Fury Resurrected Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 49 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I'd love to. Not licensed in Minnesota. Damnit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 18 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said: Damnit Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbigski Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I saw this yesterday. They can push you onto your property but they do not have the power to force you to remain inside your house. Your front porch is "inside" for purposes of a curfew. Sweet summer child. Push comes to shove, the establishment has as much power as the people and better organization. So your right to stay on your own porch in practice is theoretical. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Minorities need the 2nd amendment most of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, mcbigski said: Sweet summer child. Push comes to shove, the establishment has as much power as the people and better organization. So your right to stay on your own porch in practice is theoretical. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Minorities need the 2nd amendment most of all. So, are you cool with police shooting people who are sitting on their own front porches? Who are doing nothing more than enjoying an evening on their own property? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 14 minutes ago, mcbigski said: Sweet summer child. Push comes to shove, the establishment has as much power as the people and better organization. So your right to stay on your own porch in practice is theoretical. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Minorities need the 2nd amendment most of all. ... Do you read what you write? Cause if the right to literally just exist on your own property is theoretical, what does that make the 2A? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, TrueMetis said: ... Do you read what you write? Cause if the right to literally just exist on your own property is theoretical, what does that make the 2A? Indeed. mcbigski, You statement is an “appeal to force” fallacy. Just because it can be done doesn’t make it proper or just that it has been done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbigski Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 14 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: So, are you cool with police shooting people who are sitting on their own front porches? Who are doing nothing more than enjoying an evening on their own property? Not at all, but the government, specifically police branch, is over powered and will kill you for threatening them. And really, you know that wasnt the argument I was making. Ultimately police are only people too. They should be trained with a bias towards restraint but even so are going to end in impossible situations. But when they're wrong, they should be held accountable. "soverign immunity" is bullshit in a socieity of equals. I was referring more towards the practical rather than theoritical in my response to your post though Ser Scot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, mcbigski said: Not at all, but the government, specifically police branch, is over powered and will kill you for threatening them. And really, you know that wasnt the argument I was making. Ultimately police are only people too. They should be trained with a bias towards restraint but even so are going to end in impossible situations. But when they're wrong, they should be held accountable. "soverign immunity" is bullshit in a socieity of equals. I was referring more towards the practical rather than theoritical in my response to your post though Ser Scot. Antagonizing armed and armored people is usually a poor plan. Regardless, Sometimes it is necessary to stand up to the State when it abuses its power. Police shooting people for sitting on their front porch doing nothing to violate a curfew order is one of those times in my earnest opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbigski Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Antagonizing armed and armored people is usually a poor plan. Regardless, Sometimes it is necessary to stand up to the State when it abuses its power. Police shooting people for sitting on their front porch doing nothing to violate a curfew order is one of those times in my earnest opinion. I agree with that. TBH I think I lost the thread here, but I also think shooting back in that case isnt in any way a violation. If the facts are as stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 I think it's pretty clear that the response to shooting back wouldn't work out in your favor, especially if you're a black person. I'm pretty sure there's someone being charged for shooting a cop when the cops broke in without identifying themselves at the moment, it's not like you get the same standard they get for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 16 minutes ago, karaddin said: I think it's pretty clear that the response to shooting back wouldn't work out in your favor, especially if you're a black person. I'm pretty sure there's someone being charged for shooting a cop when the cops broke in without identifying themselves at the moment, it's not like you get the same standard they get for themselves. That’s the Louisville case from March where police killed a woman while serving a “no knock” warrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbigski Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 26 minutes ago, karaddin said: I think it's pretty clear that the response to shooting back wouldn't work out in your favor, especially if you're a black person. I'm pretty sure there's someone being charged for shooting a cop when the cops broke in without identifying themselves at the moment, it's