attempted murder of Bran required some stealth and intelligence, especially in Winterfell with which Joff was unfamiliar and we're told over and over and over that Joff had massive impulse control issues and wasn't very smart at all.

Perhaps GRRM hadn't initially planned for Joffrey to be responsible, particularly as Jaime became a more sympathetic character. He defends himself against the accusation of sending the catspaw by insisting he'd do his killing himself, but in AGOT when he goes after Ned's men he just sits back and lets his goons handle it.

Quote

So, it was as just as GRRM said, but Joff had help and it's too spoilery to reveal yet. He was vocal about his hostility towards Bran so someone overhearing and offering to help is built into the story.

I thought he was hostile toward Robb, which is why Catelyn wanted Bran sent along with them to bridge the gap.

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7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Marriages involving 13 year old brides have no place or precedent in medieval Europe. As a matter of fact, most of the world doesn't even deem it as acceptable. [...]

It was absurdly unrealistic for a 13 year old girl to be ceremoniously married into a foreign culture and then immediately expected to bear children. As high as the mortality rate of pregnant women and newborn/unborn children, one would think that they would know better. Or at least know enough to recognize that their interests are far better served if the girl is in her late teens at the earliest.

It goes for the boys too. Like there is absolutely no reason for Joffrey (a Crown Prince and then king no less) to be pressured into marrying any girl at 13 years old. Much less Tommen who is like 8. Absolutely no reason.[...]

Not only that. But Bran is 7 year old. Can most people clearly remember being 7 years old? Even your brightest, most well-behaved and your oldest of old souls 7 year olds are still 7 years olds. They have only just begun to learn what the world is, much less how they are to fit in. In the medieval world, 7 years old isn't even old enough to be fostered away. 7 year olds have no value in apprenticeships; you'd spend more of your time raising them, than actually teaching them how to do the job. Even in the ancient world, 7 years old is when the Spartans -- as cold, harsh and borderline barbaric as they were -- would BEGIN training the male youth at age 7....not the age where male youth are thrusted into battle and given responsibility. Yet, Bran is expected to be the Stark in Winterfell and beccome Bloodraven's successor as this powerful greenseer. He can barely even knows how to keep his body clean.

The marriages at that a young age are not that uncommon, albeit it is absurd for them to be consummated (Romans tended to marry very young, and it also was a tradition in parts of Jewish mediaeval culture; and there are a couple of political marriages in which bride or/and groom were very young), but bride and groom would live like brother and sister (or guardian and ward - if they even lived together!) for at least three, four years (if they are married at thirteen, in Tommen's case it would be like ... eight years?), because of the reasons you stated, but also because, even if they could be married away, they were still considered children. That's what bugs me, even for Jon and Robb and the likes: A fifteen years old in mediaeval context is a boy, he might be the (future) crowned and anointed king and emperor, but he is a boy. He may throw a tantrum, not wanting to marry a twenty-five years old widow, but he will do as his custodians say. End of story.

And don't let me start with Joffrey... If a fourteen years old king tells you to do something abhorrent - you go to his tutors and custodians, you don't beat a highborn lady bloody. It's not something your Lord Commander has to explain to you as a knight, it is something you simple do, because the king is a minor.

And Bran... I wholeheartedly agree.

As you say: Even the Spartans would just begin with their training at that young an age. As for the mediaeval Ages, we have an example of someone who, by all account, might have not only bordered on genius (Bran is far away from that level), but what did Friedrich II of Hohenstaufen do at age 7? Holding court or audiences? No, he was tutored and educated - and ran away to play in the street, whenever he could. Because a seven years old is a seven years old. :dunno:

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10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The ages of the main characters.

Marriages involving 13 year old brides have no place or precedent in medieval Europe. As a matter of fact, most of the world doesn't even deem it as acceptable. It is wiser and more valuable to have a 16-17 year old bride; it's another to have girls who are 12-13 years old be presented as brides and wives.

But it is actual accuracy. Edgar Allan Poe was 27 years old and marry his 13 years old cousin.

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Posted (edited)

There is one small thing I would like to change : no shipwreck of Steffon's and Cassana's ship, so they returned to Storm's End safe and alive.

This tiny change will make a huge difference. Steffon, as closest and most trusted Aerys's friend will help keep him in check and will balance his relationship with Tywin, so they will not fell out after Defiance of Duskendale, which also mean that marriage of Rhaegar with Cersei probably would have happened and Jaime wouldn't summoned to the Kingsguard, if there will be no reason for Aerys to spite Tywin.

All those variables will shift the whole plot of the ASoIaF : Cersei will have at least three Rhaegar's children (his three heads), so he wouldn't have a justification to run away with younger girl, while hiding behind his silly prophecy; Jaime probably will be married to Lysa Tully (or some daughter of Tywin's vassal. Because there also a likely scenario where Lysa are married to Elbert Arryn, heir of Jon Arryn, which is make her less bitter or crazy). 

Okay, I think it's possible that there will be a secret romance between Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, even few potential bastards are plausible. Still, it will not effect particular scenario, considering that the kids will probably will look like Lyanna - "the seed is strong".

Everybody is alive, everything is fine and everyone is happy. Drago-lion Aegon, with the help of Tywin, will easily defeat the Others and Westeros will enter in the new age of stability and prosperity.

 

 
Edited by Malgoth

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I would have Jaqen’s behaviour line up more with the explanation Arya gets of what the FM are. I’m convinced the FM were involved in the Doom and founding of Bravos but their inconsistencies prevent me from forming a solid theory. 
There are some inconsistencies in the first book that could also go 

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11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I automatically age every single young character up by at least 3 years in the books in my head. Robert's Rebellion took place 18 years before the start of the series, not 15.

I totally agree with you on that, the young characters are far too young and it is not realistic, the show did a great job by aging up the youngest. In doing so, it would have change the entire plot, but I think it's for the best. Not major changes for Jon, Robb and Dany who would be in adulthood, but a big one for Sansa who would have 15 yo. In this case, Joffrey would marry her when they would arrive at King's Landing, to father Lannister/Stark kids and have a claim on Winterfell just like GRRM's original plan.  The Tyrell's twist would conclude with the marriage of Margaery/Tommen and Joffrey's death by poisoning.

For Dany's plot, I would have made her propose an alternative to slavery, not just abolish it because "this is bad and I'm a good queen so I have to put an end to it". Oh and stop the overexposure of incest, this is just disgusting and it doesn't make any sense to not have fertility issues with this kind of interbreeding. House Velaryon and House Celtigar would be dragonlords, breed with Targaryens for the blood purity thing and just keep the twincest for the main plot.

All the other elements remain unaffected.

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2 hours ago, ThotKiller said:

But it is actual accuracy. Edgar Allan Poe was 27 years old and marry his 13 years old cousin.

Throughout history there was always someone, who married his 13 year old cousin, but it was never the norm in Europe. That's just a very persistent misconception. For sure not in the 19th century, where the rule of thumb was actually to never marry someone, who is younger, than half your age plus added 7 years.

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