Who else could Stannis have married?

[frenin]

50 minutes ago, James Steller said:

There’s a difference between stating facts and using them to spin a narrative. It’s clear which one Canon Claude is doing. Stannis is NOT an incel just because he’s a forgotten middle child with an awkward social manner. If anything, Stannis is a progressive by Westerosi standards. How many other leaders in that universe geld their own followers for raping women? This is a world where the queen of the Seven Kingdoms had to make a long argument to her husband in order to remove First Night rights. And for the record, Stannis trying to ban brothels doesn’t necessarily make him an incel. A prude, sure, but I also have a feeling that his animosity with Petyr Baelish was a big motivator for that as well. 

I would not call him progressive, the man has a lot of issues with women. i don't know it's the kind of things Ned would do. Stannis banned the prostitues also in Dragonstone tho, i doubt that LF had much to do with it. I don't believe that Stannis is an incel per se but...

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, James Steller said:

There’s a difference between stating facts and using them to spin a narrative. It’s clear which one Canon Claude is doing. Stannis is NOT an incel just because he’s a forgotten middle child with an awkward social manner. If anything, Stannis is a progressive by Westerosi standards. How many other leaders in that universe geld their own followers for raping women? This is a world where the queen of the Seven Kingdoms had to make a long argument to her husband in order to remove First Night rights. And for the record, Stannis trying to ban brothels doesn’t necessarily make him an incel. A prude, sure, but I also have a feeling that his animosity with Petyr Baelish was a big motivator for that as well. 

There are quite a few reasons why Stannis is labelled an incel, the most damning one is this quote from Asha in ADWD;

 

But there was no explaining such things to Stannis Baratheon. Her very womanhood seemed to offend him. Men from the green lands liked their women soft and sweet in silk, she knew, not clad in mail and leather with a throwing axe in each hand. But her short acquaintance with the king at Deepwood Motte convinced her that he would have been no more fond of her in a gown. Even with Galbart Glover's wife, the pious Lady Sybelle, he had been correct and courteous but plainly uncomfortable. This southron king seemed to be one of those men to whom women are another race, as strange and unfathomable as giants and grumkins and the children of the forest. The She-Bear made him grind his teeth as well.

 

Of course a term like incel has a become a subjective insult, with some people using it to characterize certain ideas. Amongst them is a dislike of women, which Stannis certainly falls into plus an idea of entitlement, a certain amount of self loathing and being misanthropic in general.

He is the character in the series who most resembles an incel, though Tyrion comes close. But given that the term has only really caught on since 4chan became a part of the zeitgeist I doubt GRRM had that term in mind when writing either character. Their resemblance to incels, at least before ADWD, was never intentional.

 

[Bernie Mac]

8 hours ago, Vaith said:

One problem when trying to figure this out is that we do not know all wives or adult sisters of lords, so while there are likely more women in Stannis's age range, they haven't been relevant to the story so far.

• In the North, I suppose there would be Barbrey Dustin, a young widow at that time. But Barrowton might not really be important enough for the king's brother, and I don't know if Barbrey would want to leave the castle that she'd begun to rule, anyway.
• Asha is indeed a possibility, but there are a few factors stacking against her. She is a child, and the Greyjoys are the most frowned down upon of the great houses. The Greyjoys dallied in the war, so it would neither reward an ally, nor make an alliance with the loyalists who had bent the knee.
• The only unwed Riverwomen known to be of an age with Stannis are the lesser Frey daughters. Maybe the Fair Maid of Harrenhal was still alive at this time? That'd really be one of the few non-Tully Riverlands houses worth considering. 
• The only women in the Vale who might be of an age with Stannis are the nameless daughters of Lady Waynwood. Given Harry the Heir's age, it seems that all of Alys Arryn's daughters would have been married off by the war's end.
• The westerlands probably aren't considering because you're putting all your alliance eggs in the same basket, given Robert's marriage to Cersei.
• In the Reach, yes, Lynesse Hightower is really the only possible option who hadn't already been married. 
• In the Stormlands, perhaps Ravella Swann had not wed Lord Smallwood yet. However, that option may be seen as insular and not expanding the new royal house's connections to the whole realm.
• In Dorne, perhaps Ynys Yronwood would be a suitable possibility.

So the main candidates are Ynys Yronwood, Lynesse Hightower, Selyse Florent or Ravella Swann. 