not like you get the same standard they get for themselves. I think the cops breaking in in the middle of the night without announcing themselves is a gross violation. If they can storm 6 guys through the front the door without a warning and kill anyone who who resists a fucking home invasion, they could deploy to cover the back exit. Gross violation. I get that law enforcement is a shitty job in a lot of circumstances, but where the presumption of innocence could be a safety violation, maybe dont storm in at two AM on a no knock warrant trigger happy with guns drawn? Stake the place out over night and wait until someone leaves and there's a whole less adrenaline? I think karaddin we can find some common ground here. Really, when I think about SWAT type raids, if they are there on their own initiative how is storming a place better than a siege and negotiation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Week Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 For posterity, Boston protests (two today - 3pm and 630pm) were wholly peaceful until police escalated (what an odd coincidence with every other protest against police brutality and lack of accountability). https://mobile.twitter.com/ImHypnotiik/status/1267290063311953920 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 53 minutes ago, karaddin said: I think it's pretty clear that the response to shooting back wouldn't work out in your favor, especially if you're a black person. I'm pretty sure there's someone being charged for shooting a cop when the cops broke in without identifying themselves at the moment, it's not like you get the same standard they get for themselves. Yeah when we have people dressed up like they want to be cast in the next Red Dawn movie, and armed, in one month; then in the next month the police decide to shoot at people deigning to protest against the iniquitous racism of the past four hundred years - it's a really fucking dumb comparison. Nonwhite people get shot. Now Trump's extended that to the media. What's next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 2 hours ago, mcbigski said: I think the cops breaking in in the middle of the night without announcing themselves is a gross violation. If they can storm 6 guys through the front the door without a warning and kill anyone who who resists a fucking home invasion, they could deploy to cover the back exit. Gross violation. I get that law enforcement is a shitty job in a lot of circumstances, but where the presumption of innocence could be a safety violation, maybe dont storm in at two AM on a no knock warrant trigger happy with guns drawn? Stake the place out over night and wait until someone leaves and there's a whole less adrenaline? I think karaddin we can find some common ground here. Really, when I think about SWAT type raids, if they are there on their own initiative how is storming a place better than a siege and negotiation? There's plenty of ground around it that we don't share, but if your society decrees that shooting armed unidentified intruders that break into your house in the middle of the night is ok, then you're damn right that I agree this should apply to defending yourself against police raids that don't identify themselves. We absolutely have that common ground. My disagreement with you here is on the practicalities of how that would be enforced, not what the logical and fair application of your laws should dictate. These scenarios strike me as basically the raison d'etre of the 2nd amendment, not just an unconsidered side effect. ETA: missed a couple of words in that first sentence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Reptitious Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 6 hours ago, mcbigski said: Minorities need the 2nd amendment most of all. Uh, are you encouraging minorities to get armed and start shooting back at the police? Because in the current context that's how it sounds to me. Can you clarify? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 On 5/30/2020 at 9:00 PM, Guy Kilmore said: I have some close friends in the down town area, and another group up by you. Be safe Kay! It makes me wonder how @aceluby and @litechick are doing. Family is ok, but we have a lot of friends in the thick of it. It is really hard for them as they see their neighborhoods destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 10 minutes ago, aceluby said: Family is ok, but we have a lot of friends in the thick of it. It is really hard for them as they see their neighborhoods destroyed. I really hope everyone stays safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 On 5/30/2020 at 9:17 PM, Tywin et al. said: I can't speak to Lite, but I do worry about Ace, as it's fair to say we've become friends over the years here. He has a young kiddo, and his wife is pregnant, and my understanding is they live really close to everything that's breaking down. Thanks Ty, we recently moved to the outer burbs and have a whole swirl of feelings. Fortunate that we're not anywhere near this with our little family, scared for my friends who have nowhere to go, anger at how the police and president keep throwing gas on the fire, sadness for my city and all the people in it as we watch it burn from afar, and helpless. More than anything I feel helpless as I won't do something that will also risk my entire family. I hope this will eventually calm and we can honestly address how awful the police have been throughout this entire ordeal, start to finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Week Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 Twitter thread of police brutality from the last couple days: https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1267459054839967746 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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