I am guessing that for whatever reason Robert and his advisors thought an alliance with a Reach house would be the best to mend grievances with the loyalists, but perhaps not add to the problems with the Tyrell-Hightower balance of power, and thus Selyse was chosen, even as a mere niece of a lord.

 

Most of those options are no better than Selyse Florent.

 

16 hours ago, James Steller said:

You cannot convince me that Stannis would have chosen Selyse Florent as a bride. Stannis can’t stand her, and even for a man who is nervous around women, he seems incredibly hostile towards her. I wouldn’t be surprised if Robert and Jon Arryn basically persuaded Stannis to marry Selyse as a matter of duty to the realm. Robert then adds insult to injury by drunkenly ruining his brother’s marriage bed. 

Apart from Melisandre, the woman who has told him he will be the king who saves the world, what women does Stannis tolerate?

How does he seem any more hostile towards her than he has with every other noble woman he has interacted with?

[Lord Varys]

Stannis definitely loves/desires Melisandre and enjoys sex with her. She is the only woman who is allowed to touch him, the only woman he suffers in his presence without being awkward and weird, and the only woman whose advice he listens to. That they continue to have sex or at least be as intimate as lovers would is made clear by Mel's line in ADwD. And it was clear even before that. Stannis fathered those two shadow assassins, Mel was in Stannis' tent like Loras hung out in Renly's, after the Blackwater Stannis spent days with Mel in private seclusion, etc.

We don't know why exactly that is but we can be very sure that Melisandre stunning beauty would have a lot to do with that. And considering Stannis' repressive, warped personality a gorgeous woman viewing him - not Renly and not Robert! - as the savior of the world is something that should be really massaging his ego and help him with his repressed ambition issues. I don't think he is all that confortable admitting that he lusts after Melisandre - just as he would have like bite off his tongue before admitting he jerked off the the mental image of Cersei (as I imagine he has) - but the fact that she also desires him as this savior of hers would have helped with start this 'relationship' they have.

One could also imagine that the whole religious shenanigans should help Stannis with all that - Mel selling him sex and emotional comfort and intimacy as something she as priestess of R'hllor has to offer Azor Ahai Reborn, etc. Stannis would likely never agree to take on 'an official or informal mistress' - but within the religious framework this kind of shady and unsavory stuff seems to be acceptable to him.

[The Merling King]

I think its widely speculated that Jon Arryn and Robert arranged the marriage with Selyse Florent to send a message to the remaining loyalists specifically the Tyrells, that if they don't get with the new regime they can be replaced. I have read previous posts arguing how powerful the Florents are within the Reach with there claim to Highgarden and the 2k men they gave Stannis, but most Reacher houses have a claim to Highgarden and they are not as powerful as the Hightowers or Redwynes and probably beneath the Rowans and Tarly's at least in the current political scene.

As mentioned this was probably a little aggressive and the Baratheon regime seems to have fully accepted the Tyrells into the fold by the start of GOT, Robert talks to Ned about Highgarden on the way to Kingslanding and Littlefinger confirms the Tyrells are among the crowns lenders. I have heard other people claim that Jon Arryn killed two birds by marrying the kings brother to the biggest rival of the most powerful lord in the realm(when they have full Reach support, which they seem to have at start of the first book) and also preventing that said kings brother from rebelling as the Tyrells would not want a Florent as queen.

With that said, Stannis had several better options especially if the crown wanted a Reach marriage, I'm sure that one of Leyton Hightowers daughters was single and of marrying age and we don't know when Jana Tyrell married Jon Fossaway. I would have picked at Hightower and it would have sent a less aggressive message by making the Baratheons, Hightowers, Tyrells and subsequently the Redwynes all tied through marriage and eliminating any Targaryen support from the Reach's big 3. This would put Stannis in a much better position as he would no longer be the overshadowed, underdog of the kings fighting for the throne.  It could potentially also have eliminated Renly's powerbase in the Reach and even if the Stormlords stayed loyal to him, would Renly or the Stormlords rebel if they knew Stannis had the largest fleet and land army in Westeros? A hightower wife might give Stannis a son who could be a potential match for his cousin Margery but even if Stannis only has Shireen with a Hightower or Tyrell wife, he would have much more support then the Florents could provide. 

One alternative would be a Narrow Sea woman from his own domain, The crown made Stannis lord of Dragonstone for two reasons, he was Roberts direct heir at the start of his reign and they needed someone to control the Targaryen loyalist Narrow Sea lords. The Valeryons might have been a good match for symobolic reasons, bringing the two Targaryen"cadet" branches together,  if they had someone available , we only know of Monford, Monterys and Aurane but Monford could have had a sister around the age of Stannis .

[Minsc]

On 5/30/2020 at 12:09 AM, James Steller said:

You cannot convince me that Stannis would have chosen Selyse Florent as a bride. Stannis can’t stand her, and even for a man who is nervous around women, he seems incredibly hostile towards her. I wouldn’t be surprised if Robert and Jon Arryn basically persuaded Stannis to marry Selyse as a matter of duty to the realm. Robert then adds insult to injury by drunkenly ruining his brother’s marriage bed. 

If Robert had made Stannis marry Selyse than we would have been subject to various paragraphs of Stannis complaining about that fact. 

[Darth Sidious]

On 5/29/2020 at 11:32 PM, James Steller said:

I posted earlier that I wish Stannis had been married to someone other than Selyse Florent. But then that made me wonder who was an available bride-to-be at the time. I know the wedding happened in 286 or 287, but I can’t remember everyone who would have been eligible to marry the younger brother of the king and Master of Ships (I bring that up to point out his status as a bachelor, I doubt he’d be ignored as an option). 
 

Lynesse Hightower would have likely been old enough to marry Stannis in 286/287. There’s also Jonelle Cerwyn, Dacey Mormont, Shiera Crakehall, anyone else? Surely there was a better option than the daughter of a minor branch of House Florent...

House Frey have no shortage of daughters.  Walder would have made Stannis a rich man.  

[Bernie Mac]

39 minutes ago, Minsc said:

If Robert had made Stannis marry Selyse than he would have been subject to various paragraphs of Stannis complaining about that fact. 

That is actually a great point.

 

[Endymion I Targaryen]

Selyse is a good match but Lynesse Hightower seems better. I guess it would be a more aggresive message to Tyrells if their most powerful bannerman gets a royal wedding and why not one of their offspring get Highgarden?

[The Merling King]

6 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Selyse is a good match but Lynesse Hightower seems better. I guess it would be a more aggresive message to Tyrells if their most powerful bannerman gets a royal wedding and why not one of their offspring get Highgarden?

Mace is married to the daughter of lord Hightower and the sister of Lyness. The crown probably thought the Hightowers and Redwyne would not be as eager to overthrow there overlords as the Florents.

[Bernie Mac]

11 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Selyse is a good match but Lynesse Hightower seems better. I guess it would be a more aggresive message to Tyrells if their most powerful bannerman gets a royal wedding and why not one of their offspring get Highgarden?

Lynesse would have been 14/15 when Stannis was married, so maybe a suitable age.

 

But we have no idea how Hightower - Baratheon relations were at that point. She may not have been an option to some lingering bad blood or even the Hightowers not waning to make that kind of alliance to a fairly new dynasty.

Robert's crown at the start of the series or even after the Greyjoy Rebellion will have been far more secure than it was in the years after Robert's Rebellion.

Robert was in need of strategic alliances and heirs. He may not have had time to hope for the Tyrells or Hightowers to come round

 

[Darth Sidious]

On 5/29/2020 at 11:32 PM, James Steller said:

I posted earlier that I wish Stannis had been married to someone other than Selyse Florent. But then that made me wonder who was an available bride-to-be at the time. I know the wedding happened in 286 or 287, but I can’t remember everyone who would have been eligible to marry the younger brother of the king and Master of Ships (I bring that up to point out his status as a bachelor, I doubt he’d be ignored as an option). 
 

Lynesse Hightower would have likely been old enough to marry Stannis in 286/287. There’s also Jonelle Cerwyn, Dacey Mormont, Shiera Crakehall, anyone else? Surely there was a better option than the daughter of a minor branch of House Florent...

It would have made little to no difference.  Stannis is a strong man who makes his own decisions.  We cannot put blame on Selyse for what Stannis has become.  He is what he is.  

His stock rose after the rebels won.  The choices for wife is wide open.  Still there were hard feelings remaining.  Wounds are still raw to pick a bride from one of the Targaryen Supporters.  Feelings drive the political views.  The Tyrells, Hightowers, Martells, and Greyjoys would have made for an awkward in-laws.